Aesop Story

[H2O Man]

“Living Christ means a living cross; without it, life is a living death.”
-- Gandhi


Many years ago, I used the above Gandhi quote in a DU:GD discussion about the role of “religion” in “politics.” I do so again today, not in an attempt to discuss religion per say, but rather, as a contribution to the current discussion about the tensions between religion and politics. Hence, my OP is consciously intended for a DU:GD discussion, as opposed to a DU religion/ spirituality commentary.

Call this mere speculation on my part, if you will, but I think that most DU community members recognize that individuals such as Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr., made important contributions to the political world that they inhabited. Even if a person strongly disagrees with the stances they took, or some other aspect of their life -- including their religions -- it should be apparent that they made influential contributions to their nations. More, it is obvious that their personal belief systems influenced their long-term goals, as well as the approaches each took to attempt to reach those goals.

It is also true that “religion” and religious people have been among the most serious of threats to various societies. That definitely has been the case in the United States, from 1776 to the present. The connection between religion and the vicious acts in Paris serve as a reminder of how dangerous and explosive the combination of religion and politics can be.

Indeed, both religion and politics have the inherent potential for violence. This alone does not mean that either are “bad,” in and of themselves. It does mean that each has the potential for being used for good or for bad. It is how people channel their internal being, as individuals and as groups, that determines the potential outcomes.

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I remember when I posted that Gandhi quote, way back when, that another D.U.er found it offensive. Very offensive, in fact. S/he apparently “googled” the quote, but could not find it. S/he then demanded a link to my source. One of my many, many unattractive qualities is a form of stubbornness: if someone demands I do something, I often make a game out of refusing to meet their needs. Thus, I did not inform that person that it was Philip Berrigan who had included Gandhi’s quote from Christmas Day, 1931, in a 1983 letter that he wrote me.

In my opinion, both Philip and Daniel Berrigan made some of the most important contributions to the turbulent politics of the 1960s and ‘70s. Were I a stronger person, I would have used them for the most influential of role models in terms of my own contributions to the world of politics. When talking to them back in my younger years, I remember feeling as if I were in the presence of higher beings, alien to our culture, trying to communicate a better way of life that was essential to our species’ survival.

In recent years, by the way, the person who challenged me on the Gandhi quote and I have become friends. In my opinion, very good friends. We’ve laughed about those long-past disagreements; s/he summed it up quite well, I think, by saying, “Who knew?”

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In my life’s experiences, I’ve never witnessed a fox attempting to eat grapes. But I do understand why a black slave from Africa, living in ancient Greece, would teach truths by way of fables/ parables. It has long been the preferred method of minorities who are oppressed by empire. I do not need to see Aesop’s birth certificate to know he was from Egypt.

Thus, my appreciation for this slave’s wisdom doesn’t include any rituals with fox nor grapes. Likewise, I can appreciate the wisdom of another man who used the same general teaching methods, at the edge of the Roman empire. The inspiration I get does not require stained glass windows, nor a driver’s license from Kenya. More, I do not believe in Santa Claus, any more than I believe that a politician is going to come down the great chimney in the sky, and bring about peace and justice and good will hunting in Washington, DC.

But I am convinced that, if enough of us put our energies into an effort to find common ground, that we will reach higher ground in the process. This cannot happen if we remain focused to the point of an unhealthy obsession with other folk’s belief systems. We should be investing our energies in building up, not tearing down.

This, of course, is just my opinion.

Peace,
H2O Man

[el_bryanto]

1. Very well stated.

Unfortunately, most people on all sides of the fence want to defeat their rhetorical enemies rather than find common ground. I wish I weren't one of them.

Bryant

[H2O Man]

2. I do not think

that you are "one of them." You generally strike me as reasonable, and participating in rational discussion about various topics.

[H2O Man]

3. DU:GD is an

interesting place. At its best, it allows for the opportunity to have in-depth discussions and even spirited debates, about such a wide range of issues.

While I'm not seeking an argument, I'm open to debating the benefits and dangers of mixing religion and politics. I think I can do a fair job taking either the "pro" or "con" position. It's the type of topic where, in general, there are not "right" or "wrong" points of view -- we can all take the same group of facts, and interpret them differently. And, based upon our unique, individual experiences, our opinions may be very different from the next person's.

A good discussion/ debate can be a very positive thing. It would appear to have much more benefit, than some of the uncivil arguments that are currently underway.

[MisterP]

7. it's like being a German historian in a room full of people yelling "the Nazis were SOCIALIST! it's

in their NAME, see!"

[H2O Man]

8. Interesting.

I think that any objective examination of the impact of religion mixed with politics has to take into account the large amount of good and bad. That proves difficult, at times, because participants in the discussion can include non-objective people, who either belong to one of the religions being discussed, or have been subjected to the negative influences of a given faith.

I recognize that I am, like most people, incapable of being totally objective. My father, for example, was Catholic, and attempted to force his religion upon his children. Religion that is based upon fear, force, and violence rarely brings out the best potential in people.

As a parent, I attempted to expose my children to different religious schools of thought, with full confidence in their ability to decide for themselves what -- if any -- religious belief system works for them. My oldest son is an atheist; however, our basic value systems, including a respect for and fascination with science, and a love of humanity, are very similar. We both enjoyed doing "social work," and advocating for poor people.

I am convinced that "god" is most often found among poor people. My son has other words to describe what I call "god" -- truth, caring, sharing, and compassion, come to mind. Likewise, while we might have different words to describe our own weaknesses, I think we both try to be aware of our own shortcomings, quirks, etc.

From just that very small example, I'm convinced that it is possible to have interesting and meaningful discussions on the subject.

[MisterP]

9. careful: that sorta nuance, depth, and attempt to understand what's at stake is gonna get ya

called an apologist

[H2O Man]

10. That would be

better than some of the other things I've been called here over the years! (grin)

[sabrina 1]

21. We are all being manipulated imo. Some of us understand that, others haven't figured it out yet, and

then there are those who are part of the manipulation process.

It's not hard to see that what happened in France has overtaken pretty much everything important that was happening here before that terrible tragedy.

There was, eg, momentum to reform the way this country is policed. We had our own tragedies here, young, African American men and even a child, gunned down by 'law enforcement', finally sparking what was shaping up to be, as some of those who were around in the time of MLK, called a much needed Civil Rights Movement.

There was a terror attack on the offices of the NAACP. And despite the petulant behavior of the NYPD towards the protesters and Mayor de Blasio, the protests continued around the country. But you wouldn't know it unless you were looking.

The MSM and Western World Leaders decided that the tragedy in France was more important than the terror attack on the NAACP AND the horrific, brutal mass killings in Africa.

It's not hard to see why. Two words, 'terror' and 'Muslim'! And more war.

We can decide not to be manipulated, or blindly follow the lead of the manipulators.

As one of my least favorite world leaders once said 'Murder is murder is murder'. But if you throw religion into the mix, it is guaranteed to distract from everything else.

It has worked beautifully so far.

Thank you for yet another thoughtful OP.

[malaise]

4. I have this discussion often with my childhood friend

She knows my views on all religions but it is true that at the 'local' level, there is good done by some folks in a variety of religions. My favorite cousin was heavy into liberation theology and he was as socialist as they come before he was murdered by RW goons.

[H2O Man]

5. One of the areas

that I have a strong interest in, is jail/prison reform. There is, as I know that you know, a huge prison-industrial complex that capitalizes on the ignorance of specific segments of the US's population, by keeping them incarcerated.

Some of the best work that I've done in that area involved coordinating efforts with Father James Nurphey, who lived in Albany, NY. He was a Cathic priest, who was elected to serve in the NYS Assembly. He was all about liberation theology.

I've also been thinking a lot recently of the Long House. The historic figure known in Iroquois society is called the Peace-Maker. His actual name (and those of some of his contemporaries) is known. But it isn't spoken, except in specific ceremonies.It's not that he was other-than-human; it's that he was human -- and delivered a divine message.

He llived about the time of the historic figure, Jesus. Their message is very similar. Both of them taught the ultimate in liberation theology.

This use of the Peace-Maker's name is intended to honor him and his message of peace. But we would never think to attack anyone who used it in public. The Power of Ideas includes honoring that which is good .... very different than the ideas and beliefs of those who attacked the cartoon-makers in Paris, or those who frequently say "Jesus this" or "Jesus that."

There are distinct advantages to having a system that promotes respect. But it is also true that many people will abuse their religion. And there are many people who do not require a social system to highlight their better potentials.

[GeorgeGist]

6. In my opinion God doesn't deserve credit ...

or blame for anything.

[H2O Man]

11. Self-kick, as opposed

to kicking-self. Both have associations with organized religion, of course, and tend to represent the polar opposite experiences on a flat, 2-D graph.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. “God has no religion” Gandhi

[H2O Man]

13. Right.

I suspect that S/He doesn't follow American sports much, either.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. It's rather ridiculous when you think about it.

Here we are living on a speck in the universe with the belief that some super deity spends His/Her/Its time fretting about our doings/thoughts/foibles.

Conclusion:

a) There is no God
b) God is an Idiot
c) Humans are egotists for thinking the above

[H2O Man]

15. A few years back,

I was talking to my good friend, Bruce (not to be confused with my lady friend's dog, also named Bruce), about this very subject. He is an atheist, with one of the sharpest, best-educated minds I have had the pleasure of encountering. As we were sitting outside, on a beautiful summer's night, I was able to point to the stars in the sky, and ask, "Doesn't the majesty of the heavens convince you that we human beings, as God's greatest creation, are at the exact center of His universe?"

Although Bruce responded by calling me a "jackass," I do not tell this story in an attempt to show that atheists are as prone to violence as religious rabid-right-wingers. In truth, my feelings were not even bruised -- we were both laughing throughout the conversation.

The Lakota holy man Black Elk, though not a scientist, accurately noted that everywhere on Earth is at the planet's exact center. It is always an error in perception to believe that this makes one's place more important than the next person's -- for that is not the potential power realized in understanding what that "center" means. Rather, it is the miracle of life, of our having our turn, where ever we happen to be, for a certain number of rides on this living rock that spins around the sun. And that's really cool, no matter if one tends to view it in the context of religion, or science, or any blending of the two that enhances their turn.

[kentuck]

16. I was born in 1947, in a world of turmoil...

Gandhi has always been the most interesting historical figure to me. He would die early in 1948. He was a spiritual thinker who wanted others to think spiritually. From time to time, it seems our human race needs someone that embodies peace, in order to keep us from wandering into a black hole of violence. In my opinion, it is good that the light is there.

"Doesn't the majesty of the heavens convince you that we human beings, as God's greatest creation, are at the exact center of His universe?"

Are "we" truly God's greatest creation?? Do we have dominion over all of God's creatures? Or is that only a scripture from a religious book?

Thanks for the post H2O Man.

Peace to All.

[H2O Man]

17. Very interesting.

I just got off the phone, after talking with an old friend from high school. After school, he joined the service; got kicked out; and lived in society's margins for years. He ended up in state prison twice, before eventually turning his life around. He's a good family man now; with a nice wife, and they have four children, all young adults.

My friend has never fully re-integrated into society. His wife is a doctor, and he has run their family farm in Kentucky. One of his passions is rescuing horses. I don't know all the details, but when we were just talking, he said that some people think he is crazy -- they say things like, "Wouldn't that horse make better dog food?" But Harold recognizes horses as beings. Not human beings, but beings with close relationships with humans.

Over the past decade, he's turned their family farm into a place where "at risk" teens spend time. These are primarily youngsters with legal problems, and all of whom have inadequate parenting. The type of kids our society is too willing to throw away, to sacrifice to the prison-industrial complex. And Harold has a program that is able to re-direct some of these youngsters' lives; even in the other cases, it at least provides them with a couple of months worth of life experiences different than the abuse and violence they've called home.

Harold was telling me about how horses interact with these kids. I really don't have much background with horses -- cows, I know. But the things he was telling me were fascinating. I'm not saying "miracles," as he was describing everyday interactions.

I think about that, and your on-point question: do we have dominion over all of God's creatures? Now, Harold is 100% Christian. So he'd likely say yes, although he views it in terms of responsibility -- for animals, for plants, and for the soil, air, and water. My life's experiences include some Christianity -- and I have no difficulty in viewing the historical figure Jesus in the contexts of Onondaga or (early) Irish culture.

I think that there are advantages to viewing and understanding humanity as closely connected to the entire web, or systems of life's energies, here on earth. And taking responsibility to live in harmony with "nature." I've never been comfortable with western civilization's self-image as separate from "the wild."

If by chance humans are God's care-takers of the earth, we're doing a pretty poor job of it.

As always, I enjoy communicating with you here. You are one of the community members that I'd love to meet in "real" life. Hang out near my pond some day ....

Peace to you & yours!

[kentuck]

20. I now live...

...in Colorado and do not drift too far from the shore.

But, I always find your posts most interesting.

Keep on the sunny side.

[ananda]

18. I think of Aesop and Christ as legendary..

.. products of the rumor and gossip mills, names to attach to
a composite "person" made up over many years with various
qualities and achievements attached to him... by various
authors.

[H2O Man]

19. Interesting.

Safe to say that the individuals know as St. Patrick and Lao Tse were composites. And as "Aesop" is a description (Egyptian&quot as is Lao Tse, that's certainly possible.

But realistically: how many tall, blonde-haired, blue-eyed, Homo Europaeus guys named "Jesus" would have been running around Jerusalem at that time?