Pope Francis: "You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others."

[True Earthling]

Pope on Charlie Hebdo: There Are Limits to Free Expression

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/pope-charlie-hebdo-limits-free-expression-28240968

Pope Francis said Thursday there are limits to freedom of expression, especially when it insults or ridicules someone's faith.

"If my good friend Dr. Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch," Francis said, throwing a pretend punch his way. "It's normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others."

"There are so many people who speak badly about religions or other religions, who make fun of them, who make a game out of the religions of others," he said. "They are provocateurs. And what happens to them is what would happen to Dr. Gasparri if he says a curse word against my mother. There is a limit."

[tkmorris]

1. Lighten up Francis

[Ilsa]

7. lol. I know where you got that!

Fabulous 80s movie.

[lame54]

8. "If you make fun of my god - i'll kill ya"

[sakabatou]

10. As Capt. America said...

[tblue37]

163. Best use of that line EVER! nt

[get the red out]

2. I disagree with him

Respectfully, but disagree.

[F4lconF16]

159. I disrespectfully disagree with him.

His position is not one that deserves respect.

[MohRokTah]

3. And the Pope says something to make me lose respect for him.

He said wonderful things all the way up to this.

If your religion cannot withstand mockery, it's a religion that should not exist.

[belzabubba333]

9. what's wrong with civility or decency - there are things we already dont say or do out

respect of other people. why is it ok to dump on something so personal as someone's religion.

[MohRokTah]

15. Politeness is fine, but free speech requires the ability to mock religions.

It's okay because even offensive speech is protected.

It is not okay to be violent against offensive speech, but this Pope says it is.

[elehhhhna]

47. he actually didnt say it was ok to be violent

Nuance.

[MohRokTah]

55. No, he even made the violence personal.

He said it was okay for him to hit somebody for mocking his faith. Period.

[belzabubba333]

59. well we cant yell fire in a theater there are things that you can say here that will get you

thrown out so there are limits to f.s. and while youre free to say what you will it doesnt mean you have to and tolerance and decency say you probably shouldnt

[MohRokTah]

62. You apprently do not know what free speech means.

This is a privately held message board. Things you say here may get you thrown out, but they won't get you arrested.

Yelling fire in a theater is an example of creating havoc where no emergency exists and can be criminal.

Calling Roman Catholicism professional pedophilia coupled with hats is not yelling fire in a theater. It is mockery and it is protected.

That said, if you find some speech offensive, respond with MORE SPEECH. That's our system.

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism or mockery.

[lancer78]

66. Free speech

does not protect you from the consequences of that speech. I think that is why a lot of people think Charlie Hebdo had it coming.

[MohRokTah]

67. Violence is NEVER a consequence fo free speech.

Violence is criminal, regardless.

This Pope just advocated for the use of violence in response to free speech. I've lost all respect for the man. He's no different from the Imams calling for the death of Charlie Hebdo cartoonists, IMO.

[PeaceNikki]

84. Do you think that "Charlie Hebdo had it coming"?

[lancer78]

123. No i don't

however, I was not surprised when the attack happened, just like I wasn't surprised by 9/11.

[SidDithers]

101. And the Pope apparently agrees with those people...nt

Sid

[belzabubba333]

74. what freedom of speech means is that the government cant tell you to shut up and

i didnt say it wasnt allowed im saying out of respect to others mockery ought to be a little more delicate. you dont go to your in laws house and talk about how great their daughter is in bed.

Yelling fire in a theater is an example of creating havoc where no emergency... isnt this exaclty what hebdo did?

[MohRokTah]

75. No, that is not what Charlie Hebdo did.

Charlie Hebdo engaged in protected speech. They mocked a religion. They were irreligious and mocing. They did not create an emergency where none exists, they RIGHTFULLY mocked a religion.

If religions cannot stand up to mockery, they should not exist.

You cannot demand politeness, you will only strengthen the resolve to mock and blaspheme.

[tblue37]

164. No, the gunmen who murdered 12 people over a freaking

cartoon are the ones who created havoc where no emergency existed--until they themselves created one!

[PotatoChip]

106. I agree with you. Rude people have a free speech right to express their rudeness.

I totally disagree with the Pope on this.

It's better to just let people reveal who they really are.

[MohRokTah]

109. If the Pope wanted to be Christlike, he'd call for blessing and praying for those who mock religions

Had he adhered to the beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount in this, he'd have maintained my respect because he would have remained true to the values he claims to espouse.

[PotatoChip]

110. Yup. (nt)

[PeaceNikki]

28. Because much of that religion has no respect for my right as a woman

or the rights of my LGBT brethren.

[belzabubba333]

51. is that the religion or the people who run it ?

[MohRokTah]

56. The people who run it ARE the religion. eom

[belzabubba333]

63. no . the religion is the religion and the people running it are the people running it

the crew of a ship is not the ship. the church used to say that you could buy your way out of purgatory - that's not the religion saying that that's the men running it. same with preists being celebate i dont recall reading that in the bible. hedbo should be drawing caracatures of the pope and imams and people not jesus god muhamed or allah

[MohRokTah]

64. The peopel who run it make it up.

So they are the religion

[belzabubba333]

78. then a new pope means a new religion ? or is it the same religion regardless of whose

"running" it

[MohRokTah]

80. PRetty much. eom

[AlbertCat]

126. the religion is the religion

Uh... religion doesn't exist without people. The people ARE the religion, Without them it's just mythology. (Actually it's just mythology even with people.... but it takes people to make it real and act on the mythology)

[belzabubba333]

128. (sigh) if you wiped away all people the religion would still be there it just wouldnt have any

followers

[AlbertCat]

135. (sigh)

It would not exist. Like the dinosaurs.

There were thousands and thousands of prehistoric and early religions that you and I and everyone know nothing of and never will.... because they do not exist. They did while people were following them, but now no one does and no one knows about them.

[belzabubba333]

150. they still exist there are no followers for them. we know about people who worship the sun

that religion is still around but there's no one is following it. you could easily start worshiping the sun again but that doesnt mean you just created it cause it was already here.
and since youre as tired of this argument as i am (sigh) i imagine there will be no response.

[MohRokTah]

136. Baloney. Without adherents, there is no religion. eom

[belzabubba333]

143. well i disagree it would be here without adherents - i know you disagree so there's no need

to keep the yes it is/no it isnt stuff going

[MohRokTah]

146. Religion is a human construct.

Without adherents, the construct ceases to be.

[belzabubba333]

152. so is stonehenge - so is the flag on the moon -

so is the notion that the world is flat it's a human construct with no adherents but the notion is still there - the miasma theory another human construct without adherents but the theory is still here

[MohRokTah]

156. The construct of the religion exists only within the mind.

Thus no adherents means it ceases to exist.

[PeaceNikki]

72. Yes. It is the religion and the people who 'run it'.

[treestar]

52. I agree, in that no one likes to be made fun of

The mockers wouldn't like it if it were directed at something important to them.

One can challenge religion or argue about it without making fun of the other person.

[MohRokTah]

70. Mockery is still protected free speech.

Fuck the Pope.

Just another pedophile protecter in a hat.

[belzabubba333]

85. the hate is strong in this one

[MohRokTah]

87. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

If your faith cannot withstand mockery, you have no faith.

[belzabubba333]

93. my faith is fine thankyou

[belzabubba333]

96. yea when the tea party had their pictures of obama the witch doctor or the watermellons on the

front lawn i dont recall anyone cheering their "free speech" rights. i guess it's ok for the tolerant party to be intolerant and somehow still be the tolerant party

[MohRokTah]

111. I didn't hear any sane person calling for punching them or shooting them.

Instead, I heard criticism and mockery, which is what free speech is all about.

[belzabubba333]

129. nor did you hear all the talk of the importance of free speech or the cheerleading of more signs

[MohRokTah]

131. Because nobody was threatning violence like this Pope just did. eom

[PeaceNikki]

98. Mock ALL you want ALL fucking day long, but stay the fuck out of my human rights.

Don't you understand that the basis for the mockery is the simple fact that religion is trying to push its barbaric tenets onto a secular society?

We, the mockers, are not trying to stop you or anyone from practicing your religion, we want religion to stop pushing it's archaic, hateful, homophobic and misogynistic ideal onto US and in our laws.

The minute that organized religion leaves our autonomy and human rights alone, that's the minute I will stop criticizing and mocking them.

Til then, it's on.

[DLevine]

104. Yes, thank you. Plus a million. nt

[cilla4progress]

76. You and I have been on the same page with this all along, belza.

I agree. Of course, people should be allowed to say and do what they wish - I'm looking at you, Miley Cyrus.

But is it good judgment? Is it culturally sensitive? Is it provocative in a way that is helpful or constructive? Is there NO consensus?

Honestly, I don't have respect for people who feel they need to post cartoons of Muhammed fellating or whatever. And turn it around: what about cartoons of Jews in 1930s Germany, or African-Americans in 1800s US, or President Obama in 2014 America? Are we rabidly supportive of these?

It just doesn't take a lot of maturity and sensitivity to support/not support these things.

But, hell ya, they are "free" to express anything short of yelling fire in a crowded theater, I guess.

[belzabubba333]

94. apparantly hate is ok as long as it's their brand of hate

[SidDithers]

107. Oh boo fucking hoo...

That's pretty rich, claiming that the fucking Pope and his defenders are victims.



Sid

[notadmblnd]

153. Because people don't keep it personal

I don't bring religion up with anyone or any conversation. However I can't count the times I've had someone's religion imposed upon me. If one is going to attempt to impose their religious veiws upon me, they need to be prepared for the ridicule.

Keep your religion between you and your God and you'll hear nothing from me about it.

[edhopper]

4. Yes Frank

free expression means you can insult the faith of others.
Being provocative is the essence of free expression.

[belzabubba333]

13. free expression means you can insult [the faith of] others. is the essence of this statement

and is reminicient of what dr laura was saying after she used her free expression - what's wrong with decency and tolerance of relgion or respect of other people's feelings

[MohRokTah]

16. When somebody cries about their religion being mocked...

it only makes me want to join in the mockery.

[nilesobek]

97. Didn't the magazine mock all religion?

Maybe that's why the Pope feels that way. At any rate, we disagree on some things but on this you are right on. This Pope had me going too until he lost me for other comments.

[MohRokTah]

99. Yep, and kudoes for it!

Religion must be mocked. It's important that religion be mocked. The more the merrier.

Mockery exposes the religion for what it is in how the religionists react to the mockery.

[Bluenorthwest]

127. The Vatican sued Hebdo around 14 times. So yeah, the Pope has an ax to grind.

The Pope, who runs an industrial scale denigration of LGBT people says it is ok to punch those who insult us. What a hypocritical man he is.

[tblue37]

167. + a brazillion!, nt

[edhopper]

25. And what do you think

if the expression of faith is offensive?
Like Gay people shouldn't be parents, or woman are inferior to men?

[lame54]

53. that's the big myth...

that want us to think that people are praying quietly in their personal belief

that would be great

except they write the laws that i have to follow

laws that are often based on their silly superstitions

[Scuba]

5. So, not infallible.

[msanthrope]

6. Lighten up, Francis.

http://m.

[Warren Stupidity]

11. Fuck that. This is why the problem is RELIGION, not just Islam.

There are no "sacred ideas", no ideas that need to be protected from ridicule. The fact that this tone deaf autocratic ruler of the largest christian church would say this while the dead from last weeks massacres are still being mourned, while religious fanatics are murdering by the thousands in west africa and the middle east is appalling.

[HappyMe]

12. Well, you can make fun of faith.

You can insult it if you want. You can also make fun of and insult the fools with colanders on their heads. If you have faith stupid insults won't change your mind.

[Generic Other]

14. Says the head of a religion that spawned the Inquisition

Have they ever acknowledged the wrongness of that behavior?

Your mother once threw rocks at my mother and tried to kill her for her beliefs, so you really have no right to get all high and mighty about limiting my reaction especially if all I do is mock you.

[seveneyes]

17. Not even against the Mothers of Faith in Army Boots Brigade?

When faith is unassailable, it become science, and even science is not free from questioning.

[F4lconF16]

162. I disagree with that.

Faith can never become science, because science is not based on faith, but on evidence. Faith can be in line with science, but it can never become science.

[SidDithers]

18. Yes, Frankie, you absolutely fucking can...

I give you Tim Minchin, wondering what is sacred:

It's long, and has bad language, but it's worth it.

Sid

[PeaceNikki]

20. And will.

If they did us all the favor of staying out of our lives with their misogynistic, homophobic controlling guilt ridden bullshit I would shut up. Until then, it's on.

[SidDithers]

24. And should...

Sid

[mmonk]

19. To a certain degree, there can be circumstances.

But you can.

[whatthehey]

21. Does the catechism still say nonbelievers are hellbound? Yes. Then this is loathsome hypocrisy

If you don't believe as I do then I say an all-loving all-powerful creator god who by definition made your soul the way it is will fry you in indescribable torture for trillions of aeons, but you can't draw a cartoon making fun of him or you're the one going too far in provoking bad feelings.

Yep that makes sense.

[Fumesucker]

22. On the other hand, the Pope continued, insulting the sexuality of others is required

Because religion is innate while people choose their sexuality.

[PeaceNikki]

23. And insulting a woman by fighting against her right to autonomy is also compulsory.

[SidDithers]

27. and boom goes the dynamite...

Well said.

Sid

[m-lekktor]

112. !!!!!

[MineralMan]

26. MineralMan: "You CAN insult the actions of others. You CAN make fun of the lies of others."

My corollary.

[PeaceNikki]

29. tl;dr version: "it's their fault they were murdered."

[1bigdude]

30. Worst thing to happen to civilization is organized religion. NT

[SammyWinstonJack]

108. +a million!

[edhopper]

31. Someone help me here

I can't remember who said it, but someone back in history said something about turning the other cheek.
Who was that again?

[merrily]

34. The "Forgive your brother seventy times seven times"" guy. Name is escaping me right now.

Jack somebody? Jack Black? No, that's not it.

Sorry. It'll probably come back to me in a minute.

[edhopper]

36. Do you think

the Pope heard of him?
It might be good for him to read up on it.

[merrily]

37. As you were posting about the other check, I was drafting Reply 32.

Do you suppose Satan was inspiring us both at the same time? Multitasking?

[edhopper]

39. It must be Satan

[merrily]

41. So many wannabe sinners, so little time.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

119. Joe?.... Joe Pesci?

[HappyMe]

45. That's pretty much it.

Make fun of it all you want. I don't have to buy the magazine, stand around listening to it or even think it's funny. That doesn't take away from the fact that people have the right to do it.

[merrily]

32. Words vs. bullets. Hurt feelings vs. end of life, bereaved relatives, frightened people and so many

other consequences. This is not, IMO, what the Pope should be saying. It's not, ""Murder is wrong, but...." It's "Murder is wrong, period."

Being tempted doesn't mean that you must react physically, or at all. Maybe the Pope needs to review the Gospel and how many times Jesus turned back temptations from his human inquisitors and from Satan. Maybe that example would have been a more appropriate go to for a pastor, than, "Even a Pope wants to punch out the lights of his best friend if his best friend insults his mother."

[Prism]

33. "he can expect a punch"

Followed up with, "it's normal."

Did the pope just apologize for religiously driven murder? Because that's what it sounded like.

[msanthrope]

44. What can the members of the clergy who protected pedophiles expect?

Take a look in the mirror, Francis.

[Prism]

46. I wonder what he'd say

When victims of molestation and assault started attacking guilty priests and their enablers. I can only assume we'd then get lectures on peace and forgiveness.

I've just lost all respect for this man.

[msanthrope]

49. I never had any to lose. He's named after Francis Xavier, not Assisi. That tells

you all you need to know.

[List left]

115. misinformation

misinformation belongs to fox spews I wish it was not on DU. I disagree with this statement from the pope but no need to attack him with a lie. Argue on the merits.


And when the votes reached two thirds, there was the usual applause, because the Pope had been elected. And he gave me a hug and a kiss, and said: “Don’t forget the poor!” And those words came to me: the poor, the poor. Then, right away, thinking of the poor, I thought of Francis of Assisi. Then I thought of all the wars, as the votes were still being counted, till the end. Francis is also the man of peace. That is how the name came into my heart: Francis of Assisi. For me, he is the man of poverty, the man of peace, the man who loves and protects creation; these days we do not have a very good relationship with creation, do we? He is the man who gives us this spirit of peace, the poor man … How I would like a Church which is poor and for the poor!

[Bluenorthwest]

132. And for the sake of accuracy he's also an anti gay speaker of trashy insults and vile rhetoric

toward many millions of people. This means that whomever he stole his name from, he's a bigoted anti choice conservative.
He insults gay people regularly, and we are better than he is so we don't punch him. We mock him. He's Pat Robertson if Pat shopped in the silken robes department.

[msanthrope]

158. Indeed..if you think that that is a truthful statement. I don't...but then again

I was educated by Jesuits.

[Pooka Fey]

35. DOH!!! 1st misstep by this Pope that I am aware of.

Usually it's not so easy to ridicule the things he says

[bhikkhu]

38. Authority always says "don't question authority"

and everyone knows how that goes - it always gets questioned. Speaking badly about religion is usually speaking realistically about the things religious people do and say, the kindest approach being humor. As said upthread - "lighten up, Francis", mostly we're being nice about it.

[Pooka Fey]

73. +1

[wavesofeuphoria]

40. Oh Frankie, I do speak badly about religions .. especially

those that are misogynistic, sexist, and racist .. and I will continue to do so. And until you, the supposed spiritual authority of your religion, denounce all the sexism and hatred in your bible, I will not let up.

Your religion and your bible insults and ridicules me on damn near every page ...

Your bible does so much more than "speaks badly about" me, "makes fun" of me, "makes a game" out of my gender ... your bible is the provocateur. For centuries the bible was quoted in defence of treating women as second class citizens. Stand up to that Frankie!

The state or government should not limit freedom of expression ... and your opinion on the topic is just that.

I also notice Frankie endorses violence against offense speech. "If my good friend Dr. Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch," Francis said.

What a clusterfuck of fucknuttery!

[flamingdem]

42. Heaven to Francis:

Yes you can! We do it all the time up here.

[Avalux]

43. I like you Francis, but your words are way off on this one.

They are not exactly promoting tolerance. Yes, there should be tolerance for people's religious views (so long as they aren't divisive), but there should also be tolerance from the religious for those who don't agree with them. All the way around people. All the way around.

[oberliner]

48. I guess you shouldn't insult Republican ideas either

That's pretty provocative as well.

[treestar]

50. He's talking about a different faith (Islam)

So I give him credit there. Awhile back Catholics would have no problem burning infidels at the stake.

[leftyladyfrommo]

54. I think he was speaking as the head of a congregation here.

I don't think he meant what he said should be law.

It is just very inconsiderate to make fun of someone else's religion. And people are really sensitive to this kind of verbal assault. And he doesn't believe in judging others.

I live in the Bible Belt and I probably disagree with the religion of 90% of the people I know. We simply know that it is a loaded subject and we don't talk about it.

The same with politics. We mostly don't agree on anything. Mostly it's me who doesn't let it become an issue because I like these people and want to stay friends with them.

[oberliner]

79. But don't you criticize Republican politics?

It's that inconsiderate as well?

[leftyladyfrommo]

103. I don't discuss politics.

Except here on DU.

It's impossible to discuss politics here without starting a fight. The arguments are never constructive. No one ever changes their mind and people just all get upset.

There is no point to be made.

[oberliner]

114. "Except here on DU" being the key phrase

You like to have a place where you can feel free to criticize Republicans without being accused of being hateful or provocative. Fair?

[leftyladyfrommo]

168. I'm not too much on criticizing anyone.

But I do like to just examine the issues and get other opinions on them. I like to play with ideas more than anything. And I can do that here. There are always provocative discussions going on.

There are so many conservatives here. They aren't mainstream Republican at all. These people believe that the world was created by God 5,000 years ago. It's a very scary thing but most of their children are home schooled. They also firmly believe that Obama is going to declare martial law and take over as a dictator. Oh, and the military is building guillotines to behead the true believers at the time of the coming Apocalypse.

Now do you understand why I don't talk religion or politics with these people? If I ever ran into just a mainstream plain old Republican I would be happy to discuss stuff.

[oberliner]

169. That makes sense

Thanks for the response.

[Bluenorthwest]

137. Except that he insults and degrads LGBT people regularly, it's a full verbal assault carried out by

him and by his Bishops and that degradation is written into his dogmas. He says gay people are disordered and must not have relationships, he says our rights are Satan's idea. Then he says that if you insult someone they get to punch you. Hypocrite of the Century.

[Arugula Latte]

57. Religion is a big steaming pantload.

See, Frankie, I just did.

[DLevine]

58. Silly pope. Of course we can.

I don't respect misogynists or homophobes.

[wheniwasincongress]

60. That's nice.

"And what happens to them is what would happen to Dr. Gasparri if he says a curse word against my mother"

Excusing violence because, well, you deserved it for insulting or making fun of religion! I never dug this guy and I'm glad other liberals are coming around.

[libdem4life]

61. Oh how I'd like to see the Pope punch someone in the face. Jesus said there is only ONE COMMANDMENT

Love your neighbor as yourself. The End. The human race, I fear, regardless of race, creed, or religion, is incapable of that. It's all downhill from there.

[ChosenUnWisely]

65. No problem as long as those with faith do not try to codify ANY aspects of religion into public law

or those of faith do not get in my face or in the face of others, coexistence is possible.

As it stands now there are many, many people of faith all over the world who are not interested in coexistence at all if their faith is not the controlling faith of the population.

[brooklynite]

68. Psalm 14:1 "The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile"

I'm insulted

[HappyMe]

77. lol! Good.

[WillowTree]

69. Well.......you can, but don't be surprised if you don't like the response you get.

Too many people these days seem to think that having freedom of speech means that they can say any unkind or even insulting thing to whomever they please and never see any unpleasant consequences. And they're wrong about that.

[oberliner]

81. Should we temper our criticism of Republicans similarly?

And not be surprised if liberal/progressive organizations are attacked? Just chalk it up to unpleasant consequences?

[HappyMe]

92. Criticism without a whole bunch of pointless insults is one thing.

Criticism based entirely on insults is another thing entirely. Going the insult way can be fun, but it doesn't actually do anything or change minds.

[WillowTree]

100. I didn't say that I thought that anyone has to temper their criticisms of anything.

Just don't be surprised at the response that you get when you sling insults at people.

[oberliner]

116. It just sounds like a "blame the cartoonists for their murder" sort of post

I'm sure you don't mean it that way, but it comes off that way a bit.

[WillowTree]

124. No, it's not a matter of blaming the cartoonists.

It's just a matter of acknowledging that we can't control how someone else will react to the things that we say or do. There's no justification whatsoever for what the response was to their cartoons. None. That said, the fact that radical Islamists react badly to images of their prophet, let alone images that ridicule said prophet isn't exactly a secret. So yes, what happened was horrific and unjustifiable, but not surprising considering recent history. They were taking a chance and they had to have known it.

[oberliner]

139. And Charles Manson thought the Beatles were telling him to kill Sharon Tate

That doesn't mean that The White Album was a provocation.

[WillowTree]

140. Total non sequitur. But thanks for playing.

[oberliner]

141. Dang I thought it was pretty clever

I will try harder next time.

My point was - just because someone thinks they are being provoked doesn't mean they are actually being provoked.

An image of Mohammed that is respectful, tasteful, and not at all obscene is not a provocation just because some people say it is.

[WillowTree]

157. Does it matter to the dead whether or not they're "actually" being provoked.......

.......if they think they are and act on it?

You don't have to "actually" be trying to provoke someone to provoke them if they perceive provocation. One more time, whether or not the cartoonists were trying to provoke the monsters who murdered them, the monsters were nonetheless provoked. And, also one more time, this reaction is consistent with prior behaviors of radical Islamists, so, while it's terribly sad tragic, it shouldn't come as a super sized surprize.

[LittleBlue]

148. That has nothing to do with what Willow said. nt

[oberliner]

149. Here's how I think it does

Just because someone responds a certain way to something doesn't mean there is anything inherent in that thing causing the response.

So just like there is nothing about the White Album to provoke a person to commit murders (even though someone claims that it does), there is nothing about a cartoon drawing of the prophet that is similarly provocative.

[cilla4progress]

71. Well, I think you CAN

but it is culturally ethnocentric and disrespectful. Though not punishable by death.

If everyone just lived the golden rule ...

[oberliner]

82. If everyone just lived the golden rule ...

...then DU would not exist.

[cilla4progress]

89. hahaha

[MohRokTah]

83. Fuck the Pedophile Protecter Pope in a pointy hat. eom

[cilla4progress]

86. ewww

blocking buh bye

see how that censorship thingy works?

[MohRokTah]

90. If your faith cannot withstand mockery, you have no faith. eom

[phil89]

120. You don't think he protected

Pedophiles?? You're kidding right?

[ismnotwasm]

88. Well you can do it, it's rude as hell in certain circumstances

Perfectly legitimate in others. Personally I try not to. Some go out of their way to do little else

[truebrit71]

91. Um, yeah Mr. Popey, ya can...

...So if you say something provocative about someone's religion you should expect "a punch"....

Way to blame the victims there your Pope-ness...



(The fact that his mom was real, and religions are about make-believe characters are a discussion for another day...)

[Agnosticsherbet]

95. I admire Pope Francis for Bringing the Catholic Chruch into the 19th century. But he is wrong about

freedom of expression.

[Codeine]

102. Suck it, Francis. I can and do. nt

[MohRokTah]

105. Matthew 5:44

No, Mr. Popety Pope. I would not expect a punch. I would expect a BLESSING. IT would be the Christlike thing to do.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

[trumad]

154. Just wanted to say I love your posts.

[MoonRiver]

113. Oh yes I can!

[Throd]

117. Dear Pope, Your bible is a less entertaining version of "Lord of the Rings".

Love, Throd

[SidDithers]

118. Quick. Get Pope Photo Op out there to wash some feet...

or kiss a leper or something!!

Maybe he can deliver food in his shitbox Renault.

We need a change of subject. The Papal PR Team needs to spring into action.

Sid

[phil89]

121. Faith is belief without evidence

It's not a good thing. It should be ridiculed as pointless and immature.

[Xilantro]

130. Say that to Martin Luther King Jr. nt

[Marrah_G]

122. Bullshit

[Bluenorthwest]

125. The very picture of religious hypocrisy. The Pope speaks very badly about LGBT people and

has taken many specific political actions against us. He insults, offends and his Bishops are far worse about it. Religious people like the Pope are in reality the speakers of the bulk of the insulting words hurled at others around the world. No religion is innocent of this. And it is not just LGBT people, we all know that some religions also speak ill of other faith groups.
But to hear a man who constantly says negative things about others as part of his own religious practice say that insults deserve a punch in the face makes me want to punch him in the face. The Pope should not mistake the fact that I, as a good person, do not punch him for insulting my community for any sort of acceptance or agreement with his offensive words nor as a sign that he has the right to speak that way. It is simple mature tolerance that keeps those so constantly insulted by religious figures from actually punching them, as Francis says he would do if he were us. He insults mothers among us, he does that all the time in a way that suggests he gives no thought at all to what he is spewing so recklessly.
So he should not mistake our Christian charity toward him, our tolerance of his rights as anything other than grace extended to him by better more loving communities.
The hypocrisy just makes me sick.

[AlbertCat]

133. "You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others."

Uh... yes you can. It's easy!

[Trillo]

134. Francis created a rather large strawman.

If you're dealing with an individual who practices the same in turn, respect of beliefs, then yes, I agree. And that is how most people seem to act in their daily, non-employed lives. Live and let live. Most-to-many people, not all.

However, at an institutional level, what we have with Christianity is a mandatory structure of them constantly telling us how we should live our lives, and this always in accordance with their faith. With them creating even long-term societal customs which saturate their beliefs onto others. Thus, at an institutional level, what Francis is calling for is hypocrisy: Them as institutions telling us individuals how we should live, but us not being allowed to cry "Foul" in response. They start this in their cruel religious schools with very young children. Spank spank spank.

So, basically, what Francis has done is create a Strawman. He's said what is important in individual relations is the same as what is important in institutional relations, and in institutional to individual and individual to institutional relations -- yet it is the outspoken and right-leaning Christian churches who continually flaunt this.

Thus the response of silence in the face of such Christian contempt is inappropriate.

[arcane1]

138. Fuck you, Frank, and your mother too. What you are not supposed to do is PUNCH PEOPLE.

Your religious beliefs are no more protected from criticism than any other opinion.

I can't believe this asshole advocates violent responses to criticism

[Zorra]

142. (NSFW) Let's make a deal, all ye faithful. I promise not to insult your religion if

all y'all promise to recognize that I, and every other woman, have full sovereignty over my/our own bodies, and that you will never do anything, directly or indirectly, to prevent me or another woman from preventing or terminating an unwanted pregnancy if that is our choice.

You must also promise to recognize that women are fully equal to men, and that they have same full equal rights in all areas of existence, including the equal right within your faith based organization(s) to be ordained as priests, imams, bishops, popes, Grand Wazoos, whatever, etc.

You must also promise to recognize that women and/or LGBT persons are not "evil" or "sinful" because they are natural born women and/or LGBT, and that you will do nothing directly or indirectly to prevent women and/or LGBT from having equal rights to non-LGBT, non-female/other persons in all areas of existence.

You must also promise never to encourage, promote, fund, or engage in individual or organized group "faith based" imperialistic acts of violence, such as crusades, inquisitions, witch burnings, or supporting the efforts of malicious, authoritarian governments to dehumanize and repress, oppress, or persecute, women, LGBT, or any other group because of their gender, race, color, sexual orientation, creed, etc.

If you can't do these things, then it becomes clear that you don't have the slightest notion of what love is, and your religion is nothing but egocentric, power and control driven authoritarian smoke and hypocrisy, and I reserve the right, to freely insult your malicious, destructive organization and beliefs whenever and wherever I see fit, and consider it my obligation to prevent you from harming innocent people.

Expect it. If the thing that you consider your "faith" leads you to deny innocent others their equal humanity, and causes direct or collateral harm to innocent people, then your faith is nothing but an irrational lunatic and pathetic self-justification for your own hatreds and needs for security and false superiority to others.

But don't take my word for it; I'm just doing my best to consider this entire conundrum from the perspective of the dude you claim to follow ~

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

Religious Ties


Anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.


"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar."




"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."


Next up in our Tough Love™ series is Part One of "Saudi Arabia: "Institutionalized Hatred and Oppression of Women and LGBT Resulting From Authoritarian Religion Based Islamic Governments."

"Preventing people from deliberately harming innocent others because they believe their religion demands it is not religious persecution, it is simple common human decency, and hate is bad for children everywhere. So please, don't burn me, ok? It really hurts."

[Warren DeMontague]

161. Never fucking happen, because telling OTHER people what to do is hard-baked into fundamentalism.

Which strenuously limits the amount of 'respect' many of us are willing to accord them as belief systems.

[cemaphonic]

144. Says the head of state of a theocracy that was created by Mussolini

Gonna take his ideas about free expression with a grain of salt, even if he is an improvement on the previous Pope.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

145. yes, we can. nt

[HughBeaumont]

147. Believers of Republican Economic Policies have this same mantra!

"Teh Freeee Markitz" Snake Oil and Blather is just as much a religion as any.

Hmmmmmmmmm.

[bluestateguy]

151. Yes, you can

And I will do it again too.

#DoubleDown

[SwankyXomb]

155. Oh Frankie, of course we can

But I wouldn't expect anything less from the PR flack of a cult that specializes in money laundering and child rape.

[Warren DeMontague]

160. Oh, well, that settles that.

Seeing as it comes from the same moral authority that has spent millions in its parishioners' tithes helping child abusers escape international prosecution.

[tblue37]

165. Well, well--how very "turn-the-other-cheek" Christlike of him. nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

166. keep in mind this is NOT a statement about government policy. It is a pastoral religious statement

appealing to believers