Video: Man raises hands in surrender, immediately shoots at police

[QuestionableC]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=476_1418943540

Shows how split second things really are out there.

[murielm99]

1. I could not tell much of anything from that. n/t

[MohRokTah]

2. I don't see it.

Nowhere in the video is anybody raising hands in surrender them shooting.

[oneshooter]

35. Look at the lower left of the screen. It is a split image. n/t

[MohRokTah]

36. I did and I still didn't see it.

[oneshooter]

43. Try the video at post#20. n/t

[JI7]

3. if this is how things are out there why did you need to post something old

[QuestionableC]

5. The video was only recently released after the investigation concluded.

[TorchTheWitch]

16. old? It happened a little more than a week before the Mike Brown shooting

How is that "old"?

[Kelvin Mace]

4. And?

Most of the shootings that have everyone upset do NOT involve any "split second" decisions.

[Krytan11c]

6. Hands raised for a split second

Before going back down to shoot.

This is NOT the same as shooting or otherwise killing someone who is unarmed.

Also, a strange that the perp didn't pull the gun from his waistband, I thought that's where people kept guns.

[TorchTheWitch]

14. he probably already had it in his hand when he got out of the car

Only his left arm went up at 2:31, and he's standing with his left side facing the officer. At 2:32 he has the gun pointed with both hands.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

8. Well clearly the only solution going forward is to shoot first and ask questions later.

[Maedhros]

9. There is an institutional problem with the police repeatedly killing citizens unnecessarily.

There is NOT a widespread problem with police being killed by citizens.

[metalbot]

23. Actually, I could argue it the other way around

Using rounded numbers to make the math easier.

FBI says in 2013, 27 police officers were murdered (discounting the normal dangers of being a police officer and getting killed accidentally). There are roughly 1 million police officers, so 2.7 per 100,000 were murdered.

By independent estimates (not the self-reporting by police departments), roughly 1000 people are killed each year by police. There are roughly 300 million people in the US, or .3 per 100,000 are killed by police. Of course, this counts all police killings, some of which are justified. But even if we assume that NONE of the killings were justified, the average police officer is more than 10 times more likely to be killed by a citizen than for a citizen to be killed by the police.


That being said, the way in which we investigate police shootings is terrible - police need to be held accountable for shootings in the same way that we hold civilians accountable, and departments should never investigate themselves.

Side note: I think that one of the reasons that police officers get away with murder is that they actually understand the legal process reasonably well, and don't make statements without attorneys. I have several friends who are defense attorneys, and all of them say that they could win a LOT more cases if their clients would simply never answer questions and insist on having an attorney. Proving negligence/intent in manslaughter/murder cases where only the living can tell a story can be really hard based on our legal standards for guilt.

[Maedhros]

24. The real issue:

What percentage of citizens who kill police officers are acquitted?

What percentage of police officers who kill citizens are acquitted? How many even face charges, or disciplinary action other than paid leave?

[QuestionableC]

28. I'm sure the percentage of justified killings OF police is much lower than BY police

[daleanime]

34. Which is by definition....

100%, right?

[Schema Thing]

10. Did the perp take any shots? I didn't see any flashes coming from his direction.

oddly crappy unhelpful camera angle on the cop car too.

[TorchTheWitch]

12. the suspect immediately fired

There was definitely a flash coming from his gun. Looked to me that he only got off one shot and then tried to run.

Any YT video I have to look at carefully I almost always have to download and watch it on my computer. I get so much choppy playback and one or two second long buffering that's almost constant. Video is also much clearer after downloading and watching on my computer than trying to watch on YT.

I don't see what's wrong with the camera angle. It's like watching from the passenger seat. During the chase I kept wanting to go for the invisible brake. I never feel very comfortable as a passenger though since I'm almost never a passenger. The whole perspective is so off to me not being in the driver's seat, and I can't stand not being the one on the controls.

[Schema Thing]

13. the camera is looking at the ground

it wouldn't even show above the waist in a normal traffic stop.

[TorchTheWitch]

15. looking at the ground?

What video are you watching? The camera angle is straight through the windshield the whole time.

[unblock]

32. the top edge of my screen is the license plate. not sure where you got the stills from.

but it seems the interesting part isn't available to everyone.

[TorchTheWitch]

57. that is bizarre

It looks just fine to me. You clicked on the video in the OP? Did you try watching it on YT's site? I can't figure out how it could do that. Maybe try it again and see what happens?

I downloaded the video because YouTube videos always do that buffering every few seconds for me though the audio part plays smoothly. I just download some things and watch them on my computer so it runs through without the buffering. I took screen shots from the video after downloading it and watching it with VCL. I recently discovered that with VCL you can take a snapshot of a video frame and it automatically saves to your computer. I just cut the two stills about in half because they were so wide I thought that they'd stretch the DU page, and there was nothing to see in the half I cut off but more of the street and dark houses in the distance anyway... everything happening at that point was to the far right of the screen at about the passenger seat perspective. Anywho, I just uploaded the still shots to my photobucket to put them here.

I'm going to try watching it again on YouTube and see what it looks like. I just can't understand why it looks fine for some people and so off kilter for others.

On Edit: The OP changed the video to a LiveLeak page that has it it. When they first posted it was an embeded YouTube clip. The video on the LiveLeak page still looks ok when I play though. I just can't download it because it's not got a YouTube link, and my download helper doesn't seem to recognize where it's coming from. No idea why the OP changed the link - the embeded YouTube one looked fine to me.

[Jamastiene]

66. I have that same problem with Youtube lately.

It has only been that way for the past few months. I used to be able to watch Youtube videos without a problem. I have noticed that if I avoid going on Youtube between about 3:00 pm EST and midnight EST, the videos will run more smoothly. If I go during those times, though, it is almost impossible even after it bumps my quality down to 240p with Auto checked. I prefer the more high def version of anything. So, I usually end up just downloading the videos. The thing that gets me is how much faster downloading the video really is, faster than even watching it. The buffering on Youtube is atrocious for me.

[TorchTheWitch]

67. thank heaven's it's not just me!

I don't even bother with trying to watch anything on YT during the day. And you're right, downloading them is much much faster than just trying to watch them from YT. It doesn't seem to matter if it's just a 30 second clip either... it's still just as slow, blurry and all that damn buffering. If it's really late at night depending on what I'm watching I can put up with it without downloading unless it's something like dancing or anything you have to look at carefully for some reason... that kind of stuff I'll automatically just download.

[snooper2]

21. LOL, the ground looks like a Toyota Camry

[Schema Thing]

56. apparently there was a different video feed

with some kind of weird video anomaly going on.


someone posted the clear version down below.

[arthritisR_US]

59. I watched the video provided by the OP and

there was no buffering interruptions at all. The camera was not facing down from what I saw because during the car chase you could even see an overpass coming up that was over head. When the driver stopped and got out of his car for a brief second he put his hands up and then he immediately fired a shot and then a other two. I saw three flashes in total and also heard the accompanying sound to them at which point you hear the police returning fire.

[Schema Thing]

62. for some reason, there was an anomolie

every time I clicked the link. The clear portion of the video was only the lower portion, and then there was a weird red-only overly of the entire frame - but it did not show up well at all.

Apparently some other people saw this on their feed as well. One of the stranger things I've encountered - that it would work fine for some and not for others.

[oneshooter]

63. Better vid on post#20. n/t

[TorchTheWitch]

11. looked to me that he shot his left arm in the air

stiff arm straight up for a second or two max and had the gun concealed in his right hand down by his side since he immediately turned and fired.

I wonder if they ever got the guy that jumped out of the passenger side and ran.

[Katashi_itto]

17. Now the police apologists here can say we need to shoot em if they raise their hands in the air too

[QuestionableC]

18. Of course not

But more perspective is always a good thing. This video, more so than most, clearly shows how things change from complete surrender to complete deadly force justification in a fraction of a second. I also think it's interesting that there are several posters who aren't satisfied with even this crystal clear video showing the suspect actually shooting at the officer.

[Sunlei]

30. If we reform the police so they wait in their car, use the speaker to make the people get out...

we will see a lot less of this kind of gun violence. Police these days have no patience at all, they love to knock down doors, invade homes at 4AM...push in close to cars that may have desperate, armed persons inside.

Police treat ALL of society like everyone is the enemy, they back everyoneinto a corner.

Some armed dangerous people will attack police much more often when they are backed into a corner.

[oneshooter]

38. Then you will have a lot more police killed in their cars.

And that will make you feel better?

[Sunlei]

39. Why would you say something like that?

[oneshooter]

42. Because your idea makes the police a sitting target. n/t

[Sunlei]

44. Police used to make people go to the back of the car and stand there. Today they

go to the car door and shoot people directly. Like they shot my friends 20 year old son, when he called for help on his cell phone. Police came and shot him in his car because he had the cell phone in his hand talking to dispatcher.

[Calista241]

65. It's safer for everyone if the cop is outside of the car, and the subject remains in the car.

It's very difficult to conceal a gun, then pull it out and shoot over your shoulder with any accuracy.

On a more general note, I don't understand what the issue is with complying with an officer. In many cases you hear about, the person the police were with was actively resisting or being super combative with the officer. Why would anyone try and argue / fight with someone who you know is armed, and is super likely to get away with killing you if things escalate?

[CANDO]

46. This wasn't a typical situation.

They already had the passenger flea on foot before the car sped away and it turned into a pursuit/chase. Vast majority of the time, these type situations end up with the suspect coming out of the car with foul intentions. Split second decision, but they already had a driver forcing them on a chase, so their split second decision has already been decided because the idiot came out with gun in hand. Vastly different situation than people getting shot by police for no reason beyond walking in the street or selling cigs on a street corner or for driving in an un-stickered car.

[Erose999]

31. Clearly we should just shoot all suspects pre-emptively. Shoot first, ask questions NEVER! :sarcasm:

[NCTraveler]

19. Police have an extremely tough and dangerous job. No doubt about that.

Unfortunately, far too many are in danger because of the direction law enforcement has gone. Tough job? No question about it. One of the toughest jobs in the country. Doesn't mean they don't need to be reigned in or that the training and hiring process doesn't need to drastically change.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

50. Yes and no, respectively.

Policing is an extremely tough, demanding and draining job, but not an immensely dangerous one - a lot of other occupations have higher rates of work-related deaths, although I suspect that rather fewer place such strains on your private life.

[NCTraveler]

58. Being a low enforcement officer is a dangerous job.

Not sure why that would be in question. Because a lot of other occupations have higher rates of work-related deaths doesn't say much. Take law enforcement deaths and injuries and compare them to other occupations. It ranks pretty high up there. Just because it isn't the highest doesn't mean it is not dangerous as you state. By all American employment standards it is tough.

[MillennialDem]

60. A lot of that high fatality rate is because of accidents though

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/causes.html

It's either the leading or second leading cause of death - depending on what exactly "struck by vehicle" means. Pedestrian cop struck by car? Cop who gets out of his car during a traffic stop struck by a third party motorist? Car run down by a suspect? Cop run down by another cop accidentally? Probably some combination of the previous, just depends how much is which...

(I would include motorcycle, auto, boating, aircraft, and bicycle accidents as one thing. Doesn't matter what type of vehicle you're in).

[Recursion]

61. It's not even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs

And nearly all the injuries and deaths that do happen are from auto accidents.

[seveneyes]

20. Much better video of shooting here ...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=476_1418943540

[oneshooter]

37. He actually got off three shots at the police. n/t

[Capt. Obvious]

22. Welcome to DU

[Hutzpa]

25. So, whats your point??

nt

[tenderfoot]

26. This kind of thing will happen when guns are so readily available like they are now.

Gun owners really should do a better job locking up their weapons, so criminals like this can't steal them then shoot at cops.

[Sunlei]

27. yes, yes, police have a dangerous job but thats still NO EXCUSE to kick, hit or kill citizens.

[randys1]

29. Split second? Immediate need to shoot?

Michael Brown was running away, being shot after an incident where a cop was angry that he would have the nerve to talk back to the cop.

So no need for the cop to do anything split second there.

Garner? Yeah, no need to even go up to him and talk to him, let alone murder him.

Tamir? Show me cops shooting 12 yr old white kids with play guns, then we can talk.

Trayvon? Again, the murderer sought out the victim.

Jordan Davis? If only he had turned down his music, right?

[HappyMe]

33. A heavy hearted +1.

[pinboy3niner]

40. +2

If the OP author disagrees, perhaps he might just come out and say so directly.

[SomethingFishy]

48. Thanks, saved me the trouble..

No one is saying the police can't defend themselves. This false equivalency is stupid beyond measure..

[randys1]

54. You dont understand, this one situation justifies the needless, unnecessary murders of several

Black men...in the eyes of some, that is, otherwise why would they do this?

But your point is a good one, very succinct, thanks.

[Savannahmann]

41. I'm assuming you're an expert on Police Procedure.

That is awesome. It's about time. Now, if we could get a little help here.

This video was posted the other day in another thread. Perhaps you can explain what split second decision making process had the second officer to arrive kick a man who has fully surrendered in the head. by fully surrendered I mean laying on his stomach, with his hands cuffed behind him, and Officer number one sitting on him.

I mean, what was the kick besides punitive? Also officer number two tased the individual who was again, laying on the ground, with his hands cuffed, with cop number one sitting on him. Here's the news story.

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/watch-man-holds-hands-and-lies-down-and-cops-still-kick-him-face-and-taser-him

Nobody here has an issue with a police officer using justifiable force to defend himself, or to arrest someone. On the other hand, we do have major issues with police using excessive force, torture, brutality, and lying about it. If every police shooting were like the one you post, where a clear threat existed, and the baddie fires first at a police officer behind cover (the car) then I would be as mute as a church mouse about police brutality. But few of those uses of force are like that. Most are saw a movement, saw him reach this way, or that. Saw something in his hand I assumed was a gun. And there are even more like this, when the suspect is in custody, and pummeled and beaten because the cop can't control his aggression without hitting someone.

So since you're the champion of defenders, I'm assuming you'll be here to explain what the hell the cop was doing when he pummels people like in the video I provided. Will you say when the cops screwed up? Or are you merely here to offer a voice from the other side of the argument?

[arcane1]

52. Good luck getting a response.

[sarisataka]

45. For those having trouble

finding the relevant points,
-2:29 suspect's car comes into view, suspect is already emerging from car

-2:30 suspect stand fully up and begins to move

-2:31- suspect raises one arm clearly (possibly both @2:30 as he is raising it looks like maybe his right arm is going up as well). I cannot accurately time it but it is less than .5 seconds that his arm(s) is/are raised.

-2:32 suspect has hands down, view is blocked by car. Where his hands are and what he is doing can only be supposition. At the end of that second he presents a pistol in a two hand grip

-2:33 suspect fires two shots and begins to dodge

-2:35 suspect fires a third shot

-2:36 suspect tries to flee but falls on grass

-2:37 suspect moves out of camera view, shot is heard

-2:39 two more sounds of shots

-2:40 suspect can briefly be seen at edge of video. Three shots fired

-2:41 appears that suspect falls to ground. Three shots fired

-2:42 last shot fired

-2:43 an officer enters the frame, reloads his pistol

-2:49 officer reports suspect is down and moves off camera towards suspect

In all, 13 shots fired. Three can definitely be attributed to the suspect, all others are determined from sound and cannot be determined from video.

-note- I am only giving a time line and not claiming anything beyond what I can best determine during these ~20 seconds

[TeamPooka]

47. Show me the pattern of this happening again and again, like the pattern of police shootings against

unarmed civilians.
Your example is questionable and so are your motives with this lone case, unlike the pervasive epidemic of police shooting unarmed black men.

[gollygee]

49. This is irrelevant in regard to any of the recent shootings

However, yes if someone shoots at police, it is completely understandable that police need to shoot back.

[Rex]

51. Yet cops like Wilson still have no right to gun down an unarmed man running away.

Since I know that is your point. Brown was at the mercy of Wilson. So both situations are completely different. Nice video of cops defending themselves you posted there. Sad that some cops make the split decision to kill a 12 year old child thought. Specially since the cop was already deemed unqualified to be a cop in another department.

You think cops will ever police their own well enough for mistakes like that not to happen? We can only hope one day.

[FiveGoodMen]

53. Wow, that's some messed-up video

Here's a link to a clean one (of the same incident): http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=476_1418943540

[pinboy3niner]

55. The YouTube video in the OP has now been taken down

This video is no longer available because the YouTube account associated with this video has been terminated.

[Jamastiene]

64. That person was not unarmed.

Their hands didn't really go up either.