The wars of the Crusades ended 500 years ago. Why are they still an excuse for religious wars? n/t

[pnwmom]

[1StrongBlackMan]

1. Who is using the Crusades as an excuse for religious wars? n/t

[gcomeau]

3. Apparently anyone who so much as mentions them...

...if you believe some posters.

[pnwmom]

4. The Islamic State. n/t

[Fred Sanders]

8. And they are authorities on the subject, are they? More so than your own President?

[pnwmom]

10. They are the authorities on who/why they think they are fighting, yes. n/t

[Fred Sanders]

11. Listen to your President instead.

[pnwmom]

18. I wasn't thrilled with what he said at the prayer breakfast, if that's what you mean. n/t

[Fred Sanders]

19. Then you obviously have not taken the 17 minutes to listen to it because you should be "thrilled".

You are operating off of media filters, the Fox filters.

Enjoy:



http://www.c-span.org/video/?324188-1/2015-national-prayer-breakfast

[Throd]

12. Actually, they kinda are.

[Fred Sanders]

15. Believing anything the terrorists say is the duty of Fox. Once again, I believe the President, but

free country.

[salin]

2. my reply depends on understanding your question...

one response for "why it would be brought up by Obama at the Prayer Breakfast" or a similar context/intent.

another response for "why ISIS would refer to it in their recruitment efforts" or similar context/intent.

[pnwmom]

6. I'd be interested in both of your responses. n/t

[salin]

22. First one...

I think it is one of the most well known, broad examples of systematic violence/death waged in the name of religion. It is a caveat/warning -- that mankind is capable of great destruction, and the justification of religion is just that (man made justification for man made horrific decision/action) it does not suggest the direct/divine hand of God.

There are other examples in the bloody battles between Catholicism and Protestantism that start go back to the split in the Church and continued through the Bloody Northern Ireland conflict that only ended within the past 20 years. But that is sectarian. There are other examples (ancient and recent) from other religions.

Usually there is more than just the religion at play. I think the caution is to generalize out to all members of one religion (or another) based on the horrific actions committed by some people of that faith - even when claiming to do it in the name of the faith.


The second one ... on the first level, when the Iraq war was escalating, sadly the wording was often used (by President Bush) that this was a Global Crusade against terror. I think that language is being thrown back. If you recall there were isolated (I hope) stories of groups sending materials to soldiers to use to "save" Iraqis through conversion (I think one group called themselves something like Prayer Warriors), there was a Chaplain serving who was outspoken, IIRC about converting Iraqis. While that wasn't the purpose, to those radicalized in that time frame, to respond using language (revenge so to speak) for the Crusades fits a narrative that would seem more based on recent history rather than 500 yr ago history.

I have a deeper answer to the second one that I would not have considered had I read your question a few days ago. It is based on reading a piece in the Atlantic that was advocating getting a better understanding the who and why behind ISIS. http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Late in the article the author speaks to a apacolpytic view that seems to be behind many of the radicalized members who are leaving their own countries in order to go to the "caliphate". The imagery/locations of where they are purpoted to believe this battle will occur - all go back to about 500 years. I found the article very thought provoking.

Just some reactions to your question.

[Fumesucker]

5. The Shia-Sunni split is considerably older than that

And many Muslims are fighting that battle still as well.

[pnwmom]

9. True. But the Vatican stopped leading the Crusades 500 years ago, and yet the Islamic State

is still threatening it.

[Fumesucker]

16. Some cultures carry grudges much longer than others

Tribal cultures tend to take slights very seriously and carry them for a great deal of time.

Hatfields vs McCoys type stuff..

[Fred Sanders]

17. Like some cultures of 'Christians' still carry the grudge of losing the Civil War in America, true.

[snooper2]

33. Yeah, difference is they haven't taken over south Florida by raping children and beheading enemies

Just a SLIGHT fucking difference

[Fred Sanders]

34. Give them some fucking time. That is exactly what they used to do, remember?

[snooper2]

35. mkay- distract, obfuscate

I guess having those skills come in handy but are they usefully in any meaningful employment....


Besides being O'Lielly or Rinse Penise? LOL

[Fred Sanders]

36. Because you began the out of the world obfuscation it is verboten that others point it out?

[snooper2]

38. you compared ISIS assholes murdering people due to hundreds year old grudges

to some asshole in a 16x80 in Montgomery looking to re-kindle the civil war on facebook LOL-


you crack me up...

[AngryAmish]

23. IS is threatening Rome.

And when they threaten Rome they are threatening Constantinople. Which we learned from They Might Be Giants, is now Istanbul.

[Fred Sanders]

7. Still have not listened to Obama's full speech..still relying on con and ISIS propaganda is why you

are confused.

[Iggo]

13. Because religious wars never really end.

Yay!!!

[dissentient]

14. It was never an excuse to begin with, really

"Look at this latest atrocity by Islamic fanatics!"

"So, Christians did the same or worse in history!"

"Huh?"

[HereSince1628]

20. Remember Muslim Christian conflict as Yugoslavia broke up?

That went back to European nations trying to fend off conquest by the Ottomans

People were still angry about how cities were divided.

If people are pissed off long enough it apparently becomes a cultural tradition

[guillaumeb]

21. In Northern Ireland they still have a parade

to celebrate the English winning the Battle of the Boyne. It took place in 1690. Orange protestants vs Green catholics. There is usually fighting associated.

As Fred Sanders said, the American South does not really believe it lost the Civil War. They are still fighting.


The way they treat our President is disrespectful and a disgrace.
Nothing to do with politics, everything to do with race.
Might not wear their white sheets, might not wear the hood
but racial hate and racist speech serves not the common good.

Take that Newt Gingrich!

[LeftishBrit]

24. Who is?

I didn't think that even Al Quaeda or Isis were using the Crusades as an excuse. They have more recent grievances, sometimes real and often imaginary.

[jwirr]

27. I suspect that they see the recent grievances as a continuation of the Crusades. Especially when

our president was calling it a Christian Crusade.

[NightWatcher]

25. because people fight to prove which invisible deity is THE ONE TRUE made up god.

So they fight proxy wars that their invisible gods cannot, you know since they don't exist. It's all quite silly when you sit down and spell it out.

[demosincebirth]

26. More like 700 years ago.

[The2ndWheel]

28. Time is an illusion

It's not linear. It doesn't matter that it's the 21st century. There is no north, south, east, or west. You can just as easily say that the sun rises in the north and sets in the south. They're all just stories that we tell ourselves.

[One_Life_To_Give]

29. Hatfields and McCoys?

Feuds can go a long time when there is a constant boarder area, little interaction and people identify with the common history in that local.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. Jesus died 2000 years ago and wars are still being fought in his name.

In AD 70, Judea was conquered by Rome and became a part of Syria-Palestina but the wars continue for its ownership.

[LanternWaste]

31. I'm guessing that should a person look for an excuse to wage war, find "crusades" has already been t

I'm guessing that should a person look for an excuse to wage war, find "crusades" has already been taken, he'll simply find another excuse irrelevant to his agenda.

Seems to be part of human nature to justify our offenses by rationalizing them through the lens of religion, freedom, blue lines on map, money, elbow-room, etc.

[edhopper]

32. Maybe as long as people like Ann Coulter say shit like this

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

37. The Moslem-Indian bloodbath last century

I don't know if you can call it a war or just mass civil murder over religion but about a million died (.5 million on either side) when Hindus and Moslems decided they could not tolerate living in the same country together and split into Pakistan and India. I don't think they were thinking about the Crusades when neighbor murdered neighbor. They just could not tolerate each other's religion.

Also last century, I think you could classify the Armenian genocide in which 1.5 million were killed as a religious war. Turkey's Christian populations had long been treated like animals and Armenians, Christian ethnic groups such as the Assyrians and the Ottoman Greeks were similarly targeted for extermination.

[Yorktown]

39. Because Islam used to be a spoilt child

Muslims do not grieve only over the Crusades which stopped them in their conquests (Lepanto),

they also regret Poitiers (732), al Andalus (ends in 1492) and Vienna (1529)

Other than that, the invasion of northern Africa or Persia/northern India was going fine.