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Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 02:27 AM Jan 2015

I'm among the richest 0.35% of people in the world by income. Where do you rank?

Last edited Sat Jan 3, 2015, 12:08 PM - Edit history (1)

The results will probably surprise you.

http://www.globalrichlist.com/

There's a charity appeal beneath that which I don't vouch for one way or the other, just as a warning.

EDIT: in response to a fair point downthread, divide your total household income by your household size when you do this. So, if you make $20K, and your spouse makes $30K, and you have two kids, divide $50K by 4 for $12,500.

154 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I'm among the richest 0.35% of people in the world by income. Where do you rank? (Original Post) Recursion Jan 2015 OP
i guess that's why so many risk their lives to get to places like the US JI7 Jan 2015 #1
Very true (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #2
But it is relative to where you live. Live and Learn Jan 2015 #3
yes, but compared to many of these places it's still easier to get some help JI7 Jan 2015 #4
having recently entered "the system" via meningitis, i can say: no, it's not. i'd be homeless NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #12
I think JI7's point is that, for instance, there's a waiting list to live in Indian slums Recursion Jan 2015 #14
and there's a waiting list to live in a slum here. i don't see the big difference and i'm tired NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #15
you are upset you don't live in a mansion while a black kid is stopped for wearing a hoodie JI7 Jan 2015 #17
live in a mansion? did you even hear me? i'm going to be homeless. i don't give a damn NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #19
you are the one who kept talking about people in mansions JI7 Jan 2015 #21
Post removed Post removed Jan 2015 #27
i am the working class and i make much less than most police officers JI7 Jan 2015 #40
Well if you're comparing us to the Third World, you have a point. But at one time sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #128
It wasn't bad enough here after World War II to require such measures as were needed in Europe. riqster Jan 2015 #151
True. An American poorer than 97% of Americans is richer than 98% of Indians Recursion Jan 2015 #5
Yes, absolutely. The US is the most immigrated to country on the planet. joshcryer Jan 2015 #29
...in the top .5% by income bhikkhu Jan 2015 #6
Yeah, I'm at 7% by assets, I guess because I don't own a house Recursion Jan 2015 #7
How did we do that? RobertEarl Jan 2015 #8
That was the question that got Adam Smith thinking, 238 years ago Recursion Jan 2015 #9
We also threw open the door and invited the best and brightest to come and join the party. MADem Jan 2015 #45
Also a very good point (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #52
Capitalism + military dominance. joshcryer Jan 2015 #23
"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime." ~Balzac (n/t) KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #61
Holy cow.... .011% yeoman6987 Jan 2015 #10
good number samsingh Jan 2015 #80
.037 in assets yeoman6987 Jan 2015 #11
Damn, quite sobering HeiressofBickworth Jan 2015 #13
Higher. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2015 #16
Re: your sig line; A HERETIC I AM Jan 2015 #100
I make $600 a month, which won't even get me a market rent. But I'm apparent in the top NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #18
housing in the US is also better compared to the cheaper housing in many of those poor nations JI7 Jan 2015 #20
jesus christ. yes, and a handful of dirt is better than a handful of shit. so the hell what? NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #25
It's still a lot better than this AZ Progressive Jan 2015 #31
"many of its people don't deserve to live in poverty" = but some do? who "deserves" to live in NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #37
I said it that way because obviously not everyone in America is poor. AZ Progressive Jan 2015 #43
Certainly YOU do not. But some who dont give a shit DO. 7962 Jan 2015 #142
They never want to compare the US to other industrialized countries. Lars39 Jan 2015 #46
Too bad your famiky didn't own slaves. nt Dreamer Tatum Jan 2015 #132
i agree - this is a sham samsingh Jan 2015 #150
Far left liberal Americans don't give a fuck. joshcryer Jan 2015 #22
the thing is this information actually shows that we COULD afford more social programs JI7 Jan 2015 #28
Absolutely. joshcryer Jan 2015 #30
Hell, just fully restore the Clinton-era tax rates Recursion Jan 2015 #35
Yep, you need a Congress to do it. joshcryer Jan 2015 #36
Damn straight. The idea that America is "broke" is absurd. Recursion Jan 2015 #33
At this point America is morally bankrupt csziggy Jan 2015 #148
Poor bankers and 1%ers! Union Scribe Jan 2015 #59
Case in point! joshcryer Jan 2015 #98
Look at the American poor strutting around with their refrigerators! Must be nice! myrna minx Jan 2015 #111
I like to think more about washing machines. joshcryer Jan 2015 #115
Not to mention, you know, drinking water that doesn't give you cholera (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #129
That was a great discussion. It explains a lot. But, he left out mucifer Jan 2015 #137
That happens here too. 7962 Jan 2015 #143
Well this is a dumb exercise in misrepresentation. nt elias49 Jan 2015 #24
How so? (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #26
It doesn't take costs into account for one thing. elias49 Jan 2015 #32
I'll check but I'm pretty sure they use purchasing power parity for this Recursion Jan 2015 #34
you check; i don't see a thing about it. pretty sure my $7000 a year, which won't buy me a NewDeal_Dem Jan 2015 #38
the people in those poor countries can't afford their own place on what many JI7 Jan 2015 #39
The idea of a single-person occupancy just doesn't even make sense in India, for instance Recursion Jan 2015 #126
Thank you RandiFan1290 Jan 2015 #47
I am among the richest 0.57% davidpdx Jan 2015 #41
15.78% hobbit709 Jan 2015 #42
We dropped from .06% to .15% between 2012 and 2013 mnhtnbb Jan 2015 #44
Fuck the TPP RandiFan1290 Jan 2015 #48
Jesus, that's terrifying Prophet 451 Jan 2015 #54
+1, exactly. Marr Jan 2015 #120
By income, top 1.23%. By wealth, top 18.09%. Tobin S. Jan 2015 #49
I'm not putting that here JustAnotherGen Jan 2015 #50
piss on the TPP KG Jan 2015 #51
Yes - WE should take pay cuts only so THEY can get richer. closeupready Jan 2015 #77
Top 4.08% Prophet 451 Jan 2015 #53
fascinating that they include student loans as income zazen Jan 2015 #55
Oh, good. We're comparing America's poor to Djibouti's poor. HughBeaumont Jan 2015 #56
Yep, that's exactly the point of this thread. Union Scribe Jan 2015 #57
What the hell is right wing about pointing out the extent of world poverty? (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #58
Please. You aren't subtle. Union Scribe Jan 2015 #60
But an American poorer than 97% of Americans *is* richer than 98% of Indians: Recursion Jan 2015 #62
Facts are right wing! joshcryer Jan 2015 #106
The message you guys are pushing certainly is. HughBeaumont Jan 2015 #136
Because the comparison you are wanting us to make is US income to third world income. Lars39 Jan 2015 #63
Umm... yes. That's kind of explicitly the comparison I'm making. Recursion Jan 2015 #64
What you are explicitly attempting is to downgrade our expectations of what a healthy first world Lars39 Jan 2015 #67
Our "healthy first world" was built by keeping the Global South this poor Recursion Jan 2015 #68
The comparison should be the US to other industrialized first world countries. Lars39 Jan 2015 #75
Why? Nigerians, Bangladeshis, and Indonesians just don't count? (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #76
They are not first world countries. Lars39 Jan 2015 #90
It's not that they don't count, it's just not a logically sound comparison. HughBeaumont Jan 2015 #93
Yet you shame. joshcryer Jan 2015 #114
???? HughBeaumont Jan 2015 #133
Thank you! smirkymonkey Jan 2015 #134
That is ridiculous. joshcryer Jan 2015 #110
Observation of postings doesn't invalidate the message pushed. Lars39 Jan 2015 #130
Stuart Varney agrees: HughBeaumont Jan 2015 #71
I just posted this up thread. It's unbelievable. myrna minx Jan 2015 #113
I'm hearing it a lot down here in red state hell. Lars39 Jan 2015 #131
More like a logical fallacy . . . . HughBeaumont Jan 2015 #66
Varney's a moron if he makes the "refrigerators" argument Recursion Jan 2015 #73
+1 Marr Jan 2015 #121
The US is the fastest moving disadvantaged children country on the planet. joshcryer Jan 2015 #103
The top 10% is an easy list to make FrodosPet Jan 2015 #65
For Americans? Yes. It's pretty hard not to be in the top 10% globally in the US (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #69
50+ replies and nobody noticed that it's nonsense? FBaggins Jan 2015 #70
Because it's not nonsense. The global 1% income is $34K Recursion Jan 2015 #72
That too is nonsense. FBaggins Jan 2015 #81
I think you're assuming all Americans are workers Recursion Jan 2015 #84
Nope - I gave you the numbers FBaggins Jan 2015 #86
I'm right about that Recursion Jan 2015 #88
It doesn't have anything to do with household size. FBaggins Jan 2015 #89
No. I'm acknowledging the charity is doing some sleight of hand here Recursion Jan 2015 #95
Sleight of hand? FBaggins Jan 2015 #109
Yes! I agree they should do that Recursion Jan 2015 #119
BTW I edited the OP to include more of your point Recursion Jan 2015 #105
Yes, of course US elites are skewed against US income. joshcryer Jan 2015 #74
Maybe that's because it's an argument right wingers make Union Scribe Jan 2015 #78
Don't confuse arguments with statements of fact. FBaggins Jan 2015 #83
The ones on the left side are richer than most of the world Ichingcarpenter Jan 2015 #85
And that's about the size of it FBaggins Jan 2015 #91
.02 - i don't believe it's very accurate samsingh Jan 2015 #79
16.28% jwirr Jan 2015 #82
I'd say what the result is...but then I'd be accused of flaunting... brooklynite Jan 2015 #87
This is definitely not accurate oberliner Jan 2015 #92
They're counting all household members Recursion Jan 2015 #94
There aren't 40 million people in the world making more than 38K per year? oberliner Jan 2015 #112
There aren't 40 million people in households making $34K * household size per year (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #123
I'm in the top 0.61% or 27,490,397th richest person on earth. . . B Calm Jan 2015 #96
I do much better by income than by wealth Recursion Jan 2015 #97
Income can be gone tomorrow! B Calm Jan 2015 #99
So can equity! (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #101
I'll take equity! LOL B Calm Jan 2015 #108
That's the other thing I pointed out FBaggins Jan 2015 #118
This is bullshit. unrepentant progress Jan 2015 #102
144,037,647th femmocrat Jan 2015 #104
I'm effing amazed (and a little humbled/ashamed) tularetom Jan 2015 #107
It's a rigged calculator meant to help push pro-1% propaganda. Marr Jan 2015 #127
+1000 smirkymonkey Jan 2015 #135
It's definitely skewed beyond any sensible meaning William Seger Jan 2015 #141
I tested a few numbers trying to get to the 50% level (for income) delete_bush Jan 2015 #144
Oh, brother. Starry Messenger Jan 2015 #116
You ain't kidding. Hissyspit Jan 2015 #145
5.65% treestar Jan 2015 #117
Ah, the new TPP meme for the day. Guilt. djean111 Jan 2015 #122
When you consider our worst schools in the U.S. TexasMommaWithAHat Jan 2015 #124
And teachers that don't have to shake down students for money every term (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #125
Where does your income rank in terms of India? Gormy Cuss Jan 2015 #138
He works for the US govt Ichingcarpenter Jan 2015 #140
Actually it goes down to about 0.5% Recursion Jan 2015 #147
.08%. I say tax the wealthiest at the rates of the Greatest Generation. Thanks. grahamhgreen Jan 2015 #139
unrec tenderfoot Jan 2015 #146
I won't rank myself against people who are starving (much of that due to Western Imperialism) Rather Luminous Animal Jan 2015 #149
So many callous people here... ClarkeVII Jan 2015 #152
yes, i wonder why people have a problem with this JI7 Jan 2015 #154
The "wealth" option doesn't factor net worth Orrex Jan 2015 #153

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
3. But it is relative to where you live.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 02:39 AM
Jan 2015

You could still be homeless here even if you make a lot more than people with homes in other places.

JI7

(89,249 posts)
4. yes, but compared to many of these places it's still easier to get some help
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 02:45 AM
Jan 2015

in the US.

at the same time we should continue to improve the US for itself. and help other nations .

after the cold war i think we should have had something similar to the marshall plan for all the nations which were affected and where the ground wars in the cold war were played out. like afghanistan.

 

NewDeal_Dem

(1,049 posts)
12. having recently entered "the system" via meningitis, i can say: no, it's not. i'd be homeless
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 04:03 AM
Jan 2015

if I didn't have a relative willing to house me.

5 years waiting list for subsidized housing.

multiple hoops that are difficult for the brain damaged to jump through.

can't drive, so hard to get around.

subsidized half time job = $600 a month, not enough to live on if I lose my housing (my relative)

tell me how easy everything is here in the home of the brave, how privileged I am J17



Recursion

(56,582 posts)
14. I think JI7's point is that, for instance, there's a waiting list to live in Indian slums
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 04:27 AM
Jan 2015

And even to get on that list to be able to build a house out of trash in Dharavi, you have to bribe several local officials and criminals (who are often the same people).

So, yes, as overtaxed and inadequate as they are, the US's social services are miles ahead of most of the world's.

 

NewDeal_Dem

(1,049 posts)
15. and there's a waiting list to live in a slum here. i don't see the big difference and i'm tired
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 04:49 AM
Jan 2015

of being told how privileged I am.

especially when the people who keep telling me about my various privileges (as a white person; as an American) have spent all day slapping me for daring to mention the privilege of actual rich people, and the dubious origins of that privilege.

I survive because of the kindness of an elderly relative. Without that, I'd be homeless and dead within a year.

JI7

(89,249 posts)
17. you are upset you don't live in a mansion while a black kid is stopped for wearing a hoodie
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:01 AM
Jan 2015

and walking down the street.

that's what is meant when white privilege is discussed. nobody said it meant all white people are living in mansions.

 

NewDeal_Dem

(1,049 posts)
19. live in a mansion? did you even hear me? i'm going to be homeless. i don't give a damn
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:08 AM
Jan 2015

about mansions. I'd be happy with an sro; I just don't want to live on the street in my 60s.

I had meningitis. 3 months in the hospital/nursing home. close to death and out of my mind most of that time. I got it from running down my immunity from overwork, physical labor, sweated labor.

and people like you are the reason people like me don't believe in the democratic party anymore. because people like you don't give a damn about people like me -- white, black, yellow or brown.

JI7

(89,249 posts)
21. you are the one who kept talking about people in mansions
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:11 AM
Jan 2015

when i brought up racist cops and the people that killed emmet till.

Response to JI7 (Reply #21)

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
128. Well if you're comparing us to the Third World, you have a point. But at one time
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 12:17 PM
Jan 2015

the US used to be compared to Developed Nations. I don't see, eg, Norwegians 'rushing to get to the US'.

And much of the poverty in Mexico eg, was caused by NAFTA among other things.

Thanks, but I would like to aim for comparison of the US to First World countries.

riqster

(13,986 posts)
151. It wasn't bad enough here after World War II to require such measures as were needed in Europe.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 12:27 PM
Jan 2015

We often forget the genesis of the social safety net that our trans-Atlantic compadres enjoy: neccessity. Things were so bad over there, a more socialist style of government was the only way to avoid a total collapse.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
5. True. An American poorer than 97% of Americans is richer than 98% of Indians
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 02:45 AM
Jan 2015

Basically the entire American income distribution fits within the top 4% of India's income distribution.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
29. Yes, absolutely. The US is the most immigrated to country on the planet.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:16 AM
Jan 2015

A million+ a year. Illegally or legally. Of course, that's why we must hate America, because America is evil.

It is actually kind of sad, because the immigrations are going to take over, and the white liberals who are "oh so concerned" about things like free trade will be rendered moot eventually.

bhikkhu

(10,716 posts)
6. ...in the top .5% by income
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 02:59 AM
Jan 2015

but only top 4% by assets. Interesting and informative, and it definitely makes me appreciate how hard most people in the world have it its no picnic getting by at my level here - I still can't afford to go out to eat, much less manage a car payment!.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
7. Yeah, I'm at 7% by assets, I guess because I don't own a house
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 03:02 AM
Jan 2015

I would say "I have no assets" if you asked me, but obviously that isn't true

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
8. How did we do that?
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 03:15 AM
Jan 2015

How come we are so rich?

Did slavery help? Did hiring cheap labor from overseas make a dif?

Is it because we have overtaken a land rich in resources, moving the previous inhabitants onto reservations, and taking their lands for our own benefit?

How long can we stay rich given that resources are declining in quality and quantity? Are we now taking resources from other lands and other people to keep us rich?

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
9. That was the question that got Adam Smith thinking, 238 years ago
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 03:21 AM
Jan 2015

There's no one simple answer.

On the bright side:
We're a large temperate country oriented east-west, with significant Atlantic and Pacific shoreline and harbors. We have a lot of natural resources (helium, petrolium, natural gas, ores). We have amazing agricultural land. We have governments, nationally and locally, that are very non-corrupt by global standards. We have a strong labor movement that never devolved into a centrally-planned economy. We have relatively progressive taxation (our tax system is more progressive than most EU countries if you count their VAT).

On the dark side:
We have a huge military that we use to get our way. We were the last man standing when Europe burned itself down twice in the 20th century. We were able to expropriate a lot of land on the cheap from low-technology, thinly-populated Native American nations. We enslaved several million people to build this country and its economy early on.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
45. We also threw open the door and invited the best and brightest to come and join the party.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 08:14 AM
Jan 2015

One of our greatest strengths is our population diversity.

HeiressofBickworth

(2,682 posts)
13. Damn, quite sobering
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 04:16 AM
Jan 2015

to think that even on Social Security, I'm in the top 4.19%. It's hard to imagine the lives of people who are in the lowest of the lowest. This calculator is for world-wide status. I'd be interested in seeing calculations within individual countries.

 

NewDeal_Dem

(1,049 posts)
18. I make $600 a month, which won't even get me a market rent. But I'm apparent in the top
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:02 AM
Jan 2015

20% globally.

I think it's a crock, as US money income may be higher than that of poor countries, but so are housing and other costs, which are generally much lower in poor countries (which is why most of their populations aren't homeless, despite being poor)

JI7

(89,249 posts)
20. housing in the US is also better compared to the cheaper housing in many of those poor nations
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:09 AM
Jan 2015

look at what happened during the earthquake in haiti.

 

NewDeal_Dem

(1,049 posts)
25. jesus christ. yes, and a handful of dirt is better than a handful of shit. so the hell what?
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:14 AM
Jan 2015

people like yourself seem happy to celebrate the destruction of the us working class.

"look happy peons, you have it better than poor Haitians!"

But not for long, eh? Main street where I live looks something like this:





AZ Progressive

(3,411 posts)
31. It's still a lot better than this
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:19 AM
Jan 2015


Still, America's a wealthy nation and many of its people don't deserve to live in poverty.
 

NewDeal_Dem

(1,049 posts)
37. "many of its people don't deserve to live in poverty" = but some do? who "deserves" to live in
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:30 AM
Jan 2015

poverty?

and depending on the slum you live in, living in the photo above might be preferable.

AZ Progressive

(3,411 posts)
43. I said it that way because obviously not everyone in America is poor.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 06:27 AM
Jan 2015

Not that there are people in America that deserve to be poor.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
142. Certainly YOU do not. But some who dont give a shit DO.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 02:47 PM
Jan 2015

My late aunt was one of them. She could've had a nice place and nice stuff, but she chose to hang out with crooks and losers and lived half her life in a shack. And she was fine with it! She wasnt crazy, just stubborn as hell.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
22. Far left liberal Americans don't give a fuck.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:12 AM
Jan 2015

Believe me. I browse a website where they talk about bankers and elites and such and don't even realize how utterly wealthy they are in comparison. In fact, I've been called a far right winger for merely pointing out the wealth disparity. Indeed, I've been told that I was trying to make the most wealthy people in the world less wealthy by making the point!

JI7

(89,249 posts)
28. the thing is this information actually shows that we COULD afford more social programs
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:16 AM
Jan 2015

and increase funding for them. and things like safety regulations are NOT hurting us economically but actually do the opposite.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
30. Absolutely.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:18 AM
Jan 2015


Cut back the MIC.

(This image is every single countries' GDP vs the United States, if it isn't obvious.)

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
98. Case in point!
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:30 AM
Jan 2015

I merely allude to the fact that Americans are the most wealthy people on the planet, and here you come along whinging about bankers and the 1% (who are in reality, on the world scheme the top 0.0001%).

Oh, poor Americans, being fleeced by the top 1% of this country! Nevermind we, even our poorest, are in the top 0.1% of the world!

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
129. Not to mention, you know, drinking water that doesn't give you cholera (nt)
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 12:18 PM
Jan 2015

Last edited Sat Jan 3, 2015, 01:28 PM - Edit history (1)

mucifer

(23,542 posts)
137. That was a great discussion. It explains a lot. But, he left out
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 01:36 PM
Jan 2015

meat egg and dairy consumption which also leads to a lot of climate change. It costs a lot of energy to raise animals for food because they require so much grains, or worse yet grass, for them to grow to be big enough to eat. It is much more energy and water efficient to eat the plants directly.

I'm not just making this up . This is coming from recommendations from the UN climate report:

A global shift towards a vegan diet is vital to save the world from hunger, fuel poverty and the worst impacts of climate change, a UN report said today.

As the global population surges towards a predicted 9.1 billion people by 2050, western tastes for diets rich in meat and dairy products are unsustainable, says the report from United Nations Environment Programme's (UNEP) international panel of sustainable resource management.

It says: "Impacts from agriculture are expected to increase substantially due to population growth increasing consumption of animal products. Unlike fossil fuels, it is difficult to look for alternatives: people have to eat. A substantial reduction of impacts would only be possible with a substantial worldwide diet change, away from animal products."

Professor Edgar Hertwich, the lead author of the report, said: "Animal products cause more damage than [producing] construction minerals such as sand or cement, plastics or metals. Biomass and crops for animals are as damaging as [burning] fossil fuels."


http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet
 

7962

(11,841 posts)
143. That happens here too.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 02:51 PM
Jan 2015

Ive been called 'right wing" simply because I advocated ridding the disability system of cheaters. To some, that meant I wanted to do away with the entire system.

 

elias49

(4,259 posts)
32. It doesn't take costs into account for one thing.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:19 AM
Jan 2015

It's like one side of an equation.
Do I earn more than someone living in Borneo? WTH? The word "rich" is a loaded word.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
34. I'll check but I'm pretty sure they use purchasing power parity for this
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:22 AM
Jan 2015

Which does take into account costs of living.

 

NewDeal_Dem

(1,049 posts)
38. you check; i don't see a thing about it. pretty sure my $7000 a year, which won't buy me a
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:36 AM
Jan 2015

place to live in the states, is not in the top 20% globally, unless I get to spend my 7 thou on housing in east fuckistan or somewhere similar. maybe in congo I'd be in the top 20% and could house myself. I certainly wouldn't be in Europe, the middle east, the far east, most of latin America.

Africa is the only place left I might have a chance to survive.

JI7

(89,249 posts)
39. the people in those poor countries can't afford their own place on what many
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 05:43 AM
Jan 2015

of them make either. there are more people within each home compared to the US.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
126. The idea of a single-person occupancy just doesn't even make sense in India, for instance
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 12:15 PM
Jan 2015

(As you no doubt know.)

Even single-family dwellings, in the US nuclear family sense, are quite rare.

mnhtnbb

(31,388 posts)
44. We dropped from .06% to .15% between 2012 and 2013
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 07:15 AM
Jan 2015

when my husband semi-retired. He did go back to working half a day
at a clinic in 2014 so I guess we'll go back up again for 2014.

Still, that's pretty amazing.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
54. Jesus, that's terrifying
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 09:35 AM
Jan 2015

I'll be mailing you the bill for the therapy it'll take to stop me seeing those eyes in my nightmares.

Tobin S.

(10,418 posts)
49. By income, top 1.23%. By wealth, top 18.09%.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 08:37 AM
Jan 2015

They say by wealth is a more accurate measure, but it still really doesn't give you an accurate picture. I'm actually insolvent when you consider all of my debt, which the site does not do. That means that I have a net worth of less than zero.

But I do have a better lifestyle than much of the world, and I am getting the debt under control. I'm sure about 80% of the planet's population would take my debt if they could live like I do.

JustAnotherGen

(31,823 posts)
50. I'm not putting that here
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 08:41 AM
Jan 2015
the results. But I think I've been pretty clear about "how much do you really need?"

I'd like to see a charitable donations including time donated test. I'd bet that even though the Kochs and Devos families have much more than I do - my husband and I are far "wealthier" than they are.

I think we are in the - There but for the grace of selecting the right womb, and the right set of life circumstances and opportunity go I. . . Wealth/Inome bracket.

KG

(28,751 posts)
51. piss on the TPP
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 08:49 AM
Jan 2015

the intertubes are full of condescending mofos that think others should take a pay cut.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
77. Yes - WE should take pay cuts only so THEY can get richer.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:48 AM
Jan 2015

AND, it's often left unsaid, our families should also accept lower and lower standards of living.

zazen

(2,978 posts)
55. fascinating that they include student loans as income
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 09:58 AM
Jan 2015

I appreciate the direction and sentiment of the exercise in fostering gratitude (because student loans kept me fed and gave me great healthcare for a few years), but its focus on redistribution by inducing guilt/charity in the poorest (and indebted) first world individuals rather than on redistribution through tax parity and ending corporate welfare is problematic.

Counting debt as income shifts responsibility to indentured graduates who can not only subtract from their debt but get to call their debt "wealth." Pretty Orwellian.

So this is how non-profits like Care International are going after low-income prospects who since 2008 have increasingly said sorry, I can't give because I'm unemployed or have 120k in student debt or I'm on welfare.

Not sure I appreciate this strategy, though again, reminders to be grateful to have shelter, food, heat, clean water, and relative safety (if you're white) are always helpful, I guess.


HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
56. Oh, good. We're comparing America's poor to Djibouti's poor.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:08 AM
Jan 2015

Instead of, for example, Sweden and France's poor.

Thanks for jumping on the libertarian false equivalency bandwagon, like some others in this thread already have.

Come to my wife's job, when she goes into cockroach-infested homes far below the poverty line in income, replete with drug and DV problems, no hope and no prospect to better themselves and tell their kids "Look on the bright side - you're in the world's top 20% of wealth!! What's that I see, a refrigerator? And a TV?? YOU'RE NOT POOR. I don't see any mud walls or bugs for breakfast! SO unappreciative of what you have!"

Poor is poor no matter where you live.

Union Scribe

(7,099 posts)
60. Please. You aren't subtle.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:18 AM
Jan 2015

"An American poorer than 97% of Americans is richer than 98% of Indians"

How isn't it right wing propaganda when a poster who says this also regularly dismisses the economic concerns of liberals especially in the context of globalism/TPP. I could find this same argument on Free Republic. 'Our poor aren't poor they're well off blah blah blah'.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
62. But an American poorer than 97% of Americans *is* richer than 98% of Indians:
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:23 AM
Jan 2015


It's a pretty simple fact; it doesn't have left- or right-wingedness to it.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
136. The message you guys are pushing certainly is.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 01:33 PM
Jan 2015

Has nothing to do with what's factual, and facts are only part of a logically sound comparison. It's carrying water for guys like Charles Koch, a guy who makes $34,000 every 23 minutes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/11/koch-brothers-commercial_n_3581017.html

Lars39

(26,109 posts)
63. Because the comparison you are wanting us to make is US income to third world income.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:23 AM
Jan 2015

The correct comparison should be to other first world industrialized nations. And because those of us here in the US have recently been hearing the exact same right wing talking points.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
64. Umm... yes. That's kind of explicitly the comparison I'm making.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:24 AM
Jan 2015

The comparison I'm pointing out is the extent to which America is much, much, much richer than most of the world.

Lars39

(26,109 posts)
67. What you are explicitly attempting is to downgrade our expectations of what a healthy first world
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:29 AM
Jan 2015

country should be.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
68. Our "healthy first world" was built by keeping the Global South this poor
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:32 AM
Jan 2015

You don't have one without the other.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
93. It's not that they don't count, it's just not a logically sound comparison.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:13 AM
Jan 2015

The attempt here is to compare the poor of a nation that CAN do something about it's poverty (but, by and large, chooses not to) to a nation that, because of serious lack of infrastructure, industry, societal modernization & controls and governmental acumen, can do relatively little to nothing about their poverty. For example, the "We Are the World" charity relief for famine-ravaged nations mostly found it's way into the hands of Soviet-backed rebels that ran those countries.

The better comparison would be that of a Protestant Work Ethic-addicted nation that does relatively little to thwart it's poverty or lift people out of it to a nation with relative equivalence in resources that OFFERS social services and due human rights to it's citizens at birth.

It is possible to be sympathetic to the poor of America AND the poor of sub-Saharan Africa AND the poor of Belgium AND the poor of South America without making it into an opportunity to shame.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
114. Yet you shame.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:43 AM
Jan 2015

You shame developed countries, especially the US, for "not doing enough" even when each and every person has access to clean running water, electricity, cheap food, and indeed, an expectation of employment. While many developing countries can't offer even two of those things. The US can absolutely do better, and trivially so, but it wouldn't change the overall wealth disparity between the US and developing countries.

I saw the OP as simple recognizing just how well off we are. If we can't recognize that, we're lost. It's OK to recognize even our poorest are better off than the rest, it may indeed compel us to help them. In fact, were we not exploiting those countries, they may not be as in bad of shape as they are. We get cheap labor from those countries, cheap resources, and we enjoy it. Want chocolate? Coffee? Any kind of plastic toy or product?

It's coming from developing countries with slave labor. Accept it.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
133. ????
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 01:23 PM
Jan 2015
even when each and every person has access to clean running water, electricity, cheap food, and indeed, an expectation of employment.


OK, I don't know whether that's just being innocently naive or willfully ignorant. Either way, one of us needs to get out more, and it's certainly not me.

Once again, do you want to tell someone in the rural south or homeless in America's worst urban areas how great they have it and how rich they are compared to someone in Jakarta? Are we really going there?
 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
134. Thank you!
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 01:25 PM
Jan 2015

We should all feel grateful to that we are being exploited and robbed by the 1% because people in 3rd world countries are so much poorer than we are.

This complacency will end up making it worse for ALL of us. The relatively wealthy 1st world workers AND the impoverished in the 3rd world as the race to the bottom continues.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
110. That is ridiculous.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:37 AM
Jan 2015

Beyond words. How the fuck is pointing out US development and living standard and income "downgrading our expectations"? That's just silly.

Lars39

(26,109 posts)
131. I'm hearing it a lot down here in red state hell.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 12:28 PM
Jan 2015

It's akin to the "eat your vegetables, there's children starving in China", and "in my day we walked 50 miles up hill in blizzards" invalidating crap.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
66. More like a logical fallacy . . . .
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:27 AM
Jan 2015
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as

There are a few different reasons someone will want to pull a "not as bad as" comparison. Consider a generic argument about something, A, and the reasoning below:

B happened, and is worse than A.
Therefore A is justified.

This is the most blatantly fallacious form of the argument and is a hindsight version of the "not as bad as" argument that states past actions can legitimise current actions. The existence of a worse atrocity in the past, however, does not actually justify anything — it merely points out that there have been similar things in the past. People who use this as a justification may be well aware that it's logically fallacious, and use it purely as rhetoric, or as a distraction.

Holocaust deniers and apologists use this quite frequently: "the Holocaust was bad, but Stalin killed more" is technically true, but this ignores the Axis' willingness to encourage World War II and is irrelevant if discussing murders carried out under Hitler's regime. Similarly "Internet censorship in the US isn't as bad as internet censorship in China" is true, but not relevant to discussing the erosion of free speech in a country that holds free speech to be an important part of human rights. Good and evil may be on a sliding scale, but the baseline of what makes something wrong shouldn't be set at the worst possible atrocity!

It is also used occasionally as a particularly underhanded emotional appeal, in an attempt to guilt trip someone, in order to have them stop voicing a complaint. For example: 'Feminists of the past had it WAY harder than modern feminists, so modern feminists should shut up!!'


Wingnuts (Stuart Varney on Faux, specifically) use this "not as bad as" canard to denigrate America's poor, admonishing them if they have TVs and Refrigerators, as if an appliance is some indicator of great wealth. They figure "Weeeeeellll, if you can buy this TV, then why should my hard-earned tax dollars go to feed your nine crack babies???"

The real problem is that they can't eat healthy, can't afford to live in a safe area, often can't afford a roof, can't afford any substantial medical problems and have no prospects to better themselves.

It's cold comfort to tell them "well at least you aren't getting raped in a favela or eating beetles!"

What good does that do?

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
73. Varney's a moron if he makes the "refrigerators" argument
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:42 AM
Jan 2015

(Caveat: I don't know the guy at all; just going off what you're saying.)

First off, very few poor people own their own refrigerators (their landlords own them). Manufactured goods are relatively easy to come by in the US; the distinction between the rich and the poor is mostly in services they can afford.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
103. The US is the fastest moving disadvantaged children country on the planet.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:34 AM
Jan 2015

In the developed world.

You must have forgotten about eastern Europe.

Anyone can pick and chose to make some pathetic point.

You can't get around the absolute fact of US dominance and development compared to the rest of the world. You can pretend, make up false stats, dance around the issue, but it's a fact that the US is far ahead even at its poorest than pretty much the rest of the world. It's why 1+ million people immigrate here a year. They're not coming here to be more impoverished, that would be absurd.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
65. The top 10% is an easy list to make
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:26 AM
Jan 2015

By wealth, I'm in the top 67.60% richest people in the world.

That makes me the 3,041,970,948th richest person on earth.

I'm in the top 9.52% richest people in the world by income.

That makes me the 571,311,958th richest person on earth by income.

FBaggins

(26,737 posts)
70. 50+ replies and nobody noticed that it's nonsense?
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:38 AM
Jan 2015

About 4.5% of the world population lives in the US.

So let's take an imagined income of $100k. The calculator claims that puts you in the richest .08% on the planet (roughly 5 millionth richest). Even if you assume that the poorest American makes more than the richest person anywhere else in the world (nonsense of course), that puts you at about the 1.75% highest in the US.

But that isn't the case. $100k/year "only" puts you in the top 6% or so of US individuals (top 25% of households).

Another interesting point. Every time I've compared my income/wealth to the US distribution in the past, I come out much higher on total wealth than on income (due to decades of being savings/investment prone and debt averse)... yet this calculator shows just the opposite (substantially so).

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
72. Because it's not nonsense. The global 1% income is $34K
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:40 AM
Jan 2015

Or at least it was 2 years ago.

And half of the people in the world who make that much live in the US.

FBaggins

(26,737 posts)
81. That too is nonsense.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:54 AM
Jan 2015
The global 1% income is $34K

They claim that it's $32,500 now

Even assuming individual income rather than household, that would mean that there are only 70 Million people in the world with incomes over $34k. There are more than that in just the US and Europe (almost just in the US).

We have 155 Million workers in the US. What's the median income?

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
84. I think you're assuming all Americans are workers
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:59 AM
Jan 2015

Which isn't the case.

They're dividing household income by household size, so it includes children. It would be more accurate to say "half of people who live in a household with income greater than $34k * household size live in the US"

FBaggins

(26,737 posts)
86. Nope - I gave you the numbers
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:05 AM
Jan 2015
It would be more accurate to say "half of people who live in a household with income greater than $34k * household size live in the US"

The household number for the US is closer to 50k (with median per-capita at about $15,500).

But you're dodging the simple math. If the top 1% of people (not workers) makes $34k, then there are only 70 million people in the world with incomes above that level.

That simply isn't even close to true. The reason that I asked for median income among workers in the US is that it would give you an idea of about what 70 million people here earn. Then keep in mind that Europe is pretty rich too and they have twice our population... then we could start talking about Japan... Australia... Canada... etc.etc.etc.

"half of people who live in a household with income greater than $34k * household size live in the US"


That's an entirely different statement... and also would be untrue.

FBaggins

(26,737 posts)
89. It doesn't have anything to do with household size.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:09 AM
Jan 2015

We're talking personal income - which artificially makes a family of four with one breadwinner look like one is in the top and the other three are destitute - but that's the measure that they're using.

Once again... do the math.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
95. No. I'm acknowledging the charity is doing some sleight of hand here
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:19 AM
Jan 2015

They're taking every member of every household in the world and giving them one Xth of the household income for household size X.

FBaggins

(26,737 posts)
109. Sleight of hand?
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:37 AM
Jan 2015

If that's the distinction they're making, they're outright lying... it isn't "sleight of hand".

They're taking every member of every household in the world and giving them one Xth of the household income for household size X.

Then why don't they ask you to take the income you report and divide by the number of people in your household?

On edit - Ok... I see the correction.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
119. Yes! I agree they should do that
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 12:05 PM
Jan 2015

Though since their purpose is to sell charitable donations, I can see why they wouldn't want to. But your initial point is quite fair, I realize now. Mea culpa!

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
105. BTW I edited the OP to include more of your point
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:35 AM
Jan 2015

You're right that the way it's stated is misleading

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
74. Yes, of course US elites are skewed against US income.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:44 AM
Jan 2015

This is a comparison vs world income.

See http://www.gapminder.org

Even some of the poorest people in the US are better off than the richest in many countries. This observation causes one to be labeled a right wing fascist here.

Union Scribe

(7,099 posts)
78. Maybe that's because it's an argument right wingers make
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:50 AM
Jan 2015

to try to shame the poor or the economic left to stop arguing against the harmful policies that the right wing (and far too many "Democrats&quot support.

FBaggins

(26,737 posts)
83. Don't confuse arguments with statements of fact.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:58 AM
Jan 2015

The fact that (in dollar terms), someone we consider "poor" has a larger income than some tribesman in a jungle... does not change the political argument.

IOW, we don't have to pretend that the fact is false in order to argue for policies that help with inequalities.

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
85. The ones on the left side are richer than most of the world
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:04 AM
Jan 2015



Yet they don't even reach the first level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs every day, whereas some tribes in South America, Africa and elsewhere reach the highest level of self actualization. with their community

The discussion of what constitutes wealth as purely a monetary inference is illusionary and disingenuous.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
92. This is definitely not accurate
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:11 AM
Jan 2015

There are about 150 million employed Americans alone. How are they calculating this?

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
94. They're counting all household members
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:17 AM
Jan 2015

So, in a two earner family of five, divide the sum of the two incomes by 5.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
112. There aren't 40 million people in the world making more than 38K per year?
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:40 AM
Jan 2015

It seems like between the US, Canada, and Europe there has got to be more than that.

FBaggins

(26,737 posts)
118. That's the other thing I pointed out
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:55 AM
Jan 2015

Just looking at US statistics over the years, I'm always much higher up in net worth than I am in income.

Yet somehow their calculation reverses the two (significantly).

I'd buy a claim that Americans in general are too likely to outspend their income and have little in the way of savings/investment... but not to that extent.

102. This is bullshit.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:34 AM
Jan 2015

Others have pointed out how it empowers right wing narratives, and I won't rehash that, although I will affirm it. The thing is you can't just compare U.S. dollars to other currency. You have to look at purchasing power.

For instance, $1 U.S. is worth $3.22 in Ghanan Cedi. Woohoo! I'm moving to Accra; I'll be rich! But wait... Rent prices in Accra are 161% higher than the midsize Midwestern city I live in. Here I'm paying 58% of my income in rent for a one bedroom apartment, while in Accra I'd be paying 90%! Oh, but hey, at least food costs 4% less in Accra. When there is food, anyway. So I guess I've got that going for me.

Meanwhile, if I do the same sort of comparisons for Lyon, France (about the same size as my city), I find that I'm paying a third more for rent here than I'd be paying in Lyon, same for utilities, and food's a bit of a wash with some things higher and some things lower.

femmocrat

(28,394 posts)
104. 144,037,647th
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:35 AM
Jan 2015

I just guessed on the value of property and assets though. I included the cars. I really don't own much else besides the house and cars. Furniture? Mostly old and inexpensive when bought new.

That is the top 3%.

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
107. I'm effing amazed (and a little humbled/ashamed)
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:36 AM
Jan 2015

I'm the 3,415,048th richest person on earth (top 0.06%).

I'm not sure I've done anything to deserve that, but being a white guy, born in America, probably didn't hurt.

That really is an eye opener. I have a family member struggling to get by on probably $20k a year and she's in the top 3.65%. $32,400 puts you in the top 1%.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
127. It's a rigged calculator meant to help push pro-1% propaganda.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 12:16 PM
Jan 2015

Their method of calculating your position is very much skewed to make you seem more wealthy than you are-- exactly like Fox News saying people aren't poor if they have a refrigerator and a color tv.

Not surprising to see it pop up here at this time, with the TPP issue coming to a head.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
135. +1000
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 01:27 PM
Jan 2015

That's exactly what it it. But we should feel grateful for the crumbs the global 1% throws us regardless.

William Seger

(10,778 posts)
141. It's definitely skewed beyond any sensible meaning
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 02:22 PM
Jan 2015
According to Gallup, the median household income worldwide is $9,733, but if you enter that in the calculator it says you're in the top 16.25%. Gallup also says the per-capita income is $2,920 (presumably, the $9,733 divided by the average household size, so including non-wage earners), but entering even that number says you're in the top 31.87%.

delete_bush

(1,712 posts)
144. I tested a few numbers trying to get to the 50% level (for income)
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 04:01 PM
Jan 2015

and it's around $1,300 per year.

It doesn't appear they are using household income, more like per-capita (at least for income), but as you state this is off as well. And they are using a population of around 6 million, which is rather odd as this was the population circa 2000.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
122. Ah, the new TPP meme for the day. Guilt.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 12:08 PM
Jan 2015

The purpose of agreements like the TPP is to bring everyone DOWN to the lowest level, while the top gets richer and richer.

TexasMommaWithAHat

(3,212 posts)
124. When you consider our worst schools in the U.S.
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 12:11 PM
Jan 2015

compared to what many have around the world, you realize how wealthy this nation is.

Even the worst schools here have qualified teachers, multiple stocked classrooms, a cafeteria that serves food (albeit horrible quality), and bathrooms...with toilet paper. Electricity. Running water.

Fifty years ago, a child could get a good education if there was a school with good teachers, books, pencils and paper, and a chalkboard. I'm pushing sixty, and the most high tech item in my school was the overhead projector.

And the sad thing is...you could still give a child a quality education with not much more than that if he feels safe, secure, and is well fed.

We could do a lot better.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
147. Actually it goes down to about 0.5%
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 10:58 PM
Jan 2015

India has less income inequality than the US or the world average (though a broader spread than the US).

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
149. I won't rank myself against people who are starving (much of that due to Western Imperialism) Rather
Sat Jan 3, 2015, 11:14 PM
Jan 2015

I will rank myself to the standards of labor's activist progress in the world that I live in. I honor them and I support the goals of global labor movements to enable working people to live a living wage life. That is what I want for me and what I want for the rest of the world.

ClarkeVII

(89 posts)
152. So many callous people here...
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 01:48 PM
Jan 2015

Care International isn't promoting RW agenda they are simply making a point about global wealth disparity. Count your lucky stars and send them a donation.

JI7

(89,249 posts)
154. yes, i wonder why people have a problem with this
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 08:49 PM
Jan 2015

in fact as i said it means we can afford to do many things that right wingers are always claiming we can't in trying to cut programs.

but the point of this is more of just to show off poor many in the world are.

Orrex

(63,210 posts)
153. The "wealth" option doesn't factor net worth
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 01:57 PM
Jan 2015

Our student loans equal about 250% of the equity in our home, with other debt clocking in around $7,000, making my net worth somewhere well below zero.

Yet the app tells me I'm in the top 17.86% percentile? I call bullshit.

A homeless person with $10 radio and zero debts would rank higher than me, by that dubious metric.


I've seen similar websites before, and the message is always the same: "You want a living wage? Feh! 5.5 billion people would happily trade your salary for theirs, you over-privileged snob."

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