If US fails, PM signals Sunni Arab states, we’ll hold the line against Iran

[Mosby]

In his long-anticipated, much-derided speech to Congress, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu offered far more than an argument against the emerging nuclear deal with Iran. Subtly, carefully, he laid out the first sketchy outlines of a new architecture of power in the Middle East.

-snip-

And if American acquiescence and miscalculation is seen by the governments of the region as being responsible for that outcome, trust in the American security umbrella will erode. If America allows Iran to come within striking distance of constructing a nuclear weapon, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates, even Turkey, Azerbaijan and others will begin a profound reassessment of their current reliance on the United States.

Some will choose to nestle deeper into the American fold in the hope that the American umbrella would deter overt Iranian aggression. Some will pivot toward Iran, move under its shadow and hope to be protected from the ayatollahs’ designs through obeisance. Still others may take the more terrifying route, responding to an Iranian nuclear capability with the development of their own indigenous programs.

On Tuesday, Netanyahu may have begun the construction of a fourth option, an Israeli option. Israel, Netanyahu effectively proclaimed, would serve as a strategic counterweight to Iran that the states of the region could depend on. Israel would not negotiate their interests away, because Iran was Israel’s mortal enemy. It could not leave the region because, unlike America, it lived there. It had the will – “Even if Israel has to stand alone, Israel will stand,” Netanyahu said – and could provide the military and political might that could convince regional governments to choose resistance over acquiescence.

-snip-

http://www.timesofisrael.com/if-us-fails-pm-signals-sunni-arab-states-well-hold-the-line-against-iran/

[elleng]

1. So the US gets to withdraw our $$$$$$ contributions to Israel for its defense, right?

Sounds like a good deal!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

2. Apparently, Bibi thinks that America may not be suckered again..and..again..and again.

[Aerows]

38. I think it is not so much a rude awakening

so much as, wow, I fooled you for this long?

[leveymg]

3. Netanyahu finally admits it - the Israeli military is a Saudi militia.

ISIS has too many liabilities. Al Qaeda is too small to do the job. Where you gonna turn?

[Mosby]

4. I'll take the Saudis over Hezbollah, Hamas and the Revolutionary Guard any day.

Any informed person would admit that Iranian aggression is a MAJOR problem in the ME and Gulf.

[cali]

6. what bullshit. the Saudis are every bit as active- and culpable

and fuck that disgusting piece of shit, Netanyahu. He's contemptible.

[Mosby]

7. Prove it.

There is no evidence the Saudis are funding ISIS.

And it's not Bibi that's in bed with the Saudis, it's this guy:

President Barack Obama defended Tuesday the need to maintain a close alliance with Saudi Arabia, a strategic U.S. ally with a poor human rights record, shortly before leaving India for a short visit to the Gulf Kingdom.

But even as the U.S. works closely with the Saudis on common strategic goals like counterterrorism, Obama said he and his administration continue to apply "steady, consistent pressure" on issues like human rights. Obama is headed to Saudi Arabia to meet the new King Salman and pay his respects following the death of King Abdullah last week.

"Sometimes we have to balance our need to speak to them about human rights issues with immediate concerns that we have in terms of countering terrorism or dealing with regional stability," Obama said in an interview with CNN's Fareed Zakaria in India on Tuesday.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/27/politics/obama-saudi-arabia-zakaria/

You got a problem with the Saudis, take it up with our president.

[cali]

9. you're kidding, right? It's hardly a secret that the Saudis have long funded

terrorism- from Al-Qaeda to ISIS and much more.

Here's a recent article.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article9455504.html

There is an abundance of articles and scholarly pieces on this. As I said, not a fucking secret. And anyone who is even the tiniest bit INFORMED, is aware of this. Perhaps you shouldn't be lecturing people about being informed.

As for fucking shitstain Nuttyasswipe, he can stay the fuck out of U.S. foreign policy. Oh and dershy can go fuck himself as well. He's vile- and I know that personally.

[Mosby]

18. Funny how you had nothing to say about this bullshit

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6312217

Yeah, we are way worse than Iran, fuck we are the very epitome of evil. Right?

PS I said nothing about KSA funding al-qaeda.

[Comrade Grumpy]

35. Desperate flailing.

[Mosby]

39. bringing KSA into it like levy did is a diversion

There are many countries in the ME, Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Israel and others who have significant issues with Iran's nuclear program. The IAEA as well. If the US drops the ball others will deal with the issue.

[sendero]

57. It's not our ball to drop..

... we are not responsible for fixing every fucking problem in the ME. If Israel or any one else there doesn't think our efforts measure up, they are free to get off their fucking asses and do it themselves.

[Aerows]

14. Considering how

Bibi took it up with our Congress against our president, I'm pretty sure you don't want to be advocating that right about now.

You can, but I assure you it won't do you any favors on Democratic Underground. You know, those folks that support the Democratic party and generally took offense to Netanyahu's arrogant, disgraceful actions.

[840high]

41. ...^ that

[leveymg]

8. Tell that to the folks who used to work at One and Two World Trade Center

[cali]

11. incredible to see such pernicious crap. Whitewashing SA while

demonizing Iran- and beatifying Nutfuckyahoo.

[Aerows]

13. Some people

live in a serious bubble. SA was, is and is still funding ISIS, funded AlQueda and are as damned backward about beheading people as ISIS is.

If those are our allies, we are in serious trouble. Further, Netanyahu illustrated that while the US is his ally, he isn't the US's ally. Notice I said "Netanyahu" not every person in Israel or even most of them.

[Comrade Grumpy]

17. The Likudnik line.

[Scootaloo]

31. lolwhut

Literally nothing you just said makes any sense whatsoever.

[Aerows]

10. Good.

Get to it, I say, and you can do it without our arms and financial contributions. It has long since chapped my ass that Israel has national health security while we don't and we have to support them by sending them billions.

Insulting our President by conspiring with Republicans makes me even more in agreement with those that say we need to stop funding them.

If Bibi wants to fight, which would be stupid, then he needs to do so with his own countrymen and his own treasure, not mine. He's the epitome of "let's you and him fight". I'm pretty certain that the rational people of Israel would view that as a bad idea. I know most American Jews think so.

The folks that think this made Americans, Jewish and otherwise, more sympathetic to Bibi's ambitions for war with Iran are due for a reality check.

[Mosby]

16. I agree with you to a point

Maybe the US should stop funding Israel, the Palestinians and Egypt, but if they do I don't think that going to make the ME safer.

The main point of the article I posted is that the Iranian issue is not just about Israel, if the US drops the ball the nuclear issue is not going to just go way, the gulf states, Israel, Turkey, Iraq and others are going to go at it alone without the west.

That's not in the US's best interest or Irans.

[Aerows]

22. The US is the place

where we decide what is in the US's best interests. Insulting our President is absolutely not the way to go about doing so.

I can't even fault most Israelis - their biggest problem is the blowhards like Netanyahu that are in their government and have never heard of a war they don't want everyone else to fight for them. I honestly think that if Israel had to stand on it's own, expend the lives of their people in reckless warmongering endeavors, the Israeli people would vote people like Netanyahu out of office post-haste.

Quit funding them. Use that money to establish a national health care program for our citizens, and let Israel tend to Israel's business, not the US's business - which is absolutely OUR decision to make with regards to who we make both peace and war with.

[Mosby]

48. bibi's comments are positively tame compared to the garbage posted here every f-ing day

check this out:

Mickey Z. -- World News Trust

March 7, 2015

Our history books and newspaper headlines portray an ever-benevolent United States as minding its own business, yet incessantly plagued by surprise events and unprovoked threats to test its celebrated patience.

This long record of conjuring up dubious rationales to wage war indicts those on both sides (sic) of the proverbial aisle -- equally.

As corporate-funded war criminal Barack Obama once declared: "We're leading the fight against nuclear dangers. We've applied the strongest sanctions ever on … nations that cannot be allowed to threaten the world with nuclear weapons."

Yep, since Iran obviously has the audacity to make decisions without first asking for U.S. (or Israeli) permission, we are now faced with the spectacle of America -- the only nation to have used nuclear weapons on civilians -- warning the world about how nuclear weapons might be, well, used on civilians.

Of course, this is very familiar ground for the Land of the Free™.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016116306

[Aerows]

49. The person stating that

is not a head of state visiting a governing body of another state to speak against their head of state.

I believe you also know the difference.

[Mosby]

50. yes, I get the difference

But Bibi is conservative, so it's not surprising when he tries to undermine and/or one up a democratic POTUS.

OTOH, there really is no excuse for the anti-Obama invective seen here every day, all day.

[Aerows]

51. So citizens that are concerned about their government

are identical to heads of state speaking to the governing body of said state having been arranged without the knowledge of the head of state (President Obama) are equal.

Good to know. I look forward to any posts you make that criticize the actions of anyone that is American, Jewish, Hebrew, Black, White, Israeli, ... because it's exactly the same as stepping into your house and screaming in your face.

I'm certain you will approve of someone coming in your own house, insulting you verbally then letting their dogs piss on the carpet and saying it was a peaceful discussion? Why not?

[Mosby]

54. all I was doing was making an observation

I agreed with you that comparing the statements from a leader of a foreign country is quite a bit different than a post on a discussion board, at least I thought I did.

Jesus christ.

[Aerows]

55. And you both failed

and took Christ's name in vain.

[leveymg]

30. The Saudis already have the bomb - in Pakistan

And Bush Sr. let AQ Khan build it with funds stolen by BCCI with the help of the CIA.

[Aerows]

40. Which gets ignored

and Israel is not a signatory of the NPT. Because they are sitting on about 400 from them that they got from France. Who, by the way, Bibi took the opportunity to insult also recently.

[cali]

12. The Times of Israel is as Right Wing as it gets.

[Mosby]

32. no, not true.

They are in the center politically.

[Octafish]

15. I hope Bibi doesn't use the Bomb on Iran.

Who knows besides Clapper what treaties and secret agreements are going on that could lead to peace?

[madokie]

21. I wouldn't trust the worm to not for one second

it seems as if he is pushing hoping that maybe someone will do something that will allow him to justify in his little racist mind to do exactly that.

[madokie]

19. F you nuttinyahoo

what we need to do is cut your allowance off.

[Aerows]

23. Yes, we do.

It's way past time for that.

[madokie]

24. If they can't stand on their own they need to disappear

I mean they Are on stolen land to begin with and are stealing more all the time. Fuck 'm I say. Pushing the Palestinians off into the sea. Where else are they going to go. Yes, the holocaust was bad, wrong, terrible any number of ways to describe the way it was but that doesn't give the Israeli's the right to treat their neighbors as they do. Israel sucks as far as I can tell from paying attention to what is going on in that region over the last 40 or so years.
They don't even attempt to try to be peaceful. Maybe i'm wrong and I'm sure someone will be along to correct me and thats fine but I want to hear real argument
Sorry IMHO

[Aerows]

25. I support Israel's right to exist

I just don't support our military getting dragged into the conflicts their leadership seems to want to engage in constantly. They can charge right in and create as many conflicts as they think they can stand, but I think I speak for most Americans, White, Black, Hebrew, Jewish, etc. when I say that if they want to keep hitting folks in their area in the eye, they need to be prepared for the consequences.

You can't just keep stirring up trouble then running back to big brother to fight for you. They need better leadership. The Prime Minister insulting the people that are their allies while creating their own problems is both arrogant and stupid. They did it to France, now they are doing it here.

If you are going to strut around like a bantam rooster, you'd best be able to back it up - eventually, you are going to meet someone that is going to take up your challenge.

[Mosby]

33. I talk to liberal Jews almost every day

And we support Israel and want to see it survive and all of it's citizens flourish.

[Aerows]

34. Then I am sure

that you know that what I stated was correct.

Israel can't continue allowing PM's like Netanyahu lead them without consequences. Americans elected Bush the "cowboy" idiot, and look what that cost us. Israel should learn from our mistakes.

I, too, wish to see Israel flourish. At some point you have to turn the swords into plowshares for that to happen.

[Mosby]

43. your post is historically inaccurate

Jews have lived in Israel, Judea, Samaria and the Levant for thousands of years, they are indigenous to the region and have never abandoned Israel, their ancestral homeland.

The occupation persists because the Palestinian leadership refuse to negotiate in good faith, they have repeatedly turned down offers and now won't even negotiate various issues individually, claiming that somehow benefits the Israelis.

Fact is that the Palestinians are being led by unelected dictators who have absolutely no reason to make peace with Israel, these leaders have been promoting for decades the idea that all of Israel belongs to them and for whatever reason a lot of progressive/liberal commentators have bought into the idea.

Israel has peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan, but all their other borders are now controlled by terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah who have attacked them repeatedly with missiles and cross border kidnapping raids. The resulting conflicts cannot be blamed on Israel, they have demonstrated over and over that they want to live in peace with their neighboring countries.

[madokie]

44. I pretty much stand with what I said

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

Maybe by using the same metric as used to establish Israel in 1948 the American Indians can just run our asses back to where we came from too huh

Watching the antics of nuttiyahoo you can see how they do their business. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what the hell is going on over there.
Without our and a few other countries support Israel could not exist. Don't believe me then try it and lets see.

Anyway I don't have a dog in this fight as I'm not a believer in any religion or higher power so go on about your day believing what you want and I'll proceed on with mine
Have a good day, I hope too

[Violet_Crumble]

45. Actually, it's yr post that's historically inaccurate...

Using yr definition of indigenous, that'd mean that I'm indigenous to England and Ireland. And what about the Palestinians? How are they not indigenous to the region as well? Yr confusing a cultural attachment to a region to being indigenous to a region...

There's one reason why the occupation persists, and that's because Israel wants the territory. That's why they've built settlements throughout the West Bank and have no intention of giving it up. I don't call 'negotiations' where there's continued settlement expansion and where the most contentious issues aren't even on the table to be good faith negotiating on the part of Israel.

The PA negotiates on behalf of the Palestinian people, and I know you've been told this many times, but they support a two state solution based on the 1967 borders. How exactly are the PA unelected dictators? When it comes to the idea of all of Israel and Palestine belonging to one bunch, you really should look no further than the Likud Charter of 1999, which was made a bit more vague only last year. The new one still strongly supports settlements in the West Bank (how does a state emerge with them there?) but the old and longlasting one had this sort of thing in it:

"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud#Charter

If what Israel does to the population of Gaza is them wanting to live in peace with their neighbours, I'm very glad they're not my next door neighbour!

[Mosby]

46. I'm using the standard definition of indigenous

The Jewish tribe has lived in the Levant for 6000 plus years according to their historical records.

Judaism is more than a religion Violet, they are what anthropologists call a "kin group" or "ethno-religious" tradition.

Just curious, do you think Muslims are indigenous to the ME? Why or why not?

Palestinian nationalism emerged about a hundred years ago, some say as a result of Jewish immigration.

There have been no elections in Gaza and the WB since 2007, their "leaders" have cancelled all elections. Abbas, et al are dictators now.

Lastly, Netanyahu supports a two state solution, the Likud charter notwithstanding.

There are no reasons (other than racist ones) why Jews could not live in Palestine, the Zionists accepted everyone into the state of Israel, Muslims, Druze, Bahai, Christians etc. Why should Palestine be any different? Do you think the Palestinian country should be ethnically and religiously pure? if so why?

[Spazito]

20. What a pantload of codswallop n/t

[jberryhill]

26. How did you get codswallop in your pants?

[leveymg]

27. Once it's in there, it's hell to wash out.

Like Bibi and Likud, once the stain has set there's nothing nothing to do but to throw the pants out.

[Spazito]

28. I didn't, I stay far away from codswallop....

it seems the Times of Israel and Mr. Gur have yet to learn that lesson.

[Fumesucker]

29. Bandar: 'God help the Shia'. More than a billion Sunnis have simply had enough of them."

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how-saudi-arabia-helped-isis-take-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html

How far is Saudi Arabia complicit in the Isis takeover of much of northern Iraq, and is it stoking an escalating Sunni-Shia conflict across the Islamic world? Some time before 9/11, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, once the powerful Saudi ambassador in Washington and head of Saudi intelligence until a few months ago, had a revealing and ominous conversation with the head of the British Secret Intelligence Service, MI6, Sir Richard Dearlove. Prince Bandar told him: "The time is not far off in the Middle East, Richard, when it will be literally 'God help the Shia'. More than a billion Sunnis have simply had enough of them."

The fatal moment predicted by Prince Bandar may now have come for many Shia, with Saudi Arabia playing an important role in bringing it about by supporting the anti-Shia jihad in Iraq and Syria. Since the capture of Mosul by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isis) on 10 June, Shia women and children have been killed in villages south of Kirkuk, and Shia air force cadets machine-gunned and buried in mass graves near Tikrit.

[roamer65]

36. It will be WW 3.

I really expect an full-blown Iranian invasion of Iraq and Syria very soon. The powder keg is about ready to blow.

[Aerows]

53. I expect that Iran is going to mop the floor with ISIS

Which is becoming a menace to humanity, in cooperation with everybody else that sees them as a menace.

The US, UN, Russia, China and yes, Iran included. ISIS has become a direct threat.

[Comrade Grumpy]

37. His premise is that the US is "acquiescing" and "miscalculating." The guy is a fucking snake.

And you know what: Go for it, dude! Cozy up to Saudi Arabia and get $3 billion a year from them instead of us.

[Aerows]

42. Israel has an opportunity

to be an oasis of prosperity in the desert. They keep letting people like Netanyahu guide them into constant crisis.

At some point, you have to choose between peace and prosperity, or chaos and retribution.

The latter has never made anything great, except sorrow. Especially with the few natural resources Israel has. They have water resource challenges, land resource challenges, but they are highly resourceful and intelligent people. Taking over your neighbor's farm because you can, though, isn't going to lead to civilization in an area where brains and cooperation can mean the difference between prosperity and poverty.

And I did it. I spoke up about the real spectre.

[Mosby]

47. Iran-Backed Advance In Southern Syria Rattles Israel

As Iran nuclear talks near a deadline, Shiite forces are on the move near the Golan Heights, potentially pitting Iranian forces against those of Israel.

By Nicholas Blanford, Correspondent March 6, 2015

Beirut, Lebanon — The Golan Heights, one of Israel’s quietest frontiers, is showing signs of becoming an active front that could soon bring the forces of arch-enemies Iran and Israel into direct contact for the first time.

For nearly a month, Lebanon’s militant Hezbollah organization and other Shiite forces under Iranian command have been inching their way across a belt of southern Syria in a bid to drive out rebel forces fighting the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, an important Iranian ally.

If the offensive is successful, it could leave Iranian forces and their Shiite allies in control of the Syrian side of the Golan. And from that vantage point, Tehran could gain an additional means of deterrence against Israel in the remaining months before the June 30 deadline for negotiations over Iran’s nuclear program.

“The Iranians through Hezbollah really do wish to complete this encirclement from the north now that they have access to the Golan.… I think that is a key strategic move for them,” says Phillip Smyth, a researcher at the University of Maryland and author of the Hizballah Cavalcade blog, which focuses on Shiite militarism in the Middle East.

Israel is eyeing with increasing concern the Iranian moves on the Golan, which was occupied by the Jewish state in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war. The offensive leaves Israel in a bind and creates the possibility that if it miscalculates in its response, it could ignite a region-wide war.

more...

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2015/0306/Iran-backed-advance-in-southern-Syria-rattles-Israel

[Aerows]

52. I'm pretty sure that the US has said

This is not the war we are looking for, already.

If you want it, go for it. Sacrifice your loved ones and friends in it.

Israel needs to be the frontline with their blood and treasure there. The US will decide on our own if we want to help you if you start a bloody conflict.