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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWriting is hard, writing what you mean without any possibility of misinterpretation is even harder
I just though I'd put this out there, an OP currently on the first page is complaining about the wording of a sign held by a homeless person on the side of the road and how it was offensive to the OP.
I write quite a bit and still screw up fairly regularly, imply things I didn't mean to say, have people take a completely different meaning from my words than what I intended to say by being vague. Even get things completely wrong through a brain fart, happened to me in a post today as a matter of fact.
I'd like it if we could give each other the benefit of the doubt when wordings aren't perfect, a lot of us dash posts off and don't really consider every word with the exquisite care necessary in order to be completely unambiguous. I'm certainly guilty also of jumping on language that's not precise and taking the worst possible interpretation. I do try not to be a complete ass about things but like everyone else I'm far from perfect, I have my blind spots and my prejudices.
Most of us on DU want similar things I believe but we differ wildly on strategy and tactics to get there and we also vary a great deal in our ability to express ourselves in exactly the manner we intend.
Give the other person the benefit of the doubt until you are sure of what they mean, it's ridiculously easy to misinterpret the words of others and few of us are really professional writers and not very many of us have editors for our DU posts to catch our screwups and brain farts.
MerryBlooms
(11,773 posts)OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)brer cat
(24,615 posts)K&R
longship
(40,416 posts)Self-effacing helps, too.
Thanks, Fume. Glad to R&K.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)I see you caught the self-effacing part.
Back at you.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)Skäl!
tblue37
(65,490 posts)read carefully and with an open mind. The point your OP makes is one I spend a lot of energy trying to get across to my students. I also use that point to explain why using words as precisely as possible is so important. My mantra is If it can be misunderstood, it will be misunderstood.
ON EDIT: I have to add, though, that all too often, the misinterpretation is deliberate, because too many people are looking for reasons to take offense. That attitude has become ubiquitous in public discourse today, and it has leaked into private discourse because it is so pervasive in our social milieu.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)All too often, people can READ the words and yet SEE what they want. It's much like the global warming critics: Global averages be damned! I've got 6 feet of snow in my yard that's never been there before!
stone space
(6,498 posts)So let's treat him like some teabagger who misspells "moron".
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Self deleted now.
Response to Agschmid (Reply #9)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Huge k & r.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)If someone can misunderstand, they will.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Even if they can't misunderstand they still will anyway.
We seem to have a few posters who specialize in that.
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)who wake up in the morning looking for ways to be offended. They are disappointed if they don't find any.
NanceGreggs
(27,819 posts)... I would agree with you. But that OP was truly despicable.
The irony is that you're talking about giving people the benefit of the doubt - people who interact with each here on a daily basis, many of them for years.
There is no missing the fact that the author of that post was completely unwilling to extend that same benefit to a complete stranger, someone whose thoughts or motives they couldn't possibly know.
If I ever get to a point where I see a homeless person in desperate straits and my first thought is to accuse them of sexism, I hope someone takes me out and shoots me.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)See how easy it is to be misinterpreted?
NanceGreggs
(27,819 posts)... which is why I specifically referred to it in my reply.
I am all for giving others the benefit of the doubt in many circumstances - such as posting on a message board, where misinterpretations of people's words, or the meaning behind them, are common.
I am not, however, willing to give that particular poster any benefit whatsoever. That OP was disgusting, and I am amazed that she would post it - obviously under some delusion that it would get a positive response.
Frankly, I don't understand how anyone could "misinterpret" the rather blatant assertion that a sign that reads "No home. No job. No woman" is offensive to women, or demonstrates "sexism".
Jesus Hussein Christ ...
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,819 posts)Which makes me wonder what response she thought she would get.
What kind of person posts something like that on the internetz, and actually think they're going to be applauded for it?
Things that make you go hmmm ...
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)I guess I tried to ignore that and look at only 1 part of what was being said thinking that it was like this OP says, poorly worded and willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Looking back, it did surprise me as I rarely agree with anything they write, any of their positions.
I was one who tookthe "no woman" part of it as sexist as placing a person in the category of a thing, a belonging, rather than a companion in life or even her own being. I read the OP as noticing sexism, not as bashing someone who was homeless and in need. I would like to read the OP again but it has been self deleted.
Knowing the op of that thread, it does not surprise me it went as it did and wonder if I was played.
NanceGreggs
(27,819 posts)... until she posted that OP.
I don't see that sign as even remotely sexist. A sign that said: "No job. No home. No woman."
A "job" is an occupation, and a source of income. A "home" is a place one resides - which could be a four-bedroom house in an upscale neighbourhood, a tiny rented apartment, a room in a shelter, even a couch in a friend's living room. A "woman" could be a wife, a lover, a friend, a companion.
I really don't understand how anyone could assume that a sense of "possession" was being implied, or that a job, a home, and a woman were all being conveyed as "things" simply because someone mentioned that he was without all three.
Sexism is real. That doesn't mean it exists everywhere - unless, of course, one is actually looking for it in even the most innocuous circumstances, in which case they will somehow always find it whether it's there or not.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)I don't look for sexism but it stood out for me there. I understand it didn't for everyone.
I also of course felt bad about the homelessness and joblessness, and would not ignore him because of his sign. I wanted to make that clear.
NanceGreggs
(27,819 posts)I never thought for a minute that you were a person who would have ignored him because of his sign. And if I came across as implying that, I apologize. Truly, that was not my intent.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Though I think that there are some legitimate things to discuss about the sign, the language used, and it's reflection on our culture, the OP showed little to no concern for the man. Some of the things they said later on were even worse.
You make a good point also about the fact that there are many DUers who have known and argued/debated with other on this board for years. The benefit of the doubt only goes so far. The question is, where do you draw that line?
NanceGreggs
(27,819 posts)... and as a female, I can't wrap my head around the idea that that sign was "sexist" in any way.
If I were to say "I have no job, no home, no man", would that - by any stretch of the imagination - lead a normal thinking person to assume that I was equating a man with a possession?
As I responded to that OP, the fact that she jumped to that conclusion says more about HER than it does about anything else.
I give no quarter to people like that, nor do I bother myself with trying to find an excuse for their behaviour.
My first thought reading that OP was of people I see in my own city who pass the homeless on the street, and say things like, "I'll bet he isn't homeless at all. I bet this is a scam for money to spend on liquor. I'm sure he isn't as bad off as he's pretending to be." My response to those people is always, "Why don't you just admit you're too god-damned cheap to part with a buck, instead of coming up with reasons why someone who's down-and-out doesn't deserve your compassion, or your money?"
Maybe "your sign is sexist" is the newest version of "fuck off" ...
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Well said. I know I made a mistake or two in what I meant in that exact thread, and ended up having to clarify what otherwise came off as not so nice
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)when in reality there should be a presumption of good faith.
Bryant
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Bettie
(16,129 posts)which can be frustrating. It takes so long to write a post to ensure that the language used offends no one.
This seems to be getting worse, with people offended about nearly everything.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)I will not tolerate misinterpreting poorly worded posts.
I'll put all you fuckers on ignore.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Absolutely!
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)I spoze you only approve of misinterpreting well-worded posts.
Where the hell do you get off with an attitude like that?
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)No, not really.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)For some of us it's all we got and you want to take it away. In fact, I am misinterpreting your post right now, not that you'd know since you already put me on ignore.
mythology
(9,527 posts)to write anything important that can't be either accidentally or willfully misinterpreted.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I remember back in 2002 if you wanted to criticize Dubya (not on DU) you had to spend half a page making sure everyone knew you loved America and the troops, motherhood, apple pie and the flag.
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)Why would you take your dog to a Broadway show anyway? It has nothing to do with standardized testing in the first place. If you can't see the difference between pornography, GMO, and circumcision... Well, then you have no business being a mime in the first place.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Glassunion
(10,201 posts)Last edited Wed Feb 25, 2015, 11:11 PM - Edit history (1)
I'm sorry pal, but what my wife and I do in our own boardroom, is none of big pharma's concern. If you really cared, you wouldn't parrot what the 1% has been shoving down our throats for the past decade about daytime running lights. We all know they should unionize, but there is so much push-back from the Cleavland Browns defense.
flying rabbit
(4,644 posts)link to The Browns defense. This is a liberal board and fax are often received but not recycled.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Good things happen when people assume good will instead of bad from others.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)You are one of the least ambiguous writers on DU and you have a better command of the facts than I do.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)refrain from putting words in other people's mouths and attribute political positions to them that they have never held?
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)...and I couldn't agree more. I saying this having rarely agreed with the writer of the post I believe you are referring to.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)The man holding the sign was not affected by the post. Maybe the OP should have included several disclaimers to avoid the onslaught of finger wagging.
Disclaimer1: I drove past a homeless person today and my heart immediately ached for them. I read the sign they were holding and as I drove past, I considered what it must feel like to have no job, no house, and no woman. Then my heart ached more when two words kept repeating in my mind, "no woman". Then I thought over my life and some of the women I've known and I realized that this idea that women are in the same category with jobs and houses has caused a great deal of pain in my life and in the life of women that I've known, and perhaps even some men that I've known. I thought about the effect that words have on a people. I thought about how this theme has played out in my life and I wondered how others might feel about. So when I got home I decided that I'd share my thoughts, here they are:
OP post
Disclaimer 2: I realize that this particular man may or may not have any feelings of ownership with regard to women, and that his word choices could be a result of a myriad things. His sign was simply a catalyst to a discussion on the issue.
Disclaimer 3: I would certainly help the man if I knew a way that I reasonably could.
Disclaimer 4: I recognize that homelessness is a much more serious issue than any women's issue could ever be.
Disclaimer 5: I would never consider the pain that I, or any other woman, has ever felt due to the idea that women are things to be owned to compare to the pain that this poor man is likely in.
Disclaimer 6: I feel quite sure the man will never see my post, otherwise, I would not post it.
etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.
And on and on until she couched the daring feat of bringing up a women's issue on DU in enough apologies that it would be acceptable and not the subject of ridicule.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)I recognize that young broke homeless people may sometimes express themselves in a manner that may appear to some as lacking in eloquence.
Disclaimer 242: My OP is about how the idea might affect women, not the homeless person.
Disclaimer 243: I realize that I'm a waste of life for having compassion for the women that this idea might effect, instead of focusing exclusively on the feelings of the homeless person.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)quell your OP outrage.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I did think the OP was rather heartless towards a young person obviously having a difficult time.
What if the sign said No Family, would that have implied the person thought they should own a family?
And here's how I responded in the thread in question.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6278927
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)and now there are independent threads created to wag the finger further. I just hate it when posters are finger wagged to death. I also notice that if a person dares to bring up a women's issue on this board, they are mercilessly hounded for commenting on the wrong, less important issue.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Would that have implied the young man thought he deserved to own a family?
NanceGreggs
(27,819 posts)prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Which is what my OP was about..
DU tends to run to the fairly well off although we have some poors on here as well, I see a lot of cluelessness here regarding what it's like to be truly busted with nothing at all to fall back on rather than "dead broke when we left the White House" poor.
I rather suspect there was a lot of pain on both sides of that sign, both the writer and the reader.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)I see a lot of cluelessness here regarding what it's truly like to be a woman in this society and an intolerance when that plight is given a voice for a moment instead of one of the other many plights.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)If that OP had indicated they felt any compassion at all for the young man the whole thread would have gone rather differently I think. Launching into what appears to be an agenda driven rant against someone who by all appearances is down and out is not a good way to get the sympathy of a lot of DUers, some of us have been there ourselves also, both men and women. In fact there is a female DUer facing very hard times at the moment that has nothing to do with the fact she is a woman and everything to do with the fact that she is broke and on the verge of homelessness.
It just came across as mean spirited whether it was meant that way or not and my OP was a suggestion that we all try not to be too quick to judge others on the basis of a few words that may not be chosen wisely or interpreted correctly, both that OP, the young man with the sign and everyone else here as well.
Not everyone who was being harsh on that OP was male by any means so I find it not very credible that out and out sexism or wishing to ignore women's issues had a great deal to do with the reaction.
I was almost shocked back during the Valentine hearts week at how many I got, a dozen I think, I don't really consider myself one of the "cool kids" here (if I am it would be a first in over sixty years) and I know I have a tendency to be blunt, abrupt, opinionated and sarcastic that I do try to stifle with varying degrees of success.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)for us all.
As an aside, sadly, their are many, many sexist women as well. Both men and women's ideas are similarly influenced by the culture.
And for the record, I do not begrudge a guy for theoretically choosing the wrong word. I just can't stand to see, what appears to me to be someone being ganged up on relentlessly. So, I think your original OP and my post were actually making the same point, in the end.
Thanks for talking with me!
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)because it was a stupid fucking OP. Sometimes it's just as simple as that.
treestar
(82,383 posts)But you have no problem jumping on her.
People ought to quit this kind of thing.
Say to her I care more about his homelessness than if he is sexist, crazy, or even conservative. Suppose you found out he supported Bush? And he's not sorry about it, and his homelessness isn't something he blames on the banksters and corporatists. You can simply point out you still for as sorry for him as any homeless liberal that could be found.
It's not impossible to hold two ideas in your head - that the guy is a sexist but he's homeless too.
People don't become angels because they are victims. In order to have fun judging another poster, people on DU will often use that as an emotional tool. I even had one person enraged because I suggested that one injured in an accident could still be at fault. They took the victim thing so far as to mean if you are hurt in a car accident, you can't be the one who caused the accident. Like the Universe makes sure only good and pure innocent people become victims.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)And I tried not to be nasty in this thread either.
Hatchling
(2,323 posts)I can relate to "no woman". Maybe he should have said no relationship, but there is rarely even friendship, much less an SO for the rootless ones. No money to date, no place to invite people over, no way to even look attractive to someone. It's a lonely scary life that is hard to get out of.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)I can't even imagine how terrified and sad I would be without shelter and companionship. I really don't think I'd make it long. You must be an incredibly strong person.
I do not begrudge the guy or his choice of words. I'm not arguing the merits of the original post, I'm just sick of people belittling every women's issue topic that comes up.....including the belittling the poster. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me and it has helped me relate better to why people had such a strong reaction to the original OP.
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)there were numerous examples of people who shared their experiences homelessness myself included. It was a piece of shit OP and trying to continue to make it about a supposed women's issue just compounds the original problem.
And just as you feel that women's issues get belittled, so too do issues of the homeless. That OP did exactly that.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)where a poster is being belittled for broaching a topic that affects those who are homeless, then I will stick up for them, just as I stick up for those who broach topics on "supposed" women's issues.
Conversations about the issues faced by those without homes is extremely important and I support any person who brings those topics up for discussion. Identifying the themes, attitudes and linguistical underpinnings that send over 150,000 women to the emergency room each year is also an important endeavor, in my opinion.
I understand that to you, and a vocal portion of this board, "supposed" women's issues are not as important as the issues affecting homeless people.
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)I didn't say they weren't important. Where did I say that women's issues were not important? Point out to me in my response to you where I said they weren't important. Since "attitudes and linguistical underpinnings" are so important to you, I'm sure you can point out exactly what words I said demonstrate your point.
But a lot of homeless people are condemned to death each year on the streets because their issues aren't as important as women's issues to people like you.
The OP was a piece of shit. I stand by my words your attempts to make a sociological issue out of a homeless man's sign not withstanding
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)an issue, of any kind, out of the man's sign. My point is, the OP was about a women's issue and it got derailed and the poster was lambasted because she had the audacity to bring up the topic with that fact pattern.
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)You may not see it that may. But the overwhelming majority of posters in that thread did and took offense.
And to say that if we take offense that means we are dumping on the issue of women's rights is bullshit and an intellectually lazy argument. You don't know anything about me yet you misconstrue my disgust for that OP as a lack of support for women's rights? I think you need to check your thinking
Hatchling
(2,323 posts)Just as many women are homeless as men and being a woman on the streets is more dangerous than being a man. The homeless women are more likely to be elderly as I am and not all of the have the skills I had to find my way out. They are disoriented and less likely to get their meds, if the meds aren't stolen from them, so their health deteriorates faster.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)DU recently helped out a member who was about to become homeless, it's not forbidden to ask for help on here.
Hatchling
(2,323 posts)I have gotten help here before. Some wonderful people helped me with vet expenses when one of my cats became ill.
However, I am fortunate enough to be computer literate enough to search and find assistance from charities here. I have been given a room in a homeless transit hotel for seniors and the first week in March I will be moved into an affordable housing studio so I won't be homeless anymore. It has been hell, a lot of which I put myself through. Pride leads to shame for what is perceived as a failure on my part to take care of myself. And the living conditions (mostly vermin) are far from what I was used to. And fear of the area I now inhabit and the almost daily ambulances stopping here to take away other clients who have become ill or died.
But, in two to three years my section 8 will be approved and I will be able to afford a 1 bedroom apartment again.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)You prompted one of my favorite OPs on Discussionist..
http://www.discussionist.com/10165053
Oklahoma is OK..
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...but taken out of the context of whatever it was I was commenting on.....
Oh, yeah, I think it was a comment on referring to Glen Greenwald by his initials.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)My sides still hurt the next day after that..
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)Last edited Wed Feb 25, 2015, 09:22 PM - Edit history (1)
before jumping someone's shit. What may seem obvious to the writer may very well not to others.
For instance, this post I thought meant not jumping on another DUer for a post that was misunderstood. I now see I was wrong and this thread is meant to castigate a DUer for taking offense at a sign that was viewed briefly.
So, I am removing my rec. It is good to clarify before jumping on someone's shit.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)last night and got my first ever "hide post" in 13 years. And I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
I only apologize that my avatar, the famous sign from the Memphis sanitation worker's strike of 1968, proposing the dignity of all individuals, apparently led some to think I am a man, and I was therefore accused of sexism. Or maybe they know I am not a man, and felt I committed the cardinal sin of emasculating someone who is a man. (That appears to be the biggest no no of all.)
Whatever the case. I wrote what I meant, in righteous indignation. And I don't apologize for that at all.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I got my first hide in several years recently for pretty much the same reason, that and the jury didn't take the time to look at an already hidden post to which I was referring.
As Skinner says, you takes your chances.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)and it did make a lot of people laugh.
ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)Bully!
countryjake
(8,554 posts)in the future. Shit happens.
I've been homeless before and I've got to say that having my dearest friend of 22 years right there alongside of me during that time made my outlook and possibilities a damn sight better than it would have been if I'd been a woman, alone, at the mercy of the elements (and this society).
He's my man, I'm his woman; we have never been married. Nothing much else to call one another.
Thanks for your thoughtful post, Fumesucker.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)And yeah, having someone with you who you know cares is a huge morale boost.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)- Blaise Pascal, 17th Century Mathematician
Brigid
(17,621 posts)My ignore list is up to eight right now -- an all-time high, and.mostly due to rudeness like in that thread.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)but having had a look through it, I think its failure is a lesson in the importance of human compassion.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Both the writer and the reader.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)and no doubt true.
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)And realized as the thread progressed that it's actually the way a professional Democratic politician should approach electoral politics if they intend to remain in office for as long as possible.
That thread depressed the hell out of me by the time it was done.
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)nolabear
(41,991 posts)The benefit of the doubt seems to be rushing toward extinction, and it's a huge loss.
w0nderer
(1,937 posts)this is as old as bbs's (before da intarwaebs)
take 24 hours to think over the message, did he/she mean what you think? even so interpret in best possible light
then reply...but you know...save it a couple of hours, then read reply again, can it be misunderstood?
then rephrase....
especially in a political or programming (high conflict) forum, this should be made a 'sticky' post
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Mis-speaking is one thing.
Doubling down into downright meanness toward a homeless person over a fucking word choice?
I don't want to see posts by those kinds of people.
TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)I didn't see the OP in question, but unfortunately a mean wind is blowing through DU these days.
Writing well is difficult, good writing rare. Yesterday I was reading a pretty standard sort of a contract from a horrendously expensive downtown law firm, and a key sentence was spectacularly ambiguous. This document, in roughly the same form, has probably been used hundreds of times and scrutinized by all kinds of people who knew what it meant to mean, but there was a second way to read it that was quite different.
Think of how much easier it is to flub a sentence when you don't have a fancy law degree and many people reviewing your work.
Thanks for the OP. Very good stuff.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)When I was teaching my kids to read one of them would substitute synonyms for the actual word on the page sometimes, she always knew what the sentence meant and never really missed that she would just use a word that meant the same..
After reading stories to them for the first five years or so I would have my kids read the books to me at bedtime and taught them to read the same way I did, putting the voices and emotions in the story. My synonym using daughter in particular turned out to be an excellent writer which has stood her in very good stead on the job market because it's a fairly rare skill, she has told me a number of times it was reading the stories out loud in the voices that helped her most to be a writer.
It wasn't really something I planned, I just hated hearing that monotone reading voice a lot of people have and didn't want to listen to it every night for years.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)that they're editing, for that reason.
That takes quite a bit of smarts to substitute a synonym like that, I'd think. I wonder if it's a different neural pathway from how most people read, Wernicke's area must be involved? She must be very, very facile with language! Sounds like it's at least partly due to your making words interesting for her.
When I try to instruct our son and others on how to write, I tell them that written language serves to approximate speech. Hear the speech in your mind, then use the words and punctuation necessary to specify what you hear. Put a comma when you pause, a paragraph where you take a breath and so forth. Punched-up writing is as interesting as the punched-up speech it recreates.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Her first husband was a Marine NCO when they were married and several years after and she picked up some interesting vocabulary from being a Marine wife.. I've heard drill instructors with less command of colorful invective, it's something to behold..
My grandkids step very lightly indeed...
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)What an embarrassment.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Damansarajaya
(625 posts)and motivations which were based on simple misunderstandings or willful twisting of implications.
Let's assume that someone with 25,000 posts and ten years on DU is probably a real ally and not a deep troll intent on sowing discontent, okay?
nilesobek
(1,423 posts)I had a short term, maybe six months career panhandling in California, one of the many mean streets I found myself homeless in.
After some consideration, I realized that the sign itself was a big lever. Not to just appeal to the fact that we were in a bad way and needed money. No, I figured out a political angle that served us very well.
"Obama, change we need," was one of my unashamed signs. Another was, "money for war and not for us?" And many others. I never felt bad about those signs because they were just there to get money and carry on another day.
One guy, another homeless person, he looked in his 60s, had this sign that said, "Please help my family." But one night, while he was sleeping, some other homeless jokesters altered his sign by one word. The new panhandling sign said, "Please help my MANSON family." He panhandled all day with that sign with predictably bad results until he noticed it.
Rex
(65,616 posts)above most of the people I know. It is rare to have someone reflect on what they wrote and delete it imo. No matter what she meant, she showed a lot of maturity and decided it wasn't worth fighting about. I can't say I am big enough to do that.
As for writing, we all fuck up trying to say what we mean at times. Maybe you are right and there was something from her history that provokes that response. I admit I didn't not even think of that.
The guy was just looking for some help. Really hard to criticize someone holding up a sign that shows they have nothing in life but a piece of cardboard and a marker.
NanceGreggs
(27,819 posts)... because she got her ass handed to her after posting it.
"The guy was just looking for some help. Really hard to criticize someone holding up a sign that shows they have nothing in life but a piece of cardboard and a marker."
Exactly. The poster had plenty of time to "reflect" on that before she posted what she did - but she posted it anyway.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Posting in haste can lead to a verbal ass whupin around these parts. I've done it and lost chunks of be-hind. Maybe she is even embarrassed for posting it. IMO, it is always bad form to criticize the downtrodden. Malnutrition does horrible things to the mind and body. Who knows what he meant.
I think it is safe to say the OP should have just given him the benefit of the doubt.
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)On her opinion even after 100 posts called her on it. No sympathy from me.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I got a PM this morning from her thanking me for writing it. I gently pointed out that it was written both about her and to her and wished her well.
Something about the words on that sign were an emotional trigger for her, brought back some horrible memory, the more I think about it the more I'm convinced that was written out of pain that has morphed into something like anger and resentment.
One of the things abusers tend to say is "you are mine, you belong to me", the OP may well have experienced that.
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)that the poster could have examined her words right then and there and engaged people as to why they were so upset. I asked her on several occasions to explain how she came to her conclusions. She chose not to.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Believe me, all of this has happened to me more times than I care to count.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)As a writer, I'm frequently surprised (and frustrated) by how few people understand that there's a difference (to paraphrase Truman Capote) between typing and writing.
No clue about appropriate word choice, tone, context, etc.
I don't believe the homeless person with the sign intended to imply that he saw women as objects to possess. It sounded to me that he was just lamenting how his life is devoid of meaning: a meaningful job, a meaningful relationship, a meaningful purpose.
When I read that OP, I remembered my reaction to that Rolling Stone article on the now discredited rape story at UVA. When it was first published, I was unable to finish reading the article because of its disturbing nature and, specifically, because of the quote: "Hold its motherfucking leg" (or something close to that).
I was enraged and literally made sick to my stomach by someone dehumanizing another human being like that; it bothered me so much, I couldn't finish reading the article.
So I get how one can be outraged at dehumanizing a woman into an object. I just didn't see where that homeless guy was expressing such a despicable sentiment based on what was in the OP.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Is like the difference between the lightning and the lightning bug. -Mark Twain
riqster
(13,986 posts)I completely agree with your post. Well said!
cbayer
(146,218 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)I've been browbeat over crap I never intended, simply because I didn't say what I had to say in a way that covered every possible scenario. I've taken to just letting that sort nonsense just slide. Not worth the effort to convince someone who's on a self-righteous rant.
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)Got it completely right!
mmonk
(52,589 posts)I hope to keep it as simple as possible to avoid misinterpretations.
ananda
(28,877 posts)I always chalked it down to lack of impulse control on my part,
kind of like the uninhibited id. Part of life is learning self-control,
and I hope I am getting there.
I try to be more careful when writing, but as you say, nobody's
perfect.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)to the saying, "We don't see things the way they are, we see them as we are".
You can try till your face turns blue to try and word something so nobody will take it the wrong way, but it just will never happen.
Someone, somewhere, is going to be upset or offended.
Sometimes I think it's because the offended person has some sort of personal stake in believing the worst, and isn't likely to change his or her mind no matter how hard the writer tries to explain.
Sometimes a person will disagree with an idea but is unable or unwilling (too lazy?) to explain why, so the person will zone in on a word as a way to refute the entire argument.
Then there are the really sad cases...inability or unwillingness to debate a point, so they pick on a person's grammar and/or spelling. In public, hoping to shame someone, but really they're only making themselves look like damned fools.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)A perceptive and timely post.
I read the article about the homeless guy, and it seemed unfortunate and cold-hearted that someone would withhold assistance to a homeless person because of a completely subjective sense of insult.
When I read the post which said the sign was "No job. No home. No woman. No . . . .", I had to ask myself what the message was. Did he lose his job to an overseas move? Did he lose his home because of a heartless banking system? Did he lose his wife as the result of a tragedy?
I know that if Mrs. 'Droid were to die, I might be so incapable of functioning that I might lose my job and home.
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)minor thing to claim massive outrage, because they don't want to admit that they have sold their soul to Monsanto/Exxon/Halliburton. This is a favorite troll tactic.
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)Yes. Writing is hard. It's very hard. Especially in this age of the Internet when previously private thoughts can be spread around the world in a matter of minutes. I get it.
But you know what else is hard...probably even harder? Owning up to the words you take the trouble to put down on a medium. Yes...It's possible that we may have misunderstood the poster just as they misunderstood the sign they apparently couldn't wait to trash when she got in front of a computer. But the poster never took the opportunity to clarify her remarks in a very long thread even when asked to do so. Several posters pointed out the fact there were some problems with the OP's logic yet the OP never addressed this. You don't get to write something and, when faced an overwhelmingly negative reaction, either not address the criticisms or erase the very writing that people had a problem with.
Sorry...If you put it out there, you can't hide behind the shield of misconception when people challenge you. It's not a copy editors job nor another posters job to clarify the meaning of the words you yourself have chosen to put out to the world. If you aren't willing to take ownership of those words and defend them if you think they are true, then those words amount to nothing. Absolutely nothing.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)"You are mine, I *own* you" is a fairly common thing for abusers to say, often repeatedly..
I think that OP quite likely had something like that in her past and it was triggered by the sign..
For what it's worth my OP was written not only about that OP but also to her as well, a plea not to take things so personally when we really don't know the actual meaning.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)Even been published a bit. Heh..... the actual words and their spelling is the easy part. It's WHAT they convey thru the way you've strung them together that'll always be vulnerable to interpretation.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)I wrote "You cannot over-knead pasta dough". My son, was reading it, and asked "Do you mean 'it is impossible to over-knead pasta dough' or 'you should be careful not to over-knead it'?"
I re-wrote it as "it is impossible to over-knead pasta dough".
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Even pointing out that they took offense to something.
ashling
(25,771 posts)Grammar, perfectly understood,
enables us not only to express our meaning fully and clearly,
but so to express it as to enable us to defy the ingenuity of man
to give to our words any other meaning than that which
ourselves intend them to express.
William Cobbett