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Sat Jan 31, 2015, 01:40 PM

Yes, Virginia there ARE Two Sides to Vaccines

And neither of them is anti-vaxx.

One of the most important tasks of public health is disease prevention. So, the number one priority of public health officials around the world is to make sure that people have access to safe and effective vaccines and that they get these vaccines. When we have an outbreak of a deadly disease like measles in the US or polio in the Middle East, public health's number one, two and three top jobs are to promote those vaccines. Period.

Then, once the epidemic is under control and the disease is no longer a threat, public health must encourage researchers to develop newer, more effective vaccines for the many infectious diseases that plague us. Remember, not all vaccines are the best vaccines that will ever be developed for a certain disease. The old horse serum rabies vaccines made people sick. The old Hep B vaccines were culled from the blood of winos and drug addicts. The old measles vaccine did not prevent measles. The first rota-virus vaccines had to be pulled from the shelf. However, at the time they were marketed, the inferior quality vaccine was all that was available. So, yes, I took my Hep B vaccine culled from the blood of winos, despite being aware of the risks, because as a medical student I did not want to get Hep B and I did not feel like waiting a few years to see if something better came down the pipeline---I needed that immunity then.

To those who are not immune to measles, this is a scary bad disease. While we do not see it much anymore, in my three decades of medical practice, the sickest people with viral infections that I have seen have had measles. One young woman ended up in the ICU with measles pneumonia. A healthy young woman. So, you want your child or young adult son or daughter to end up in the ICU with measles pneumonia? BTW, if you are younger than me--i.e. in your forties, thirties or twenties---you might want to have a measles titer done to see if you are immune. The measles cases I see are always in adults who either never got vaccinated or got one dose of vaccine so many decades ago that they lost their immunity. Most (but not all) children that I see are fully immunized, it's their parents who are the walking time bombs. As far as I am concerned, we ought to be offering every adult under 50 or 60 a free dose of MMR right now (with a few exceptions such as those who are attempting pregnancy or immune compromised). If you are not a member of one of those special groups, you should join the immune herd to protect those who can not get the vaccine.

I have one word for anti--vaxxers: tetanus. All the herd immunity in the world will not save your child from lockjaw if he or she steps on a rusty nail.

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Arrow 79 replies Author Time Post
Reply Yes, Virginia there ARE Two Sides to Vaccines (Original post)
McCamy Taylor Jan 2015 OP
Mnemosyne Jan 2015 #1
Treant Jan 2015 #9
Hekate Jan 2015 #2
CaliforniaPeggy Jan 2015 #3
onehandle Jan 2015 #4
abelenkpe Jan 2015 #5
shenmue Jan 2015 #6
ismnotwasm Jan 2015 #7
mountain grammy Jan 2015 #8
Aristus Jan 2015 #21
PADemD Jan 2015 #10
daredtowork Jan 2015 #11
stevenleser Jan 2015 #25
daredtowork Jan 2015 #32
Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #36
Journeyman Jan 2015 #12
Barack_America Jan 2015 #17
Journeyman Jan 2015 #22
Barack_America Jan 2015 #23
Journeyman Jan 2015 #27
Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #38
Demeter Jan 2015 #13
Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #14
Demeter Jan 2015 #29
Demeter Jan 2015 #31
Liberal Veteran Jan 2015 #40
uppityperson Jan 2015 #52
McCamy Taylor Jan 2015 #15
Thor_MN Jan 2015 #43
Demeter Jan 2015 #44
Adrahil Jan 2015 #46
Demeter Jan 2015 #49
Adrahil Feb 2015 #59
Thor_MN Jan 2015 #48
uppityperson Jan 2015 #53
Barack_America Jan 2015 #16
REP Jan 2015 #18
McCamy Taylor Jan 2015 #19
AwakeAtLast Jan 2015 #20
myrna minx Feb 2015 #72
myrna minx Feb 2015 #74
Vattel Jan 2015 #24
stevenleser Jan 2015 #26
Vattel Jan 2015 #28
CaliforniaPeggy Jan 2015 #30
Maedhros Feb 2015 #76
xmas74 Jan 2015 #33
proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #34
Thor_MN Jan 2015 #50
proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #54
Thor_MN Feb 2015 #55
proverbialwisdom Feb 2015 #57
Thor_MN Feb 2015 #58
proverbialwisdom Feb 2015 #60
Thor_MN Feb 2015 #63
proverbialwisdom Feb 2015 #64
Thor_MN Feb 2015 #66
proverbialwisdom Feb 2015 #65
proverbialwisdom Feb 2015 #67
NuclearDem Feb 2015 #68
proverbialwisdom Feb 2015 #69
NuclearDem Feb 2015 #71
Thor_MN Feb 2015 #75
proverbialwisdom Feb 2015 #78
Thor_MN Feb 2015 #79
blackcrow Jan 2015 #35
Liberal Veteran Jan 2015 #37
LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #41
LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #42
REP Feb 2015 #62
stevenleser Jan 2015 #47
Recursion Feb 2015 #56
Maedhros Feb 2015 #77
vankuria Jan 2015 #39
Aerows Jan 2015 #45
Avalux Jan 2015 #51
MineralMan Feb 2015 #61
backscatter712 Feb 2015 #70
Kingofalldems Feb 2015 #73

Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 01:42 PM

1. My ggUncle died from tetanus, sounds like a horrific way to go. nt

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Response to Mnemosyne (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 02:26 PM

9. It is.

Ask a nurse sometime. If they've seen a case (they're fortunately rare) they usually won't say too much about it. Nobody really needs that memory stuck in their head for the day. I'd rather be torn apart by rabid wild dogs (or just get rabies) than get tetanus.

For that reason, I have my tetanus shot every seven years (as a gardener, my potential for exposure is much higher than average) and run to the doctor if I get a severe puncture wound for a shot even if it's only been four years.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 01:46 PM

2. Kicking this for Science

Thank you.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 01:46 PM

3. Thank you for your very rational and well-thought-out post!

I wish the idiots who oppose vaccinations could read it.

K&R

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 01:59 PM

4. My doctor invaded my body with a tetanus booster last year.

I feel so victimized by the medical school educated monster.


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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 02:16 PM

5. K&R

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 02:19 PM

6. Yay reality

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 02:21 PM

7. Nice!

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 02:26 PM

8. Good post..

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #8)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:38 PM

21. Agreed, with one exception:

the 'rusty nail' part. One doesn't contract tetanus from a rusty nail. You can step on all of the rusty nails in the world. If they aren't contaminated with clostridium tetany, you won't get tetanus.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)


Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 02:37 PM

11. The other side of the polygon

I think this issue needs to stop being discussed in a unilaterally condescending Science vs. Nutjobs way.

Rather, I think scientists - particularly in University settings - need to start taking sources of distrust seriously. They should work harder to build bridges on their side. And I don't mean just by promoting celebrities through popular science TV shows.

Scientists should take heed to not only where they accept funding from, but how their funding models are going to impact public perception of their work. Would there be such paranoia about GMOs now if Monsanto weren't funding academic chairs and research? Same with vaccines. Same with vaping. This is where Obama's private-public partnerships may get into trouble, too.

Another thing I've been wondering is whether scientific papers HAVE to be written the way they are: perhaps a move to make scientific discovery itself more of a gift to the public realm would be of some service.

Also, I'm thinking special courts should be developed with Judges who have scientific training. Over the years there have been legal standards developed to help courts establish standards of scientific evidence and verify who the "experts" are. Perhaps what we need is that kind of procedure for scientific matters themselves. These rulings could then be used as precedents for other sorts of cases, such as ones dealing with environmental injustice or the vaccine situation.

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Response to daredtowork (Reply #11)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:46 PM

25. I don't really want our top research scientists taking time out of developing cures to debate

 

nutjobs whom, research indicates, will only become more hardheaded by that debate.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #25)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:59 PM

32. Well if you're going to think of that way

then we will just get more nutjobs voted into Congress defunding science.

The problem with science is it is a "second" or even a third tier job. It needs public support to happen. Thus you need to public trust. Which means you need to communicate with and prove yourself to that icky public. Sorry, it's just that way.

Or those scientists you would rather have thinking about curing cancer will be "better used" digging turnips for food for the people.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #25)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 05:14 PM

36. Agreed, it is best if scientists continue their research than spending all of

Their time explaining to those who do not accept scientific evidence.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 02:40 PM

12. What do we do, though, with those who refuse to vaccinate themselves or their children? . . .

I've read a lot over the years, and especially in the past week or so about this issue, and it certainly seems a "sticky wicket" of Constitutional questions.

Some argue unvaccinated children should not be allowed in public schools. That's been the policy here in California for years. However, it's not too hard to opt out. And the people who contracted measles this time did so at a public venue, Disneyland, a place designed for children. So how do we protect ourselves and our loved ones from people who base their decisions on what we perceive as faulty information and bad choices, but which they recognize as a Constitutional and ethical right? How do we reconcile a concern for public health with our respect for the Constitutional issues raised by "mandatory" medical procedures?

I'm flummoxed, and see no easy answers to a bewildering debate.

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Response to Journeyman (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:02 PM

17. We don't provide clothing exemptions to children of nudists.

If children want to learn in the nude, they will have to do so at home. The same should be true of unvaccinated children, who pose even more of a risk than naked kids.

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #17)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:38 PM

22. So you propose that the unvaccinated must be kept under house arrest at all times? . . .

This particular outbreak is traced largely to Disneyland. Could have been a county fair, or a theater, or a market.

Are you seriously proposing that the unvaccinated are to be segregated from the rest? And how will you know if the adult in the office next to your's is up-to-date on their vaccinations?

Unfortunately, this situation does not lend itself to easy, pat answers.

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Response to Journeyman (Reply #22)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:42 PM

23. If there is a child in the school who cannot be vaccinated...

...I think unvaccinated children should be barred from attending that school. They can be home-schooled by their parents.

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #23)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:52 PM

27. But again, what do we do when those children go to the park, or share a communal swimming pool? . . .

Some children cannot be vaccinated, or the vaccine isn't as effective for them, so to protect them we would keep those who choose to risk infection removed from their presence. This can be done in a closed school setting. But it's a weak defense, given how little time in a given year children are actually in school, and it does nothing for the greater majority of people who are not of school age.

Bandaid solutions are inadequate for communicable disease. We need a comprehensive solution.

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Response to Journeyman (Reply #27)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 05:18 PM

38. Parents of unvaccinated children are putting their children at risk, I

Would prefer for those precious little people be protected, you can not say who will be in the public places.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 02:42 PM

13. i think we need some really crushing, killer lawsuits on the manufacturers

 

who ignore and minimize the injuries and deaths their defective products cause.

Because that is the fear of the family. They don't have any children to spare to Big Pharm's mistakes. It's not like children came by the dozen, anymore, to ensure that some reached reproductive age.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 02:51 PM

14. Which defective vaccines have killed children and this was ignored? Name them.

 

That's never been the fear of any family I knew. My family feared shit like polio, not vaccines against polio. When people speak of 'the family' as if it is some unitary force I have to question that point of view strongly. I don't care for straight religious types who speak for 'all families'.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #14)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:55 PM

29. MMR Vaccine in Ukraine (2008) - Death and 92 Hospitalizations

 

http://www.vaccines.me/articles/bwwbp-mmr-vaccine-in-ukraine-2008---death-and-92-hospitalizations.cfm

Various coverage on this incident involving Trevisac - a strain of the MMR vaccine used in Ukraine in 2008.

This report from RIA Novosti:

"KIEV, May 18 (RIA Novosti) - A total of 92 people, including 87 children, were hospitalized in eastern Ukraine as of early Sunday after measles vaccination, Ukraine's emergencies ministry said.

On May 13, a 17-year-old boy died after measles inoculation in the Donetsk Region. Two days later, over 60 people in eastern Ukraine were hospitalized after vaccination. A total of over 20,000 people in the region received the same vaccine.

Ukraine's President Viktor Yushchenko said he was concerned over the teenager's death and demanded from the Ukrainian health ministry to take all measures to prevent such instances in the future."

By now, measles immunization has been halted in Ukraine.

Another report from Russia Today:

Ukraine halts deadly vaccination

The Ukrainian Ministry of health has called a moratorium on mandatory vaccination against measles and rubella. The President of Ukraine, Viktor Yushchenko, has insisted that vaccination is carried out on a voluntary basis only. This comes after more than 100 pupils were taken to hospital, one of whom died after having been injected with a vaccine from India.

Last week Ukraine was shaken by the news of a teenager's death. Senior pupil Anton Tishchenko died in intensive care in a hospital in the city of Kramatorsk in Donetsk Region after he'd been given the vaccine against measles and rubella (Tresivac ZA 26-X). Later, dozens more teenagers who'd received the same medication were rushed to hospital in Kramatorsk alone. Similar situations were reported in the cities of Donetsk, Kharkov and Kremenchug amongst others.

By Friday night a total of 87 people had been admitted to hospital with the same symptoms: high blood pressure, splitting headache, high temperature and sore throat.

Medical officials urged journalists not to spread unverified frightening stories. They said that the vaccine from the Indian enterprise Serum Institute of India, which had been delivered to Ukraine as humanitarian aid by UNICEF, is not just safe but considered to be the best in the world. They said this vaccine was certificated and registered in Ukraine, but never showed the above mentioned documents to the citizens.

Schoolmates of the deceased Anton Tishchenko say they were told that the vaccination was obligatory and urgent. Therefore many of them did not even have the time to inform their parents about the vaccination.

We'll do everything not to lose any more lives, said Vasily Knyazevich, the head of the Ministry of health. In turn, Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko has ordered a thorough investigation into the purchasing process of the medication.

Here is some information on the vaccine itself from the Serum Institute website. In the news reports we are not told that this an MMR vaccine.

COMPOSITION

TRESIVAC" is prepared from live attenuated strains of Edmonston-Zagreb measles virus propagated on human diploid cell culture, L-Zagreb mumps virus propagated on chick embryo fibroblast cells and Wistar RA 27/3 rubella virus propagated on human diploid cell culture.
The reconstituted vaccine contains, in single dose of 0.5 ml. not less than
1000 CCID50 of measles virus
5000 CCID50 of mumps virus
1000 CCID50 of rubella virus.
Diluent : Sterile water for injection.
The vaccine meets the requirements of USP and WHO when tested by the methods outlined in USP and WHO, TRS 840 (1994).

More quotes from a report on the Kyiv Post website:

Teenager's death spurs vaccination questions, fears

...Anton Tyshchenko, a 17-year old from Kramatorsk, died from a measles vaccine in May this year. The serum was developed in India and apparently wasn't tested in Ukraine, according to the findings of two investigation commissions. They also found the boy did not actually need a vaccination at all because he had already been immunized twice....

...Tyshchenko was vaccinated in school on May 12. A few hours later, he started feeling sick and developed a fever. He was hospitalized the same night, but died eight hours after the vaccine was injected. There is a direct cause-effect relation between Anton Tyshchenko's death and his vaccination for measles and rubella, Prosecutor General Oleksandr Medvedko said in his interview with Fakty daily last month....

...WHO and UNICEF, however, insisted there was nothing wrong with the vaccine. The measles and rubella vaccine used in Ukraine is pre-qualified by WHO and produced in accordance with the highest international standards by the Serum Institute of India, the largest producer of measles and rubella vaccine globally, wrote Maryanna Zaichykova, a communications assistant at UNICEF Ukraine, in response to questions from the Kyiv Post. Zaichykova said that the septic shock that caused the teenagers death was unrelated to immunization....

...As more gruesome details about mass vaccination come out into public light, more Ukrainians are turning away from vaccinations. Some data suggests that the number of parents who refuse to vaccinate their children has grown two or three-fold this year, and even more in Kyiv.

Vyacheslav Kostylev, head of the League of Civil Rights Protection, a non-government organization, said the number of people who ask for legal help on how to refuse vaccinating their children is growing...

FOLLOW-UP:
Ukraine’s Low Vaccination Rate May Start European Epidemic

http://sputniknews.com/society/20150128/1017443935.html

Ukraine poses a serious threat to Europe due to an extremely low level of vaccination against poliomyelitis, Minister of Healthcare of Ukraine, Alexander Kvitashvili, said during a press conference in Vinnytsia in west-central Ukraine.

HIV cases among 30-40 year-olds on increase in Russia
© Sputnik/ Sergei Veniavskiy
Russian HIV Vaccine Passes 2nd Clinical Trial Phase, Health Ministry Says
"Polio vaccination coverage is less than 30%. This is the level of less-developed African countries; it's a disaster. In general, vaccination of the population and children should be part of country’s security," Kvitashvili said, cited by UNIAN.

The minister also added that Ukraine is currently discussing with UNICEF the possibility of raising funds for children’s vaccination in the country....


Bill Gates and 47,500 Cases of Paralysis

http://foodfreedomgroup.com/2012/04/18/bill-gates-47500-paralysis-cases/

From “Polio programme: let us declare victory and move on” by Neetu Vashisht and Jacob Puliyel at Medical Ethics http://www.issuesinmedicalethics.org/202co114.html:

..“In 2011 there were an extra 47500 new cases of NPAFP (non-polio acute flaccid paralysis). Clinically indistinguishable from polio paralysis but twice as deadly, the incidence of NPAFP was directly proportional to doses of oral polio received. Through this data was collected within the polio surveillance system, it was not investigated.”

The Oral Polio Vaccines were given to Indian children. The CDC dropped the OPV from its vaccine schedule in the US because it was causing polio.

“In 1976, Dr. Jonas Salk, creator of the killed-virus vaccine used in the 1950s, testified that the live-virus vaccine (used almost exclusively in the U.S. from the early 1960s to 2000) was the ‘principal if not sole cause’ of all reported polio cases in the U.S. since 1961 . (The virus remains in the throat for one to two weeks and in the feces for up to two months. Thus, vaccine recipients are at risk, and can potentially spread the disease, as long as fecal excretion of the virus continues.) In 1992, the Federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published an admission that the live-virus vaccine had become the dominant cause of polio in the United States. In fact, according to CDC figures, every case of polio in the U.S. since 1979 was caused by the oral polio vaccine. Authorities claim the vaccine was responsible for about eight cases of polio every year. However, an independent study that analyzed the government’s own vaccine database during a recent period of less than five years uncovered 13,641 reports of adverse events following use of the oral polio vaccine. These reports included 6,364 emergency room visits and 540 deaths (Figure 3). Public outrage at these tragedies became the impetus for removing the oral polio vaccine from immunization schedules.”

Did Gates not know the OPV had been dropped in the US as he suggested he wanted to bring the same good health to third world countries as Western countries enjoyed? If he did not know, is he pushing vaccines on the world’s children without such basic and truly critical information?

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Response to Demeter (Reply #29)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:58 PM

31. SEE ALSO: The Cutter Incident: How America's First Polio Vaccine Led to a Growing Vaccine Crisis

 

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Response to Demeter (Reply #29)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 05:37 PM

40. That's terrifying!

A single death from MMR vaccine!

Out of the likely BILLIONS of MMR vaccines administered over the course of the 40 years or so?

Good lord. When will governments stand up to these companies peddling such poison?

On a serious note: Perspective is necessary when looking at science. For example, if you read somewhere that some ingredient doubles your chances of getting a disease, it really doesn't mean a lot if your chances were 1 in 5,000,000 and are now 2 in 5,000,000.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #29)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 10:11 PM

52. 16 deaths an hour from measles vs 1 death from a vaccine.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 02:53 PM

15. Without the federal fund and immunity we would have NO vaccines in the US.

As in NONE. We would have to go to other countries to get them. Because any jury will award huge sums of money to any child who looks pitiful enough. That is why Obstetrics has basically become "Do you want your C-section on Monday or Tuesday?" in the US.

Now, I see no problem with taking Big Pharm out of the loop and having the federal government (which is the body that actually pays for the research) own, license and administer the vaccines at cost. The federal government would, in that situation, give itself sovereign immunity which is how they manage to do a lot of things that are good for the many and not so good for the few (like seize land to build roads). But Big Pharm would have a shit fit.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 09:11 PM

43. Ironic that people don't have as large families any more due to conquering childhood diseases,

 

many with vaccines...

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #43)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 09:24 PM

44. You, Sir, are an idiot

 

Last edited Sat Jan 31, 2015, 10:04 PM - Edit history (1)

WOMEN don't have large families because they don't want them. It's dangerous for their health and welfare, and modern science, funded by WOMEN philanthropists, provided birth control that is safer than childbirth--even today with all the high-tech interventions available in the operating theatre.

Women had large families because their only other option was joining the convent. Several of the girls among the 17 children my great-grandmother bore chose to join convents. They did NOT want to endure what their mother did.

correction: there was a third option: death. in childbirth. or in a dirty abortion.

Vaccination had NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING to do with the size of a family, and still doesn't.

But fear of losing the only child one has does have something to do with the anti-vaccination people's motivation.

Given the level of lying that goes on in public discourse from public officials who should know better, many people have no reason to believe anything they are told.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #44)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 09:33 PM

46. I don't think you are entirely correct.

 

Family size most definitely tracks with the reduction in infant mortality.

I'd argue that the rise in Feminism was at least partially enabled by the fact that women no longer needed to be "baby machines" to produce the next generation. 2-3 children were considered sufficient. Women had more time to pursue other interests, including political interests.

Lots of stuff written on this.

You are correct, of course, that there are other factors that permitted the reduction in family sizes beyond reduction in infant mortality.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #46)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 10:03 PM

49. Margaret Sanger started the modern birth control clinic in 1917

 

condoms started long before that...became effective (but not popular) in 1800's.

Vaccines, aside from the smallpox and Pasteur's rabies, weren't even developed until the 1930's. And public vaccination campaigns?

I am 60, and contracted measles, german measles, knew others with mumps, in childhood in the 60's.


Is it so difficult to document yourself? To cobble together a fact or two?

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Response to Demeter (Reply #49)

Sun Feb 1, 2015, 09:19 AM

59. Condoms have been used for centuries...

 

But IMO, you're all wet here. I encourage you to research the topic. You are free to disagree, of course, but many, many people, people who are not idiots, disagree with your premise that there is no connection between infant mortality and family size.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #44)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 10:00 PM

48. Reducing/eliminating childhood diseases has had an effect on family sizes.

 

Promoters of woo are reintroducing preventable childhood diseases.

The anti-science, anti-vax woo promoters should be liable for practicing medicine without a license.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #44)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 10:16 PM

53. Elimination of preventable childhood diseases does, in many cases, have an effect on how many

children someone will have. There are places where increasing vaccinations and decreasing infant mortality has led people to not have so many kids. Keep the ones you have alive rather than having them die and replacing them.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 02:55 PM

16. I was a single MMR doser who lost immunity as an adult.

Which was blessedly discovered after I had to have titers drawn before starting med school (official vaccination records were lost).

Also just insisted on having my 11 month old vaccinated with MMR ahead of a family trip to Disney World. He'll need another vaccine in his second year to be compliant with school rules, which I consider to be a bonus these days. He'll probably have full immunity ahead of his 4 year shots.

I was planning on the early dose even before the Disneyland outbreak. For respiratory communicable diseases, I consider Disney to be equivalent to international travel these days. Seems I may be onto something.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:04 PM

18. I'm not 100% if I got the MMR

I was born in late 1964. My pediatrician was very pro-vaccine and had used the most advanced ones available, but the MMR didn't become available until 1971. I should see if I can get my old records. I'm in California and in Stage 3 CKD, so not getting measles is important. I'm up to date on my TDaP and pneumovax.

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Response to REP (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:14 PM

19. Get a titer done. You could have had the dead vaccine.

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Response to REP (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:25 PM

20. I was born in '70

I am a teacher. Indiana had a mild measles outbreak a few years ago. All of us in my age range were required to get a booster. If we didn't, we had to use our sick time to sit out of school for 21 days.

I had no idea my immunity was no longer good until then. A booster would probably be a good idea.

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Response to AwakeAtLast (Reply #20)


Response to AwakeAtLast (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 05:47 PM

74. I hadn't heard of this. Thanks for the info - I need to check to see if I need a booster too.

wow!

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:43 PM

24. The nice thing about the tetnus vaccine I got is that it also

 

covered whooping cough and something else (I forget what).

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Response to Vattel (Reply #24)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:48 PM

26. Likely Diptheria. I think the shot is called DTP. nt

 

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #26)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:53 PM

28. Yes, thanks, I think that was it.

 

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #26)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:56 PM

30. You're right, except it's called DPT.

Diptheria/pertussis/tetanus.

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Response to Vattel (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 07:02 PM

76. DPT - Diptheria, Pertussis, Tetanus. [n/t]

 

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 04:08 PM

33. I constantly keep my child up-to-date on vaccinations

but I never think of myself. I have a physical coming up-maybe I should discuss it with my doctor?

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 04:29 PM

34. With ALL the due respect awarded medical professionals, may I recommend this to be read in full?

Incidentally, Dr. Poling agrees with your assessment of the risk of tetanus (op-ed published 4/11/08). Olmsted misses on that one (op-ed below published 1/31/15).

ADDITIONAL CONTEXT:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2536523/

J Child Neurol. Author manuscript; available in PMC Sep 15, 2008.

Published in final edited form as:
J Child Neurol. Feb 2006; 21(2): 170–172.
doi: 10.2310/7010.2006.00032

Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism
Jon S. Poling, MD, PhD, Richard E. Frye, MD, PhD, John Shoffner, MD, and Andrew W. Zimmerman, MD

http://www.amazon.com/Vaccines-2-0-Careful-Parents-Vaccination-ebook/dp/B00R3LDZOC/

About the Authors

Mark Blaxill is the father of a daughter diagnosed with autism, co-founder of the Canary Party, and editor at large for "Age of Autism." He has authored several scientific publications on autism. He received his A.B. from Princeton and an MBA from Harvard. He co-authored the book, "The Age of Autism."

Dan Olmsted is co-author of "Age of Autism" and Editor of the blog of the same name. He was an original staff member of USA Today and Senior Editor for USA Weekend magazine and United Press International. He is a member of the National Press Club.

Olmsted is also a Yale grad.

OP-ED: http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/01/weekly-wrap-spreading-measles-and-autism.html
More: http://autisminnb.blogspot.com/2010/12/2010-autism-words-of-year-mitochondrial.html

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #34)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 10:06 PM

50. Autism has been proven in multiple studies to have absolutely no correlation with vaccines.

 

Wakefield was a fraud who profited off his "study" of 12 children, has had his license removed and his "study" retracted.

There is no connection between autism and vaccines. Period.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #54)

Sun Feb 1, 2015, 12:55 AM

55. Suppose you are right. How many studies were not?

 

Wakefield is a fraud, which has been proven beyond any doubt. Everything he claimed is total crap.

There is not one scientific study that shows any link between autism and vaccines.

How many times are you going to flog a dead horse with these same links?

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #55)

Sun Feb 1, 2015, 01:30 AM

57. Again, selectively ignoring inconvenient science is an unsustainable approach.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #57)

Sun Feb 1, 2015, 09:19 AM

58. Yes, ignoring that Wakefield is a fraud and post the same links over and over

 

is not conducive to accepting that there is no credible science that links autism and vaccines.

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #58)

Sun Feb 1, 2015, 01:00 PM

60. That's the official story/FULL STOP. Change subject or tempt me to 'post the same links over & over'

In Sweden the total number of recommended vaccines by age five is 11; in the US, it is 36. Shrug? More in the pipeline. Shrug? That's YOUR assessment. I have the right not to agree.

MORE: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026156971#post13 through 16

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #60)

Sun Feb 1, 2015, 01:58 PM

63. I have no illusion that purveyors of woo can be convinced that their faith based misinformation

 

is crap. I post to let others know that it is garbage based in feelings and emotions rather than science.

I'm not the one posting the same woo over and over in multiple threads.

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #63)

Mon Feb 2, 2015, 05:41 AM

64. Baloney.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/03/from-the-editor.html

UPDATE 02/01/2015:

"Sources have confirmed that Dr. William Thompson (senior scientist at The CDC) has been granted Official Whistleblower Status and immunity. This paves the way for Dr. William Thompson to go before the United States Congress and testify about the CDC FRAUD regarding vaccine safety and to explain the thousands of documents that have been turned over to congressional representatives..."

Posted by: Bayareamom | February 01, 2015 at 08:14 PM

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #64)

Mon Feb 2, 2015, 05:51 PM

66. I agree, you Age of Autism post are baloney

 

Please cite a valid study that links autism to vaccines. Endlessly harping on discredited scientist does absolutely nothing to establish a link.

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #63)

Mon Feb 2, 2015, 06:02 AM

65. Dr. Bernadine Healy, former head of the National Institutes of Health, in 2008:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-open-question-on-vaccines-and-autism/

By SHARYL ATTKISSON
CBS NEWS

May 12, 2008, 5:09 PM

The "Open Question" On Vaccines and Autism


Perhaps the most puzzling thing about autism and ADD is that more than a decade into this public health crisis, our best, smartest government scientists and public health officials still say they have no idea what's causing it. Scary stuff, when parents having a child today realize there's at least an estimated 1 in 150 chance their child will have an autism disorder (1 in 90 if it's a boy).

While the government has been utterly unable to stop it, or even tell us what is causing it, they say they do know one thing: it's not vaccines. But today, in an exclusive interview with CBS News, Dr. Bernadine Healy becomes the most well-known medical voice yet to counter the government on that claim.

Healy's credentials couldn't be more "mainstream." After all, she once was a top government health official as head of the National Institutes of Health. She founded the first school of public health in Ohio, and then headed both the school of public health and the school of medicine at Ohio State University. She's an internist and cardiologist. And she's a member of the Institute of Medicine, the government advisory board that tried to put the vaccine-autism controversy to rest in 2004 by saying a link was not likely.

Click below to watch a Web-exclusive extended cut of Sharyl's interview with Dr. Healy: VIDEO AT LINK

According to Healy, when she began researching autism and vaccines she found credible published, peer-reviewed scientific studies that support the idea of an association. That seemed to counter what many of her colleagues had been saying for years. She dug a little deeper and was surprised to find that the government has not embarked upon some of the most basic research that could help answer the question of a link.

The more she dug, she says, the more she came to believe the government and medical establishment were intentionally avoiding the question because they were afraid of the answer.

Why? Healy says some in the government make the mistake of treating vaccines as an all-or-nothing proposition. The argument goes something like this: everybody gets vaccinated at the same time with the same vaccines or nobody will get vaccinated and long-gone deadly diseases will re-emerge. (When I asked about cases of brain damage resulting in autism that have been quietly compensated by the government in vaccine court over the years, one government official recently told me that "it's still better overall to get vaccinated than not to get vaccinated."

Healy says the argument need not be framed in those terms (vaccinate or don't vaccinate). Instead, she says, we should vaccinate, but work to do it in the safest manner possible based on what we know and what we can find out.

That's what the parents of autistic children have told me as well. If we can screen children to see which ones might be more susceptible to vaccine side effects, and vaccinate them on a more personalized schedule that is safer for them, why wouldn't we? If it's safer for all children to have their vaccinations spread out, why wouldn't we? Healy says it's called "personalized medicine" and is being done in virtually all areas of medicine today with the exception of vaccines. Yet the government continues to frame the conversation in all-or-nothing, "one-size-fits-all" terms.

<>

PARTIAL TRANSCRIPT: "This is the time when we do have the opportunity to understand whether or not there are susceptible children, perhaps genetically, perhaps they have a metabolic issue, mitochondrial disorder, immunological issue that makes them more susceptible to vaccines, plural, or to one particular vaccine, or to one component of vaccines, like mercury. So we now, in these times have to take another look at that hypothesis; not deny it. I think we have the tools today that we didn’t have 10 years ago. That we didn’t have 20 years ago . . . to try and tease that out and find out if there is indeed that susceptible group. Why is that important? A susceptible group does not mean that vaccines aren’t good. What a susceptible group will tell us is that maybe there is a group of individuals or a group of children that shouldn’t have a particular vaccine or shouldn’t have vaccines on the same schedule. I do not believe that if we identified a susceptibility group, that if we identified a particular risk factor for vaccines; or if we found out that they should be spread out a little longer, I do not believe that the public would lose faith in vaccines . . . .

It is the job of the public health community and of physicians to be out there and to say, “Yes, we can make it safer because we are able to say, this is a subset and we’re going to deliver it in a way that we think is safer . . . .” I think the government or certain public health officials in the government have been too quick to dismiss the concerns of these families without studying the population that got sick . . . . The public health officials have been too quick to dismiss the hypothesis as irrational, without sufficient studies of causation. I think they have often been too quick to dismiss studies in the animal laboratory, either in mice, in primates, that do show some concerns with regard to certain vaccines and also to the mercury preservative in vaccines. The government has said in a report by the Institute of Medicine . . . in a report in 2004, it basically said, “Do not pursue susceptibility groups. Don’t look for those patients, those children who may be vulnerable.”

I really take issue with that conclusion. The reason they didn’t want to look for those susceptibility groups was because they were afraid that if they found them, however big or small they were, that that would scare the public away. First of all, I think the public’s smarter than that; I think the public values vaccines, but more importantly I don’t think you should ever turn your back on any scientific hypothesis because you’re afraid of what it might show . . . If you read the 2004 report and converse with a few of my colleagues who believe this still to be the case, there is a completely expressed concern that they don’t want to pursue a hypothesis because that hypothesis could be damaging to the public health community at large by scaring people. I don’t believe the truth ever scares people and if it does have a certain edge to it, then that’s the obligation of those who are delivering those facts to do it in a responsible way so you don’t terrify the public.

One never should shy away from science; one should never shy away from getting causality information in a setting in which you can test it. Populations do not test causality; they test associations. You have to go into the laboratory, and you have to do designed research studies, in animals. What we’re seeing is in the bulk of the population vaccines are safe. Vaccines are safe. But there may be the susceptible group. The fact that there is concern that you don’t want to know that susceptible group is a real disappointment to me. If you know that susceptible group, you can save those children. If you turn your back on the notion that there’s a susceptible group that means that you are . . . what can I say? (13)

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #50)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 02:17 PM

67. More.

1. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/autism/

2. Do a COMMAND F: Thompson (5 hits on the page)

3. http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-william-w-thompson-ph-d-regarding-the-2004-article-examining-the-possibility-of-a-relationship-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/

4.
http://touch.orlandosentinel.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-81317483/

Posey looking at whistleblower's CDC autism documents

Scott Powers, Central Florida Political Pulse
10:40 am, September 9, 2014


U.S. Rep. Bill Posey has been curious for a while about whether there's been enough research into alleged links between childhood immunizations and autism, and now his office has a cache of documents from a CDC scientist who said his research was tainted.

Posey's Congressional office is reviewing somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 documents, including research statistics, it obtained from Dr. William Thompson, who has complained that the CDC withheld some of his data that may have suggested a link.

Posey, R-Rockledge, has maintained an interest in the issue since being briefed on it by former Space Coast Congressman U.S. Rep. Dave Weldon, who is a medical doctor.

Specifically, Thompson told several media outlets last month that he believes his research found some correlation between measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccines and an increased incidence of autism among African-American children, but that critical data from that research were manipulated to obscure the findings.

Officials in Posey's office wouldn't say what they expect to find, but they are examining Thompson's research papers.

The media no longer functions as an advocate for whistleblowers, so if you've never heard of Dr. William W Thompson, it's not surprising.

RELATED: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/merck-whistleblowers_b_5881914.html

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #67)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 02:44 PM

68. How many times are you guys going to keep pushing that Thompson story

 

as if it actually means anything?

Here, let's review:

http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/cdcwhistleblower.asp

What got lost in the brouhaha over Dr. Thompson's "confession," allegations about a "cover-up" at the CDC, and threats of whistleblower lawsuits was what should have been the main point: Did collected data actually prove that the MMR vaccine produces a 340% increased risk of autism in African-American boys? The answer is no, it did not.

On 27 August 2014, Dr. Hooker's article published in the journal Translational Neurodegeneration that concluded "African American males receiving the MMR vaccine prior to 24 months of age or 36 months of age are more likely to receive an autism diagnosis" was removed from public domain due to issues of conflict of interest and the questionable validity of its methods:

...

The study looked at different age groups: children vaccinated by 18 months, 24 months, and 36 months. The findings revealed that vaccination between 24 and 36 months was slightly more common among children with autism, and that association was strongest among children 3-5 years of age. The authors reported this finding was most likely a result of immunization requirements for preschool special education program attendance in children with autism.


So, actually, Thompson's getting no coverage because the thing he was "blowing the whistle on" was an utter nonissue except for those with an ideological axe to grind.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #68)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 04:15 PM

69. Wrong, unfortunately. Hey, let's make all the relevant CDC raw data OPEN SOURCE. (nt)

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #69)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 04:52 PM

71. Jake Crosby's blog? You've got to be kidding me.

 



It's also patently obvious a statistician didn't go anywhere near Hooker's study. That thing is an abortion of stats.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #67)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 06:36 PM

75. Again, there are multiple, multiple sudies proving no link.

 

There is one study, sample size `12!! from someone who was proven to had falsified data, profited from the study, had the study retracted and lost his license to practice medicine.

There is NO LINK.

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #75)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 07:31 PM

78. That's the official story; too bad it ignores all nuance. Read Dr.Poling's Op-Ed from 2008.

Link from post 34 (above):

http://autisminnb.blogspot.com/2010/12/2010-autism-words-of-year-mitochondrial.html

2010 Autism Words of the Year: Mitochondrial Dysfunction

The word mitochondria is not new to discussions of autism disorders. The Poling case "injected", no pun intended, mitochondria into the debates over vaccines and autism. The recent UC Davis study, by Cecilia Giulivi, Ph D., and other researchers, Mitochondrial Dysfunction in Autism, published in the December 1, 2010 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association has brought the association between mitochondrial dysfunction and autism disorders into mainstream public consciousness and into mainstream medical legitimacy. Make no mistake about it we will now hear much, much more about the connection between autism disorders and mitochondrial dysfunction.

The Poling family was successful in advancing a vaccine injury claim on behalf of their daughter Hannah Poling to the point of settlement by US authorities. Hannah's father is Dr. Jon Poling, a practicing neurologist in Athens, Georgia, and clinical assistant professor at the Medical College of Georgia. He reviewed his daughter's case in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on April 11, 2008. In his comments Dr. Poling explained how mitchondrial dysfunction was related to his daughter's case and to the existence of a possible mitochondrial dysfunction subgroup of autism disorder. He also discussed, as a medical doctor who expressly recognized the importance of vaccines in preventing serious diseases, the need for public health authorities to abandon fear tactics and conduct research to restore confidence in public health authorities and vaccines:

"Mitochondria key

To understand Hannah's case, it is important to understand mitochondria, which act like batteries in our cells to produce energy critical for normal function. Because the government's concession hinged on the presence of Hannah's underlying medical condition, mitochondrial dysfunction, some claim the decision is relevant to very few other children with autism. As a neurologist, scientist and father, I disagree.

Emerging evidence suggests that mitochondrial dysfunction may not be rare at all among children with autism. In the only population-based study of its kind, Portuguese researchers confirmed that at least 7.2 percent, and perhaps as many as 20 percent, of autistic children exhibit mitochondrial dysfunction. While we do not yet know a precise U.S. rate, 7.2 percent to 20 percent of children does not qualify as "rare." In fact, mitochondrial dysfunction may be the most common medical condition associated with autism.

Biological markers

Although unlikely, if the Portuguese studies are incorrect and mitochondrial dysfunction were found to be a rarity occurring in less than 1 percent of all autism, it would still impact up to 10,000 children (250,000 worldwide), based on current estimates that 1 million people in the U.S. (25 million worldwide) have autism. If, on the other hand, the research showing that 7.2 percent to 20 percent of children with autism have mitochondrial dysfunction is correct, then the implications are both staggering and urgent.

Autism researchers do not currently understand whether mitochondrial dysfunction causes autism or is simply a secondary biological marker. Autism clearly has many different causes, and should really be separated into multiple autism(s). I propose that we clearly identify and research the subpopulation term of "mitochondrial autism," which is distinguished by its unique biological, but not genetic, markers.

Based on what we know now, it is time to follow the prestigious Institute of Medicine 2004 report regarding autism and vaccines:

"Determining a specific cause (for autism) in the individual is impossible unless the etiology is known and there is a biological marker. Determining causality with population-based methods requires either a well-defined at-risk population or a large effect in the general population."

A paradigm shift

When the IOM report was published, mitochondrial dysfunction defining an autistic subpopulation was not firmly established. Today there is no doubt that mitochondrial dysfunction represents a distinct autism subpopulation biological marker. I urge health officials and the IOM to embrace their own report and pursue this breakthrough in the science of autism. National public health leaders, including those at CDC, must now recognize the paradigm shift caused by this biological marker with regard to their current position of dispelling a vaccine-autism link.

In light of the Hannah Poling concession, science must determine more precisely how large the mitochondrial autism subpopulation is: 1 percent, 7.2 percent, 20 percent?

Based on the 2004 IOM analysis, if the mitochondrial autism subpopulation is found to be relatively uncommon, then all conclusions from prior epidemiological studies refuting an autism-vaccination link must be discarded. New studies then need to be performed exclusively with the mitochondrial subpopulation. If mitochondrial autism turns out to be common, then we could re-analyze the data from prior studies to determine if these studies were powered sufficiently based on a predicted effect size. If not powered appropriately, the conclusion refuting an autism-vaccine link would again have to be rejected. These statistical concepts are basic.

The current vaccine schedule, co-sponsored by the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics, injures a small but significant minority of children, my daughter unfortunately being one of those victims. Every day, more parents and some pediatricians reject the current vaccine schedule. In an abundance of caution, meaningful reform must be performed urgently to prevent the re-emergence of serious diseases like polio or measles.

Need for research

As a neurologist, I have cared for those afflicted with SSPE (a rare but dreaded neurological complication of measles), paralytic polio and tetanus. If these serious vaccine-preventable diseases again become commonplace, the fault will rest solely on the shoulders of public health leaders and policymakers who have failed to heed the writing on the wall (scribbled by my 9-year old daughter).

The mitochondrial autism scenario that my daughter has so eloquently painted has the CDC and public health experts logically cornered. Denial and fear tactics won't close Pandora's Box. Whether we find that mitochondrial autism is rare or common, there is urgent research left to be done to fully understand the interrelationship of vaccines, autism and mitochondria.

Reform of the vaccine schedule will be an important part of the solution, whether vaccines play a major or minor role in autism. Our public health agencies and programs need a reconstruction plan. Day one of the reconstruction hopefully starts at the Vaccine Safety Advisory Committee's Working Group, to be held at HHS headquarters today in Washington."


<>

Also see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2536523/

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #78)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 07:33 PM

79. Don't you get tired of searching for BS Links?

 

Hint: that is not how science works....

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 04:38 PM

35. I'm a nutjob.

 

I have degrees from MIT, that's how anti-science I am. I also have lasting damage from Guillaine-Barre from a flu vaccination. So you pro-vaccers can take your nutjob condescending ignorant opinions and well, you can imagine do what with them. You sound as informed and rational as lynch mobs.

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Response to blackcrow (Reply #35)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 05:16 PM

37. The fact that some people are allergic to penicillin doesn't mean it isn't a lifesaver.

I'm sorry about you had an adverse reaction. Guillain-Barre is a known risk factor of many types of infections and with vaccination.

You got unlucky. You know what else causes GBS? Influenza.

So what is the answer? Stop vaccinating? Since GBS is an autoimmune disorder that is triggered by the body responding to an what it sees as an infection, how on earth can we get around that since the whole purpose of vaccination is to get the body to act like it is responding to a particular infection?

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Response to blackcrow (Reply #35)


Response to blackcrow (Reply #35)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 06:07 PM

42. Sorry but your post if full of logical fallacies

I have degrees from MIT, that's how anti-science I am.


[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]You are also an anonymous poster on a message board. I could claim to be the pope, that does not make it so.

Regardless, this is an argument from authority fallacy. Just because you have degrees from MIT does not mean they are biology degrees or more specifically degrees in immunology. It does not mean that when it comes to this one area that you are as much an ignorant layman as the average person off the street.

One can be a genius in their field and an idiot everywhere else. Dunning-Kruger effect applies to everyone working outside their field.
[/font]

I also have lasting damage from Guillaine-Barre from a flu vaccination.


[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]This is a Nirvana/Perfect Solution fallacy combined with anecdotal evidence.

Vaccines sometimes have side-effects. No solution is perfect. However, vaccine risks are so minuscule that the protections and benefits they provide to the vast majority of people far exceed the risks.

Just because you experienced one rare isolated event does not mean vaccines are bad. Your situation is an outlier.

Seat-belts increase one's chances of surviving a wreck about 99.9% of the time. But in very very rare situations seat-belts decrease one's chance of survival. Do you think that extremely rare situation mean that wearing a seat-belt is a bad idea?

I don't think they teach that type of tortured logic at MIT...

On very rare occasions vaccines have bad side-effects. But these cases are so rare that it makes it moronic to argue against vaccines because someone might hit the bad luck lottery.

Further, Most people don't have Guillain–Barré syndrome (2 out of 100,000 people), and no one is advocating that people who can't take vaccines for legitimate medical reasons are anti-vaxxers.

The people advocating against vaccines in general or who are refusing to vaccinate themselves or their children when they do not know if they have these conditions (or they when know they don't have such conditions) are the ones that are being argued against here.

They are putting their children and everyone who, for medical reasons such as yours, can't get vaccinated at risk. They deserve to be mocked and ridiculed.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #42)

Sun Feb 1, 2015, 01:52 PM

62. Here's a fun fact you may find amusing

DeVry used to call itself MIT - Missouri Institute of Technology. So when anyone claims to have a degree from MIT, I think, "sure, why not."

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Response to blackcrow (Reply #35)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 09:42 PM

47. Yes, you are still anti-science. Just more specifically

 

A scientist would want something proven via the scientific method. They don't accept premises based on correlation alone as you have with the flu vaccine and G-B. One of the first things you learn as a scientist is that correlation does not necessarily imply causation.

In terms of G-B, the national institutes of heal have a lot to say about it including that it is a syndrome not a disease and that is because there may not be a definitive cause.

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/gbs/detail_gbs.htm

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Response to blackcrow (Reply #35)

Sun Feb 1, 2015, 01:24 AM

56. You know the actual flu causes GBS at a greater rate than the vaccine, right?

I mean, I assume a scientist like you knows that...

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Response to blackcrow (Reply #35)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 07:14 PM

77. Your comment doesn't ring true for someone with a science or technical education background.

 

If you had said background, you would likely understand how public vaccination programs work - namely, that the program is only effective if as many people as possible take part.

In the context of that understanding it should be easy to see that a popular movement to opt out of the program, based upon discredited research linking vaccinations to autism, seriously undermines the effectiveness of the program. The diseases targeted by the vaccination programs have the potential to inflict serious harm on society, so the decisions made by those mislead by the anti-vaccination movement have a very real consequence for public health.

In your case, the argument is that better vaccines must be developed, not that vaccination programs should be discontinued.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 05:28 PM

39. I had the measles vaccine when it first came out

I think it was '69 or '70 and then in the early 90's there was a measles epidemic because that early vaccine was ineffective. Went to see my Dr., they did blood work and sure enough I had no immunity to measles. Was re-vaccinated with MMR vaccine and glad I did.

My nephew and his wife were rabid anti vaxers until they had a terrible scare with their son, he had an ear infection and they refused to put him on antibiotics. He ended up in the hospital septic and fighting for his life. Thankfully he had a full recovery and this experience made them rethink their position on a lot of medical decisions they were making. Thankfully both of their children are now vaccinated.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 09:32 PM

45. I can attest to one thing in this

 

"The old horse serum rabies vaccines made people sick"

The new ones aren't a hell of a lot of fun, either, and have side effects. But they beat the shit out of getting rabies which is pretty much 100% fatal if you get exposed.

Since I'm still posting on DU, I'm going to go along with getting vaccines when you need them even if they suck in the short term if the alternative is ... yeah, quite a bit better than becoming a menace to yourself, the public and everyone around you because you are too stubborn and stupid to get a clue.

For everyone dumb enough to be anti-vax, the probability that you will affect other people due to your stupidity turns your "choice" into a conscious one that you really don't care about anybody else, your child, or other people's children.

And on the topic of Tetanus, the DPT (Diphtheria, Pertussis, Tetanus) booster should be had every 5-10 years if you work or live in an environment where you could encounter puncturing wounds. I got one for free during Katrina because I was part of the core group of people that stayed and rebuilt the area. It's not a bad idea for those that come in contact with children, work in environments where you could get puncture wounds, or work with those with low immune system/at risk people to get a booster. I got another one to go along with the lovely rabies series (not fun) last year with the raccoon bite episode.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Sat Jan 31, 2015, 10:08 PM

51. Great post! Smallpox too....

...the only reason we don't need that vaccination is because of successful vaccination to eradicate a horrific virus. I wonder if they'd risk their kids getting infected with that one.

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Response to Avalux (Reply #51)

Sun Feb 1, 2015, 01:19 PM

61. A lot of people did resist the smallpox vaccination, and for a very long time.

Until it was made mandatory, many people refused it, and for the same illogical reasons people are still rejecting vaccination. I have my smallpox vaccine scar. It's a historical thing. I also caught all the common childhood diseases, since vaccines were not available for them. A very good friend of mine lost a year of grammar school because she contracted encephalitis from the measles. She survived, but lost a year of her life.

Measles killed another of my childhood friends. Polio got a couple more. Diphtheria was already unheard of by my childhood, thank goodness. It was a common cause of death in children at one time.

People have always been stupid about vaccination. I'm sure some will continue to be. I hope their children survive their stupidity.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Original post)

Wed Feb 4, 2015, 04:20 PM

70. On the bright side, if you get tetanus, you'll die with a smile on your face. n/t

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