As an avid baseball fan, I expect to someday see female players and coaches

[CreekDog]

alongside male players and coaches in my lifetime.

and I think the game will be better than ever for it.

[Gormy Cuss]

1. What about PMS? How WILL they muddle through it?

[uppityperson]

3. PMS Avenger. I only work 4 days a month. Is there a problem with that?

[philosslayer]

2. Coaches, maybe. Players, doubtful

Females just don't have the strength and muscle mass to compete with men in a sport like baseball. Its an inconvenient truth, but it is the truth.

Its not a matter of discrimination or segregation. Its a matter of ability.

Case in point.... do you know of any adult female who can throw a 95 mile per hour fastball?

[CreekDog]

4. How fast does he pitch?

With a low-three quarters delivery Romo features three pitches: a slider that sits 75-79 mph which he uses against right handed batters, a two seam fastball sitting 88-90, and a change up which he uses against left handed hitters, sitting 80-83.(source wiki)

Now how many World Series rings does he have?

He has 3.



And if Tim Lincecum can throw 95mph, then some percentage of females will be able to as well.

[LeftyMom]

7. How can women compete with big strapping specimens like that?

Baseball Reference says Timmy's 5'11" and a buck seventy and Romo's 5'10" and 185. Even by the funhouse mirror standards of press guide measurements (the ones that always said Sandoval was barely overweight) those are some tiny dudes. I know quite a few women who are taller, broader and more muscular than either one.

[CreekDog]

9. I completely agree

Someone with the strength of one of the Williams' sisters I'm sure could outpitch many, many male pitchers in baseball now.

All these people say things can't be done. They have no soul, I swear.

We already had a major league pitcher who had just one hand.

These people are always telling us things aren't going to happen. They want to convince us that more people being included is a bad thing.

History will remember them for the dinosaurs they are --if history remembers them at all.

[LeftyMom]

14. In a world where Travis Ishikawa is a postseason hero anything is possible.

[CreekDog]

21. It is possible

Just as hiring Jackie Robinson became a business decision too good to pass up for the Dodgers, someday the same business decision will be too good to pass up in the form of a female player or coach.

And as many people decry it, many more will take notice and it will be the norm in a generation or two after that.

[KamaAina]

107. ROFL!

That was a thing of beauty!

[yuiyoshida]

126. YES INDEED!

It certainly was

[Reter]

92. Ok, so let's mix boxing too

Martha Salazar (perhaps the best female heavyweight boxer in the world) can fight Vitali Klitschko. Just make sure the ambulance is ready after 10 seconds.

With that out of the way, it's not about sexism or being a dinosaur. As a video gamer, I would love to see Chun Li kicking guys asses in a Street Fighter tournament. But it's not gonna happen.

[KamaAina]

109. Maybe not Klitschko

but I'll bet she could take some of those ham-and-eggers who get thrown in there as opponents.

[hifiguy]

112. Or MMA.

Ronda Rousey is a genuine badass, of that there is no doubt. She could have an average man screaming for his mother and begging for mercy in a matter of seconds. But I doubt she'd fare will against a male MMA fighter a weight class or two higher. And they don't have weight classes in baseball.

[AngryAmish]

122. I am a smaller than average man. i struggled to get to welterweight.

I was an amatuer boxer. In the day, Rousey would lose a boxing match to me.

Mma, she would break my arm since I never learned that.

[FrodosPet]

138. What about Ronda Rousey vs Laila Ali?

I had a retired pro wrestler / referee as a math teacher in 8th Grade. Coolest teacher I ever had (and not just because of the wrestlers and football players and civic leaders who would come speak to his classes).

Once, a student asked how he would do in a match against Muhammed Ali. He replied that in a boxing match, Ali would win, but if they went to the mat, "He's mine!".

I suspect it's pretty much the same thing. Toe to toe, pure boxing, Ronda's getting knocked out. Go to the mat and Laila is getting her arm put back in the socket.

[AngryAmish]

139. Exactly right.

[LeftyMom]

117. Boxing has weight classes, genius.

My kid sister is an amateur boxer. Put her up against a similarly sized dude and she'd not only hold her own, she'd almost certainly kick his ass (this is of course how she practices, as the world is not exactly awash in female boxers.) Women have higher pain tolerances and better endurance.

[CreekDog]

120. so many low count posters saying the same thing

imagine that.

[LeftyMom]

121. So many dudes who want to go on about how lady bodies are inferior and terrible.

The same ones who always show up on any thread involving women to talk about how terrible women are and how any issues we might have (health care, pay disparity, sexism in the media or in language or public policy) are totally imaginary. But we're all supposed to not notice any sort of pattern there. Certainly we can't imply that they might have some kind of issues with women, that really hurts their very sensitive feefees.

[Captain Stern]

142. I've read the entire thread, and haven't seen anyone say that.

No one has said that women's bodies are inferior or terrible. People have just pointed out that biologically, male and female bodies are different. Men are bigger, stronger, and faster, than women. Of course, that doesn't mean every man is bigger, or stronger, or faster, than every woman, but it does mean that the best players in sports where size, strength, and speed, are assets are going to be men.

All of our bodies are different. Having a body that is smaller, or weaker, or slower, (regardless of gender) than someone else's doesn't make that body inferior or terrible.

[Reter]

130. Ya ya ya

Post count when you disagree. As if I hate women, and 1,000 posts makes someone a real Democrat. I am a sports addict. Only one female has ever penetrated the four major sports, was Manon Rhéaume in the NHL. I wanted her to be a star, I really did. But she sadly wasn't.

The best bet is tennis. Serena Williams should openly challenge Novak Djokovic. That may not be probable, but at least she has a shot. MMA and boxing are impossible. And for the record I always play Street Fighter II as Chun Li.

[Reter]

129. Err, Martha Salazar is 242 pounds and would be in Klitschko's class, Einstein

Before you throw out insults, do some research. No one ever said your sister can't beat up average guys her weight. Clearly I was talking about professional vs. professional.

[CreekDog]

141. that's Timmy's height including the mound and baseball cap

i think his reported weight also includes the mound.

[nomorenomore08]

60. I'm sure there are female pitchers out there who can match Romo's fastball for speed *and* accuracy.

Hell, let's see Mo'ne Davis's pitch speed once she hits college/minor-league age.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

80. I want women to play, as long as they play for the Giants and the Giants win every World Series for

as long as I live, I will be happy.

Oh,
by the way



FUCK
THE

DODGERS

[LeftyMom]

119. .

[yuiyoshida]

125. wOOT!

Go Giants!!! (sorry, I couldn't contain myself )

[CreekDog]

127. !

[yuiyoshida]

128. Hi Hi!!

You know there are some pretty amazing women in the sport of Kendo.

Fast and Strong.

[LeftyMom]

5. Women with potential get funneled into softball in HS and college.

And that's an entirely different ball and pitching motion.

Put some promising young women through HS baseball programs and either college ball or the minor league system and we'll see. Anyhow even if no woman anywhere can throw 95 (keep in mind most major league pitchers can't either) there could certainly be women who were capable of pitching with lower velocity by emphasizing deception and location, just as any number of successful pitchers do, including former power pitchers who have lost some velocity to the aging process.

But we know women playing actual baseball can successfully strike out big league pitchers. Jackie Mitchell- all of seventeen years old no less- struck out Babe Ruth and Lou Gherig. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-woman-who-maybe-struck-out-babe-ruth-and-lou-gehrig-4759182/?no-ist That was long before the radar gun, but she struck out the best hitters of her day so I'd say her velocity was just fine.

[CreekDog]

8. Barry Zito rarely pitched faster than 80mph

his movement was wicked, when he had control.

and when he did, he outpitched Justin Verlander and got a ring.

[LeftyMom]

11. You left out his offensive prowess.

Bonus: Belt running awkwardly.

[CreekDog]

13. LOL...that's because most successful Giants' pitchers have had to be decent hitters as well

oy.

[LeftyMom]

15. Otherwise you get Cained.

They're not blessed with an excess of run support, but somehow it seems to work.

[catnhatnh]

73. My Hometown Hero Strikes Out Ted Williams...

Years later, Joyce met a man who fished with Williams in the Florida Keys. The man said he had once asked Williams to name the toughest pitcher he ever faced. "And he said, you won't believe this, but it was a girl."

http://espn.go.com/espnw/news/article/6833700/best-ted-williams-ever-faced

[Downwinder]

6. Came across this.

Slowest 2008 FastballsPitcher Average
Fastball Speed
Chad Bradford, Orioles-Rays 79.6
Jamie Moyer, Phillies 81.2
Tom Glavine, Braves 82.1
Livan Hernandez, Twins-Rockies83.7
Greg Maddux, Padres-Dodgers 83.7
Doug Davis, Diamondbacks 84.6
Barry Zito, Giants84.9
Cla Meredith, Padres 85.1
R.A. Dickey, Mariners 85.1
Kenny Rogers, Tigers85.2

http://cyclonefanatic.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44587

[CreekDog]

10. thanks, this is very relevant

I think it disproves that lightning velocity is the key to being a winning pitcher.

But even so, I have no doubt that there are or will be women strong enough and capable enough to pitch alongside men, not only based on technique, but based on speed as well.

[philosslayer]

32. It's not just speed

Its stamina. Go ahead, throw an 80-mph pitch. Now do it 100 times in 2 1/2 hours.

[CreekDog]

34. Most men can't

Most women won't be able to.

But some men will be able to.

And some women will be able to.

[philosslayer]

36. I'm sorry, but men and women are not physically the same

Yes, women can run marathon's almost as fast as men. But they aren't as strong as men. Its just a biological fact.

Can the best woman baseball player be better than the average male. Absolutely.

Can the best woman baseball player compete with the very best baseball players in the world? Highly doubtful.

Your logic is equivalent to saying that someday you'll see a woman be able to compete with the likes of Usain Bolt in the 100 meter dash. Its not going to happen.

[CreekDog]

37. most baseball players can't compete with Usain Bolt in the 100 meter dash

next dumb question?

[philosslayer]

39. Then find a woman who can compete with any major league baseball player

Just one.

[alarimer]

67. They've never had a fucking chance, though.

There was the "League of Their Own" era and that's pretty much it. Stuck in the softball purgatory.

But there's nothing soft about that sport either, really. The current (as of 2012) speed record for women is 77 mph. Coming from 20 feet closer than baseball, I personally would not want to face that.

So fuck your fucking assumptions.

http://monicaabbott.com/monica-abbott-blog-new-speed-record-womens-fastpitch-77mph/

[ProfessorGAC]

69. Why Is Softball Purgatory?

I know it doesn't have a huge national following like MLB, but it's a perfectly good sport that requires a lot of skill, hand-eye coordination, and quickness. (It doesn't REQUIRE speed, but neither does baseball. That's a "nice to have"

[Gormy Cuss]

70. Because you want to play baseball and keep being told that softball is the only option, that's why.

It's not about whether softball is a fine game.

[ProfessorGAC]

83. So There's A Groundswell That You Know Of?

There's an actual movement of young women who'd rather be playing regular baseball? Where did that information come from? How representative is the data?

I think i would have liked to have played lacrosse, except my high school could not have possibly supported a lacrosse team. So, i played basketball and golf. Was i in purgatory? No.

Or, are you perhaps going over the wall with your point?

[CreekDog]

88. There doesn't need to be a groundswell for women to play baseball

if a woman is good enough to play or manage for a team, she should be able to.

i don't care whether 1 person supports the idea or 1 billion people support the idea.

[Major Nikon]

90. Imagine the team that fielded the first woman MLB player

Their ticket sales and TV concessions would skyrocket just from the novelty of it. So what's stopping female players, other than capability? The franchises have a responsibility to field the absolute best team they can within their budget. I don't think they would reject a superior player in favor of an inferior one simply based on whether or not they were born with a penis.

[ProfessorGAC]

102. Again, Nobody Is Saying That

All i asked was why softball is purgatory. Perfectly good game. I didn't say, nor did i see anyone else say, that women SHOULDN'T play baseball if they're good enough. I just wanted to know why softball is purgatory, rather than appreciating it for what it is.

I still don't understand how an alternative sport is purgatory, if there is not a declared mandate that a young woman who's good enough to play major level baseball cannot.

To my knowledge, the mandate doesn't exist.

[ProfessorGAC]

101. That's Fine

Who is saying they can't?

[Gormy Cuss]

99. No, but you are going over the wall trying to make your point.

Not having a lacrosse team at your high school <> being told that people of your gender can't be good at lacrosse so they should go play basketball or golf.

[ProfessorGAC]

100. Nobody Is Saying That Though

That wasn't what the thread is about. You're the only one saying it.

[hifiguy]

113. Velocity isn't everything but there aren't that many Greg Madduxes.

Maddux could knock the wings off a fly with his control, and that is a very rare thing, even among MLB pitchers.

[Major Nikon]

28. Most of those pitchers were on the backside of their career at the time

I'm not sure how many of those would have pitched those speeds at the beginning.

One is a knuckleballer and at least one is a sidearm pitcher.

[we can do it]

111. Nice 18th century thinking.

[linuxman]

12. Players? Probably never. At least not in any significant numbers (more than 1-3)

Genetics are genetics. The men who compete in the sport can do so because they are at the top of their fitness game. They can hit harder, sprint quicker, and pitch faster. There may be some anomalous women out there who have the genetic predisposition to achieve the physical traits which allow them to perform at MLB levels, but the chances that such an anomalous person also pursued a career track into pro baseball over the years would make the chances of one reaching the league slim to none.

The Olympics aren't split by sex to double the medals. They are split because it wouldn't be fair to women otherwise.

I see no reason why they may not one day coach a team, though pro-league coaches generally played in the league at some point in the past.

[CreekDog]

16. dinosaur

the limitation is your thinking.

as soon as you figure out why you can't imagine it happening, you'll realize there is more limitation in your mind than in the female body.

[LeftyMom]

20. The league is trending toward smallball anyhow.

The two teams with the least power made it to the world series, after all.

I swear, it's like the people who swear this is impossible don't know crap about baseball but just have an axe to grind about women and their inferior lady bodies or something.

[CreekDog]

23. that's right

their brains can't comprehend a woman on the battlefield or playing baseball...

that's not a limitation of the female body, it's a self imposed limitation of a brain.

[linuxman]

24. LOL.

Ok, whatever. Women are physically identical to men and can perform any task men can, and do it better in most cases. You win.

The fastest female pitcher in the world (69 mph) was probably holding back.


Can you articulate for me in plain english why a pitcher with a more limited range of speed in regard to pitching is a desirable asset? Is there some pitcher out there who can manipulate physics and cause the ball to turn, double-back, loop the loop, and all sorts of other aerial acrobatics to ensure that the speed of the pitch doesn't undermine its effectiveness?

[CreekDog]

27. men aren't even identical in physical strength to other men

sports has always been played by people off differing physical strengths and weaknesses.

do you think Joe Montana was as strong as the average quarterback?

i don't.

but nobody outdid his career success.

[LeftyMom]

31. God, I wish strength made for better quarterbacks. Kap's got some guns.

He just can't fire them accurately toward alligator arms Crabtree. :/

[CreekDog]

35. Apparently he was down in Phoenix practicing screen passes

He can't throw close passes. Jeez.

Meanwhile Joe Montana won how many Superbowls while the 49ers had a practice facility with only a half size football field in Redwood City that left him unable to practice deep throws?

[LeftyMom]

40. But the good news is they cut JMart today. I heard MUNI already offered him a job

as a turnstile.

[CreekDog]

44. .

[trumad]

64. snarf

[linuxman]

38. Of course they're not.

I never said anything even remotely implying that they are.

You seem to be misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying that you must be some herculean giant to perform at a pro level, however you must be able to at least perform to a general standard set by the people you are competing with and against.

There are no intrinsic qualities in a player which will make up for a make up for certain shortcoming. An exceptionally accurate QB with the inability to pass > 10 yards will find no love in the league. Nor will a blazingly agile player who can't seem to run faster than a brisk jog.

My point is that physical ability still is of great importance. one sex has the biological advantage in that there are far more men who can meet the physical requirements than women. given that the pool of physically able prospects are so much larger for the men, it stands to reason that there is a far greater chance of there being a man in that pool who has the golden combination of power AND skill. Yes, there are strong women out there, but the number of them who possess power and skill of the type seen in pro sports will always be a very small ammount compared to the number of men who already have a leg up due to genetics. When your pool of potential players are already all strong, the only real requirement left is to find the ones with true talent. There are many supremely talented women players out there, but that talent amounts to little if their physical traits aren't enough to make up for the strength and speed disparity with male players.

Do such women exist (the ones who possess that balance of power and skill)? Surely. Sheer numbers guarantees it to be true. The difference is that they are anomalous compared to the number of men who can exceed them. We may see them play in the MLB one day, but they will never number more than a small few, IMO.

[CreekDog]

43. do you have a granddaughter, or know a little girl somewhere who loves baseball and wants to play?

are you gonna tell her she never will be able to?

are you going to try to convince her that your limited thinking limits what her body is capable of?

some very sad people here telling us things will not be possible.

[Downwinder]

47. Granddaughter who has to tone her soccer game down

when playing the boys. They get their feelings hurt.

Girls are doing weight training now.

Look at the Alaskan musher who broke someones arm, arm wrestling.

[linuxman]

49. Why would I tell her she can't play?

Of course she can. She can do anything she is physically able to do. If she can perform to the standard, why would that be any different from a man?


I'd probably tell her:
"Show the talent and ability and any team in the country will snap you up. Baseball is a meritocracy. No capitalist owner is going to limit the success of their franchise by excluding talented players who can bring home championship rings, regardless of sex. Work hard and you may make it. Not many people do, but you may."

I don't tell people sugared lies to spare them, but I don't rule anything out either. I'm realistic like that.

[CreekDog]

51. if that's the case, then why are you arguing that it's impossible here?

sad.

[linuxman]

55. The only thing that's sad is your level of reading comprehension.

Let's play a little game.

If you can show me where I explicitly said that it is impossible for women to play in the MLB, I'll eat my hat and leave this site, never to return and bother you ever again. Scouts honor. Don't worry, I won't demand anything of you if (when) you are unable to prove I said those words (aside from the time you attempted to put them in my mouth).

I said it would be extremely difficult and unlikely. I assume that English is your native language and that you're able to understand the distinction between those adjectives and "impossible".

[philosslayer]

74. No one said its impossible

But lets take sports where men and women both compete:

- Sprinting / running
- Swimming
- weight lifting

Just a few examples. In every case, men perform better. It's fact. I know facts offend you, but they are what they are.

Basketball for instance. There is a WNBA. Same sport (not softball). Do you think any WNBA player could possibly compete with an NBA player? Again, wanting it to be so won't make it so.

And women HAVE tried out for the NBA. Look up Ann Meyers. She was the best of the best in women's basketball at the time. And it wasn't even close.

[Yupster]

134. For some weird reason chess is segregated

There are World Champions and Woman's World Champions, grandmasters and womans grandmasters. Pretty weird when you think about it.

[LeftyMom]

29. Jackie Mitchell struck out Lou Gherig and Babe Ruth. She was seventeen.

We already know that women can strike out big league hitters and we've known it since your grandpa was in short pants.

[Reter]

93. Maybe

Some baseball historians think it's fiction. There's also the possibility that nice guys like Ruth and Gehrig let her strike them out. Before you blast me, aww come on, sounds possible doesn't it?

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-woman-who-maybe-struck-out-babe-ruth-and-lou-gehrig-4759182/?no-ist

[BeanMusical]

57. Lol?

How about this 13 year old girl?

Mo’Ne Davis struck out six batters and allowed just three hits Sunday in leading Philadelphia’s Taney Youth Baseball Association to a berth in the Little League World Series.

But the reason Davis is such a big story coming into this week’s World Series is only partially explained by the batters who keep swinging and missing. The other reason Davis stands out among the crowd of young ballplayers who will descend on Williamsport, Pennsylvania in the next few days?

She’s a girl.

Davis, a 5-foot-4 eighth grader, boasts a 70 mile-per-hour fastball and induced a game-ending double-play to seal her complete game shutout and Taney’s place in Williamsport (you can see highlights of her performance here).



Now imagine (if you can) what she could accomplish given the opportunity.

https://thinkprogress.org/sports/2014/08/11/3469744/meet-the-13-year-old-girl-who-pitched-her-team-to-the-little-league-world-series/

[linuxman]

59. I know of her, yes.

She is very good. She is also anomalous. She may be one of the few to make it to the MLB one day if her skills increase even further. Maybe not. If she's throwing 70 MPH fastballs, then she has beaten the previous world record, which is pretty impressive for a 13 year-old.

None of that is in conflict with what I have said already.

[hifiguy]

115. She should get every opportunity go go as far as she can

and in baseball.

[nomorenomore08]

61. Why should averages dictate exceptional cases?

"Ok, whatever. Women are physically identical to men and can perform any task men can, and do it better in most cases. You win."

Nobody said that, but there are always outliers. Think of Brittney Griner, who's almost a foot taller than the average *man*, and whose wingspan compares favorably to many NBA big men (e.g. Andrew Bynum).

"Is there some pitcher out there who can manipulate physics and cause the ball to turn, double-back, loop the loop, and all sorts of other aerial acrobatics to ensure that the speed of the pitch doesn't undermine its effectiveness?"

Not quite. But if speed is all that matters, then why have there been so many successful knuckleballers - including Hall of Famer Phil Niekro who pitched until he was 48(!)?

[Yupster]

133. Perhaps a knuckleballer though

I could see a woman knuckleball pitcher. American leaguer wouldn't have to bat.

[LeftyMom]

17. Women managed in the negro leagues, so that's already happened. nt

[geek tragedy]

18. I think the match ups we've seen in tennis

show this to be severely unlikely.

Yes, Billie Jean King humiliated an old-timer like Bobby Riggs.

But between professionals of roughly the same age, it's been clear what the gap is.

A third "Battle of the Sexes" match, entitled Battle of Champions, was played at Caesars Palace in Paradise, Nevada, in September 25, 1992, between Jimmy Connors and Martina Navratilova, aged 40 and 35 respectively. Navratilova had previously turned down invitations to take on John McEnroe and Ilie Năstase, as she considered them undignified.[13] The promoters initially tried to match Connors with the then top ranked female player, Monica Seles. Connors called the match 'war'. Navratilova, on the other hand, called it a battle of egos.[16]

The match was played under hybrid rules to make it more competitive; Connors was allowed only one serve per point, and Navratilova was allowed to hit into half the doubles court. Each player received a $650,000 guarantee, with a further $500,000 for the winner.[17] Connors won 7–5, 6–2.[18] Navratilova made 8 double faults and 36 unforced errors. Connors, too, was nervous and there was a rumor that he had placed a bet on himself to win at 4:1.[19]

Endurance sports I can see, but where it involves fast-twitch, explosive muscle release, nope.

But, part of civilization means we are judged for our minds and morals, not our muscle power.

[Downwinder]

33. Babe Didrikson Zaharias made the cut in PGA events.

[catnhatnh]

77. I already posted of a local lady who struck out Ted Williams...

Her name is Joan Joyce who is in the Guiness book of records-she also played on the LPGA and holds the record for men or women for least putts in a round of golf at 17!

[geek tragedy]

94. Golf is a game that is more skills-oriented than athelticism-oriented

And that was many decades ago--in modern times, the best woman golfer can't make the cut at men's PGA tournaments.

The ability to throw a baseball hard, or to generate bat speed, are driven largely by muscle power.

Similarly, with vertical leaping capability in basketball:

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/explainer/2012/03/brittney_griner_dunk_why_are_there_so_few_jams_in_women_s_basketball_.html

gender gap in vertical leaping ability is also substantial. The average female college basketball player has a vertical leap of approximately 19 inches, compared with more than 28 inches for the average male player. Since you have to get your fingers about 6 inches above the rim to have a chance at dunking, a female player of average leaping ability would have to be around 6-foot-6 with a standing reach of 8-foot-11”—the approximate measurements for Michael Jordan.

[Downwinder]

105. Rhode Lee Michelson could jump as high as any male in her class.

We will never know what could have been as she was in the Sabena crash in Brussels.

[catnhatnh]

110. Her golf record for least putts was in 1982...

in the LPGA Lady Michelob Tournament. That ain't "many decades ago"...

[geek tragedy]

114. Putting is one aspect where women should be every bit as

good, if not better. It's the distance where the difference occurs.

[cherokeeprogressive]

19. Girls are playing in the Little League World Series. It's only a matter of time.

It's a game that has to attract fans though in order to survive and until girls/women get to the point of matching the offensive output of the boys/men it's a tall expectation to see them on the professional field.

Personally, I think it would be cool as shit to see a female player gun down some guy at the plate from center field or throw out a base runner stealing second from behind the plate.

But it's the offense that makes the game exciting as well. Owners and managers in MLB want home runs, triples, and RBIs starting in Little League, and with consistency. What's the percentage of boys whose game is good enough for the Majors? Less than one percent?

[philosslayer]

41. Yes, against 12 year old boys

12 year old boys and 12 year old girls physically aren't that different.

There is a big difference between the average 18 year old boy and 18 year old girl.

[LeftyMom]

50. Yes. And baseball accomodates wildly different body types.

Yet we see players who are no bigger than an average sized woman succeed alongside players who are a foot taller than they are and built like linebackers.

It's not football or basketball where size can compensate for a lack of skill, but even in those sports smaller players with excellent skills succeed. The size disparity between the average man and the average woman is much less dramatic than the disparity between the average NBA player and Steph Curry, but he's about to be the league MVP because his skills exquisite. And as much as it pains me to give fucking Seattle any credit, Russel Wilson is a small fry who's done okay for himself in football.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

87. Possibly the best post of this thread.

[Jamaal510]

22. Maybe if that happens,

then Humboldt State will ditch the rule in their intramural softball program where male players have to use wooden bats and hit bigger balls than female players.

[Jenoch]

25. So far, the closest a female has been to

getting to MLB is Ila Borders. She was a pitcher in the Northern League in Minnesota several years ago. As I recall, she was not too successful and was more of a novelty to get people to the games.

The Northern Leage is still operating but is not even remotely as good as Class A.

If a female were even to be good enough to be even considered to get even a tryout in spring training or some sort of open tryout, she would have to be a pitcher. There is no way any female will ever have enough upper body strength to get the bat speed needed to hit major league pitching.

[CreekDog]

30. Jim Abbott had one hand and was quite successful

they will be able to play, they will be able to play different positions and they will be able to coach.

when you say it can never be done, it will be done.

it will happen.

just because you can't conceive of it, your thinking does not limit what is possible, it only limits what you think it possible.

[philosslayer]

42. So what if he had one hand?

He was a pitcher. You only need one to pitch.

[CreekDog]

45. well then there are plenty of women with one or more hands

sounds like you're convinced then. my work is done.

[philosslayer]

46. Believe what you want

Believing it won't make it so. Like I said... basic biology. Is there a female freak of nature out there who can compete with the best ball players in the world? Maybe. Who knows. But I'd place a pretty substantial wager that in the next 25 years you won't at any point see a woman on a major league roster.

[CreekDog]

48. No, my believing won't make it so, women will make it so

the point is not that my believing can make it so.

but my NOT believing can't stop it from happening. and neither can yours.

i choose to believe, based on evidence but also based on hope.

you wrongly think and are grasping at straws to prove that your self imposed limitations of thinking have any power over reality.

only your reality.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

63. the fastest softball pitch ever thrown was 77MPH

and if you compare/adjust for the 60'6" distance of the baseball mound that would be equivalent of 107MPH. However, the fastest baseball pitch on record (in a game) was 101MPH by Nolan Ryan. If we were to adjust that to the mound distance for softball, it would have been equivalent to 141MPH. (the fastest baseball style pitch by a female was 69MPH)

The problem is the BEST female athletes in the game are not really comparable to the best male athletes. There are those that say, "Well, she (generic she) just has to be better than the worst pro ball player..." and while that may be true, there simply aren't any candidates out there. Not now, and not in the foreseeable future.

If GM's thougth that a female was the best talent at a position, she would be in the game... baseball is about money. The novelty alone would generate HUGE dollars.

sP

[Yupster]

136. Pete Gray was a one armed outfielder

He played for the St Louis Browns in 1945 when most players were drafted.

He did okay until it was discovered he couldn't hit breaking pitches because he didn't have the second hand to guide the bat. He only hit about .210 without any power.

[Jenoch]

52. The limits of the human body, specifically the

female human body, makes your predicton about a female MLB player extraordinarily unlikely. That's not a sexist statement, but it is realistic.

Abbot was a pitcher. He put the glove on his hand right after he released the ball. Comparing him to the possibility of a female MLB player is ridiculous.

It is much more likely that a one-haned male position player makes it to the big leagues using a 'bionic' hand than a woman playing.

[CreekDog]

54. the physical requirements of baseball don't disqualify women on the basis of their gender

you can say it all you want and you were probably arguing the same thing about women in combat and heaven knows what else, but it doesn't make it so.

[Jenoch]

56. Don't you dare assume anything about me.

Your assumption is insulting.

Look at how many male baseball players who fail to make it to the big leagues. You seem to believe that some sort of superwoman is going to come along and do what tbousands of men fail to do evry spring. If you're so confident, why has a female not made it to the big leagues already?

[philosslayer]

72. The person you are replying to...

Seems to equate acceptance of physical and biological limitations to discrimination. Its the old "I want it to be true, therefore it SHOULD be true."

[CreekDog]

82. i didn't call it discrimination

[Yupster]

137. You don't think maybe a knuckle ball pitcher

some day?

[Jenoch]

143. I did say that the only way I thought it MIGHT

happen would be a pitcher in the AL.

The problem with the knuckleball is that it does funky stuff to the arm. There have not been too many successful knuckleball pitchers in MLB.

[LeftyMom]

26. We already see people with wildly different body types find niches in baseball.

In the WBC we even saw whole teams of people with very different body types (the height and musculature disparity in the Mexico v. Canada matchup was striking) compete by finding a style that works for their bodies and focusing on what they can do well.

[jmowreader]

53. First thing you need to do is convert softball programs to baseball programs

Colleges would be VERY appreciative of this; it would be cheaper to maintain one competition field for both men and women, than to maintain both a baseball field for men and a softball field for women.

[Ex Lurker]

58. You're more likely to see it in endurance events, in my view

particularly ultramarathons and extremely long distance swimming. Physiology makes women more suited to compete in those events on an equal basis with men, and perhaps, surpass them. Events that require upper body strength and/or short bursts of speed, not so much. At least not until genetic engineering becomes commonplace, which is coming faster than most people realize.

[Oktober]

62. Coaches maybe...

Players no...

That's like saying you expect to see women in the NBA...

Take the worst team in the NBA and put them against the best team in WNBA and the NBA team will blow them out of the water...

Might as well be two different sports...

[bigwillq]

81. Yup.

Men and women train pretty much the same in basketball, but there would be very few women that would be successful in the NBA, imo, even the superstars of the WNBA.

For the most part, men are just taller, bigger, stronger, faster, and this gives them an edge against most women.

I would rather see the leagues be separate, where women have their own league and men have their own. But, again, just my personal preference.

[Oktober]

84. There's no market for it...

... and I don't see one popping up in the future either.

[trumad]

65. Let the resident so-called DU sports expert chime in.

Last edited Fri Mar 27, 2015, 08:46 AM - Edit history (4)

My motto with something like this...

Never say Never.

Woman are quickly evolving and are doing things today that they never have before. Think Rhonda Rousey, Kacy Cantzaro, etc...

I love it personally...and for those who say no way never....well I question their sports acumen and know that haven't been paying attention.

Evolution Baby!

[Calista241]

66. I think it'll be tough, but not impossible

A couple years ago, Annika Sorenstam tried to play against men on the PGA tour. Sorenstam, at the time, was probably the most dominant female on the LPGA tour. She'd won several Player of the Year awards, and won most of the important majors and other tournaments on the Ladies tour. She won an ESPY for Best Female Athlete from ESPN.

This was golf, a game where technique is important and brute strength less so. In general, the men's tees are about 1000 yards longer than the women's tees on the same course, and this fact is probably what keeps women from competing on the PGA tour. The course has to be long so the players don't drive the green on PAR 4's and birdie every par 4 on the course, and eagle every par 5.

During the one Men's event she competed in, at the height of her career in 2003, she didn't make the cut halfway through the event. She finished 96th out of 111 players to compete at the event.

[alarimer]

68. I'd settle for another league.

Without all the sexist bullshit of the "League of Their Own" era.

[Captain Stern]

71. Coaching I can easily see. Playing is going to be a lot harder.

As things stand, I don't think a female player has any chance at all of making it in MLB on the strength of being a hitter or traditional pitcher. Down the road, sports medicine and science may change that, but it won't be real soon.

I think the best shot, and still a very long one, that a female has at making it to the majors is as a knuckleballer. Not only is super velocity not necessary for a good knuckleball, it's actually detrimental. And

[Baclava]

76. In the entire history of baseball there have only been a handful of knuckleballers to make the bigs

That would probably be an even bigger longshot. First you'd have to make it through the years of drudgery in the minor league system. Nobody just shows up and starts throwing in the majors.

It would have to be a very unique talent and I don't see it happening.

[Captain Stern]

86. Agreed, to some extent.

I think the chance of a female knuckleballer making it to the majors is better than as a hitter, or traditional pitcher, but definitely not by much. Heck, it's a longshot for really good high school and college players, period. Only about 15% of the players drafted each year by MLB ever make the majors. Only about two thirds of the top high school and college players that are taken in MLB's first two rounds of the draft even make it.....and that usually takes four or five years.

The only way that the participation of female players in MLB baseball will become a common thing is that if sports science can come up with something that can dramatically improve the strength and speed of female players. The catch is, that whatever they come up with will have to be ineffective (or at least far less effective) on men.....or they'd also become faster and stronger.

We'll be able to tell when mass female participation in the majors is on the horizon. When we see that a significant portion of the very best high school players in the nation are female, then we'll know that the time is about five years away.

[dr.strangelove]

75. I am not sure players will happen in my lifetime, but I would enjoy it

I think its one of those boys clubs where the men will keep it that way. Its not just having the rare physical gifts, its also breaking the steel floor holding them down.

I think there are women with the skill necessary to umpire and coach right now, but they are kept out. I suspect the umpires will be the first to change, as we have had a couple over the years do special events and spring games. Plus there are several at the next level down rated very well.

Kim Ng was the first head executive, she is with the Dodgers. But for every Kin Ng, there are dozens of Leigh Castergines, who have to deal with disgusting acts of discrimination in this boy club.

It will take breaking this view to accomplish true equality.

Now the physics of muscle mass and body type will probably limit the number of females who have the necessary skills to compete, but there are most certainly women who physically can do it. Its just that many of them leave baseball in their early years when softball is pushed as the girls alternative. So they do not get the training necessary to compete. One day, but I think it will take a lot of changing, both at the youth sports level and in the boys club itself.

But if a woman makes a team, I will proudly buy her jersey and support her as best I can as a fan of the game. I think you raised a good topic and have made a lot of people think about this. Good job.

[bigwillq]

78. I think if women trained from an early age

in baseball as men do, there could be some successful female MLB players.

But I would rather see an WMLB then women playing in MLB, but that's just a personal preference.

My Dad would rather watch women's basketball over men's basketball, where I just think women's basketball isn't very good overall.

That being said, I would rather watch women's tennis over men's tennis, and the Softball College World Series over the Baseball College World Series so, again, I think it's a matter of personal preference.

[catnhatnh]

79. I think Joan Joyce could have played...

Softball[edit]
As a player[edit]
Joyce played for the Brakettes from 1954–1963, the Lionettes from 1964-1966, and again the Brakettes from 1967–1975, In her career, she racked up many of the sports' records, which have yet to be broken:

Most consecutive all-star team selections (18)
Eight-time MVP in the National Tournament (1961, 1963, 1968, 1971 (co-MVP), 1973, 1974, and 1975)
Most victories in a season (42) (in 1974)
Two no-hit, no-run games in National Tournament (four times)
Shutouts in a season (38 in 1974)
Most innings pitched in a game (29 in 1968 against Perkasie)
Career doubles (153)
Doubles in a season (22 in 1968)
Career triples (67)
Brakettes team batting champion (1960, 1962, 1967–69, 1973)
Highest batting average (.467 in 1971)
Her pitches were extremely fast at over 70 miles per hour. She pitched 150 no-hitters and 50 perfect games, with a lifetime earned run average of 0.09. In her record-setting 42-win season, she pitched 38 shutouts. Her 1974 Brakettes team was the first American team to win the world championship.[2]

In exhibition games, she struck out Ted Williams at Municipal Stadium in Waterbury, Connecticut in 1961 (also during a brief stint in 1966) and Hank Aaron in 1978.[1]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Joyce

[ProdigalJunkMail]

96. see post #63 n/t

[Dreamer Tatum]

85. Coaches probably, players almost certainly not.

For the overwhelming part, women lack the physical characteristics required to play professional baseball on a standard diamond.

When Joyce struck out Williams, she was 40 feet away. I can strike a major leaguer out from 40 feet away. If a woman could throw a major league pitch for strikes consistently from 60 feet, 6 inches, there'd have been one by now.

[The2ndWheel]

89. Maybe a late game defensive replacement or pinch runner

An everyday player or pitcher? Possible, but unlikely. Coaches, GM's? Sure.

[Reter]

91. If a female is talented enough to produce on a ML level, she will make the team

It's not a discrimination case, sports is just rough to mix sexes. As for the couches or managers, baseball likes to hire insiders (former players), so that's a tough one too.

[anotojefiremnesuka]

95. If you think you can play in the major leagues

Go to a batting cage and see how many baseballs you can hit that are pitched at 80+ mph

If you can't hit at over 50% you are not mlb caliber

Take your daughters and sons to the cage see they got what it takes

[ProdigalJunkMail]

97. that isn't a good indicator at all

a pitching machine can never come close to the delivery or the variation from a major league pitcher. someone may look like a champ against a pitching machine and the fall all over themselves against a real pitcher. that is why no scouts ever watch some kid in a batting cage...

sP

[anotojefiremnesuka]

98. The point being the vast majority of people have no clie

As to what it really takes if one can't even hit balls on a machine you'd wasting everyone's time

If you can throw a ball over 80 mph in HS and actually get a minor league offer they will work you till you are hurt to see if you can recover and still pitch just as fast

Talk to some folks who were in the minors and how hard it is even if you have some talent. I have 2 friends that were minor league pitchers, the got signing bonuses and everything. they were worked till they were broken

If they knew the truth as to what really would happen they would not have played pro ball. Both have arm, back and shoulder problems and will for life.

[CreekDog]

124. You spelled "clue" wrong while attempting to say that most people don't have one

the irony is that your message actually doesn't contain a clue in the literal or figurative sense.

[Reter]

131. It was a typo, not a spelling error

Typos are much more forgiving.

[Snow Leopard]

103. always thought that

it would happen at some point, and in some other sports too, but I fail to see why it would make the game 'better'

[LynneSin]

104. I think there are some sports where women might be able to complete with men but this isn't one

Mo'ne Davis was able to complete in the Little League World Series because this was a competition for children under the age of 13 - a time when children really haven't started developing traits typical of men and/or women. In five years she might still be able to pitch 70mph fastballs but she might be up against people doing 90mph fastballs which would be way more impressive.

The only way I could ever see her competiting is if she used performance enhancing drug and isn't that what got so many players like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemons in trouble in the first place?

However I always thought there could be other ways or other sports that could make things competitive but in the end there is a difference between men and women physically. I know we women want equal pay for equal work but there is some work I know we are not capable of doing. I'm not that foolish. But I'm not looking to compete with lugging concrete blocks here!

[KamaAina]

106. Now batting for the Phillies, the pitcher, number 13, Mo'ne Davis!

[SomethingFishy]

108. Baseball is a brilliant, fun and enjoyable way to spend an afternoon... totally ruined

by parents, coaches and money.

[Blue_Tires]

116. I thought they had softball for that?

[ileus]

118. Female coaches maybe...

Players I'm not so sure about, eventually we're going to need to admit there is an actual physical glass ceiling in stick and ball sports. The past 8 years of active coaching and league play have witnessed it first hand.

My daughter is 12, about to start her 4th Softball season on top of 2 baseball seasons. She can't hit or throw half the distance my 10yo son. I'm her pitching coach and an assistant coach for my neighbors team (her first year coaching) it's going to be a great year with "my" girls team.

I've watched many College softball and baseball game live in the stands and there's no comparison between the two games or physical capabilities. Pro baseball players are just amazing to watch, everything moves in double time.

Ever wonder why there's no females riding in the TDF?

[Inkfreak]

123. Ya never know...

Frankly, I'm amazed anyone can hit a curve. It ended my dreams of a long baseball career. I found golf much more suitable after fanning air time and again.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

132. Slightly off topic but, I decided to change my avatar because of this OP.

I was raised in a Baseball Family. Dad pitched in the minors, way back when, for the Braves farm team. My brother coaches high school baseball and we all played softball for the various leagues in the surrounding counties.

One day women will be playing pro baseball. I know it just as sure as I am sitting here.

[CreekDog]

140. :)