General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFor everyone who opposes bringing a weapon to school for self-defense
This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by seabeyond (a host of the General Discussion forum).
what solution do you have?
Ignoring a bully never works. Edited to add: ESPECIALLY when you are confronted with a GROUP of them.
Letting them just keep beating on you usually ends in suicides or a lifetime of trauma.
Whatcha got for a solution, if self-defense is not acceptable?
Really... whatcha got?
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Prometheus Bound
(3,489 posts)
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Either the bullies or the school can make that threat easily enough. Something actually happening to the bullies needs to be pretty certain before a lot of victims will feel comfortable sticking their neck out like that.
(I'm also not even getting into, say, the parents objecting to their kid going to the police.)
Prometheus Bound
(3,489 posts)What if one or more of the bullies does the same the next day. That could have an even worse result than reporting it to the police.
sakabatou
(42,747 posts)I would definitely apply self-defense. When I have children, I'd give them the go-ahead to use it if they were bullied.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)how does bring a weapon to school improve the situation?
In the very short term, perhaps, in the long term does it not likely lead to escalation and a greater potential harm to a greater number of people?
TheKentuckian
(25,661 posts)Bullies aren't looking for a fight, they are looking to dominate someone. Escalation does not ensure dominance, it often makes it impossible.
The only way to effectively deal with a bully is to refuse to be their target without exacting a high toll, if there is a price to be paid the game ends.
flor-de-jasmim
(2,151 posts)TedBronson
(52 posts)... who is being picked on coming out as the loser in the administrative aftermath.
However,this doesn't mean that the child shouldn't fight back.
a) Attitude goes a long way
b) There are things that hurt and are in a school that don't fall under the category of "weapons"
c) The human body has some seriously tender bits on it and a little training and willingness to take a hit and give one back will make the difference.
Diclotican
(5,095 posts)Zalatix
I have been bullied from 1 grade, true 9 grade - and have scars that will never really heal - even after many years out of school.. Have still not been on any of the re-unions, as I am a grown man, who don't want to go back to where most of my youths pain was...
But I never completated the idea of taking a gun to my school.. Even for self-defence... But then again, I was seldom fyciall attacked by my peers - it was rather other ways to bully me who was the norm... And the few times it got "hot" I managed well in fights...
Self-defense is sometimes the only way to go - but taking a gun to a fight is never really a smart move - if you do not expect to use it, you better not take the gun with you...
Diclotican
Joseph8th
(228 posts)And no, I'm no pacifist. I was just defending the practice of "being the bigger bully" as an (if not THE) effective means of dealing with real bullies on this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=26033
Weapons in school just escalate the level of violence that's already occurring and going to occur. Instead of bruises, stab wounds or bullet holes. It's a coward's solution -- just as guns are COWARDS weapon of choice. You can't be bothered to learn how to defend yourself. It's lazy and fucked up to pull the trigger on another person for bullying or intimidating you.
I don't care if it's a group of bullies. Learn some martial arts. Don't be a coward, but don't be a victim, either. You don't need to kick all their asses, just one or two. You don't need a weapon to do it -- it could just be taken away, anyway, ESPECIALLY in a group where you can't see or be everywhere. Practice fighting groups. You'd be surprised how easy it is to kick more than one person's ass at the same time.
But don't give me any of this weapons bullshit. You're wrong. Completely wrong.
Edited to add: In Kung Fu, it's called "showing your opponent mercy" to quickly, effectively disable them. Don't play with your prey, or you're just like them. Show them immediately that the cost in pain is going to be too high to continue the fight. Don't drag it out, circling and throwing punches or rolling around in the ultimate fight club crap. Go for weak points, neck, solar plexus, balls, knee caps, and try to keep both a sense of humor and a sense of perspective while you take your opponents apart. Feel free to taunt them. Breaking a finger works pretty well to permanently solve a bully problem. But 30 seconds without air thanks to a well placed jab to the throat will also give you time to get out of the situation, while making a memorable impression. Throws are great because they're dramatic and put your opponent at a distance. Drops and rolls are great because they're very fast, low profile, and can be converted into upward momentum, or powerful leg sweeps, and American fighters never see them coming (being essentially defensive, following the principle of 'not being where you're opponent's fist is'. Large opponents can't get up quickly, but don't let them get on top of you. That's about their only move. Large opponents are the biggest problem because in order to 'show mercy', you have to hurt them pretty bad, because once they get ahold of you, the fight is over, and you just lost in a painful way. Either take out a knee cap with a downward stop, balls, or a step-through throw (Aikido style, step forward on one side while pushing upward on their chin -- gravity will send the back of their head into the ground). The idea is to end the fight quickly, and with a large opponent, that takes more force. So that's what ** I ** got. What'choo got? Because I could take your knife away. And I would be pretty mad about having to do that.
TedBronson
(52 posts)Classy...
Joseph8th
(228 posts)... because the reputation of guns is so much more important than sane gun control legislation.
Guns for hunting are one thing (a lazy thing for trophy-hunters, but there it is). Guns in war are another thing (a fucked up thing that profits the masters of war, but there it is). Guns on cop belts are yet another thing (also arguably lazy and fucked up, cf. Britain, but there it is).
Guns for self-defense are for cowards, idiots or assholes.
Now that's a gun smear.
BiggJawn
(23,051 posts)You've watched too many Kung Fu movies.
Fat, middle-aged me ain't throwing anyone anywhere.
JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)Escalation of violence in an educational environment strikes me as a particularly bad idea.
Exposing the Bullies in question should be first and foremost goal, loudly, publicly, without fear or shame. With understanding and empathy for the aggressor. If it means taking a beating for it on the spot, then so be it. If it means they sneak up on you after the fact, that's a police report away from an arrest in many instances. Carry a cellphone with a video camera (and the recording to be stored on an SD card) at the ready in situations where bullying might take place, and have it ready in a moments notice.
Escalation can mean a certain end to the short term issue, and breeds only much LONGER term issues in its wake.
jp11
(2,104 posts)Solutions, solicit help from others being bullied, solicit help from friends, solicit help from faculty that actually care, or maybe go to the police with your parent?
Why can't you kick someone in the groin?
Why can't you run away?
Why can't you get a group of friends to help you, escort you, be witnesses, etc.
Why can't you punch someone in the eye?
Why is it the ONLY thing you consider 'self-defense' involves a weapon?
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Since you are so fired up about arming every school kid, let's put you in a middle school setting, with lots of armed kids, teaching a class, and see if you come through the day alive and unhurt, without having witnessed some kid shooting another kid or adult.
Arming kids, children whose brains are still developing, whose impulse control is weak, is insane. I guarantee you that lots of kids and adults would die, and virtually every single teacher would leave the profession immediately.
You want a solution? Start spending money on our schools. Provide security officers and security measures if necessary. Throw in some school counselors as well. Provide other outlets for student hostility. Oh, and provide the money to afford school meals that aren't processed food, but real food. You take these steps and you will find that incidents of bullying and violence go way down.
Arming kids is an idiotic idea, but apparently there are not only devotees of it on the right, but on the left as well. Sad.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)Exactly - lets start spending some money on schools. All school districts need additional security officers - as well as additional funding to improve educational achievement. The RW-approach of reducing school budgets just to win their war against the unions is sending this nation into a tail-spin. Greed is winning.
This whole idea that one cannot venture out without a gun is crazy - guns in churches, guns in parks, guns in bars, guns in schools. Who is the bully here?
"Don't you dare mess with me - I'm packin'". What a ridiculous solution.
groundloop
(11,960 posts)We don't know the particulars of the situation which started this discussion, but I'd bet that some counseling is called for. Many people, kids especially, take a bad situation and internally magnify it until it seems hopeless. (I have some first hand experience with this, a family member started using drugs as an escape.)
Also, what happens when that weaponized kid actually uses it? Now you've got a far far worse situation, with the victim now being the one who's going to spend years in jail.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)At least learn to defend yourself and fight with (potentially) non-lethal means.
Other possible options in order of escalation
Leave the scene
Alert the authorities - no matter what the threat is
Pepper spray or something stronger if available in your state.
Self defense (mma)
Club, knife or Firearm
As to the appropriateness of arming a school full of kids under 18 with a firearm, I'd say it's crazy.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)If violence is a problem, more violence is not a solution. Such situations only arise when TPTB ignore the problems, offer no support to the victims and refuse to punish offenders.
Though, there are people who have taken your advice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chardon_High_School_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Weise#The_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westside_Middle_School_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westside_Middle_School_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipland_Kinkel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olean_High_School_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Andrew_Williams
lamp_shade
(15,035 posts)
BiggJawn
(23,051 posts)And NO state in the Union allows concealed carry by minors, this is an exercise in sensationalism.
Iggo
(48,062 posts)
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)Yeah, I think that was one of Dr. King's tenets. 
cali
(114,904 posts)I'd make damn sure that those doing the beating were expelled and I'd keep my kid out of school if his life were in danger. I'd involve the school, the district, the police and the legal system. I sure as fuck wouldn't send him off to school with a weapon. that's just incredibly stupid.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)It was a stun gun and the kid didn't actually stun anyone with it. He only used it to get a gang of 6 bullies to stop beating the crap out of him. That is nowhere near the same as a gun. Stun guns hurt a few seconds, then it's done, no lasting damage. In this case, the kid only held the stun gun in the air and did not actually use it ON anybody, anyhow.
Geez, mention self-defense on DU and people automatically go to wild west memes and thoughts of roving armies of kids with machine guns gunning down their teachers. Ridiculous.
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)I have beat many bullies in my day, BUT, you get permission to beat the hell outta any bully that threatens you, by your parents. Then, before you beat their ass, go to admin and put them on NOTICE. Call them cowards. Tell them that you WILL protect yourself, and since they have been warned, you intend on suing their ass, if they come down on you before dealing with the bully/es. I have massively ridiculed many authorities in school. Telling them EXACTly what I thought of them. YOU MUST DO THIS, as they are lazy fucks, and have implimented zero tolerance. That means, the kid bullied most of the time is blamed. And punished.
I have informed teachers, that I WILL leave fifteen minutes early EVERY DAY, when I had to endure hearing how I would be harmed by packs of bullies, IN THE CLASSROOM.
The key is: get in the admins faces. Show NO FEAR. Get the parent to also threaten large lawsuit. Document all warnings to admins. Make sure you tell them that you will start a media campaign, with all your documentation, if they loaf. That it will take far more of their time and trouble, if they dont follow your orders.
HopeHoops
(47,675 posts)I don't recall a single incident where a knife was drawn for a fight. We used fists. Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you, but that's how we settled things and even if you lost you gained respect for standing up for yourself. Using weapons was considered cowardly. That's not why we carried them - KNIVES ARE USEFUL TOOLS! I always have a flip-open knife in my pocket for that reason, generally one that only takes one hand to open.
My wife and three daughters are all black belts (wife 3rd degree, daughters all 2nd). They know how to disarm someone with a weapon, including handguns. That aside, self-confidence is often the most powerful weapon you can have. It makes the aggressor have second thoughts. The best way to win a fight is to prevent it and not showing fear usually accomplishes that. I've lost track of how many "beer muscle" incidents I've had at bars and none of them resulted in an actual fight. I don't approve of guns in school, but confiscating nail clippers because of "zero tolerance" is beyond ridiculous.
And even if you do have a weapon, drawing it first makes you at fault in the eyes of authorities and while it might diffuse the situation at hand, it's most likely to set you up for a later ambush.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)some kind of weapon seems like a foolish idea. Since kids that age are all about being a real man and who is the alpha male and posturing, some would not only bring knives but want to bring guns, and then who knows what could happen. Lets face it, kids are stupid, in general. But I do like the tone of the post at the end, "Whatcha got?" LOL very confrontational but in an amusing way!
lynne
(3,118 posts)- and you don't necessarily need to bring anything. Be aware and creative and use what's at hand. Bats, sports equipment, musical instruments, even heavy books. If you don't stand up to the very first bully, then you become bait for the rest of them. The problem just gets worse, not better. Once you defend yourself, the word gets out quick that you're not an easy mark and they'll leave you alone.
This coming from someone who took off her heavy leather fat heeled shoe and beat the hell out of bully that was torturing my little brother. Yes, I got in trouble but my parents stood by me. And no one ever bullied my brother - or me - again. I told all 3 of my children to never tolerate a bully and they all made it through school without any problems.