General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsEvery religious text has language...
Every religious text* has language that can be construed as xenophobic, homophobic, misogynistic, et cetera. Different folks emphasize the parts they like and de-emphasize the parts they don't. I can find justification in the Torah, the Koran, or the Bible for a lot of actions right thinking folks would be horrified at.
Fundamentalism is the problem whether it be Christian, Jewish, or Islamic but to deny somebody is not of a religion they profess to be of because you believe he or she isn't doesn't strike me as logical or rational.
Please don't consider this attack on religion but an attack on orthodoxy. I consider myself a believer but true believers scare me whether their beliefs be ideological, political, or religious.
* i can only speak to the Abrahamic religions because those are the religions I have been exposed to.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)A hundred believers believe Religion X means *this*.
A thousand believe it means *that*.
A thousand more believe it means *the other*.
So does Religion X mean *this*, *that* or *the other*?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)That's why if someone tells me he or she is a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Theist, Non-Theist, et cetera I am not going to tell him or her he or she isn't.
It also surely means I don't hold one member of a group responsible for the actions of another.
brooklynite
(94,535 posts)If it says
"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
or
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything you do"
or
"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them"
I take them at their word.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)But that's irrelevant. We don't get to determine who is and isn't a Christian, Jew, Muslim et cetera and what they can and can not believe . We do in a democratic, pluralistic society get to prevent them from acting on their beliefs.
brooklynite
(94,535 posts)it's to apply my personal opinion TO their religious observance.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I am trying to note the irony of some, who are almost invariably secular, determining who is and isn't a member of this or that religion.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Coventina
(27,115 posts)Sadly, many if not most Christians are more likely to listen to Paul's words than Jesus' silence.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)It would be pretty silly to tell a Christian he isn't a Christian because he defers to Paul's teachings who wrote, most, if not a lot of the New Testament.
I don't agree with Paul on that or a lot of the Old Testament proscriptions but it would be presumptuous if not down right silly for me to tell those that do they aren't Christians. I do think I can make a convincing case that those quotes need to be seen in context.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Coventina
(27,115 posts)That includes the Pauline epistles.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)My UCC pastor told me Paul is referring to men who have sex with underage male prostitutes not gay men qua gay men. I like that interpretation. Adults shouldn't be having sex with kids, regardless of the gender.
The Fundamentalist Baptist preacher who baptized me when I was fourteen years old would say that interpretation is nonsense.
In Corninthians Paul says women should not speak in church.
My UCC minister told me Paul was only speaking to the women of that church because they were talking during the sermon and creating a nuisance. I like that interpretation.
The Fundamentalist Baptist minister says that's a blanket proscription.
I could give more examples...
The bottom line is you can find a justification for anything including slavery in the Bible.
Coventina
(27,115 posts)The UCC is one of the most progressive denominations out there, and if I were to attend a Christian church at all, that's what I would choose.
But, at its very core, the Abrahamic tradition is soaked in violence, misogyny, and racism.
I'm not a fan, in spite of it being the foundation of my upbringing.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)After my mom died in 2008, whom I had personally taken care of for the last twelve years of her life, I had an existential crisis. I was shook. I went to Catholic, UCC, Adventist, and Baptist churches in the aftermath. I learned a lot and I also learned a lot about spin.
Any way I still believe in Jesus and ask myself what Jesus would do when I have a moral decision. I just ignore all the fire ,brimstone and condemnation stuff. It works for me but I would never deny Jesus,
Coventina
(27,115 posts)however one chooses to define that.
I DON'T believe he was the son of the Old Testament god.
That guy is a monster.
And, I DON'T accept Paul as a mouthpiece for God. I don't accept the Pauline epistles as the Word of God.
And, as institutions, I have completely soured on all three of the religions.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)As far as the number of times and the vehemence with which the Christ denounces a behavior, hypocrisy is numero uno.
And yet we never hear a word about that from the preachers.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)That any religious text is held in regards higher than any other grocery store checkout aisle tabloid is beyond me. Age nor number of adherents lend any validation to any of these works of fiction.
Hestia
(3,818 posts)touch on likes or dislikes/bigotry/racism. There is spiritual thought out there in this wide world waiting for you to discover it.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)All hail His Noodly Appendage for having the only holy text free of homophobia, xenophobia, misogyny etc.
Ramen!
brooklynite
(94,535 posts)between tomato-based and garlic & oil-based sauces?
longship
(40,416 posts)What are trying to do? Start WWIII?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)In the Name of the Pasta, and of the Sauce, and of the Holy Meatballs... R'amen" would appear to be inclusive of all sauces - tomato,:garlic, oil- based, cream and yes, even broth!
Since the primary tenet is " no dogma" , I'm going to call the schism heretical.
But I remain a humble student only, thrilled to be worshipping at the pasta altar (which tonight happened to be spinach/ricotta stuffed ravioli with a homemade butternut sauce. )
Marr
(20,317 posts)It's like a Rorschach test that can be used a club. People can derive moral justification for anything they want with religious texts.
Hestia
(3,818 posts)aren't aware of, (3,000 years worth, minimum) though there is scads more left to be translated.
The texts are of the human history and not of any particular race.
You'll be amazed at how very little human thought has changed over the millennium. 70% C students; 20% B students; 1% A students.
Ancients bitched about how stupid people were then and didn't want to change their lives for the better; workers were lazy; wives nagged too much, etc. The things we think about today, they thought back then too.
Each country had their State Deities, then Local Deities, then your Household Deities. There was room for everybody. Romans fell in love with Isis/Aset (her real name, which it looks like we are all going to have to go back to - Isis is a Greek word), and She is the most traveled Goddess in the ancient world.
What is astounding, though, is their spiritual thoughts. http://www.sacred-texts.com has a lot on their website for you to peruse.
Heck, even the Alchemists were not what people today think - their workbooks are coded - in English, which didn't exist as a whole and was refined during the Renaissance and why English is an amalgam of different languages tacked onto it. When they discuss "turning lead into gold" they are discussing the soul or spirit - rising from the dross (lead) and rising towards enlightenment (or whatever you want to call it). Yeah, they had to pretend for their benefactors they were working on physical gold, but they knew there was no way. They just wanted the freedom to study and be paid for it. Because of their studies, they developed the branch of science called Chemistry.
The Corpus Hermeticum was brought from Arabia to Italy and the Medici's paid to have it translated. It exploded in the inner circles of the rich and worked it way down to the middle class, helping to bring for the Renaissance and loosen the power of the church.
Kinda ticks me off that because Hermeticism is not Ancient Egyptian, but 1st Century Alexandrian, that the thought process of Hermetics should be discounted. It just wasn't written down until the 1st Century. Copies of the Corpus Hermeticum were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi scroll finds, and other places around Israel/Judea and the rest of the world.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/index.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/index.htm
One thing to be aware of when you some of these texts is the term "sacred marriage" "Hermetic Marriage", etc. The symbolism is a Sun & Moon interposed on each other. Sun represents "male/active/consciousness", Moon represents "female/the unconscious". It means the attainment of integration of the spirit and persona into a higher state of superconsciousness & genderlessness. Unfortunately, until we accomplish this Great Work, we come back, reincarnation after reincarnation, until we get it right.
Adam McLean, Scottish researcher, has been studying alchemical texts for decades and he does have a correspondence course on how to read the symbolism. It's another language and you need to learn the vocabulary. Most people are too lazy to go and try to read these texts for themselves, it's hard hard work. It ain't easy and it takes a lifetime.
So think of this way - while others may grovel on their knees in fear of their mister (literal translation of the word lord), the rest of us are standing on our own two feet discovering for ourselves (hopefully) some attainment of wisdom, because in the end, we're all going to have to do it anyway.
There is a whole wealth & world of knowledge out there and it doesn't begin or end with the Big 3.