Criticizing religion is different from criticizing the religious.

[alp227]

I wanted to post this in response to NanceGregg's OP. NG does have valid points, such as...

When it comes to religion - or the choice to not have one at all - no one's mind is changed by ridicule. No one is "enlightened" by being mocked. No one is dissuaded away from personally-held beliefs as the result of being laughed at, or told they are clinging to superstition.

My personal feelings on religion are the same as they are on other issues: If you don't condone same-sex relationships, don't enter into one. If you think abortion is murder, don't have one. If you think religion is nonsense, don't practice one.

However, I must disagree with a lot of it, as well.

What I don't understand is anyone's need to ridicule others' religions. It serves no purpose. It accomplishes nothing. It changes nothing. The only end result possible (or probable) is that it offends, and can be extremely hurtful to those who feel deeply about their faith.

So where should the line be drawn between legitimate criticism and ridicule? Everyone has their own standards about that. In my perspective, lots of people equate any criticism as offensive. For instance, right wing pundit Jason Mattera has said, "I take pride in my conservative and Christian beliefs. When you come against those beliefs, it’s like you’re coming against me as a person." I can't reason with those people.

But is "it hurts others' feelings" a real logical argument for why something is the wrong thing to do? For example, I know that it offends Justin Bieber fans if I say, "Justin Bieber is talentless." However, it's not illogical/immoral/wrong if I can make an argument to back my statement. And I acknowledge that it's offensive to some to call religion a "fairy tale", but for someone like me who's a nonbeliever, it's "calling it as it is" (again, in making instead of having an argument, it is true that religious belief shares elements of mythology/folktales).

NG does acknowledge in the end that perception of religious ideas and perception of religious people ought to be different. But who is seriously arguing in favor of trashing people for their religious beliefs? WHO?

And sure, I'd like the Democratic Party to support the needs of all people not just the privileged/favored in society. But shouldn't open-mindedness to differing ideas and critical thinking be progressive values, too? (I stress "critical thinking" in response to the right wing troll "SHOULDN'T LIBERALS BE TOLERANT OF EVERYTHING?" non-argument - "critical thinking" means throwing in the garbage opinions that are worthless or beyond wrong, such as "Obama is a Muslim" or "Sandy Hook was a hoax".)

[Skittles]

1. so bigotry, misogyny, homophobia is fine as long as you're not part of the religion?

we should be OK with it because we don't have to join?
WTF kind of shyte is THAT?

[alp227]

3. Where did I say that? nt

[Skittles]

4. you didn't but that original OP sure did

"My personal feelings on religion are the same as they are on other issues: If you don't condone same-sex relationships, don't enter into one." - F*** THAT

I will not tolerate homophobia for ANY reason, INCLUDING RELIGION

[alp227]

8. So what's your alternative argument? I don't understand. nt

[Skittles]

9. I'm fine with bigots not being part of a same-sex marriage

I am NOT fine with not being able to criticize or mock those same bigots and their religion

[alp227]

11. Being homophobic is a reason to shit on someone. Merely religious? no. nt

[Skittles]

13. never mind, waste of fucking time

[ND-Dem]

14. There are plenty of religious people who aren't homophobic.

[Skittles]

15. yet many of them support religious institutions that openly endorse misogyny and homphobia

go figure

[ND-Dem]

17. no actually, many of them don't.

[Skittles]

18. I AM REFERRING TO THE ONES WHO DO

if they talk bullshit and support institutions that openly endorse bullshit THEY'RE GETTING CALLED OUT

and I am DONE here- WASTE OF FUCKING TIME

[ND-Dem]

19. people who support anti-gay institutions typically don't talk about how they support

gay people.

[PeaceNikki]

5. And I'll repost my rant here.

It's about attempts to inject these horrible beliefs
into society, governments and law. As it stands, religions threaten autonomy and human rights

I personally vow, here and now, publicly to STFU and never speak another unkind word about religion when they leave us alone.

We, the mockers, are not trying to stop anyone from practicing religion, we want religion to stop pushing it's archaic, hateful, homophobic and misogynistic ideal onto us as a society and into our laws.

The minute that organized religion leaves our autonomy and human rights alone, that's the minute I will stop criticizing and mocking them.

Til then, it's on.

And add to it: even "passive" believers who are part of larger organizations contribute to the harm they cause buy supporting them financially and by their alignment with the them.

[Skittles]

6. you know it PeaceNikki

OMG I cannot believe the utter CRAP I have been reading on DU lately

people can believe anything they want but DO NOT tell us they cannot be called out for bullshit

[PeaceNikki]

7. The mental gymnastics that must go on in their heads is a sight to behold.

I stand with you and all women and my LGBT and all noon religious brethren.

[Augustus]

2. You can't reason with irrational people, period

The religious mind is similar to a two year old throwing a temper tantrum. You can't reason with a two year old throwing a temper tantrum, you can only let it happen until she gets tired and distracted by something else. Somebody who becomes furious over a cartoon can't be reasoned with.

[Prism]

10. DU has been trashing Christians since its inception

This new pose is simply because criticism of Islam has caused a cognitive dissonance between people who want to hate the religious (the Christian Right) and want to protect vulnerable Muslims in the West (a noble goal).

So, to resolve that over the top hypocrisy required by a shallow position, the switch has been flipped to, "Don't be mean to religion!" because it was the most convenient argument at hand. Which, seriously? The same people that have made so many minorities miserable from time immemorial? Don't be mean about it? Good grief.

Don't worry. The France story will pass, people will stop thinking about Islam so much, and the people doing all this lecturing will go back to mocking the Christian Right.

There's nothing actually under all this hot air. No principle or actual position anyone will stick to beyond the DU Thread of the Week cycle. It's like watching people flash gang signs to let everyone else know that they're better than everyone else, and totally above mocking and ridicule.

Except until next week.

[uriel1972]

12. if you say so...nt

[ND-Dem]

16. Wrong.