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Tue May 1, 2012, 02:49 PM

 

The Real Osama bin Laden Question

Last edited Tue May 1, 2012, 07:16 PM - Edit history (1)

The key question in the debate between Mitt Romney and the Republicans vs. President Obama and the Democrats isn't whether or not a President, any President, would have given the order to proceed in the killing of Osama bin Laden.

The real question is whether or not the President, any President, would have given prior notice to the Pakistani government, and hence it's security forces.

George Bush and Dick Cheney were of the mind that the United States could not enter Pakistan without first notifying them. Many terror experts believed we could never capture or kill bin Laden if we notified Pakistan. Almost everyone knew bin Laden was in Pakistan and was being protected by some of the Pakistani military.

In a 2008 debate the question was posed to then candidate Obama that if he had actionable intelligence that Osama bin Laden was in Pakistan, would he unilaterally take action? Would he bomb a suspected location or take interventionist action to capture or kill the FBI's most wanted enemy of America without asking permission of the Pakistani Government? Candidate Obama said yes, unequivocally yes. If he knew that bin Laden was hiding in Pakistan, he would order the appropriate action to capture or kill him without notifying Pakistan.

Candidate McCain quickly criticized Candidate Obama as reckless and inexperienced. He ridiculed Obama for threatening to "bomb one of our allies".

Here's the real question to Mitt. Do you agree with McCain and Bush? Would you have notified Pakistan, or worse yet, would you have outsourced the bin Laden killing or capture to the Pakistani military?

That's the real question here.

18 replies, 2539 views

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 18 replies Author Time Post
Reply The Real Osama bin Laden Question (Original post)
louis c May 2012 OP
louis c May 2012 #1
louis c May 2012 #2
kentuck May 2012 #3
louis c May 2012 #4
malaise May 2012 #5
msanthrope May 2012 #6
louis c May 2012 #7
nanabugg May 2012 #8
joshcryer May 2012 #16
white_wolf May 2012 #9
louis c May 2012 #10
joshcryer May 2012 #14
joshcryer May 2012 #13
spanone May 2012 #11
joshcryer May 2012 #12
EFerrari May 2012 #15
louis c May 2012 #17
EFerrari May 2012 #18

Response to louis c (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:15 PM

1. Kick

 

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Response to louis c (Reply #1)

Wed May 2, 2012, 07:39 AM

2. Kick in the morning

 

I really thought this post would get some comments. It really destroys the contention of Romney and his advisers that this was an easy choice, "even Jimmy Carter would have made it".

Nearly every Republican so-called foreign affairs expert said telling Pakistan in advance of our entering to kill or capture bin Laden would have been an essential element of any plan if credible intelligence determined that bin Laden was located in Pakistan. Obama publicly disagreed with that notion, and was criticized for it by McCain, Romney and other Republicans.

I think that this argument is the best one that can be made by our side on this subject.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed May 2, 2012, 07:44 AM

3. Good point.

I don't think Bush or Romney would have gone into Pakistan the same way that Obama did. The Bush government was paying Pakistan to help us capture Bin Laden. That worked out real well, didn't it? Romney? He doesn't inspire a lot of confidence with me.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #3)

Wed May 2, 2012, 07:43 PM

4. Thanks

 

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed May 2, 2012, 07:44 PM

5. But Willard Rmoney said Obama was wrong because Pakistan was America's friend

it's on YOuTube.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed May 2, 2012, 07:52 PM

6. An excellent post. Candidate Obama kept his promise. nt

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #6)

Wed May 2, 2012, 09:04 PM

7. thanks for getting it.

 

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Response to louis c (Reply #7)

Wed May 2, 2012, 09:06 PM

8. Oh believe me. They all "get it." They just don't want to admit it. nt

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #6)

Wed May 2, 2012, 11:45 PM

16. Candidate Obama has kept all of his foreign policy promises.

Even when people try to box him in and say he flipped or flopped or he was spoiled goods and we never would've expected him to do those things.

Candidate Obama has also kept a good deal of his financial policy promises.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed May 2, 2012, 09:11 PM

9. This post will not make me popular but here goes...

I don't agree with Obama on this. Do we have the right to violate another nation's sovereignty and hunt down criminals in their borders without their permission? If the leader of the a major drug cartel was hiding in the U.S. and Mexico sent a special forces team into the U.S. to kill him without asking permission, I'm willing to be a lot of people would be angry.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #9)

Wed May 2, 2012, 09:24 PM

10. I understand your concern and your analogy

 

but the number one responsibility of any President is to keep us safe.

Killing bin Laden and bringing him to justice is the President's job.

Just as the Israeli's capture of Nazi war criminals was just, even if they had to do it inside the borders of sovereign nations who chose to hide those criminals.

Sometimes Justice is not so black and white. Often it's messy. But here are the facts. bin Laden was killed without the loss of a single American life and Pakistan was hiding him for at least 5 years.

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Response to louis c (Reply #10)

Wed May 2, 2012, 11:34 PM

14. Justice is selective.

You better believe that if other states could get justice they would do so, they just don't have the capability. Only after Obama got elected did a lot of Latin American war criminals in exile in the United States get the justice that they deserved. The US can and will protect war criminals as long as it wants to. It takes a policy change for us to let them go.

But don't think that other states don't wish they could do it.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #9)

Wed May 2, 2012, 11:33 PM

13. I don't believe in "national sovereignty," to be honest.

I think other states would be well within their rights to capture the Bush criminals.

But that's just me.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed May 2, 2012, 11:28 PM

11. k&r...

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed May 2, 2012, 11:32 PM

12. It is telling that he wa right near a training camp for the Pakistani military.

I have no doubt that you are right, of course, that notifying Pakistan would've resulted in his getting away.

Romney, however, will give whatever answer he cares about, and McCain and Bush just waffle on it already. There was a good Crooks and Liars posting about their waffling. They're liars.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed May 2, 2012, 11:40 PM

15. We don't know if Obama notified Pakistan or not.

We only know what two governments have said in public.

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #15)

Thu May 3, 2012, 07:19 AM

17. Here's what we know

 

Pakistan objected to the American actions without notification.

Bush always notified them.

Bush never caught OBL.

OBL was staying within a mile of the most prestigious of Pakistan's military training facilities (described as the "West Point of Pakistan) for at least 5 years.

Candidate Obama declared in 2008 that if he had actionable intelligence on OBL, he would act without notifying Pakistan.

OBL is dead.

I come to my conclusion by putting these facts together and applying critical thinking.

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Response to louis c (Reply #17)

Thu May 3, 2012, 10:39 AM

18. i understand. However, both governments have political reasons

to take those respective positions in public, Obama that he won't ask Pakistan's permission and Pakistan that they were not notified and so, did not co-operate.

Given that both governments routinely lie to the public about their relationship with each other, there is room for skepticism in my opinion.

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