Obama to ban the ammo used in AR15's

[glasshouses]

because now it could be used in handguns.
These bullets can pierce bullet proof vests
and now it can be used in handguns.



http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/02/27/lawmakers-wont-be-silenced-over-obama-administration-proposed-ammo-ban/


Lawmakers won't be silenced over Obama administration's proposed ammo ban

[misterhighwasted]

1. A good & reasonable start, Mr President

What hunter needs those bullets?
Are deer & grouse wearing bullet proof vests now?

[NYC_SKP]

2. "Can be used in handguns"?

That's a bit of a stretch.

I suppose if you shorten the barrel and the stock of any rifle it begins to take on characteristics of a handgun, but it's not a handgun or a pistol.

I Googled AR pistol and AR handgun and all I got were modified rifles.

That cartridge is not a handgun or pistol cartridge.

Weird story, Fox News!

[madokie]

3. The way I read it is

that manufacturers are now making hand guns that can chamber the rounds.

[NYC_SKP]

6. Earlier stories seemed concerned only with the alleged armor piercing aspect.

But a pistol that uses an AR-15/M16 cartridge, I don't know about that.

However, the ATF believes the introduction of a new firearm impacts the bullets' legal status. A semiautomatic pistol, based on a shortened AR-15 rifle, can fire such 5.56mm ammunition and raises a question of whether there are sufficient existing "sporting" interests with that weapon that warrant the bullets' continued legal protection.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2015/02/26/ATF-proposes-ban-on-armor-piercing-ammo-for-AR-15/6141424997018/#ixzz3SzRqd1AC

Modified rifle, that I can imagine. It's a silly idea, I see no use for it even for self defense. It would not be marketable in California, AFAIK.

[Mnpaul]

42. You can buy single shots as well

You have to search for ".223 pistol"
http://www.gunsandammo.com/network-topics/the-guns-network/first-look-heizer-defense-par1-pocket-ar-pistol/

but I wouldn't care to shoot it. My friend had a Mini-14 that used that ammo. When lying prone, it would move the grass 8 feet in front of the gun. He had armor piercing rounds that would go through 1" steel in a trailer hitch. It would almost go through two of them.

[NYC_SKP]

47. Do you mean it would go through the drawbar of a trailer hitch, solid iron?

That's crazy!

[Mnpaul]

49. The part where the ball attaches - yes

I read the piece linked above. The military spec calls for a max chamber pressure of 55,000 psi. That is why I think it is crazy to use this gun for home defense. It could go through several houses.

[NYC_SKP]

50. Indeed, any rifle with even ordinary ammo will go through several walls and a kid or two.

Home defense calls for a shotgun or, for a handgun or rifle, at least some type of fragmenting round, IMO.

[razorman]

59. Those pistols have been around for a long time.

Based on the AR-15 action. I owned one about ten years ago. Found it awkward and impractical. Not easily concealed or transported, so I got rid of it. For home defense, a pump shotgun would be far superior, too. As far as I know, these handguns have not been very popular. Also, it is a stretch to call the newly-banned ammo "armor-piercing". The reason that the military dropped it from inventory is that it was not all that effective. So, I am not sure of the president's reasoning for banning this ammo. I don't really see a political upside in it for him, either. It is only one type of ammo available in this caliber. There are several others. Also keep in mind that if he bans it through executive fiat, it can be overturned by the next president, whoever he or she is.

[Travis_0004]

12. The AR-15 can be built into a legal handgun.

Nobody would look at it and think thats a handguns, but according to ATF definitions it is legally a handgun.

The AR-15 as a handgun has probably been around since the mid 1970s. Maybe earlier. Its gaining in popularity now, but the design is 40 years old.

[glasshouses]

15. Are not some models sold as handguns directly from the manufactures ?

I believe some are built from the factory as handguns .

[Travis_0004]

16. Yes

I could also convert one from a rifle to a handgun in about 3 minutes, no tools needed. Maybe a 10.00 wrench, or maybe not needed.

[mybuddy]

55. A very illegal handgun.

Once a rifle always a rifle. See BATFE form 4473.

[Drahthaardogs]

53. They are carbines. The action is far too large to engage the cartridge.

There is no way they can fired with one hand nor concealed. Kind of a stretch.

[dumbcat]

56. No, they are not carbines

They are by BATFE definition pistols. Barrel under 16" and a pistol grip and no shoulder stock.

I've built several from stripped lowers. In fact, I build all my stripped lowers into pistols first, and then convert them to rifles, or short barreled rifles, so I can always convert them back to pistols. Once a firearm is "born" a rifle it cannot be legally converted to a pistol.

And they can be fired with one hand with no problem whatsoever. I do it all the time. As far a concealing, I'll give you that it would be a challenge in regular street clothes.

[hack89]

4. Not really. They are banning just one of many available bullets.

5.56mm ammo comes in many different versions.

[misterhighwasted]

5. Its a small start for mankind..

The giant leap will take a miracle

[hack89]

7. It is a meaningless gesture

that will ignite a political firestorm with no tangible impact on public safety.

[Savannahmann]

24. But it's the standard they're using.

Ammunition fired from a handgun that can penetrate the standard soft body armor of a cop. That body armor is Level IIIA which is designed to stop pistol ammunition. It won't stop any rifle round. The 5.56 is a rifle round. You could shoot a Level IIIA vest with a plain military surplus round, no green tip, and it would go right through. You could shoot it with any 5.56 ammunition and it will not stop the bullet.

So by that standard, any and all 5.56 ammunition is in violation of the law.

[hack89]

25. The law is specific to armor piercing ammo with materials and construction.

it does not apply to all rifle ammo.

[Blue_Tires]

29. I've read this and I still don't know the real difference

Translation for the layman, please?

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

[hack89]

32. Military 5.56mm is based on the civilian.223

but there are slight differences, the important one being it is slightly more powerful and therefore generates more pressure when fired. It is safe to fire .223 in a rifle chambered for 5.56mm but not necessarily the opposite.

[sarisataka]

43. If the ammo was gasoline

.223 would be 88 octane and 5.56 would be 92.

Mostly interchangeable but putting 92 in a lawnmower could damage it and putting 88 in your Ferrari will still make it go but the performance will not be at it's best.

[Kingofalldems]

8. Gun republicans not liking this one.

[TeeYiYi]

9. Snopes...

...has a response:

Claim: The BATF plans to ban "green tip" ammunition due to an executive order issued by President Obama.

TRUE: The BATF has proposed a reclassification of "5.56mm constituent projectiles of SS109 and M855 cartridges" from "primarily used for sporting purposes" to "armor piercing ammunition."

FALSE: President Obama initiated the proposed reclassification, or codified it through executive order.

<snip>

While it's true that the ATF proposed a ban on "green tip" ammunition in February 2015, President Obama was not involved through executive action of any description. The ATF described the proposal as the result of a long-term examination, several years in the making, of whether the ammunition fit the criteria for an exemption for sporting purposes:

In light of recent developments in the firearm and ammunition marketplace, ATF sought input from industry, law enforcement organizations, and the general public on the application of the unique "sporting purpose" exemption set forth in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). In November 2012, ATF held four meetings with interested parties representing law enforcement, the firearms and ammunition industries, and non-governmental organizations. In addition, after completion of these meetings, ATF also solicited and accepted comments from the general public through December 31, 2012. All of that input was considered in interpreting the meaning of the statutory language, and developing the framework described below.

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ammoban.asp#wxVkpFuJDDJb9KO2.99

TYY

[libodem]

10. Good idea

Then they can be collectors items and not killing machines

. Nobody needs that much fire power except for mayhem.

[Travis_0004]

14. .223 is a small round.

Its one of the smallest rifle rounds available.

[madokie]

30. except for the 17 caliber ones

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/caliber-rifles-sale-online-store-firearms-c-9935_13987_14246_16479.html

This is bb sized. Friend has one and its a tiny projectile

[hack89]

26. In many state it is illegal to hunt with that round

Last edited Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:47 PM - Edit history (1)

because it is not leathal enough for deer. It is not a high power round by any stretch of the imagination.

[glasshouses]

36. From the reading by Remington arms it was developed for the M16 automatic rifle as a military round

[hack89]

39. A typical 30 caliber deer hunting round has 3 times the power

there are few rifle rounds that were not originally used for military purposes so that means nothing. The 5.56mm was based on the civilian .223 - they are nearly identical.

[Travis_0004]

40. Relevance?

When the round was invented there was a need for a smaller less powerful round than current military rounds.

[sir pball]

41. Just to be pedantic and picky, it was developed for the M249

The lightweight 5.56-caliber "squad automatic weapon" belt-fed machine gun that was adopted by NATO in the 80s. Long story short, the old 5.56 ammo the US used didn't have the range or penetrating power NATO needed so the Belgians actually invented the SS109 bullet to satisfy the requirements. After that, we standardized on it for assault rifles as well since it would be a logistical nightmare to try and have two separate rounds in common use.

Anyway, that being said, I'm not overly troubled by this proposal - there's plenty of traditional 62-grain ammo available that's just as dangerous to wearers of soft body armor (it simply doesn't stop rifles of any caliber); I think the outcry is mostly just the "Tactical Teddys" getting all bent that they can't get "real" military ammo. On the other hand, the SS109 bullet doesn't meet the ATF's own definition of AP since it's got quite a large lead slug behind the steel tip. Just on that basis, I don't see a court challenge ending well, assuming the proposal even passes.

[Duckhunter935]

45. Thanks for the post, interesting

[lpbk2713]

11. Pres Obama was not involved in the process.

Per Snopes: http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ammoban.asp


While it's true that the ATF proposed a ban on "green tip" ammunition in February 2015, President Obama was not involved through executive action of any description. The ATF described the proposal as the result of a long-term examination, several years in the making, of whether the ammunition fit the criteria for an exemption for sporting purposes ...

[spanone]

13. as usual fox 'news' has it wrong.

[Electric Monk]

20. I found a nice Luckovich 'toon that seems fitting...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026289784

[madokie]

31. As a kid growing up back in the 50s

we used 22 rifles for squirrel hunting. If you used a 22 long rifle ammo many times the squirrel would die still in the tree but if you used a 22 short it would come tumbling down. The 22 long rifle is a lot faster and it would simply go through the squirrel and many times leave it on the limb it was on but a 22 short and its slow speed would knock them right out of the tree. So we used 22 shorts

We have no need for the projectile in question as best I can tell.

[spanone]

38. agreed.

[ileus]

17. Good news is there's still dozens of great projectiles to choose from.

Last edited Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:13 PM - Edit history (1)

Sad truth is someone is dumber than rocks, a simple 223 FMJ of any type will zip on through any body armor that doesn't have plates. Your simple "bulletproof" vest is designed to stop handgun rounds not centerfire rifle rounds of any type.

[Electric Monk]

18. There are already a few threads on this in the Gungeon. Please continue there when this gets locked.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1172

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=160924
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172162113

[dilby]

19. Wont matter there are other rounds to choose from.

He would be much better off banning all hand gun caliber rounds if he really gave a shit about gun violence. This is just pandering to the low informed soccer moms to make them feel safe at night.

[glasshouses]

21. The way I understand it these bullets have a steel core inside

where other bullets on the market do not.

[dilby]

22. Most rifle rounds will go through bullet proof vests steel core or not.

Bullet proof vests were designed to stop hand gun caliber rounds.

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. Obama should do everything in his power to stick it to these assholes day and night

Give the pigs something to really squeal about.

[madokie]

33. I'm all for that

[Fred Sanders]

27. "It is only logical." Illogical and painfully simplistic to suggest that Obama can "ban" anything.

[hunter]

28. As I heard it, gun lovers are all hot about some surplus ammunition that's about to hit the market.

Fuck 'em.

I'm alerting this thread too.

[liberal N proud]

34. There you go, now he is coming for your guns

I knew it, I knew it!

[X_Digger]

35. Stupid proposal, terrible news interpretation.

It's not banning all 5.56, so all the astroturf gun groups will get all pissy because it doesn't go far enough, it'll be a black eye for dems who will further expose their ignorance about the subject once again ('shoulder thing that goes up', for $400, Alex), and it will rile up rethiglicans.

Lose, lose, lose.

Morons.

[Logical]

44. Of course you forgot to say all the gun nuts will get pissy because he banned anything. nt

[X_Digger]

46. Well, at this point, nothing has been banned at all. n/t

[Kaleva]

37. Snopes.com calls bs on this headline

"FALSE: President Obama initiated the proposed reclassification, or codified it through executive order."

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ammoban.asp

[indie9197]

48. I think pistols that shoot .30 carbine ( M1 ammo) have been around for decades.

Like Ruger Blackhawks, for instance. And I believe that a .30 carbine would go thru body armor.

[Kaleva]

51. The M1 fires what is essentially a handgun cartridge.

The .30 Carbine has the same case length as the .357, .41 and .44 Magnums.

Level III and IV body armor will provide protection against .30 cal. rounds.

http://nist.gov/oles/upload/ballistic.pdf

[mybuddy]

52. Will not penetrate body armor

A pistol length barrel would not produce enough velocity on a 5.56 cartridge to do anything to body armor.

[krispos42]

54. Incorrect.

The ban is on one kind of bullet, because the internal construction is, according to the ATF, "armor piercing".

And with the development of so-called "AR-15" pistols, now the M855 cartridge is considered a pistol cartridge as well as a rifle cartridge. And since armor piercing pistol ammunition is outlawed...

[B2G]

57. What I find odd about this, is

the ATF is supposedly doing this because they are a danger to law enforcement, but the police are saying they aren't.


"Many police organizations are also not in favor of the ban.

“The notion that all of a sudden a new pistol requires banning what had long been perfectly legal ammunition doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense to many officers,” William Johnson, executive director of the National Association of Police Organizations, told FoxNews.com

NAPO represents over 1,000 police units and associations and 241,000 law enforcement officers around the country."

[LittleBlue]

58. This pointless pandering is just causing a ton of ammo to be sold

And fuelling turnout for Repubs. Does zero to keep people safe as more powerful rounds are available. In the end, it might not even survive a legal challenge.

Absolute farce.