NO IRISH need apply

[Omaha Steve]

Happy St. Patrick's Day

http://www.workdayminnesota.org/history/03/17




March 17, 1862

Happy St. Patrick’s Day!

Many Irish, forced by religious persecution and economic oppression in their native country, emigrated to the United States in the mid 1800s. On U.S. soil, the new immigrants encountered severe discrimination, such as in employment notices that advertised “No Irish Need Apply.” Many Irish workers turned to the labor movement for support and union membership grew thanks to Irish leadership and determination.

[NOLALady]

1. Back in the day,

they were considered non-white. I've seen early records where they were labeled as POCs.

[smirkymonkey]

2. Really? How could they be considered non-white?

Most of my Irish friends (both native Irish and Irish-American) are some of the whitest, pastiest people I have ever known. They practically glow in the dark.

[pinboy3niner]

3. One word: Freckles :)

When I was a freckle-faced kid, people would tell me, "You've got the map of Ireland written all over your face."

[gollygee]

5. Race is an odd social construct

that isn't even necessarily based on skin color.

[Starry Messenger]

9. Whiteness is a social construct.

Here are some historical examples of racial and ethnic stereotyping of the Irish:

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/06/negative-stereotypes-of-the-irish/



The "Anglo-Saxon" was considered to be the refined and enlightened physical ideal...the Irish were considered a lower form.

Eventually we assimilated though and some even joined in the myth of white superiority, sad to say (I'm looking at you Bill O'Reilly...)

[Gormy Cuss]

10. They were Roman Catholics rather than Protestant.

The English decided they weren't good enough to be white in order to justify the way the Brits treated them. Britain kept them illiterate and penniless to reinforce that notion.

eta: "How the Irish Became White" is a good read.

[pnwmom]

12. When I was in England in the 70's they talked about the "black Irish"

as if they were non-white.

I said something about it and they persisted, asking why I thought they were called "black Irish."

In addition to the Celts, Ireland was settled from the north by Scandinavians, and from the South by Spain and the Moors. So there can be quite a mixture of hair and skin colors there.

I bet some of your pasty white friends might have had black hair. And some of their relatives, like some of mine, might have had olive skin.

[Igel]

25. Not all Irish ae "black Irish."

The term's gotten fuzzier over the years.

Wiki:

"Black Irish is an ambiguous term sometimes used (mainly outside Ireland) as a reference to a dark-haired phenotype appearing in people of Irish origin.[33] However, dark hair in people of Irish descent is common, although darker skin complexions appear less frequently.[34] One popular theory suggests the Black Irish are descendents of survivors of the Spanish Armada, despite research discrediting such claims.[35] In his documentary series Atlantean, Bob Quinn explores an alternative 'Iberian' hypothesis, proposing the existence of an ancient sea-trading route skirting the Atlantic coast from North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula to regions such as Connemara. While preferring the term "The Atlantean Irish", Quinn's reference to certain phenotypical characteristics (within elements of the Irish populace and diaspora) as possible evidence of a previous Hibernian-Iberian (and possibly Berber) admixture mirrors common descriptions of the Black Irish.[36]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people#Black_Irish


Even references to the Irish' status for employment and treatment in the US as "black" often confuses status, race, and other categories that don't fit the same way they used to. (Even "black" has proved an uncomfortable term at times since immigration opened up again to the US in the '60s as the term's come to apply not only to African-Americans but to recent immigrants from various countries, and I've even had problems with some trying to equate the two terms when talking about Africans in Africa and Aborigines from Australia. And let's not even mention the indigenous folk of the Assams.)

[smirkymonkey]

23. Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses!

I still find it baffling, but I guess I get it. Thanks again!

[cwydro]

7. No way.

The Irish are whiter than the English and Welsh (my parents lol).

[cwydro]

24. Link?

[NOLALady]

26. A couple of links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_whiteness_in_the_United_States

https://professorwhatif.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/what-if-youre-not-quite-white/

I discovered this when researching an ancestor of my husband. He was the husband of a fairly wealthy fpoc in the early 1800s. All books that I've read refer to him as a fmoc. But, he states in Church records that he and his parents were born in Ireland. I was confused, as I wasn't aware at that time that Irish were not always "white" in this social construct.

[Binkie The Clown]

4. In the 1940's when I was a kid...

we lived in the "bad" side of town where all the "undesirables" lived. We were pretty much equally shunned, we Irish, the Puerto Ricans, and the blacks. And that wasn't so very long ago in the mid west of the good ole US of A.

[alcibiades_mystery]

6. Myth

http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm

"No Irish Need Apply": A Myth of Victimization.

The fact that Irish vividly "remember" NINA signs is a curious historical puzzle. There are no contemporary or retrospective accounts of a specific sign at a specific location. No particular business enterprise is named as a culprit. No historian, 2 archivist, or museum curator has ever located one 3 ; no photograph or drawing exists. 4 No other ethnic group complained about being singled out by comparable signs. Only Irish Catholics have reported seeing the sign in America—no Protestant, no Jew, no non-Irish Catholic has reported seeing one. This is especially strange since signs were primarily directed toward these others: the signs said that employment was available here and invited Yankees, French-Canadians, Italians and any other non-Irish to come inside and apply. The business literature, both published and unpublished, never mentions NINA or any policy remotely like it. The newspapers and magazines are silent. The courts are silent. There is no record of an angry youth tossing a brick through the window that held such a sign. Have we not discovered all of the signs of an urban legend?

[Nye Bevan]

11. "We DO have actual newspaper want ads for women workers that specifies Irish are not wanted"

from the article that you linked to.

[pnwmom]

13. Even this writer admits that want ads said, "Protestants only."

Irish-Catholics, who were immigrating here in large numbers, correctly understood that this was directed at them.

[pnwmom]

14. Irish and Catholic and Jewish people have also been targets of the KKK.

http://irishecho.com/2011/02/78-years-ago-notre-dame-battles-the-kkk-3/

Seventy-eight years ago this week, on May 17, 1924, hundreds of Notre Dame students gathered at the train station in South Bend, Ind. They were waiting to greet a train, but the mood was anything but festive. For on the train were members of the Ku Klux Klan, heading for a mass Klan rally in South Bend. Their decision to hold the gathering in South Bend was no accident, for Indiana’s Klansmen looked upon Notre Dame as a symbol of rising Catholic power in America. The Klan event was intended to send a signal of intimidation to the university, its faculty and students that they were unwelcome in the American heartland. Instead, the only message delivered that morning came from Notre Dame’s students, who pummeled the Klansmen as they disembarked from their train.

SNIP

Nowhere in America was the Klan stronger and more vocal than in Indiana. According to historian Murray Sperber in his excellent book, “Shake Down the Thunder: The Creation of Notre Dame Football,” about one in three adult white men (approximately 250,000) in Indiana in 1924 were members of the Klan. They were drawn to the Klan’s professions of patriotism and traditional values. Economic factors also played a role, as the American farmer — in contrast to the “roaring” economies of the cities — suffered from falling prices and foreclosures in the 1920s. The Klan helped them identify the sources of their woe — Jewish bankers, Wall Street tycoons, uppity blacks, and the Catholic Church. Not surprisingly, Notre Dame became a favorite target of Klan conspiracy mongers.

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. There were numerous Catholic and others to whom it applied

It also implied against African Americans, though they were largely nominally Protestant. There remains little historical evidence for a virtual article of faith in Irish American culture. The question is not whether such notices existed. It's clear they did not. The question is why this myth is so central to Irish American identity. I say this as - gasp - an Irish American.

[pnwmom]

19. You're not getting it. When the Irish saw signs that said, "Protestants only"

they knew the signs were targeting them, because they were in a huge wave of Irish-Cathlics who had had to leave Ireland after the Protestants there took over and let the native Irish starve.

Imagine how it felt for them to leave the farms their families had lived on for hundreds of years, after being kicked off by Protestant absentee landowners from England, and to end up here, only to find "Protestant only" signs?

(Yes, there were Italian and some other Catholics, too, but the large wave was of Irish Catholics fleeing the famine. The "Protestant only" signs were directed at them, and other Catholics were collateral damage.)

[Starry Messenger]

18. Hmm, his thesis seems to be suggesting that since the Irish fought discrimination,

Last edited Tue Mar 17, 2015, 10:46 PM - Edit history (1)

they were the uncouth bullies. Interesting POV. Well, he's entitled to his opinion, but his paper contradicts his assertion that there were no ads discriminating against the Irish, since he cites them.

"The Protestant (Orange) Irish do not recall "NINA signs." Haha, what a card! A real knee-slapper. I'm sure they don't.

Also:

"55% of those arrested NYC in the 1850?s were Irish-born

35% of the prostitutes arrested in NYC in 1858 were Irish-born.

70% of all admissions to Bellevue Hospital (NYC’s public hospital) in the 1850s were Irish

85% of foreign-born admissions to Bellevue Hospital (NYC’s public hospital) in the 1850s were Irish

63% of foreign-born admissions to the NYC Alms House (Poor House) 1849-1858 were Irish

56% of all prison NYC Prison commitments in 1858 were Irish-born

74% of foreign-born prison NYC Prison commitments in 1858 were Irish-born

70% of persons convicted of disorderly conduct NYC Courts of Special Sessions, 1859, were Irish-born

74% of persons convicted of drunk and disorderly conduct NYC Courts of Special Sessions, 1859, were Irish-born"


http://pando.com/2015/03/17/slaughter-on-eighth-avenue-a-st-patricks-day-commemoration/

Nowadays we attribute these kinds of ethnically-lopsided stats to profiling and discrimination. I don't want to harp on this, since obviously this country has made anti-Black racism into a science and the country has moved on from anti-Irish sentiment, but to assert that there was no real prejudice at the time is wrong.

(PS: I doubt if anyone cares or has read this far down, but apparently the prof moderates an email list called Conservative-Net, and here he puts up a defense for Strom Thurmond. Nice. http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/1163)

[WillyT]

20. Take A Walk Through The Images Here:

Link: http://tinyurl.com/o88wpnu

Plus:

No Irish Need Apply
No Irish Need Apply performed by Alan Lomax, Chet Washington, Odetta Gordon, Pete Seeger, Ronnie Gilbert, Steve Stanne & Tommy Makem.

[hunter]

8. My wife's Irish ancestors were troublemakers.

That's how they ended up in Canada, Chicago, and Mexico.

I had Irish ancestors who were troublemakers too and they fled into America's Wild West, too far away from any churches to attend Mass, to places where it wasn't likely they'd run into anyone who knew them as Catholics, heretics, or political dissidents.

Happy St. Patrick’s Day!

I think the early Irish Catholics were much like the later Native American Catholics, especially in Mexico and the U.S. southwest. The people superimposed their former religions upon Catholicism, and there wasn't much Rome could do about that once the newer "Catholic" traditions were firmly established.

Brigid of Ireland and Our Lady of Guadalupe represented earlier matriarchal religious traditions.

[pinboy3niner]

16. I don't know if my Irish ancestors were troublemakers...

But in case they weren't, I tried to make up for it.

Happy St. Patrick’s Day!

[Omaha Steve]

17. The Irish slave trade began when James II sold 30,000 Irish prisoners as slaves to the New World

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves/31076

They came as slaves; vast human cargo transported on tall British ships bound for the Americas. They were shipped by the hundreds of thousands and included men, women, and even the youngest of children.

Whenever they rebelled or even disobeyed an order, they were punished in the harshest ways. Slave owners would hang their human property by their hands and set their hands or feet on fire as one form of punishment. They were burned alive and had their heads placed on pikes in the marketplace as a warning to other captives.

We don’t really need to go through all of the gory details, do we? We know all too well the atrocities of the African slave trade.

But, are we talking about African slavery? King James II and Charles I also led a continued effort to enslave the Irish. Britain’s famed Oliver Cromwell furthered this practice of dehumanizing one’s next door neighbor.

- See more at: http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves/31076#sthash.hwympijD.dpuf

FULL story at link.

[WillyT]

21. Huge K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[Octafish]

22. Certain ideas do more than money.

"When my great grandfather left here to become a cooper in East Boston, he carried nothing with him except two things: a strong religious faith and a strong desire for liberty. I am glad to say that all of his great-grandchildren have valued that inheritance." -- John F. Kennedy, address in New Ross, Ireland, June 1963.

http://www.jfklibrary.org/JFK/JFK-in-History/John-F-Kennedy-and-Ireland.aspx

[kiva]

27. The Irish were perceived as the black labor of the North.

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Race was a much broader concept in 19th century America - this cartoon is from 1876, so toward the end of Reconstruction. You often see references to 'the Italian race' or people from other countries who were not WASPs.