Interesting article...The silence over Islamic State’s abuse of women

[clarice]

Last edited Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:43 AM - Edit history (1)

[link:http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/11/25/silence-over-islamic-state-s-abuse-women|

[closeupready]

1. K&R

[clarice]

3. Thanks Closeup and Riders..interesting, 90 views and 2 comments....I guess the silence continues. nt

[closeupready]

4. It's a very important issue, and thank you for opening a discussion here.

[clarice]

6. Thanks s much Closeup....please read my response to Riders....

I would value your opinion as well.

[riderinthestorm]

2. "Those who should speak out have not done so."

K&R

[clarice]

5. Why do you think that they haven't spoken out...... ?

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why most people here don't care.
I've posted several of these type of articles, and rarely receive a response. I don't get it.

[get the red out]

9. Well

I know I have been attacked at times for responding in such discussions by people who shout down anyone who dares talk about this issue instead of condemning the Western world. One of the reasons I put "I am NOT a good liberal" in my tag line.

[clarice]

14. Thanks Red.......so do you feel that there is a "Pro Muslim" bias among most DUers?

[get the red out]

24. I will answer that indirectly

I feel there is a pro Muslim bias among liberals on the web. I don't know if there is actually more balanced view among liberals in general, since the people with a bias are very skilled at throwing insults at people with other viewpoints until they give up and avoid the argument in future.

[JonLP24]

30. Pro Muslim bias?

.06% of the US population are Muslims and well over 70% say they don't know a Muslim personality (but have they have met with & interacted with regular people from India (further east than that) to Africa. I just rarely see debates from people who know what they are talking about. Like all this is going in a vacuum the ultraconservative sect lucking out on top of the oil spending over 100billion spreading the hate but they still haven't talked to the people being used by and large as slave labor which the CEO of Halliburton like the idea from the Gulf war to use it in the Iraq war and cha-ching. The religion is the problem while the DoD & the gulf economies treat them very badly, pay them poorly, and the meantime are constantly watched as well as the racism from Americans who think they're superior -- even non-Muslims from East Asia or Africa are still called Hajis (the slang commonly used by military to refer to the indigenous people but TCNs from India, Nepal, Phillipines, and elsewhere are called Hajis too. Offer you tea a lot, turn down once they offer twice (two nos is considered rude) (and other religions -- particularly Sri Linka maids are executed for "witchcraft" on a weekly basis btw I've known Liberals to criticize Saudi Arabia constantly and consistently when its Republicans who prefer to be silent because they flood the market with oil when we tell them to (plus they'll gladly kick Iran when they have sanctions)

There was a point I was making that all this or our actions or people calling themselves Christian or anything else is treated as something different but liberal bias. No one gives me shit for criticizing condemning Saudi Arabia, ISIS, and being specific with my criticisms. Too often we don't hear but where the ears when Nimr Al-Nimr said "They will use their weapons, we will use the roar of the word." Preached non-violence even after shot in the leg by police, tortured in prison, beaten, went on a hung strike. A popular uprising from the people led to his release where he continued to preach against the Saudi King and was crucified. There were Bahrain uprisings which Saudi Arabia with Pakistan ISI and hired thugs (mercenaries) stepped to brutally crackdown on the protestors and they are overkilling the religious minority in Yemen. The Al-Baghdadi guy got a lot of his first recruits from a US run detention facility where they don't let you use habaes corpus to challenge their detention leading to plenty of recruiting opportunities.

I guess I just don't get what we are criticizing here.

On edit -- which religious groups in the US poll the highest saying attacks on civilians are never justified? Muslims about 70% followed by Athiests & agnostics. Both of those groups are viewed as the least trusted as well.

[get the red out]

41. I didn't criticize a religious group

I am criticizing attacks for different opinions. I said nothing negative about Muslims.

[riderinthestorm]

10. I dont know. So many women's rights advocates here (theoretically)

but then silence when these threads come up.

Sometimes I wonder if it's because Islam has an uncomfortable place on DU.

People want to be PC and not blast the religious and cultural practices for fear of giving offense but that means turning a blind eye to injustices against women.

Since that resolution is too hard for them, they remain silent.

Other times I wonder if some DUers are focused more on semantics and nuanced feminist academia instead of these gross atrocities - it's easier to argue about rape culture and patriarchy in the US without having to also bring up the messy rape culture and Mid East form of patriarchy.

[JonLP24]

13. There is nothing about Wahabbism that is close to traditional Islam

Hell they even oppose the Hajj which is one of the 5 pillars of Islam. PC, most people don't have a clue what they're talking about. Blast Wahabbism you'll be fine, blast the whole faith that 1.5 billion people follow more notable here are probably Malcolm X, Reza Aslan, Ice Cube, and Dave Chapelle.

[clarice]

16. Fascinating post. Thank you. nt

[closeupready]

21. I recently had a discussion about this with a muslim friend of mine.

We were talking about some current event - I think it related to destruction of antiquities within a religious context in which the reverence of such antiquities is interpreted by some Sunni's as idolatry. During the conversation, I asked him about the Saudi destruction of Khadija's home as it related to Sunni Islam, and he stopped me: 'the Saudi's are NOT Sunni; they are Wahhabist.'

That was an interesting remark. I sometimes think I know so much about Islam, but right there, I realized I'm not really as smart as I think, lol. (Which some of you already knew, ).

[JonLP24]

27. The idea starts from only thing is basically the Quran says don't

worship images of Muhammad it also says not to drink -- the Wahabbis think it means prevent idolatry & prevent drinking hence the bans on alcohol. They really take it to absurd levels by moving Muhammad's grave to an undisclosed location based on the idea that if people don't know where his body is then they can't worship his grave but I think a lot of it is about control with the propaganda, Saudi arabia presents this image (and it has a lot impact here as what is representative) & they have political & media power over the region & whatever areas they are in control of rule with fear & intimidation. Public beheadings & crucifixions are there to send a message. The brutality behind their videos.

Saudi Arabia Bulldozes its own heritage

Over 98% of the Kingdom's historical and religious sites have been destroyed since 1985, according to the U.K.-based Islamic Heritage Research Foundation

For centuries the Kaaba, the black cube in the center of Mecca, Saudi Arabia that is Islam’s holiest point, has been encircled by arched porticos erected some three centuries ago by the Ottomans, above dozens of carved marble columns dating back to the 8th century. But earlier this month, any vestiges of the portico and columns were reduced to rubble, cleared to make way for the Saudi government’s expansion of Mecca’s Grand Mosque.

<snip>

Though the Saudi rulers have a long history of destroying historical sites, activists say the pace and range of destruction has recently increased. A few months ago, the house of Hamza, the Prophet Muhammad’s uncle, was flattened to make way for a Meccan hotel, according to Irfan Al Alawi, executive director of the Islamic Heritage Research Foundation. There have even been rumored threats to Muhammad’s tomb in Medina and his birthplace in Mecca.

A 61-page report, published recently in Saudi Arabia’s Journal of the Royal Presidency, suggested separating the Prophet’s tomb from Medina’s mosque, a task “that would amount to its destruction,” Alawi says. “You can’t move it without destroying it.” Moreover, he alleges, plans for a new palace for King Abdullah threaten the library atop the site traditionally identified as the birthplace of Muhammad. Even now, signs in four languages warn visitors that there is no proof that the Prophet Muhammad was born there, “so it is forbidden to make this place specific for praying, supplicating or get [sic] blessing.”

Wahhabism, the prevailing Saudi strain of Islam, frowns on visits to shrines, tombs or religio-historical sites, on grounds that they might lead to Islam’s gravest sin: worshipping anyone other than God. In recent years, the twin forks of Wahhabi doctrine and urban development have speared most physical reminders of Islamic history in the heart of Mecca. The house of the Prophet’s first wife, Khadijah has made way for public toilets. A Hilton hotel stands on the site of the house of Islam’s first caliph, Abu Bakr. Famously, the Kaaba now stands in the shade of one of the world’s tallest buildings, the Mecca Royal Clock Tower, part of a complex built by the Bin Laden Group, boasting a 5-story shopping mall, luxury hotels and a parking garage.

http://time.com/3584585/saudi-arabia-bulldozes-over-its-heritage/

I think the bold really says it all in symbols

The Ottoman Empire was Sunni and it was the Wahabbis fighting wars initiated by the Saud Dynasty

Wahhabism is named after an eighteenth century preacher and scholar, Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab (1703–1792).[16] He started a revivalist movement in the remote, sparsely populated region of Najd,[17] advocating a purging of practices such as the popular "cult of saints", and shrine and tomb visitation, widespread among Muslims, but which he considered idolatry, impurities and innovations in Islam.[5][18] Eventually he formed a pact with a local leader Muhammad bin Saud offering political obedience and promising that protection and propagation of the Wahhabi movement would mean "power and glory" and rule of "lands and men."[19] The movement is centered on the principle of tawhid,[20] or the "uniqueness" and "unity" of God.[18] The movement also draws from the teachings of medieval theologian Ibn Taymiyyah and early jurist Ahmad ibn Hanbal.[21]

The "pact" with bin Saud

"This oasis is yours, do not fear your enemies. By the name of God, if all Nejd was summoned to throw you out, we will never agree to expel you."
—Madawi al-Rasheed, A History of Saudi Arabia: 16

Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab replied:

"You are the settlement's chief and wise man. I want you to grant me an oath that you will perform jihad (Struggle to spread Islam) against the unbelievers. In return you will be imam, leader of the Muslim community and I will be leader in religious matters."
—Madawi al-Rasheed, A History of Saudi Arabia: 16

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Abd_al-Wahhab

I have to add this -- this book published in the 18th century (same time al-Wahhab was alive) so-called "confessions" from a British spy but seems very odd as I don't get why he'd confessed but never read it but certainly wouldn't put it passed them since the British later supported them then later the US (because of the oil & WWII mostly). They also hate communists which was a thing the two nations had in common outside of oil.

Memoirs of Mr. Hempher, The British Spy to the Middle East or Confessions of a British Spy is a document purporting to be the account by an 18th-century British agent, Hempher, of his instrumental role in founding the conservative Islamic reform movement of Wahhabism, as part of a conspiracy to corrupt Islam. It first appeared in 1888, in Turkish, in the five-volume Mir'at al-Haramayn of Ayyub Sabri Pasha (who is thought to be the actual author by at least one scholar).[1] It has been described as "apocryphal",[2] a "forgery",[3] "utter nonsense",[4] and "an Anglophobic variation on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”.[2] It has been widely translated and disseminated, is available on the internet,[4][5][6][7] and still enjoys some currency among some individuals in the Middle East and beyond. In 2002, an Iraqi military officer recapitulated the book in a “top secret document”.[1][8]

Content

In the book, a British spy named Hempher, working in the early 1700s, tells of disguising himself as a Muslim and infiltrating the Ottoman Empire with the goal of weakening it to destroy Islam once and for all. He tells his readers: "when the unity of Muslims is broken and the common sympathy among them is impaired, their forces will be dissolved and thus we shall easily destroy them... We, the English people, have to make mischief and arouse schism in all our colonies in order that we may live in welfare and luxury."[5]

Hempher intends ultimately to weaken Muslim morals by promoting "alcohol and fornication," but his first step is to promote innovation and disorder in Islam by creating Wahhabism, which is to gain credibility by being on the surface morally strict. For this purpose, he enlists "a gullible, hotheaded young Iraqi in Basra named Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab". [4] Hempher corrupts and flatters Wahhab until the man is willing to found his own sect. According to Hempher, he is one of 5,000 British agents with the assignment of weakening Muslims, which the British government plans to increase to 100,000 by the end of the 18th century. Hempher writes, "when we reach this number we shall have brought all Muslims under our sway" and Islam will be rendered "into a miserable state from which it will never recover again."[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs_of_Mr._Hempher,_The_British_Spy_to_the_Middle_East

I can't remember how I stumbled across this so don't know much to the truth of the 18th century book but seems to be based on arrogance either way but points to how controversial they were especially back then.

There was one more thing. Aside from 7 Muslim majority countries so far have elected a female head of state this is where Wahabbism beliefs come from (surprised at the coverage as they must be able to get this off without the King and can't imagine he'd be supportive considering he's part of the Saudi coalition and the few Wahabbi states recognize their occupation of Western Sahara who the people there are lefties (were backed by Cuba revolutionaries back in the day)


Women’s Rights in Saudi Arabia: Wahhabism vs. Islam

Despite the growing attractiveness of this Wahhabi discourse, it is important to recognize that is does not represent the entire gamut of intellectual space in the Muslim world. In effect, although the inferior status of women is a fairly consistent theme in many Muslim countries, its correlation with Islam, though not arbitrary, is not absolute.

There exists endless controversy in both Islamic and Western literature over the Muslim position on women. In their war against Islamic law, women’s rights organizations expose abuses committed by the Saudi regime against women; inherent in their message, therefore, is that Islam is incompatible with the human rights of women.

To terminate this debate, it is crucial to discount all stereotypes attributed to Muslim women and to understand the actual teachings of this faith, and second, understand the Wahhabi interpretation of Islam. This comparative analysis reveals that an examination of women’s rights as outlined in the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet, highlights Islam’s highly revered notion of egalitarianism. Wahhabi regulations for women, on the other hand, are only traced back to the legal codes based on fiqh texts selected and interpreted by a modern patriarchal order.

The Quran and the Hadith, as opposed to the whole of sharia, will be used in the course of this paper to provide authentication for any position or view associated with Islam as much of what is now considered divine and immutable sharia is, in fact, the result of a long, male-dominated intellectual process. This essay seeks to demonstrate how the very nature of Wahhabism diverges from the peaceful premise of Islam. However, the Wahhabi attitude with respect to women is akin with Najdi tribal culture that is dominant in Saudi Arabia, perhaps explaining why this radical ideology is so deeply imbedded within Saudi society.

The issue of the claimed superiority or inferiority of any human, male or female, is unambiguously addressed in the Quran. The sole basis for superiority over another person, according to traditional Islamic belief, is piety and righteousness, not gender, color, or nationality. One of the most remarkable features of the Quran, particularly in comparison with the scriptures of other monotheistic religions, is that women are explicitly addressed as being equals to men (Ahmed 64).

In consonance with the spirit of equality in the Quran, the Prophet is reported to have said, “All people are equal, as equal as the teeth of a comb. There is no claim of merit of an Arab over a non-Arab, or of a white over a black person, or of a male over a female” (Heyneman 51). The wives of the Prophet Muhammad were vibrant and outspoken women. The Prophet’s first wife, Khadija, perhaps best defies the popular perception of Muslim woman. A prominent businesswoman, she was neither oppressed, nor submissive, or subjugated.

http://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2013/04/87234/womens-rights-in-saudi-arabia-wahhabism-vs-islam/

It really took shape with the invention of the automobile because they went from having their own camel to travel freely to can't drive.

It would be fair to say Wahabbism is a sect under Sunni Islam because they definitely differ with Shias where the Sunnis do (something to do with Muhammad Ali as he counts for one but not the other) but Sunni Islam is a very large sect. 70% of the Muslim population are Sunni (Malcolm X & Muhammad Ali (the boxer)) converted to Sunni Islam leaving the Nation of Islam. The Sunni Islam population outnumbers the entire Christian population. Worldwide predominantly made up in large numbers in Asia & Africa.

Malcolm X converted to Sunni Islam after going to Mecca. At first, the Wahabbis knew they couldn't remain credible by continuing to oppose the Hajj (which is why recapturing Mecca (which it was several times) was so important to the Ottoman Empire) so they compromised but regulate the shit out of it handing out passes and it is very political as I think Iran gets none (particularly with the 80s religious leader with the "ungodly Wahabbis" quote and said Mecca was ruled by a "band of heretics". Anyway, Malcolm X had trouble entering the country due to the regulations over the fact he didn't speak Arabic & was an American so he performed some rituals and let him on his way

Malcolm X Letter from Mecca

THE PILGRIMAGE TO MAKKAH

When he was in Makkah, Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz wrote a letter to his loyal assistants in Harlem... from his heart:

"Never have I witnessed such sincere hospitality and overwhelming spirit of true brotherhood as is practiced by people of all colors and races here in this ancient Holy Land, the home of Abraham, Muhammad and all the other Prophets of the Holy Scriptures. For the past week, I have been utterly speechless and spellbound by the graciousness I see displayed all around me by people of all colors.

"I have been blessed to visit the Holy City of Mecca, I have made my seven circuits around the Ka'ba, led by a young Mutawaf named Muhammad, I drank water from the well of the Zam Zam. I ran seven times back and forth between the hills of Mt. Al-Safa and Al Marwah. I have prayed in the ancient city of Mina, and I have prayed on Mt. Arafat."

"There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blondes to black-skinned Africans. But we were all participating in the same ritual, displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and non-white."

"America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered white - but the white attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color."

"You may be shocked by these words coming from me. But on this pilgrimage, what I have seen, and experienced, has forced me to rearrange much of my thought-patterns previously held, and to toss aside some of my previous conclusions. This was not too difficult for me. Despite my firm convictions, I have always been a man who tries to face facts, and to accept the reality of life as new experience and new knowledge unfolds it. I have always kept an open mind, which is necessary to the flexibility that must go hand in hand with every form of intelligent search for truth."

"During the past eleven days here in the Muslim world, I have eaten from the same plate, drunk from the same glass, and slept on the same rug - while praying to the same God - with fellow Muslims, whose eyes were the bluest of blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white. And in the words and in the deeds of the white Muslims, I felt the same sincerity that I felt among the black African Muslims of Nigeria, Sudan and Ghana."

"We were truly all the same (brothers) - because their belief in one God had removed the white from their minds, the white from their behavior, and the white from their attitude."

"I could see from this, that perhaps if white Americans could accept the Oneness of God, then perhaps, too, they could accept in reality the Oneness of Man - and cease to measure, and hinder, and harm others in terms of their 'differences' in color."

"With racism plaguing America like an incurable cancer, the so-called 'Christian' white American heart should be more receptive to a proven solution to such a destructive problem. Perhaps it could be in time to save America from imminent disaster - the same destruction brought upon Germany by racism that eventually destroyed the Germans themselves."

"Each hour here in the Holy Land enables me to have greater spiritual insights into what is happening in America between black and white. The American Negro never can be blamed for his racial animosities - he is only reacting to four hundred years of the conscious racism of the American whites. But as racism leads America up the suicide path, I do believe, from the experiences that I have had with them, that the whites of the younger generation, in the colleges and universities, will see the handwriting on the walls and many of them will turn to the spiritual path of truth - the only way left to America to ward off the disaster that racism inevitably must lead to."

"Never have I been so highly honored. Never have I been made to feel more humble and unworthy. Who would believe the blessings that have been heaped upon an American Negro? A few nights ago, a man who would be called in America a white man, a United Nations diplomat, an ambassador, a companion of kings, gave me his hotel suite, his bed. Never would I have even thought of dreaming that I would ever be a recipient of such honors - honors that in America would be bestowed upon a King - not a Negro."

"All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of all the Worlds.

Sincerely,

Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (Malcolm X)
http://islam.uga.edu/malcomx.html

[riderinthestorm]

25. They are still Muslim however who simply believe in their version of Islam

like the Shia or Alawites or Sufis etc.

You can't simply chuck them out of the fold.

Their version of Islam is as "valid" as any other

[JonLP24]

29. No shit `

but they are the ones going around saying which versions are valid or which aren't but particularly if they are selective using fiqh texts & what from the Quran they can pull to twist like a Christian cult with scripture & twisting once the get in The Door (capitalized for a reason) they have power & control their lives where Bin Laden or whichever cult leader is convincing people to turn themselves into a bomb because they sell Jannah then on top of the propaganda books decades old & the power and financing but they are saying Shia and Alawites aren't valid or saying their way or the highway. I'm saying slamming the faith as the problem doesn't make sense personally because you'd expect something older than 18th century from the rural village of Najd, Saudi Arabia that want to back to like how it was before these innovations but they go back further if they don't teach algebra, trigonemtry, decimals, irrational numbers, etc Instead their schools & universities teach their doctrine. if you're punished you're sent to a religious courts ruled by judges that rule on their doctrine with old school beheadings, amputations, and crucifixions. Considering that they're public executions its designed to rule by fear and intimidation not to rally the people behind them (for that they target their propaganda directly to the reasons for anger &/or poverty like it is so ironic ISIS is heavy into the Sykes-Picot in Syria but outside the Arabian Peninsula nations you see groups popping up in places with heavy oppression such as Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan has been in war since 1978. Northeast Nigeria with the poverty Boko Haram which I think the name with one word consistently interpreted to be prohibited with the other either education or western education (the country is bought by Shell or Halliburton's bribe money (seriously over a trillion in a Swiss bank account just for bribes the 20th time they violated the corrupt business act. Dick Cheney was actually indicated by Nigeria but they settled for a settlement (less than the bribe they paid).

[riderinthestorm]

31. The reality though is that KSA is the biggest player out there educating Muslims

you can't simply try to minimize the fact that this is still Islam and that this version is remarkably popular today.

Just a helpful hint, your posts are difficult to wade through without paragraph breaks. Good info but the "wall of text" is tough.

Peace!

[JonLP24]

38. Because the House of Saud were sitting on top of a shit ton of petro dollars

They replaced the real universities with the religious universities they have massive amounts of political power & money to burn. There was the US & Saudi Arabia helping the right wing militias known as the freedom fighters then the Pakistan ISI organized, trained, and branded The Taliban then Al-Qaeda came from somewhere but got its start with the charity fronts during the Bosnian wars. They aren't very popular but without them the reasons for anger or fighting against the oppressors exist -- hence the Arab spring but Qatar was quick to involve themselves in Tunisia with the charity fronts wealthy Saudis do but the US doesn't want them to do it in the open but particularly Kuwait & Qatar doesn't have those red flags in their banking systems to track terrorism activity but the US is running around acting like they can't put two and two together but you can rather easily because the ideology comes from somewhere. They spent over $100billion spreading Wahabbism compared to USSR and about $10b spreading Communism. Anyways, when there is the power vaccum the financed & organized group such as ISIS steps in to fill the void but whatever is considered popular is more because they were duped by the propaganda or hit the reasons why they want to fight, plus they are offering an economic opportunity where there is none. This is why they target humanitarian aid workers (and lay the knew what they were getting into and what could happen by choosing to do that if a drone hits them but this and journalists they go after for the propaganda kidnappings to send a message to future humanitarian workers and journalists (It is very dangerous overall for them in Syria with the race to the bottom to compete for most human rights violations. Syria's satellite images look like North Korea's but what you see is most people don't want war, they're fleeing any and everywhere with thousands capsizing on overcrowded boats on the Mediterrenian on the way to EU

or go from Kosovo (many of their foreign fighters come from here with the poverty and corruption currently there) through Serbia to get to Hungary to get to the EU. IN Iraq, this all started with Al-Malik the guy the CIA appointed to be Prime Minister of Iraq, was a Shia political leader in the 70s that fled to Iran in exile came back and was already liberally using the new anti-terrorism laws that allow for similar things like indefinite detention used this on Sunnis torturing them as early as '05 if it wasn't '06 the year. Just know that Bush had an early warning he wasn't a uniter but a divider. This went for years then came the 2010-2014 Iraq protests (the guy was raiding the homes of elected Sunni officials, killing 1 in fact. KRG in Kurdistan helped the highest elected Sunni official escape a political prosecution or anti-terrorism charges into Turkey in exile which Maliki was still fuming about from a report this year but remember well because the KRG quote slamming him is terrific. The Northern half of the population were united in protests Kurds & Sunnis then came the 2014 ISIS offensive that was enabled due to Sunni fleeing and Sunni tolerance because in the meantime the unregulated Iran backed militias continued to grow unchecked ISIS takes over a town the whole world hears about it. When Shia or Iraqi Army retake a place the town is ethnically cleansed. This tit-for-tat has been going on for years especially with the for-profit kidnappings but there was AQAP who made the mistake of killing civilians leading Sunnis to ally with the US "The Sunni Awakening" to fight for a new government that doesn't allow them to participate freely so the feeling its illegitimate plus the propaganda over a decade of violence but you don't see these groups in countries without chaos that breeds them (they cut off the supplies and make the local population dependent on them which is why the fight is over the reasons & dams to cut off the electricital but have a functional system when they are cooperating. Saddam flooded Shia crops or gave 'em a drought when he felt they were inconvienent so who controls the rivers controls Iraq. It starts young particularly if the education is removed and all they have is what the grown ups are telling them.

You probably have to skip a bit in part 1 or part 2 of The Islamic State report but see them targeting the young teens or boys heavily with their teachings but in Syria you have are very violent & brutal human rights violators dropping barrel bombs collapsing roofs either killing instantly or a slow painful death trapped underneath. Then you have the IS rebels indiscriminately the other side (literally the two sides of Aleppo are the enemy of the other)

The 'Caliphate Cubs' of IS

SULAIMANIYAH, Iraq — Children have lost their innocence under the rule of the Islamic State (IS). They have become machines of massive destruction that are being calculatedly and calmly gathered to produce a harsher and more extreme army of the future generation. They are also a challenge to the future fight against extremism.

Samir Abdul Aziz (a pseudonym) is a former lawyer who lost his job following IS' closure of many of the law schools in Mosul. In a phone interview with Al-Monitor, Abdul Aziz said it was difficult for him to determine the exact number of children fighting under the IS banner. However, based on information he gathered from people close to the group, he said that IS has been training child soldiers in special camps in Mosul.

“IS uses certain names to label [children's] camps, which gives the impression that they are some sort of private religious schools. The organization also calls the children fighters 'The Caliphate Cubs.' Children undergo three different levels of training in these schools. The first is religious training, whereby children are taught IS jihadi ideology and approach. Children are brainwashed into becoming hateful and ready to commit suicide. The second level is practical, as children receive harsh physical training, and are taught to use weapons. The third level is psychological: Children are taken to public squares to participate in slaughters, or are placed at the forefront of the Hisbah [religious police] sessions, or in the mosques’ sermons so as to promote their leadership skills and their sense of superiority,” Abdul Aziz said.

According to Abdul Aziz, the children's training camps are to be found in remote areas, away from the cities. IS is moving children's camps from Mosul to Raqqa and is bringing children from Raqqa, Anbar, Diyala and Kirkuk to be trained in Mosul, to isolate and distance the children as much as possible from their social environment.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/06/iraq-isis-children-recruits-army-qaeda-execution.html

They close a law school and open the children camps

[LanternWaste]

32. No more and no less than my interpretation of the law is as valid as any other...

Their version of Islam is as "valid" as any other..."

No more and no less than my interpretation of the law is as valid as any other...

[riderinthestorm]

39. We have a Supreme Court to interpret the law and give the final decision

Islam has no ultimate authority.

ISIS is purporting to grab that title for themselves which mean their version of Islam is the ultimate law of that land (for now).

That it happens to be the KSA version is very unfortunate

[clarice]

15. I think that you are right on. nt

[Fumesucker]

12. Some of us do care

I think part of what happens is that the "criticizing Islam is racist" issue tends to quiet people down who would otherwise be supportive.

Conservative religion is conservative religion and just as damaging to society when it's Islamic as when it's Christian.

[clarice]

20. So true. nt

[JonLP24]

22. Otherwise be supportive -- I don't think so

Who are we attacking here? I have no issues with criticizing conservative fundamentalist cults & religions but again who is being criticized. What do the media images & stereotypes show. People were pro racial profiling after 9/11 -- including Bill Maher who wrote a book criticizing Bush for not being tough enough going after these terrorists shows Bin Laden going through wearing fatigues & everything going through the airport checkpoint while grandma is held up but to me it doesn't matter: bigotry is bigotry but are so people fooled into thinking or doubt Obama is being genuine when he says he is a Christian - not a Muslim (the Arabic name may have something to do with it) or shortly after 9/11 two ignorant fools killed a store clerk here in East Mesa who was Sikh but they thought he was a Muslim. Didn't matter to much to them he looked the part. Heard of the term "sand n---?"

The Horrifying Effects of NYPD Ethnic Profiling on Innocent Muslim Americans

America's largest city, an ethnically diverse, politically liberal melting pot of more than 8 million people, routinely violates the civil liberties of its racial and ethnic minorities. New York City's "Stop and Frisk" policy, the subject of class action lawsuit, annually ensnares hundreds of thousands of innocent New Yorkers, a majority of them black and Latino. Complaints about searches sans probable cause are constant. Listen for yourself as a 17-year-old Harlem boy is stopped, called a "fucking mutt" and threatened with a broken arm. Read about the part of "Stop and Frisk" that was already declared unconstitutional in federal court. See the appalled street protesters. The visible activism and vocal dissent is as it should be.

But the sustained public backlash against "Stop and Frisk" is also a reminder that Americans know comparatively little about the Muslim Americans whose communities haven't just been disproportionately impacted by NYPD attention, but exclusively targeted in a deliberate, decade long policy of outright ethnic profiling.

As it turns out, many were too rattled to go on the record with complaints, and have spoken out for the first time only after being sought out by a coalition of civil-liberties organizations, which has compiled testimony that shows the high cost these innocents have paid merely for being Muslim in New York.

First, a bit of background:

The Associated Press brought the NYPD's clandestine spying on Muslims to the public's attention in a series of vital stories. Starting shortly after the September 11 terrorist attacks, officers infiltrated Muslim communities and spied on hundreds or perhaps thousands of totally innocent Americans at mosques, colleges, and elsewhere. These officers "put American citizens under surveillance and scrutinized where they ate, prayed and worked, not because of charges of wrongdoing but because of their ethnicity," the news agency reported, citing NYPD documents. Informants were paid to bait Muslims into making inflammatory statements. The NYPD even conducted surveillance on Muslim Americans outside its jurisdiction, drawing a rebuke from an FBI field office, where a top official charged that "the department's surveillance of Muslims in the state has hindered investigations and created 'additional risks' in counterterrorism."

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/03/the-horrifying-effects-of-nypd-ethnic-profiling-on-innocent-muslim-americans/274434/

Most Muslims tend to be Asia & Africa's poor. In the US, I'm not sure on the numbers but many of the American Muslim population are African-American. Many Muslims were brought here on slave ships had their religion suppressed & converted to Christianity. Omar Ibn Said is notable for his Arabic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_ibn_SaidBible.

[Fumesucker]

23. I was talking about on DU not out in the world

[closeupready]

17. I can only speculate. In the past, I've tried to

open discussions about modern human/sex slavery; typically such discussions go nowhere. Obviously, it's not because anyone here is pro-slavery.

Rather, the topic is very dark and serious, and many here would rather play e-dodgeball about popular semantics and whether a person should groom their physical appearance or not - you know, the REALLY important things.

All I can say is, keep posting about it, any and all of it. If you look back one day and assess whether you did 'enough', you can be proud of your efforts at trying to change matters, though those efforts may have been fruitless for reasons beyond your control.

[clarice]

18. You ROCK !!!! Thanks Closeup. nt

[closeupready]

44. Further to my advice, there's someone in my life who is

(I'm 90% sure) staunchly Republican. For reasons I won't go into here on the board, let's just say it's not a relationship I can sever - nor do I want to, to be honest; she's otherwise very sweet, with a good soul. I always enjoy talking with her; she's interesting, polite, smart, and caring.

She recently posted something to her FB feed publicizing an anti-human trafficking conference. I had no idea she had such strong humanitarian, liberal views on human rights, but to the extent that it's somewhat likely that some in her social circle are going to be turned off that she doesn't just want to just play games, how can you have anything but complete respect for her, and her integrity?

I'll admit that her boldness about such a big issue makes me ashamed of my too-frequent participation amongst the shallow and pointless 'doodyhead!' discussions that go on here at DU.

That is, a Republican is walking the walk, while we here debate board semantics. 'Politics makes strange bedfellows.'

[LanternWaste]

34. More often than not, it's my own points-of-view denying me the opportunity to see clearly

I rarely allow myself the irrational convenience in believing that simply because I do not see a thing in any great number, that thing therefore does not exist in any great number.

More often than not, it's my own points-of-view denying me the opportunity to see clearly that which does not validate my bias. And sometimes (not very often, but sometimes) a criticism of A may simply be an insincere and disengenuous attempt at criticizing B.

[leftynyc]

35. Because Bill Maher was right

and Islam gets a pass on the left - unless you also condemn Christianity and the West in your post also. Then you MAY get some attention.

[jwirr]

36. I'm not convinced they do not care - often it is a feeling of helplessness that makes one stay

quiet. If one has no idea what to do about a situation and does not think it would help even if they do then often they say nothing. It is a "What's the difference?" attitude. Especially in situations like the ME where most of what we have done has only made the situation worse.

[MH1]

7. Please note the article title: "The silence over Islamic State’s abuse of women"

It isn't about the "abuse of women in Muslim countries", it is about the silence in those countries towards the abuse of women by the so-called Islamic State.

There's a huge difference. Probably your rewording was unintentional in its new meaning, but you might want to change it.

And trust me, I wouldn't be the first person to stand up for "Muslim countries" being great in the way they treat women, in general. I just think that's a really broad brush and NOT what the article is about.

[clarice]

8. noted.ed Thanks. nt

[JonLP24]

11. There's not much silence when it comes to ISIS when it comes to anything

There is silence, however when Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Sudan's rulers are backed by the conservative Wahabbis so there was the Islamasize of its 19 Universities in the 90's -- stoning and such. Muslims have been objecting to Wahabbism before the French & British took their side of an enemy to destroy them from the inside. The year the Saud Dynasty won back Saudi Arabia - 1918.

Ottoman–Wahhabi War
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ottoman–Saudi War
Date Early 1811 – 1818
Location Arabian Peninsula
Result Decisive Ottoman victory
Destruction of the Emirate of Diriyah (First Saudi State)
Belligerents
Flag of the First Saudi State.svg Emirate of Diriyah
Al-Qasim Ottoman flag.svg Ottoman Empire
Flag of Egypt (1793-1844).svg Egypt Eyalet
Commanders and leaders
Flag of the First Saudi State.svg Saud Ibn Abdul Aziz Ibn Mohammed Ibn Saud
Flag of the First Saudi State.svg Abdullah I Executed
Flag of the First Saudi State.svg Ghassab bin Shar'an Executed Ottoman flag.svg Mahmud II
Flag of Egypt (1793-1844).svg Tusun Pasha
Flag of Egypt (1793-1844).svg Muhammad Ali Pasha
Flag of Egypt (1793-1844).svg Ibrahim Pasha
Strength
20,000 50,000
Casualties and losses
11,000 dead
3,000 wounded 2,000 dead
1,000 wounded
50 captured
[show]

v
t
e

Ottoman–Saudi War
[show]

v
t
e

Campaigns of Muhammad Ali of Egypt

The Ottoman–Wahhabi War also known as the Ottoman–Saudi War or the Ottoman-Salafi War, was fought from early 1811 to 1818, between Egypt Eyalet under the reign of Muhammad Ali Pasha (nominally under Ottoman rule) and the army of the First Saudi State. It resulted in the destruction of the First Saudi State.

Contents

1 Background
2 Campaigns
3 Aftermath
4 See also
5 Sources

Background

The Wahhabi movement was part of a fundamentalist/revisionist movement within Islam that would lead to creation of the first Saudi State, and its crushing by the Ottoman empire’s Egyptian viceroy Muhammad Ali Pasha.

Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab and the amir Muhammad ibn Sa’ud launched their campaign to reform Islam and consolidate power in Arabia from their power-base in Diriyah. By 1805, the Wahhabis controlled Mecca and Medina, had attacked Karbala and the Imam Husayn Shrine.[1] The Wahhabis also attacked Ottoman trade caravans which interrupted the Ottoman finances.[2] The Saudi amir denounced the Ottoman sultan and called into question the validity of his claim to be caliph and guardian of the sanctuaries of the Hejaz[3] and the Ottoman empire instructed the upstart Muhammad ‘Ali, viceroy of Egypt, to fight the Wahhabis. The Ottoman empire was suspicious of Muhammed Ali’s ambition, and thought that by ordering Ali against the Wahhabis, the defeat of either would be beneficial.[2]
Campaigns
Painting of Abdullah bin Saud, convicted and executed after losing the war.

Muhammad ‘Ali was ordered to crush the Saudi state as early as December 1807 by Sultan Mustafa IV, however internal strife within Egypt prevented him from giving full attention to the Wahhabis. The Egyptians were not able to recapture the holy cities until 1811.[3]

However, it would take until September 1818 for the Wahhabi state to end with the surrendering of the its leaders. Ibrahim Pasha, Muhammad ‘Ali’s son, had taken over the campaign in 1817. Gaining the support of the volatile Arabian tribes by skillful diplomacy and lavish gifts, he advanced into central Arabia to occupy the towns of Unaizah and Buraidah. Joined now by most of the principal tribes, he appeared before the Saudi capital Diriyah in April 1818. With their march to Diriyah plagued by Wahhabi attacks, they arrived in Diriyah in April 1818. It took until September for the Wahhabis to surrender, in part due to Ibrahim’s poorly trained army. Diriyah was destroyed on June 1819, and Egyptian garrisons were posted in the principal towns. The head of the Wahhabi state, Amir ‘Abd Allah, was sent to Constantinople to be executed.[3]
Aftermath

Amir ‘Abd Allah, as head of the Wahhabi state, was sent for execution to Istanbul, while most of the political leaders were treated well. The empire was far more harsh with the religious leaders that inspired the Wahhabi movement. The execution of Sulayman ibn ‘Abd Allah and other religious notables reflects the resentment of these extremist views. Religious leaders were thought to be uncompromising in their beliefs and therefore a much bigger threat than political leaders.[3]





Ottoman–Wahhabi War
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ottoman–Saudi War
Date Early 1811 – 1818
Location Arabian Peninsula
Result Decisive Ottoman victory
Destruction of the Emirate of Diriyah (First Saudi State)
Belligerents
Flag of the First Saudi State.svg Emirate of Diriyah
Al-Qasim Ottoman flag.svg Ottoman Empire
Flag of Egypt (1793-1844).svg Egypt Eyalet
Commanders and leaders
Flag of the First Saudi State.svg Saud Ibn Abdul Aziz Ibn Mohammed Ibn Saud
Flag of the First Saudi State.svg Abdullah I Executed
Flag of the First Saudi State.svg Ghassab bin Shar'an Executed Ottoman flag.svg Mahmud II
Flag of Egypt (1793-1844).svg Tusun Pasha
Flag of Egypt (1793-1844).svg Muhammad Ali Pasha
Flag of Egypt (1793-1844).svg Ibrahim Pasha
Strength
20,000 50,000
Casualties and losses
11,000 dead
3,000 wounded 2,000 dead
1,000 wounded
50 captured
[show]

v
t
e

Ottoman–Saudi War
[show]

v
t
e

Campaigns of Muhammad Ali of Egypt

The Ottoman–Wahhabi War also known as the Ottoman–Saudi War or the Ottoman-Salafi War, was fought from early 1811 to 1818, between Egypt Eyalet under the reign of Muhammad Ali Pasha (nominally under Ottoman rule) and the army of the First Saudi State. It resulted in the destruction of the First Saudi State.

Contents

1 Background
2 Campaigns
3 Aftermath
4 See also
5 Sources

Background

The Wahhabi movement was part of a fundamentalist/revisionist movement within Islam that would lead to creation of the first Saudi State, and its crushing by the Ottoman empire’s Egyptian viceroy Muhammad Ali Pasha.

Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab and the amir Muhammad ibn Sa’ud launched their campaign to reform Islam and consolidate power in Arabia from their power-base in Diriyah. By 1805, the Wahhabis controlled Mecca and Medina, had attacked Karbala and the Imam Husayn Shrine.[1] The Wahhabis also attacked Ottoman trade caravans which interrupted the Ottoman finances.[2] The Saudi amir denounced the Ottoman sultan and called into question the validity of his claim to be caliph and guardian of the sanctuaries of the Hejaz[3] and the Ottoman empire instructed the upstart Muhammad ‘Ali, viceroy of Egypt, to fight the Wahhabis. The Ottoman empire was suspicious of Muhammed Ali’s ambition, and thought that by ordering Ali against the Wahhabis, the defeat of either would be beneficial.[2]
Campaigns
Painting of Abdullah bin Saud, convicted and executed after losing the war.

Muhammad ‘Ali was ordered to crush the Saudi state as early as December 1807 by Sultan Mustafa IV, however internal strife within Egypt prevented him from giving full attention to the Wahhabis. The Egyptians were not able to recapture the holy cities until 1811.[3]

However, it would take until September 1818 for the Wahhabi state to end with the surrendering of the its leaders. Ibrahim Pasha, Muhammad ‘Ali’s son, had taken over the campaign in 1817. Gaining the support of the volatile Arabian tribes by skillful diplomacy and lavish gifts, he advanced into central Arabia to occupy the towns of Unaizah and Buraidah. Joined now by most of the principal tribes, he appeared before the Saudi capital Diriyah in April 1818. With their march to Diriyah plagued by Wahhabi attacks, they arrived in Diriyah in April 1818. It took until September for the Wahhabis to surrender, in part due to Ibrahim’s poorly trained army. Diriyah was destroyed on June 1819, and Egyptian garrisons were posted in the principal towns. The head of the Wahhabi state, Amir ‘Abd Allah, was sent to Constantinople to be executed.[3]
Aftermath

Amir ‘Abd Allah, as head of the Wahhabi state, was sent for execution to Istanbul, while most of the political leaders were treated well. The empire was far more harsh with the religious leaders that inspired the Wahhabi movement. The execution of Sulayman ibn ‘Abd Allah and other religious notables reflects the resentment of these extremist views. Religious leaders were thought to be uncompromising in their beliefs and therefore a much bigger threat than political leaders.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93Wahhabi_War

Its not difficult to find Muslim leaders or otherwise to condemn Wahhabism as there is nothing traditional over the strict set of rules. No education, universities? It don't matter who says what because they aren't going to listen because their cult leaders with the help of propaganda and very deliberate ways of starving off the population, cut them off from aid or whatever to force them to join their cause like gangs of El Salvador start off kill us or join us where under Wahabbi dictatorships these are the rules but its just a way to control others as the first rule is don't criticize them. You can thank the petrodollars and all those years when we had their ear it shows what we asked for.

[Gloria]

26. And while we're at it..

I was driving to the vet this AM and passed one if those covenant churches housed in an old metal building annd had the thought that when
do women's groups, Planned Parenthood, pols start calling this crap ABUSE...Catholic Church abuses everybody, and these evangelical freaks are all about abuse...forced intravaginsl ultrasounds that are unecessary, etc etc.

The terms ABUSE/ABUSERS need to become part of the mainstream when talking about most religious crap and the GOP!

[clarice]

28. It always comes to this whenever i post about......

Atrocities in the Middle East........"But in America, the same thing happens" "Every religion does it" "....on and on.

[leftynyc]

37. Thank you so much for proving my

point so well. Islam gets a pass on the left unless you denounce either the west or Christianity at the same time.

[Gloria]

42. I made no comment about Islam so you are extrapolating

Is off the mark. I was merely venting about the crap that's around us here.

FYI, I think the Saudis and all the rest are pretty crappy and I wouldn' t want to live under the most extreme practices anywhere. Under less extreme versions, many women have professions and positions of influence. It varies from country to country, too. Some women are fine with the faith, esp those who aren't living in the most extreme situations. And, remember there are some pretty repressive Jewish groups, too.

However, I hate the fact that the U.S. ignores the plight of women living under abusive regimes with brutal religious/cultural laws and practices. Our "committment" to freedom and democracy stops when it comes to women. Just hypocrisy and hollow words coming from country that has a party that is regessing to the level we see elsewhere...In Afganistan, while were there, women have clawed back some rights, but they will be gone when/if the Taliban takes ovet again.

As for the silence of Islam re Isis....I think there's more fear of being toppled than any concern about atrocities committed against women or children or even men. Just collatersl damage.



Stop assuming you know what I think...smacks of your own paternalism!

[Comrade Grumpy]

33. DU reflects America. We don't really give a shit about the rest of the world.

Unless we're discussing whether the US should bomb or invade a part of it.

IS is horrid. What it does to women is horrid. What it does to ethnic or religious minorities is horrid. But threads about it will never garner the interest that Caitlyn Jenner does.

[clarice]

40. lololol....that was RICH !!! .nt

[Liberal_in_LA]

43. kick