Sorry folks there is disability fraud

[UglyGreed]

And with cuts to other programs such as welfare combined with lack of jobs there will be more desperate people trying to survive.

U.S. District Court Judge Sharon Gleason sentenced Amancio Zamora Agcaoili, a U.S. Postal Services employee, to 30 months in jail and three years of supervised probation after he pled guilty to Social Security Disability fraud and other crimes to the tune of $365,831.50, according to the United States Department of Justice.

Agcaoili, a 57-year-old Alaskan native, faked his injuries, received payments from two different programs, lied to each of the programs about the payments and lack of injuries, and double dipped, among other crimes to which he pled guilty.

According to WKUU, Agcaoili worked for the United States Postal Service when a lower back injury put him on the disabled list.

A multiyear investigation by the Social Security Administration Office of the Inspector General (SSA-OIG) and the United States Postal Service Office of the Inspector General (USPS-OIG) into payments Agcaoili received between 2009 and 2014 resulted in his arrest in April, 2014, according to WKUU.

http://www.inquisitr.com/2073493/social-security-disability-fraud-postal-worker-who-faked-disabilities-sentenced-to-30-months/


Liability & Litigation Workers Comp Coverage Workers Comp Disability Claims Disputes Claims Management
A Massachusetts correctional officer who ran car dealerships while receiving workers compensation and other injury-related benefits has been ordered to pay more than $305,000 in restitution and serve five years of probation, the Massachusetts Attorney General’s office said Friday.

Paul Mahan, 42, of Athol, Massachusetts, pleaded guilty in Suffolk County, Massachusetts, Superior Court last week to workers comp fraud and larceny, according to a statement from the attorney general’s office.

“This defendant fraudulently collected state benefits, claiming he could not work, while at the same time working and earning money,” Attorney General Maura Healey said in a statement. “These benefits are intended to help individuals who are unable to work as the result of on-the-job injuries, and we will pursue those who exploit these programs.”

Mr. Mahan began working as a correctional officer with the Suffolk County Sheriff’s Department in 1997, and suffered a job-related knee injury in 2000, according to the attorney general’s statement. He underwent various independent medical examinations over the course of several years to determine the extent of his disability, and was determined to be permanently and totally disabled in 2006.

Mr. Mahan received workers comp benefits, assault pay and retirement benefits from the Suffolk County Sheriff’s Department, the sum of which totaled more than 100% of Mr. Mahan’s salary as a correctional officer, the statement said.

http://www.businessinsurance.com/article/20150601/NEWS08/150609983


Spokane – A Spokane woman who helped operate a motel and apartment building while claiming she was too injured to work has pleaded guilty in a nearly $100,000 disability scam.
Mistie S. Crosby, 53, pleaded guilty today to three counts of third-degree theft, which is a gross misdemeanor. As part of her plea agreement, Crosby paid full restitution at the sentencing in the amount of $98,623. The money will be returned to the state workers' compensation fund administered by the Washington State Department of Labor & Industries (L&I). The Washington Attorney General's Office prosecuted the case.
"The purpose of the workers' comp fund is to help workers heal from on-the-job injuries — not support crooks," said Elizabeth Smith, assistant director for L&I Fraud Prevention & Labor Standards. "We want workers' comp cheaters to know that they will be held accountable, and in the end it is going to cost them."
Spokane County Superior Court Judge Linda Tompkins also ordered Crosby to serve 364 days in jail, with all but 10 days suspended if she obeys the law for two years and pays her remaining court costs. The judge allowed Crosby to serve the 10 days in electronic home monitoring.

http://lni.wa.gov/News/2015/pr150515a.asp


http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20150602_Delco_nurse_charged_in_insurance_fraud_scam.html

http://www.marshfieldnewsherald.com/story/news/crime/2015/06/04/marshfield-woman-sentenced-social-security-fraud/28495973/

http://abcnews.go.com/US/blind-milwaukee-businessman-caught-committing-disability-fraud/story?id=28124452

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/west/2015/05/29/369929.htm

Of course Lawyers make a lot of cash committing fraud themselves.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/lawyer-84-pleads-guilty-disability-fraud-article-1.2132531

ringleader as well as a poster boy in a massive Social Security disability scam netting arrests of dozens of retired cops and firefighters pleaded guilty Friday.

Raymond Lavallee, 84, a Long Island lawyer who represented the applicants and coached them through making false claims to work the system and get fraudulent benefits will get a year behind bars and will have to pay $2 million in restitution.

Lavallee, who agreed to cooperate with the DA’s office and Social Security administration, pleaded guilty to a single count of fourth-degree conspiracy. He is the last of the four top offenders in the case to admit his guilt.

NYPD retiree Richard Cosentino, 51, previously pleaded guilty but had his grand larceny conviction reduced on Friday after completing 100 hours of community service and paying $270,000 in restitution.

During the January 2014 sweep, prosecutors revealed a photo of Cosentino holding a large marlin during a fishing trip in Costa Rica, which they used to demonstrate he was not truly disabled.


These are the ones who have been caught, others like the people I know personally have been flying under the radar for years. Of I'm just a co-conspirator, banal specimen of the human race for pointing out such matters even thought people like myself suffer the most from these frauds.

[dembotoz]

1. so lets make disability the new ronny raygun welfare cadilac?

go after the culprits without screwing up the system.

[NightWatcher]

2. You show me any program, I'll show you fraud

Does that mean that we should get rid of the program?

The rw'ers do not want to pay for any government programs. Do you think they'd pay more to increase fraud prevention? Nope, they'll just use anecdotal stories to tell us why they should be cancelled.

I know people on disability, I am on it myself, and I also have a family member who is not really disabled but has worked the system to get her $1300 a month.

How many big CEO's are manipulating the system for more than $1300 a month? These are small fish in a very big ocean. Perpetuating stories of fraud like this only serve the GOP's purpose to shrink these government programs so much that they can be looted or drowned in a bath tub.

But you didn't know you were helping them?

[Travis_0004]

6. I think we should go after CEOs cheating the system and your family member

There are limited funds, and your family member cheating the system takes money away from those who truly need it. I think we should aggressively go after fraud in any form, I just think the case recently where benefits were cut off before an investigation was wrong. They should have done the investigation first, then cut off benefits and arrest anybody cheating the system.

[NightWatcher]

8. Where's the money to fund an investigations division?

It would cost way more to fund an investigations arm and the agency would sooner accept losses from a few fraud cases in lieu of funding the fraud investigation division.

Once again, this is small fish being used to drive a wedge into the electorate.

[Travis_0004]

10. I would bet you could stop more fraud than the investigation costs

There is also a detterent to stop some people from cheating the system if they can discover more fraud.

I would imagine you could hire in investigator for 52ka year. If they catch one person a year cheating the system there is savings ( since that person would likely collect around 1k a month for decades)

[NightWatcher]

13. I used to work in workman's comp fraud

Business slowed because most insurance companies (and govt agencies) would rather accept a shrinkage due to fraud of 6% than pay 15-20% to investigate fraud.

[Jackpine Radical]

108. That's about the right number, from what I've seen.

Some recent study gave it 8%, but I didn't look closely at the study to see the confidence intervals r precisely how they were measuring things.

[unapatriciated]

151. You got it right

Last edited Sat Jun 6, 2015, 02:16 PM - Edit history (1)

when it comes to social programs the amount of fraud is smaller than what it would cost to investigate.
Now corporate welfare is a different story, but all you hear about is our much needed social programs. My son is on SSI and gets a whopping $650 a month and $150 in snap benefits. He is really living high. He would love to be able to work but it is hard to find a job that would accommodate his disabilities. He has tried many times over the years but the stress and physical strain on his body has caused more than a few relapses of his dermatomyositis. Which has resulted in long hospital stays with permanent damage to his body.

edited to clarify SSI not SSDI

[NightWatcher]

155. Holy crap, your son has DM?

3 years ago I was diagnosed with the disease that no one can pronounce as well as lupus, Raynauds, and a couple others.

What are the primary meds he's on? I just took my daily Plaquenil and weekly Methotrexate, so I'm not good for anything today or tomorrow.

Is it ok if I pm you later on?

[unapatriciated]

170. Right now he is drug free (for dermato) for the first time in over 20 years.

when he was diagnosed in 1991, he was taking cyclorsporin, prednisone, methotrexate and a blood pressure medication. They could not get control of the disease so he underwent two chemo treatments and intravenous prednisone. They put him back on cyclorsporin, prednisone and methotrexate, with a host of other drugs for the side effects of the first three. It took six months to get a controlled remission and he continued on with lower dosages from age 13 to 28. He had five relapses (each time they would increase his medications) over that time period with long hospital stays. At 28 he relapsed again and they added plaquenil. Two years ago he was finally off of all medications for the Dermatomyositis. unfortunately he had a heart attack last year (age 35) and had to have two stints put in, now he is on medication for his heart. We are keeping our fingers crossed that his Dermatomyositis stays in remission.

I think I talked to you when you were first diagnosed in the chronic health conditions forum. I was sorry to hear about your diagnosis and yes you can pm me anytime. I'm not on DU very much but will check in more often.

[NightWatcher]

176. Sending thoughts and good wishes

[KittyWampus]

93. the CEO cheating the system has very deep pockets and can tie up the courts & govt

A low level family member doesn't have deep pockets… hence the focus on small fish.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

36. +1000

Pretty much what I was going to say!

[jwirr]

53. That is exactly what CBS 60 Minutes did in their anti-SSDI program all anecdotal stories to prove

their point and their point was wrong. There is fraud in every single program the government runs from SSDI to IRS. Anecdotal stories do not prove anything about the overall program. But there are millions on these programs that are honest and do not deserve to be treated the way they are because of the few.

[daredtowork]

133. When MSNBC was allegedly the "liberal" network, why didn't they

do their own counter-program to all this Entitlement Cuts Porn?

There needed to be whole News Hour Specials devoted on the bureaucratic nightmare that SSI/SSDI applicants go through, and how they have to survive in the meantime. And someone needs to underscore that it's the hyper-vigilance around "fraud and waste" that causes all this. The real waste is going into the fat Fraud and Waste Bureaucracy.

It would help to simplify the process and lower the stakes a lot: then people wouldn't need lawyers to apply, and they could move on and off of benefits with ease instead needing to hold on to the benefits after spending three years to apply for them. And frankly devoting the resources to doing reviews on people in wheel chairs with obviously permanent conditions is ridiculous. Let them self-report changes in their situation!

People who go to work can be registered through the simple fact of filed tax forms.

Report fraud to the FBI. The actual people of interest would be the doctor and the lawyer, because there's no money to be made in just one client.

Better yet, give everyone a Mincome, and stop "testing" each other.

[unapatriciated]

161. My son is on SSI

Last edited Sat Jun 6, 2015, 02:13 PM - Edit history (2)

He has to go through a review every two-three years. The last one was very humiliating (this was not the first nor will it be the last time he will be treated this way). The case worker told him he should be very grateful that they allowed him to collect welfare. She berated him and insisted that he could work in fast food thus not being a drain on the system. He finally had enough and stood up and took off his long sleeve shirt and asked if she would like to trade places with him.
My son barley weighs 80 pounds and has little or no muscle mass. He has been fighting dermatomyositis since he was 13 and spent many years in a wheel chair. His bones are brittle, liver, kidney and heart damage (had to have two stints put in last year). Because he has worked very little due to the constant relapses he receives a whopping $650 a month and $150 in snap benefits. It really pisses me off when someone starts spouting shit about fraud in our social programs. They have no idea what it is like to beg just to survive. The fraud is so minimal that it would cost more to investigate than the actual fraud. I, his siblings, aunts, uncles and cousins are all employed and pay more than enough in taxes so that my son can have the dignity of being able to live on his own. Eventually he will have to move home as his body gives out, but for now he deserves a little dignity.

edited post because the review time has varied over the years and clarify it is SSI not SSDI

[jwirr]

182. Hear - hear.

[House of Roberts]

3. Right wingers won't adequately fund enforcement,

then use cases like this as an excuse to kill the program outright.

It boils down to whether you value a program for who it helps, because you'd rather let a few cheat in order that those who need help get it, or you'd rather kill a program that helps people, because it grates on you that a few game the system.

[Human101948]

35. That's why they trumpet these cases of fraud...

You notice that for their heroes all that is necessary is a stern talking to by Jesus and all is forgiven.

[Fumesucker]

4. And the Pentagon "lost" $2.3 Trillion with a "T" over the last twenty years

Anything humans do is going to be imperfect, I'd rather be imperfect about helping Americans than killing brown people in foreign countries.

[UglyGreed]

9. But is it fair

to attack a person like myself when I know for a fact that people I know are scamming the system? I am the problem for pointing this out? IMO the numbers that people use to point out the fraud is low is not a good indicator since it only includes those who have been caught. Do we truly know how many are working off the books while collecting benefits? I only used the two people I know for certain since they boasted of gaming the system and know the people they work for. I know other people who also collect but I will not label them and give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't think it is "right wing" to feel it is an insult to those who do really need the help.

[Fumesucker]

14. There's on OP in GD right now about "reputation" on DU

If you end up with a reputation for helping catapult right wing propaganda a lot then that is your reputation.

Not meaning you specifically, you haven't annoyed me enough to know your reputation.

I see it among my friends and relatives, they get apoplectic over someone collecting $100 a month in food stamps but $2.8 Trillion lost at the Pentagon they likely don't even know about and if I were to inform them of it they will say they care about that too but the next day you hear nothing about the Pentagon and they are back to complaining about "welfare cheats".

Let me put it this way, I know more people who desperately need help and aren't getting it than are getting it and don't need it, a lot more. That makes me reluctant to stiffen the requirements because I know that too will hurt people who need help.

[UglyGreed]

20. I'm sorry

but I don't see exposing fraud as right wing propaganda. I understand what you are saying but I'm not the type of guy that follows around people in the supermarket to see what they buy with their food stamps, of course some people will label me as such. But I must admit since I was denied SS and see these people scam the system it makes me wonder how many others used this lawyer and other lawyers like him across the country and are collecting benefits who are truly not in need. I find this type of behavior repulsive, I can not help but feel this way.

[LanternWaste]

22. Exposing fraud would be giving names, addresses, relevant information, etc to the appropriate agency

"but I don't see exposing fraud as right wing propaganda...."

Exposing fraud would be giving names, addresses, relevant information, etc. to the appropriate agency or department. Simple editorials re: our personal feelings about someone else's actions is merely complaining-- not exposing.

[UglyGreed]

26. Well I have done that

and the fraud continues to this day. So in other words I should not express what I have witnessed even though it was relative to the subject matter? Crooked Lawyers helping people scam the system?

[brewens]

57. I know what you mean when talking to friends and relatives. It's like talking

to a box of rocks. You think you get through to them bringing up defense department or Wall Street fraud, they even say they agree but it doesn't really sink in. Then it's right back to FOX "News" or their favorite hate radio pervert, they reprogram and it's scrubbed from their mind!

[randys1]

101. Reminds me of a friend who now gets a huge PTSD check each month directly

because OBAMA streamlined the benefits and this veteran gives Obama zero credit for it, but THAT is not the story.

The story is the rightwing people who will SCREAM when they hear these vets get these benefits, I have witnessed it.

They support the troops until they actually need something, then it is FUCK EM

[Bradical79]

195. Well your headline is a strawman argument

No one was claiming there is no fraud, so topic title looks like a rebuttal to a claim made by nobody. It's not a great way to start, and considering the general Republican argument against these sorts of programs, it does make your post look right wing. Not surprised you're taking a lot of heat.

[Throd]

12. I'm for investiating and eliminating fraud in all levels of government.

Military fraud, disability fraud and all other forms of fraud.

[gratuitous]

114. The number I saw was $8.5 trillion

And that's just what we know about:

http://crooksandliars.com/2015/06/report-reveals-85-trillion-missing

In the same way some people would rather see a justice system that lets 100 criminals go free rather than execute 1 innocent person, we have some people who would rather see 1,000 people starve in the streets than let 1 person scam the system for $10,000.

[Duppers]

152. +100

[Igel]

5. Of course there's disability fraud.

If there's a way to commit fraud, somebody will find it.

And reasonable measures are appropriate to avoid it.

People who assume that we should deny its existence or overlook it because it may lead to bad PR want to wage what they think is an easy fight to protect something they think threatened instead of what may be a harder fight to accomplish the same goal.

Or perhaps if they deny there can be any fraud they feel protected from allegations of fraud, so it's "I don't want to be judged" thing.

[DeadLetterOffice]

7. And your point is... ? n/t

[UglyGreed]

11. See my reply above N/T

[Prism]

15. Some, but really a small percentage

I know anecdotal evidence isn't data, but every person I've worked with on things like SSI has needed it.

In dozens of incidents, there was only one person where I was a bit, "Hmmm. . . " about his application (this was an individual who clearly didn't want to work). But, as far as I know, he didn't receive ultimate approval. Last I heard he was forced to get a job and was hating every second of it.

So, the system does have protections. It's really hard to get something like SSI. It's a whole bureaucratic adventure.

[valerief]

16. I wonder what they did with that money. Let it sit in an offshore account maybe?

Or did they circulate it to local businesses which provided jobs?

Give me these frauds any day over the fraudulent billionaires who buy Congress.

[randys1]

104. If I had a microphone i would give it to you so you could DROP IT

[we can do it]

131. Yes.

[Orrex]

198. Wow.

[MineralMan]

17. Of course there is. So, the answer is across the board cuts?

Really? That would be the same as firing all employees of a company because one unknown employee stole $100.

The solution is investigation and prosecution of those who commit fraud. It is never to assume that everyone getting benefits is a suspect.

[UglyGreed]

24. Extremes are not

needed, but we can not be blind to the fact. When I posted in the Kentucky thread I clearly stated that dropping 900 people because they had chosen the crooked lawyer was not acceptable. But I could not help seeing the similarities with that lawyer and the one that represented those people who are boasting about scamming the system here.

[Human101948]

39. You should go to the local media and see if you...

can get them to start a crusade against such scams.

[Starry Messenger]

18. About $3 billion in tax money has been lost due to

charter school fraud. Funny no one on the right screams about *that*

[CBGLuthier]

19. I take the same view with disability fraud that many have claimed for the justice system

Last edited Fri Jun 5, 2015, 02:02 PM - Edit history (1)

In justice I would rather 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man get found guilty and so with disability I would rather 100 people scam the system than one worthy person be denied. I do not think the country is going broke because of this.

[UglyGreed]

27. But the fraud hurts those

who are disabled, just like those who abuse drugs hurt those who suffer from chronic pain but no one seems to care about the latter. That is my point.

[jberryhill]

34. No one is arguing in favor of fraud

But you have not made out a cost/benefit case.

Let's look at a handy example.

Do you want non-citizens to be able to vote in US elections, or for people to register to vote multiple times in order to stuff ballot boxes?

Well, no, nobody wants that.

But that does not mean that additional "safeguards against voter fraud" have a desirable effect.

For example, in Texas, it is readily demonstrable that there are more eligible voters being disqualified by the various hoops and obstacles established by preventive measures against "voter fraud" than there have ever been instances of actual voter fraud.

That's called - Doing More Harm Than Good.

So, what would you like to do about fraud, and what is your estimate of the number of good faith applicants who will be denied, delayed or refused by the increased burden of qualifying over your anti-fraud measure.

Absent any quantitative analysis, what is it you would like to do?

You can do more harm than good by trying to be 100% fraud free - because that condition practically REQUIRES that an errors in the system will be on the side of disqualifying people who are not engaging in fraud.

[UglyGreed]

71. How about we take the profit for lawyers

out of the equation? If there is no profit then there is less of a chance of crooked lawyers to game the system. How about giving people a chance to recover and then if they can not still be eligible with their credits to apply? Corporations and greed of lawyers and doctors cause great harm to a system that is meant to help disabled people. Get a bad lawyer you are shit out luck. Get a doctor who is paid by the insurance company to say you are fine you are shit out of luck. Not being connected shit out of luck. There are many ways to stop greed and fraud in the system and allow people who fall through the cracks to have a chance to get the help they need.

[jberryhill]

73. I don't see any numbers

So "If there is no profit then there is less of a chance of crooked lawyers to game the system."


Which of the following statements do you believe true, and what facts support your belief:

1. Every lawyer representing a client who has been denied benefits is "gaming the system".

2. Most lawyers representing a client who has been denied benefits are "gaming the system".

3. Some lawyers representing a client who has been denied benefits are "gaming the system".

What is it, every one, most of them or some.

You believe that a person who is disabled and is either unable to navigate the system or adequately represent themselves should be denied a lawyer?

Or are you saying they shouldn't be able to go to court at all? Yeah, let's see the guy with a head injury who can't speak straight argue his case! Is that your idea of funny?

Oh, oh, oh, I know... since everybody works for free, then you'll have no problem donating your time to help out the ones who aren't "gaming the system". Is that it?

As much as right wingers and libertarians are upset that people are still able to assert their rights in court, and have the right to engage counsel to do so, I don't see your idea being implemented any too soon. But have hope. You guys might win someday, and we'll have no more pesky people who can't pay upfront doing things like having their rights protected.

[UglyGreed]

82. I feel

a system which people pay into themselves should not require a lawyer to get benefits they deserve if they are injured and become disabled. Right Wingers, Libertarians IMO would love to outsource the protection of the disabled to lawyers, insurance companies and such like it is now. But of course I'm a right winger who loves corporations, the MIC and any other meme du jour people have wrote in this thread because I recognize that people do indeed scam the system.

[jberryhill]

91. Guess what, disabled people have a right to be represented

Nothing REQUIRES a lawyer.

You know why a lawyer is helpful? Because the rules are really complex.

You know why the rules are really complex? Because some jackass somewhere thought a lot of rules were needed to keep people from "scamming the system"

[UglyGreed]

94. No some jackass decided

that lawyers should make money on people's hardships.......

[jberryhill]

98. And that doctors should make money from disease

And that cops should make money from crime.

Plumbers make money from people having to shit.

So, you tell me, how should lawyers make a living like anyone else does, by solving particular types of problems for people?

There is one - and only one - occupation in this country to which anyone has a Constitutional right to hire without paying them.

It sure as fuck isn't doctors.

If you are charged with a crime, you have a right to a lawyer.

If you get sick, you do not have a right to a doctor.

[hatrack]

83. Thank you!

[randys1]

106. Lawyers are the enemy of the right, until they need one

[giftedgirl77]

172. First off the lawyers are capped by Social Security on how

much they can actually make off a person's claim & secondly I had to get a lawyer after my first claim was denied & just based on my educational background & experience there was a time where I was actually able by law to assist people with their claims.

I am 100% totally & permanently disabled by both the VA & the US Army, I provided them all of my medical records & relevant supporting documentation yet they still denied me. I needed a lawyer period.

[UglyGreed]

175. They make money on case loads or

they would not be in the field. BTW you should not have to battle or pay someone for your benefits. There should be a fair and non-confrontational way to treat the disabled with compassion and respect.

[giftedgirl77]

178. I agree with the not battling part but with there being

issues of fraud I can understand scrutiny it's not confrontational it's red tape bullshit. You can't complain of fraud then wonder why they scrutinize everyone.

Hell my case should have been cut & dried but I got put through the ringer.

[UglyGreed]

181. Many people put through the ringer

and end up denied. God forbid you do not have a good lawyer or one who is too busy and slips up. It can cause a person a lifetime of financial suffering on top of their disability. Just because I speak out against fraud does not mean I want the system to be tossed. I want it to be stronger, less confrontational but also have access to retraining. Also some injuries compound over time yet the person may run out of credits and are married like in my case. Is it fair to punish someone because someone loves them? Is it fair to be stripped of any pride or hope to be at least helpful to the one who has stood by you? Then I hear others brag about gaming the system and I'm not allowed to be offended? This is why I find it hard to accept any fraud. Not Fox News or right wing talking points. But of course I'm call a liar and even my posts on chronic pain are used against me. Sorry for the long reply, I wish you the best of luck with your case.

[unapatriciated]

184. The answer is less red tape not more.

Last edited Sat Jun 6, 2015, 02:15 PM - Edit history (1)

I understand the marriage thing. My son was married for five years, his SSI was cut to two hundred a month because of his wife's income. She left him when he relapsed and it took a very long time and more reviews before it was increased to $650. You want to know why it's so low compared to what others receive? They said he shouldn't have received the monies while he was married so now part of his check goes to paying that money back. So did he commit fraud, no but they do a good job of collecting any monies paid in error or fraud. I can assure you that the two hundred a month did not even cover the cost of his monthly medication co-pays.

You are not hearing us. No we do not like fraud but it will always be there. Ever time someone starts screaming about waste and fraud in our social services, we end up with big cuts like the recent on in food stamps. Which means many who need the help now go without.

Those same politicians do little or nothing regarding fraud and waste in the corporate world since they benefit big time from that.

edited to clarify SSI not SSDI

[TexasBushwhacker]

196. Lawyers who represent the disabled

can only be paid a percentage of back disability payments. No back payments, no money goes to the lawyer. It's 25% of back payments and it's capped at $6000.

[UglyGreed]

200. Binder and Binder does make a tidy

some of money......

[TexasBushwhacker]

206. Considering the cap is only $6K

they are making their money on the volume of cases. Of course some cases they don't win. I had a friend with active Hepatitis C who needed to go through agressiive treatment. She had been working, but she had to take so many sick days and leave work early for doctor's appointments that she lost her job. She was turned down for SSDI twice! But Binder & Binder represented her at her hearing with a judge and she was finally approved.

[UglyGreed]

207. Yes volume

but lets not believe these guys are in for the good of the people. BTW I never stated that helping poor disabled people is bad and they should be turned to the streets to fend for themselves even though most in this thread want to believe that. Fraud is fraud and I do not think it should be given a pass, be it SS, WC or anyone or any company or whatever dares to commit any type fraud for monetary gain. See I believe your story because I have no reason to think you would lie but many people have called me liar because I dared to write about a couple of people I know that are committing fraud. I have nothing to gain from telling people what I see. It is just frustrating and disgusting to me that they have gotten away with it.

[kcr]

191. The overblown claims of fraud are what hurt the disabled

They don't get the help they need and get their claims repeatedly denied because there is no political will to do anything about it. Instead of perpetuating the myths, help shore up the political will to strengthen the safety net. No system can ever be perfect and fraud proof.

[blogslut]

21. So?

Find all the individual social services fraudsters, add up their ill-gotten gains and you'll likely end up with less then one percent of the monies that could be collected/saved if we properly enforced corporate tax law, quelled investment crime and ended war profiteering.

I'm sorry you're suffering but some mass government crackdown down on petty fraud won't help you one whit.

[me b zola]

23. Our culture is obsessed with punishment

...and making sure that no little person gets over on the system. So much so that we spend more money investigating and prosecuting small time fraud then we lose by fraudulent claims. Further more, the obsession with punishment makes it almost impossible for people who are entitled to benefits to actually receive them. Its practically impossible for a person suffering from major depression to navigate the obstacle course to receive benefits, and if they also are stricken with serious anxiety the fear of being accused of fraud is a game ender. Curling up in some gutter somewhere seems a better alternative than the humiliation, abuse, and threats of being accused of fraud when attempting to receive benefits that you are entitled to.

[L0oniX]

210. +1

The result is that people are forced to live in constant pain without any recourse ...all because of the small minority of abusers.

[PassingFair]

25. Republicans will never go after disability fraud.

Too many of their constituents collect it!

[daredtowork]

44. For two reasons

1) Destruction of welfare infrastructure leaves "disability" as the only regular income support for people who can't work. Increasing efforts have been made to include mental disability in this category in order to get homeless people off the street. Non-clinical mental disorders are not included, so don't listen when sleazy politicians start alluding to "back pain and depression".

2) Rural areas with jobs such as mining are causing people to physically break down earlier, and there are no alternative types of "desk" jobs for people to take in those areas. Medical care isn't strong and unionization has been breaking down as well. At the same time the age for Social Security has been going up. SSI has age tiers that make it practically impossible to get when you're younger, no matter how much pain and suffering you're going through, but then it becomes a pseudo-retirement program starting at age 60.

In other words, in rural areas people are run down by physically demanding jobs, and when they can't do that type of work anymore, they are routed through SSI - whereas in an urban area they might be able to do some sort of a desk job.

[PassingFair]

46. Of my relatives and acquaintances who are "conservatives"...

They complain about "welfare" but keep their mouths shut about disability because
they or someone in their immediate family are collecting it.

[daredtowork]

55. The #1 reason conservatives need to stop whining about welfare and just fix it

is that this is what their "immediate family" may need to live on for the 3 years they are waiting to process their SSI/SSDI claim.

And why the wait? All the hand-wringing about the non-issue of fraud.

Oops.

[KT2000]

28. you bet there is fraud

like when a large aerospace company started using new composite materials. It was a material to keep the plane from being detected by radar. Overtime was required of everyone on that line so it was 7 days a week. People were getting dizzy and disoriented, gloves melted when workers did some processes etc. Long story short - many developed neurological disorders combined with other serious health problems.

The first order of business was for the state to deny workers comp. for all in the group. Some needed canes to walk, some in wheelchairs, one killed herself, some were so mixed up they couldn't remember the names of their own children. Just when the state was about to relent - the then president of the American Council on Science and Health stepped in to "insist" they workers' illnesses not be recognized or compensated. It was rumored the aerospace company threatened to leave the state if workers were given workers comp. To them the most important thing was not recognizing that chemicals can cause brain injuries. It is called opening the flood gates.

These people were left with brain damage and no sources of income. Like everyone else, their SS disability was years before approval and they had to claim they were mentally ill. Meanwhile the company farmed out the work to smaller facilities in different cities so there would not be large groups of sickened people - easier to handle that way.

This happens all over this country and it is fraud. The people you listed were caught and there are mechanisms for doing that. For the fraud perpetrated by this company and the state - there is no mechanism. It is corporate power.

[UglyGreed]

31. I battled WC

in the early 90s and it was one of the reasons my credits ran out to collect SS. I was treated like a criminal just like I'm treated like a criminal for suffering chronic pain now 26 years later. Been there myself and that is why I find the fraud disgusting.

[valerief]

79. +1000

[yellowcanine]

29. And a lot of people denied who should be getting it. Which is worse?

I personally knew of a woman who was not capable of making a phone call on her own. Yet it took over a year for her to get disability. And she would not have gotten it at all without the intervention of a lot of people. There are lots of people out there who would be eligible if the process were just a bit more user friendly.

[UglyGreed]

32. Like myself

so I should not be upset with when those who are gaming the system get away with it?

[yellowcanine]

37. I find it easier to get upset about folks being denied.

And I think it is a bigger problem. Besides, you want to get upset about greedy people getting large sums of money from the government, check out defense contractors sometime. People scamming SSI are pikers compared to them.

[UglyGreed]

43. Why does

it need to be compared to other types of corruption? Corruption and fraud is corruption and fraud. Deflecting is not an answer just a cop out.

[yellowcanine]

58. Because the sums are relatively small and going after the pikers means that

it will harder for people who need SSI to make their case. No matter how many safeguards you install, there will be clever people who can outsmart them. But each time you install a safeguard, you make it a little harder for not so clever people who need the assistance to get it. OTOH, if you go after the big cheaters, there will be more total money for social programs, including SSI.

[DeadLetterOffice]

59. Very well put.

[daredtowork]

40. Those people didn't get away with it

The people who really gamed the system in your story were the bureaucrats who are pulling down big salaries and pensions because people like you insisted on creating hyper-bureaucracy around what is actually a pretty minor issue.

By the way, the people who make the most money out of SSI/SSDI-related fraud are DOCTORS.

[UglyGreed]

42. People like me ha

It does take all parties to pull off the fraud, doctors, lawyers corrupt judges and the people themselves.

[daredtowork]

50. Any of those parties can be investigated at any time

And they all eventually get caught. Nothing is frowned upon like "welfare" fraud (and that includes SSI/SSDI fraud) in this country.

Though I should mention that some of the cases you mentioned could also involve other forms of "disability": worker's comp, State disability programs, law enforcement usually has its own program, the VA has its program, private disability insurance riders...there are many meanings to "being on disability", and politicians often play on that ambiguity as well.

[UglyGreed]

52. After three years

investigations are ended and then the frauds are free to do what they please. This what the lawyer told the people I know. So they work, ride their Harleys and drink up a storm with no fear of being caught. It is what it is. I'm sorry if I find this unacceptable.

[daredtowork]

56. Wrong. NOW YOU ARE SPREADING FALSE INFORMATION.

The checks are EVERY THREE TO SEVEN YEARS, unless you enter the work program. And if your salary exceeds a certain amount in the work program, you eventually earn out of being on SSI. Even people in wheel chairs get regular reviews!

http://www.ssdrc.com/disabilityquestions4-7.html

[Lizzie Poppet]

60. The results are in:

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Jun 5, 2015, 11:12 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Counter with factual information, not with censorship.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Posts with incorrect information aren't hide-worthy. Just refute the false statements, ffs.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Discredit him in the thread, not by hiding his post.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: agree with the alerter. It would appear this poster would prefer to see 999 people do without rather than possibility of one (possibly) getting more than entitled too
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[daredtowork]

30. That proves the system works to CATCH fraud

D'oh.

Yet all this arm-waving and shouting about fraud endemic to the system just makes it harder and harder for the people who need help to get it, and it makes the system harder to use because it becomes loaded with bureaucracy. The system also becomes more expensive because the taxpayers are paying all those bureaucrats and investigators a ton more than the pathetic amount they are paying the people on SSI/SSDI.

But, guess what. Regular law enforcement would catch the occasional blatant case of criminal activity ANYWAY.

[UglyGreed]

33. Fraud makes harder for

those who have real needs. It makes the system treat everyone like a fraud, been there, still there and living it myself.

[daredtowork]

38. I call you on spreading Fox Talking Points

In every area of human activity you can cherrypick some people looking for ways to scam the system.

We have the police, the FBI, and other law enforcement systems to address those issues.

The Social Security system itself is very good about regularly checking to make sure people are qualified for benefits - which is part of how con artists get caught.

So all raising a big stink about "fraud" and/or "waste" in the system does is make it look like there is an unusual amount of fraud there (which there isn't) or that the fraud isn't being addressed (by the evidence of your own post, it is). The result of creating such stinks is a political demand to cut SSI/SSDI, to make SSI/SSDI even harder to get (lengthening wait times and often cutting off poorer people because of the level of difficulty), and to add more expensive bureaucracy to SSI/SSDI system.

Fox. Talking. Points.

[UglyGreed]

41. Yep easy to label me

when I have talked to these people and that bragged about how they won their claim. SMH

[daredtowork]

51. If they bragged they won their claim on false pretenses

chances are the law will eventually catch up with them.

[Hekate]

45. +1

[we can do it]

47. So. There is also bank fraud, pension and wage theft.

[UglyGreed]

49. Defection

it seems is the go to way to win an argument. As you can see deflection has been used many times in this thread.

[we can do it]

54. I have a disability. I am tired of being second guessed because of people like you.

Many people have disabilities that are not visible, but because a few people cheat they are questioned and given a hard time. Many people who deserve disability pay never get it.

[UglyGreed]

65. I have a disability also

and tired of those who dare to pretend that they are unable to work while I can not even walk without a tremendous amount of pain...... would you like to see my tons of tons of MRIs, brain scans, CAT scans, discograms, shunt series and what else I have laying around the house from the last 26 years or so?

[daredtowork]

84. This Post is Pure Schadenfreude

Since you're in pain - and you've made many posts before about how doctors won't prescribe the drugs you want and you were rejected for worker's comp - you think other people got away with something because they got SSI/SSDI. Some people who you judge to have been in less pain than you temporarily get awarded SSI/SSDI or some other disability program award (but got prosecuted for fraud later) - and just because they *attempted* the fraud, you resent them.

Let me take a wild guess. Did you recently consider applying for SSI/SSDI because of your pain, but you didn't get the support from your doctor and/or a lawyer? Therefore...everyone else who was able to get that support, and you judge to be in less pain than you is committing fraud.

Schadenfreude.

Please stop trying litter the Democratic platform with what should be GOP talking points just because you haven't figured out the proper way to document your situation yet. The entire reason it's so hard to get on SSI/SSDI is because of what posts like this have done to spread disinformation about the process and the fraud checks in place. Geez.

[UglyGreed]

97. Another attack

keep up the good work SMH

[daredtowork]

103. You've attacked everyone on SSI/SSDI here. Don't even try for sympathy. nt

[UglyGreed]

110. No I have not

attacked anyone here. You on the other hand have made personal attacks on my life and on my character. Very petty and you should hold yourself to a higher standard.

[daredtowork]

113. I'm proundly holding myself to the standard of Defender of the Truth. nt

[UglyGreed]

116. Yes like the truth

about my life and how doctors have denied me pain medication

[daredtowork]

121. Nothing to do with your lie about the Reviews or your anecdotal "evidence". nt

[UglyGreed]

124. Seven years

An Improvement likely diary indicates that Social Security will review your case at some point prior to three years. A medical Improvement possible diary indicates that Social Security will review your claim every three years or so. And a No improvement possible diary signifies that Social Security will review your claim every seven years or more

[daredtowork]

125. You think your friends on Harleys qualified for No Improvement Possible?

I know someone with advance muscular dystonia that doesn't even qualify for that.

I would say you're just full of sh*t, but I think the actual problem here is your "friends" (if they even exist) are not on SSI/SSDI. They are scamming worker's comp or some other program.

[UglyGreed]

128. Classy N/T

[unapatriciated]

180. My son has had no improvement in over 20 years.

Last edited Sat Jun 6, 2015, 02:14 PM - Edit history (1)

In fact he lost more muscle mass and range of motion, yet he is reviewed every 2-3 years. It took him two years to qualify for SSI, even with active disease. During every review he is treated like he trying to game the system all because he had the audacity to become ill when he was 13.

What you are failing to understand is that because of all the hype about fraud means more and more regulations are being implemented. This makes it very difficult for those in need to qualify and does little to prevent the minimal fraud that exists in our social programs.



edited to clarify SSI not SSDI

[UglyGreed]

102. BTW doctors

did prescribe me "drugs" and I made the choice to stop taking the "drugs" because other doctors used the "drugs" to avoid treating my on going problem with Hydrocephalus. I applied for SS in 1994 after trying to get better and trying to get retrained but my credits ran out. I also got married so I could not collect SSDI because my wife made too much money. BTW she has stayed by my side because I'm a honest caring person who would give someone the shirt off my back if needed. So your little story about my life is way off and I find your attacks pretty low.

[daredtowork]

109. I also have pain management issues because I can't take aspirin or nsaids

and I used to respond to your pain management posts with a great deal of sympathy.

But with this OP you've lost all my sympathy.

Just because you THINK someone else has gotten away with something is no reason to go around spreading anti-SSI propaganda at DU. This OP belongs in the GOP clown car. As we run up to the Primary season, it's important to reinforce decent policy points for a Democratic platform, not try to insinuate "welfare is full of waste and fraud" hyperbole that can only result in demands for cuts and increased red tape that will make life even worse the disabled people who are already suffering and living in poverty.

Just meditate for a minute and try to get it.

[UglyGreed]

115. I never wanted sympathy

for myself, I post so to try to end the stigma of chronic pain and pain medication for those who suffer. Just because you do not agree with what I have witnessed you choose to attack and use hyperbole to discredit what I have seen with my own eyes and have heard from the people who are gaming the system. Talk about using Fox News tactics.

[REP]

117. Your spouse's income does not affect your SSDisability

It would affect Supplemental Income, which is for people who do not have enough quarters to draw Disability, but for someone who does have enough quarters to qualify for Disability, spouse's income is not a factor.

[UglyGreed]

120. My credits ran out

I wrote that in the post you replied to.

[REP]

122. You also said your spouse's income affected your ability to collect Disability (SSDI)

not Supplemental Income (SI).

[UglyGreed]

123. Sorry I meant

both, my mistake.

[UglyGreed]

48. I find it very telling that

many will turn a blind eye to fraud because either they fear repercussions or feel that since it may be their side cheating we should tolerate such actions. SMH

[haele]

66. I beg to differ.

Many people think it's not a huge issue because for the most part, the people committing fraud eventually get caught.
Everyone I know on disability has to get reviewed to maintain their status after ten or fifteen years, and they don't get to choose the doctor that SSDI tells them to go to for the review. There are truly disabled people who get thrown off SSDI because the SSDI doctors are often encouraged to find some reason to kick them off - especially those with mental illnesses or with chronic pain.

Your "friends" run a 75% chance of getting caught sometime within the next 7 years - if not sooner, if they are committing fraud. Their lawyer might have cherry-picked the doctor, but Social Security won't.

In the meantime, people are using the "fraudulent claims getting caught" numbers to say that there's this hu-u-uge problem - because bad people are getting taxpayer money.

Yes, I am saddened and disgusted when individuals scam safety net system. But I'm not up in arms, because from what I know, the chances of continuing the scam are against them, and most scammers end up either in jail or having to pay their money back.
There is an incentive for an enforcement mechanism when it comes to maintaining SSDI (and Worker's Compensation) compliance; mainly that in a corporatist culture, poor folks are disposable scum, and that there's a corporatist media meme that has invaded our collective morality in which "taxpayer money should never be used on the unworthy".

Frankly, the majority of healthy people in the US would rather a hundred disabled people suffer and enter into an third-world quality of life, then let one or two "perfectly healthy" assholes like your friends get an extra $1K a month.

The interesting point to consider is that most of those very same people have absolutely no problem with petty income tax fraud and will willingly work under the table for a little extra spending cash.

We used to live next-door a really rockin' bartender/DJ who told us about making a good additional $500 - $2000 a month in private parties and cash tips that he never claimed on his taxes. Was ahead on his mortgage, had just remodeled his cozy little bungalow house, had a nice late model SUV for his gear, a Ski-Jet and took off half the winter to go Snow-boarding at high-end resorts. Always had the most beautifully cut hair and a great manicure.
We watched his dog when he was out having his fun or spending a week or so on the underground party circuit.
Claimed he cleared over $150K one year as a private DJ under the table, while his W-2s and 1199's only showed around $40K in tips and wages for the year between his bartending job and official catering contracts.
That's about what - $5 - $6K in Federal Tax revenue he cheated the IRS out of, and around $1200 in revenue that he cheated the state of California out of that year? $3K to Social Security? $700 to Medicare?

If I did the accounting, and considering multiplicative property of revenue, he probably actually cheated the federal government out of a year's payment of benefits to one actual SSDI recipient. Heck, he probably could have paid the equivalent of entire year's worth of fraudulent claim payments to one of your construction worker friends if he had paid taxes on that under the table money.

Under the Table tax fraud is the sort of fraud is far more endemic than SSDI and/or Worker's Comp fraud. But no congress-critter is talking about increasing taxes or IRS enforcement processes to catch tax cheats.

To get uproariously outraged about an individual scamming the system, vice a corporation (i.e., a legal practice, insurance companies, or companies that lie to the Worker's Comp system) smacks of the outrage over the few "Trading Food Stamps for drugs and alcohol" fraud cases as an excuse to gut Food Stamps and SNAP programs.

Haele

[UglyGreed]

68. Guess they are in the 25%

they have been collecting since the late 90s so I doubt the next seven years are going to make or break them. Fraud is fraud and it is worse in my eyes to pretend to be disabled when you are healthy.

[haele]

77. Are they on SSDI or Worker's Compensation Disability?

I'm curious.

These are two different animals, and if you're collecting Worker's Comp, the enforcement mechanism is different across the states. Some states don't even check; they leave it up to a snitch or the employer of the worker who claimed the disability to make a case for fraud.
I suspect if they've been able to continue to collect since the 1990's,
1) either both of them were far worse off back in the early 2000's when they went through a review (the Bush years were brutal on SSDI),and through diet, exercise, and "clean living", may have made enough of a recovery that it's just fun money at this point in time (so when they come up for their 20 year review, they'll be audited, kicked off, and charged for "back payments", or
2) they're on Worker's Compensation, and y'all are in a state that doesn't enforce Worker's Compensation fraud once it's awarded.

Now, If they were collecting a pension-based disability (VA, Railroad Workers, or some other Union-based), then they may appear to be committing fraud or may be joking about it, but they aren't committing fraud because that disability is a benefit based on their being able to work at a career and still be able to perform all the tasking (physical or mental) that would a typical employment path until they got to the age of retirement.
As part of a pension-based disability benefit, it is not legally considered fraud to be "medically released" from a career in which you and the employer made an investment, get a disability compensation due to that injury or condition, and then begin a new job in another field.

Even though it may look like fraud, and frost the hell out of people who are still hanging on through stress and pain because they don't think they're bad off enough to need to go on Worker's Comp or SSDI.

I'm actually trying to discuss this seriously, even though I do understand you feel personally insulted by these scammers and fraudsters.

I'm not, because I've seen a lot of different sides to this, and frankly, assholes like this would cause more damage through screwing their employers and f'ing up a work environment - potentially causing injury to their fellow workers and ruining legitimate jobs as being a worse impact to my world than any affront they could give me. They're a petty distraction from the very real goal of helping people who are really hurting in the grand scheme of things. They're nothing but the scummy sea-foam that comes in on the waves of the ocean.

My opinion - If they're that venal and potentially destructive, pay them a little bit of money to free-ride off of so that they will just go away. It's less damage to a community and better people who want to do work and pay their dues.

Haele

[UglyGreed]

80. Yes they are

please I have talked to these people and know what they are doing. I grew up with them.

[haele]

85. SSDI or Worker's Compensation?

Yes, they're assholes. Yes, they're venal and corrupt. Yes, I'm sorry you had to grow up with them, I know that type.

Which system are they committing fraud on?
This would make it far more clear where the weakness in the system comes from. Worker's Compensation is far easier to commit fraud on, and carries a higher percentage.

I do know for a fact the local SSDI office will make an attempt to check their status at least every 10 years.
Over the last 25 years, my second cousin, who got onto SSDI when she was in her thirties because of internal injury problems due to pregnancy complications (she can work a little, but she can't make over $600 a month), has set aside three one-month blocks where she can expect her letter from the Social Security office to fill out her forms and come in for a check-up, and had been pretty accurate - within two months - on the last two audits. Her next audit is expected to be in 3 years, when she turns 66.
And she's moved twice during that time; from Los Angeles, to Honolulu, to Las Vegas. They still catch up with her, and they still audit her claim.

She's considering taking early Social Security, but she doesn't have enough quarters on the books to get a full payment until she's 70, and her husband still thinks he is going to be working into his 70's before he retires, so she'll just go ahead with the next SSDI audit.

Haele

[daredtowork]

86. Am I the only one who officially disbelieves this claim? nt

[REP]

119. Nope.

[Starry Messenger]

163. Nope.

[daredtowork]

78. I'm curious about this lawyer

While I actually don't believe a thing UglyGreed says anymore because of the lie about "getting away with it after 3 years", this did make me wonder about those "Disability Lawyers" you sometimes see on TV. I wonder if some of them are con artists who tell people they won't be reviewed after 3 years when they actually will be...?

[DeadLetterOffice]

159. My f-i-l was a disability lawyer

He worked mostly for people trying to get SSI and SSD. He was amazing, and did awesome things for some really screwed-over people.

I'm sure not all disability lawyers are like him, but I also suspect he wasn't the only good guy out there.

[My Good Babushka]

201. And many people

if you asked them should we hire more watchdogs and social services administrators to oversee the programs and make sure they are running in the best and most efficient way possible would say "yes". We are not the "shrink government" side.

[ruffburr]

61. If you call-

The few million lost to disability fraud a massive problem what might you call the billions in tax fraud perpetrated by multi national corporations and dishonest politicians taking payoffs? Sheeses h christ,

[UglyGreed]

63. you are the hundredth person

to use deflection as an answer to the problem sheeses indeed!!!

[ruffburr]

141. what-

Deflection my ARSS, let's worry about the big crooks who are destroying the country before some fraud being perpetrated by small time con artists, It seems you are just trying to push a hate meme on the people who are receiving disability , 99% of whom are absolutely in need and deal with enough stigmatization, Get a life!

[UglyGreed]

142. Lawyers and doctors

are small time indeed.

[DustyJoe]

62. Plenty of Fraud

I have no experience in SSI/SSDI claim fraud, but VA disability fraud is rampant. The golden goose has and still is a PTSD claim. I have been in many VA health facilities in the last 20 years and the ease of obtaining a 100% rating for this hard to disprove malady, the public support for anything military and the hero worship status now accorded everyone in uniform has changed the VA disability system into a cakewalk.
-NBC News Snip*-

Moved by a huge tide of troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan with post-traumatic stress, Congress has pressured the Department of Veterans Affairs to settle their disability claims — quickly, humanely, and mostly in the vets' favor.
The problem: The system is dysfunctional, an open invitation to fraud. And the VA has proposed changes that could make deception even easier.
PTSD's real but invisible scars can mark clerks and cooks just as easily as they can infantrymen fighting a faceless enemy in these wars without front lines. The VA is seeking to ease the burden of proof to ensure that their claims are processed swiftly.
But at the same time, some undeserving vets have learned how to game the system, profitably working the levers of sympathy for the wounded and obligation to the troops, and exploiting the sheer difficulty of nailing a surefire diagnosis of a condition that is notoriously hard to define.

Just a tip of the iceberg according to the full article.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/36852985/ns/health-mental_health/t/tide-new-ptsd-cases-raises-fears-fraud/#.VXHl8yrK1OY

What is sad is the wait times and delays that truly disabled vets go through as much time is wasted on the fakers claims and medical tests affects all vets.

[daredtowork]

64. VA Disability isn't SSI/SSDI Disability

The VA system has many problems, and I won't venture to opine on their disability system.

But it does irritate me how politicians jumble a lot of disability systems (including worker's comp, State disability, etc...) in with SSI/SSDI when they talk about waste and fraud in "the system" - as if it is one unified system. Local, State, and Federal systems are all very different things! The VA and Social Security systems are very different things!

Making things harder on SSI applicants, who only have welfare to fall back on while they wait for the wheels of bureaucracy to grind, does not help solve the VA problems! Only reforming the VA solves the VA problems! Yet by sweeping the VA problems into "disability", political grandstanders can reap all sorts of harm!

[DustyJoe]

67. apples/oranges

Yes I am aware of the differences.

But both systems suffer the effects of fraudulent claims.
Thus the response to the Fraud thread regardless of the entity/agency that handles the claim.

The one thing that unifies any benefit for cause-and-effect claims like disability of any
type is the ones gaming the system.

Obtaining any cash benefits by lying and false claims is theft.

[daredtowork]

74. SSI/SSDI is INCREDIBLY HARD TO GET

And as a result, suffers very few fraudulent claims. And, as the OP shows, problematic claims are investigated. There are regular checks.

When there is a suspicious attorney or doctor, they are investigated - to the detriment of patients they handled (as the Kentucky case shows).

So cherrypicking OPs like this and regular invocations of how there is "fraud" in the system seem to have the ulterior motive of adding yet more bureaucratic red tape where none is needed or cutting the aid where that aid is desperately needed - and, indeed, should be expanded and raised because of the damage done by all the previous "hawks".

The ridiculous LIE UglyGreed told above about how people "he knows" on SSI get away with fraud after 3 years and then go drink beer and ride Harleys (doesn't that sound like the average "welfare fraud" astroturf comment?) just shows the agenda of this OP. Why does he feel so strongly about conveying the fraud in the system that he even has to lie about it?

Because he's trying to plant the idea in DU - inject a Republican talking point into the Democratic platform - that SSI/SSDI is full of "fraud and waste" and thus needs to be cut. Some news special did a special a while back presenting SSI/SSDI as an alternative form of "welfare", attempting to represent this as an "entitlement" that is available to be cut by grandstanding politicians.

Again I ask: WTF ARE PEOPLE ON DU DOING CARRYING WATER FOR FOX NEWS TALKING HEADS???!!!!

[DustyJoe]

87. just needs oversight

that SSI/SSDI is full of "fraud and waste" and thus needs to be cut

This I don't see in any of the responses. If anything a need for more oversight of all disability benefit systems to weed out fraud. Eliminating fraud is not 'cutting' benefits for all disabled, but actually extends the life of the program. Myself being a disability benefit recipient has never had any problem providing proof annualy of disabling conditions and I venture to guess other disabled don't either.

[daredtowork]

88. No, you need to educate yourself: there is a TON OF OVERSIGHT

There is way too much oversight of SSI/SSDI. That's why it takes 3 years to get. That's why it's on the patient to collect a ton of documentation, and you almost always need a lawyer to get it. That's why Social Security auto-rejects the majority of the first 2 claims and forces people to go through the appeals process. That's why both the patient's doctors and social security doctors are involved in this process. That's why there are regular reviews, even for people in wheel chairs and with terminal diseases.

Very little of this is actually necessary for "eliminating" fraud. A lot of the fraud is screened out just by the process of medical qualifications and reviews. The process of investigating the major fraudsters (the doctors and lawyers) is handled by the police and the FBI: the people who benefited from their frauds can be traced from those cases.

So all this hand-waving does is just add BUREAUCRATIC FAT onto the process. This means red-tape for the people applying: they have to wait longer, and they have to give up part of their benefits to the lawyers they inevitably have to hire. This means more cost to the taxpayer in supporting the bureaucracy. A more expensive bureaucracy means a greater threat to the program, because politicians will look askance at how much it costs to run - even though very little of that money is making it's way to the disabled people who need it! The money is actually going to pay the bureaucrats!

What would extend the life of the program is educating people about it raising confidence about how it works!

Also, if people are grumbling that SSI is being used as "stealth welfare", then maybe we ought to fix welfare!!!

[DustyJoe]

197. hard to get

There is way too much oversight of SSI/SSDI. That's why it takes 3 years to get.

Believe me, talk to any vet trying to obtain VA disability and you will hear about the same 3-5 year wait, appeals and headaches getting the benefit. I can attest to applying for benefits in 1997 just to get a re-evaluation for a higher percentage due to deteriorating conditions from existing already rated bullet, shrapnel and blast injuries. Took till 2000 a full 3 years to get a 20% bump up.

SSI/SSDI to my knowledge does not rate each and every condition with a percentage of disability to determine benefit amounts like the VA does. SS gives you a fixed amount whether disability due to obesity or amputated limbs.

Case and point, a 20% VA rating for muscle damage from shrapnel in the chest that shreds 25% of the pectoral muscle, but no rating for the long term breathing problems/pain from the torn pleural lining, lung tissue damage or the chunks of metal left in the lung. At least SS it's an all or nothing instead of the piecemeal percentages that have to be fought for over and over.

I agree it shouldn't be the battle that it is, but then the entire SS appeal lawyer industry would fold up if they actually made it make sense.

[daredtowork]

199. They fact there is an SS appeal lawyer industry is a sign of the problem

The waste in the system is all that money that should be for disabled people that is now going into paying for lawyers.

Regarding the VA - there's another person in this thread (or perhaps the other OP - I don't have time to hunt it down), who makes the same sort of "fraud and waste" argument. His argument is it's "easy" for people to claim PTSD and instantly get on VA disability.

Does obesity count toward disability for the VA? It's not a disability for SSI/SSDI.

That percentage thing is weird and probably causes a lot of paperwork. But this relates to the difficulty that most people filling out SSI paperwork for themselves have, and which causes their case to go to appeal: the part where they have to vouch they are 100% unable to work. What does that mean? At anything? At any time? What about the length of time it takes you to do? There are a thousand caveats. A percentage system might be helpful.

Better yet would be to lower the stakes and allow people to easily go on to SSI, and to easily slide off if their condition improved.

The system we have now sucks.

[TexasBushwhacker]

208. Yes, but

If you are rated as 50% disabled through the VA, don't you get your disability payments even if you work? It's my understanding that John McCain was rated 100% disabled when he returned from Vietnam. I don't question that. What I do question is that he gets over $50K a year for his disability, even though he is gainfully employed as a senator. With SSDI, if you make over $1100 a month, your disability payments stop. With SSI, you can earn a little, but past a certain point your benefit is reduced 50 cents for every dollar of income.

[haele]

70. Difference between Disability Insurance and Retirement Disability

VA Disability is not Disability Insurance.

While the taxpayer still pays for it, it's considered an contractual earned benefit that assumes that the Military was going to be a career and compensates for that work-related injury or condition that would keep you from being able to complete that career. Much like the disability benefits that most police and firefighters have, it's not that they can't work, it's that they can't continue the career that time, money, and training had been spent on. The Soldier/Sailor/Airman/Marine, the railroad engineer, the police officer, or the fireman can still work. They aren't going to get their disability downgraded if they do a physical labor job.

SSDI or Worker's Compensation are "after the fact/can't do meaningful work again" Insurance policies to cover people who don't have a pension or earned benefit that covers job-related injuries or health conditions, and would otherwise beggar family and friends who are willing to care for them, end up becoming an additional burden on local social services, or die homeless in the street because they can't hold down any sort of living wage work for any length of time due to their health or mental state.
Of course, they have to continuously prove that they can't hold down a job to continue getting these benefits - especially difficult for those who are fragile when it comes to either physical or mental health.

Because no one likes an undeserving "moocher"...

Haele

[giftedgirl77]

174. I will tell you without a doubt some Soldiers are gaming

the system but as someone who just went through the Medical Board process as an active duty Soldier (they do both our military & VA ratings at the same time) it is a fight in itself to even get the doctor's to write down & admit the diagnosis' that were given by the outside doctors they are required to use.

I do have a 100% rating from both the VA & the Army but I had to fight for it & call the doctors out on their bullshit constantly.

[daredtowork]

69. Instead of Carrying Water for Fox News Shouldn't We Be Arguing for Mincome?

If we had the "Mincome", there wouldn't be all this petty fear-mongering over "fraud" and "waste" among people who went through 3 years of bureaucratic and medical qualification for less than $900/month to live on - because that's the only way they could survive.

If we had the Mincome, there would be no more issue about means-testing for seniors or raising the retirement age. People would retire when they felt ready to retire.

If we had the Mincome, there would be no more "welfare" and no more stigma attached to interaction with poverty bureaucracies.

If we had the Mincome, the taxpayer would be saving a HELLUVA a lot of money on poverty, social regulation, and fraud investigation bureaucracies. In fact the biggest opposition may come from people who would lose their fat incomes and pensions in this sector. The Mincome would be a lot less than the standard bureaucratic income. It might take a while for Americans to switch over to building their own businesses on top of the Mincome. Or perhaps we could, as a society, decide we wanted our Federal Government to create institutions out than Poverty Bureaucracies. Anyone remember the National Endowment for the Arts? We could just shift the money/jobs elsewhere.

If we had the Mincome, people would have autonomy and choice in an era of rapid technology change. People would be able to maintain their housing while they sought re-education.

If we had the Mincome, a broader base of people would have money to spend within their local economies: money would be circulating rather than just be an abstract idea sitting in the Swiss bank accounts of the Super Rich.

Leave it to the GOP Clown Car to play Judge Judy on Fox News. Democrats should be about offering real solutions for real problems. Bring on the Mincome.

[UglyGreed]

72. Your Fox news

slander is getting old.

[daredtowork]

75. Have you apologized for your lie yet?

Here again is the information on the regular checks done by SSI/SSDI. Even people with dire and terminal conditions are subjected to them:

http://www.ssdrc.com/disabilityquestions4-7.html

[UglyGreed]

92. My lies?

And a No improvement possible diary signifies that Social Security will review your claim every seven years or more........ key words or MORE. So if someone claims that their condition has not improved they go on riding Harleys and working for at least seven more years. BTW they are not investigated they are called in to be interviewed and/or use the same doctor who started the claim, (nod nod wink wink say no more) and since they have lied before they will lie again. Lawyers and doctors would not be involved if there was not money to be made in this type of fraud. SMH

[daredtowork]

100. You're reading that wrong

My understanding is the average time for a review is THREE years. The "claim" someone makes has to be supported by the doctor's review: and the doctor's interest is in getting people off of SSI. Doctor's can be sued for fraud and malpractice.

The lawyer gets paid a percentage of the original SSI claim during the wait - a pathetic amount. I doubt they are around for the check. The doctors mainly make money by seeing injured patients: I don't see how they would "get paid" in the SSI scenario. Perhaps you are thinking of Worker's Comp?

[UglyGreed]

107. Read the document

Reviews are not going to catch anyone scamming the system. The people I know were sent to a certain doctor which was given to them by their lawyer. Just like some doctors illegally supply pain medication some doctors scam SS. It's all about greed and the all mighty dollar.

[daredtowork]

112. I'm IN this system

I'm an expert on this system.

Whatever you're talking about, it wasn't SSI/SSDI.

[unapatriciated]

183. You are right

Last edited Sat Jun 6, 2015, 02:17 PM - Edit history (1)

My son has a review every two to three years and his health has declined since he first qualified for SSI.



edited to clarify SSI not SSDI

[Kalidurga]

167. and your slip is showing

[UglyGreed]

169. oops

pardon me.

[Kalidurga]

171. I will not

you will have to redeem yourself.

[UglyGreed]

177. I did not think

you would. I doubt there is any way I could redeem myself in the eyes of many here. I've been called a liar a right winger and other things I can not recall at this time.

[Kalidurga]

185. It's only because

you have been rude to several people, use RW talking points, and your story sounds incredulous. But, your good right?

[Texasgal]

76. Why would you think

that people on DU do not believe in fraud?

[daredtowork]

81. This OP might have been aimed at me

Because I've remarked (in disgust) several times that there are certain people on DU that perpetuate Fox Talking Points about SSI/SSDI being full of fraud. IMHO, this is not a viewpoint that should even be within the Democrat framework. If you do share that viewpoint, I hope you will actively educate yourself on why this is just collective paranoia about someone else "getting away with something" and the horrific situation it puts people with disabilities through.

Ironically, UglyGreed was not the Fox News Recycler I've had in mind when griping about this, but now I know where stands, too. The strangest part of this is it sounds like his schadenfreude stems from an old Worker's Comp rejection, not even SSI/SSDI.

[UglyGreed]

96. Now I'm attacking you

when this OP was a direct result of me being attacked in the Kentucky thread for god forbid I mentioned that I do know some people who have scammed the system using a lawyer who reminded me of the one in Kentucky. If you recall I have stuck up for you in the past but of course now I am attacking you. You have attacked me a number of times in this thread yet I never returned the favor. Give me a break.

[sendero]

89. There is fraud in every program where money is involved..

... and the correct response is to find it and punish the perpetrators. The correct response is not to blame the program. Unless the program makes fraud easy which for SSI I can assure you it does not.

[B Calm]

90. You want fraud look no further than the corporations with offshore addresses or

the rich assholes with bank accounts in the Cayman Islands.

[csziggy]

95. Using a few anecdotes about disability fraud to cut off hundreds is absurd

THAT is what the outrage here on DU is about - a few case stories showing that there is some fraud was used as an excuse to cut 900 people's disability payments off.

If we're going to use that criteria for punishing people, then the known cases of baking and mortgage fraud would be justification for nationalizing every bank in the country. The few service people involved in the torture at Abu Gharib would be justification for giving every person in the armed forces a dishonorable discharge. We know of some crooked politicians - let's impeach every politician RIGHT FUCKING NOW.
in case you don't get it.

With this attitude, we don't need any investigation or review of suspected wrong doing - just punish an entire category of people for the misdeeds of a few.
By the way, since you say you know of two specific cases of disability fraud - have you turned them into to the authorities? If not, why not? You say "people like myself suffer the most from these frauds" so you should be anxious to make sure every case of fraud you personally know about is prosecuted.

[One_Life_To_Give]

99. A proper system must have a small percentage of Fraud

The question should be not is there Fraud, but is the level of Fraud appropriate for a properly working system.

As you tighten or relax controls/enforcement you affect not only the number of Fraud recipients but also the number of Deserving recipients. So if the system add's 100 new recipients 1 might be fraudulent and 99 are deserving. Continuing to the point where 25 out of every 100 new recipients is fraudulent is too high, but eliminating 999 deserving recipients to remove 1 fraud case is too extreme as well. We need to find a balance where most of the money in the program ends up in the hands of deserving people, and that they are not unduly burdened trying to demonstrate their honest need, while making the Fraud level as low as practical. Not easy but nothing worthwhile ever is.

[UglyGreed]

129. Thank you for

your post, hard to see a reasonable response through all the mud slinging and personal attacks.

[unapatriciated]

186. Yes it is reasonable because

he makes the very point that many of us have been trying to get you to understand. Yes there is fraud in our social programs but it is minimal thus making it manageable. Your post shows that the majority were WC cases and they were all detected, very few were SSI or SDI and those too were detected.

I'm sorry you are having a difficult time qualifying, the majority who applied also had a difficult time qualifying. They also lost benefits when they married. Those are the rules and just because a few actually game the system doesn't mean we need more rules.

[onecaliberal]

105. So just because a few idiots commit fraud

We should punish the many who legitimately need and rely on the program.

The poster must be a troll. What the hell is happening here lately?

[Lady Freedom Returns]

148. Wish I could answer you.

So many are pointing out the little things that are wrong with much needed programs and nothing about the good and the need for them. Far to many pro Conservative statements as of late.

[edhopper]

111. I was going to post several articles

showing how small a problem this is and how disability insurance fraud is one of the lowest percentage frauds of any type of insurance.
That the awareness comes from industry shills in the media trying to cast people on disabilities as criminals.
And the real fraud in disability is the companies that conspire to deny disability to those in need.

But it seems almost everybody on DU is wise to this type of pro-business bullshit.

[daredtowork]

118. Please post anyway if they are handy

I'd love to be able to slam down some statistics in these types of threads.

UglyGreed is not the only one who feels compelled to push the "fraud and waste" propaganda on behalf of Fox News.

[edhopper]

190. Here are a few

maybe UG will read them and not just go by "a few people he knows."

http://mediamatters.org/research/2013/06/28/right-wing-media-miss-the-facts-on-disability-f/194669

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/10/16/2787821/facts-disability-insurance/

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-budget/195559-social-secuity-disability-fraud-is-rare

[daredtowork]

194. Thanks - bookmarking for future use! nt

[UglyGreed]

126. Well all I did was

tell a story of what two people I personally know who have admitted to such fraud. Are they included in the percentages? No of course not since they have been successful. So tell me how accurate is the data in your stories if some people get away with this type of scam? We have the case in Kentucky which a lawyer and a judge was caught scamming the system and in the end people who were on disability were punished who may of not been doing anything wrong. Fraud hurts people with disables it does not help them.

[onecaliberal]

144. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable with your "own"

[UglyGreed]

166. Yes but

Liberal Democratic Socialists who are not afraid to speak their mind are hard to come by.

[randys1]

127. It is a fraction of the costs, and my question is always the following:

"OK, there is fraud. The only certain way to end all fraud is to end the program. So please tell me, what is your plan?"


The simple fact is the Koch Bros, faux news and their idiot followers do want to end all of the programs.






Until



they


need it

[Thinkingabout]

130. Yes, there is fraud in the SSDI, it has been documented. It does not mean the

SSDI is a bad program but there is fraud. Those who commit fraud should be punished. I read here this week where the SSDI payments are going to be held up in Kentucky especially where the attorney Conn was involved. It will be very bad for legitimate claim people. This is who gets hurt.

[UglyGreed]

132. I never said it is a bad program

and just because I recognize the fraud and have witnessed such fraud does not give anyone the right to call me a liar. Fraud has hurt those in Kentucky and fraud should never be tolerated that is my point.

[Thinkingabout]

134. I did not call you a liar.

Last edited Fri Jun 5, 2015, 06:08 PM - Edit history (1)

[UglyGreed]

135. Oh well

then my mistake.

[Avalux]

136. What exactly would you like to be done about it?

How widespread is it? Does it warrant a change to the program? Were you directly disadvantaged due to disability fraud?

There isn't one program that doesn't have instances of fraud. Maybe if we had a congress willing to bolster this very necessary government program, they could catch cases like these sooner.

[madokie]

137. Sure there is but not like 60 minutes portrayed it to be

60 minutes too a lot of liberty with the truth in making that segment.
For the record there is fraud in most all social programs and always have been and always will be but you don't throw out the baby with the bath water though. 60 minutes is but a shell of what they once were.

[UglyGreed]

138. I am going by what I have seen

and heard from two people that I know who are scamming the system. The reason for this post was because what happened in Kentucky is almost the exact same setup these two people have told me. So IMO it must not be an isolated situation and perhaps bigger than we realize. I know people do not believe what I wrote and I can not change that but there is no need to attack someone in the way that I have been. I will not stand by and have my character attack without defending myself.

[madokie]

143. Sorry but i'm not attacking you

nor will I be. I'm simply stating fact that has nothing to do with you.
Facts that I have been well aware of for years.

Peace

In my own becoming disabled my VA doctor told me that I might as well apply for Disability as I won't be going back to work as a construction worker no matter what and I was approved within 3 months. This was 10 years ago. I'm 67 now.

[UglyGreed]

147. I know you are not attacking me

thank you. Fraud upsets me and I can't help my feelings. It not fueled by propaganda nor Fox News. It's knowing that some are lacking morals to stoop so low, be it lawyers, doctors and even those who pretend to be ill. Do I want disability to end? Of course not but I also must be true to my own feelings on the subject.

[Duppers]

139. My brother's m.i.l. is one too.

Sorry to say. But these fraudulent people do not represent the vast majority of folks who truly need help.

[UglyGreed]

140. Takes guts to reply to this thread

honestly. I understand what you are saying.

[onecaliberal]

145. Not as much guts as it takes to out yourself by posting this thread.

[Duppers]

153. Jeepers. Read my replies.

[onecaliberal]

156. The reply wasn't to you Duppers

[UglyGreed]

154. outing myself as a person

who is disabled and does not like people who pretend to be for monetary gain, so be it.

[onecaliberal]

157. Outing yourself as a person who is on a Democratic Blog spouting Faux Talking points.

My son was born disabled, even though SSI knows that, has acknowledged that, we still have to take the time to be re-evaluated every year. They know he isn't going to get well from his cognitive disability. People don't get in these programs willy nilly, I will not let you suggest there is massive fraud and we should scrap the whole program because of it. Maybe you should report your so called acquaintances to the authorities instead of posting about it online.

Your talking points are as republican as it comes, I will call you out on it every time, I don't care if you like it.

[UglyGreed]

158. Again with the Fox News BS

You can call me names and label me as you like. It just proves that you are just like what you pretend to hate. If you can not see that I can't help you.

[onecaliberal]

160. If the shoe fits, wear it. When you come in here spouting faux talking points you are going to be

called out on them. It's not a personal attack. If you can't tell the difference, that is out of my control. Now if you'll excuse me, do enjoy the dust bin...

[UglyGreed]

162. So very liberal of you

thank you for your replies

[My Good Babushka]

202. You yourself just posted about "invisible illness"

Pretending to be ill is a mental illness in itself. Going through the massive amount of hoops put in place to dissuade people from getting disability is more work than a regular job. How do you know that these "fraudsters" just don't feel like discussing their illnesses with you? A lot of people don't know how to put into words that they are hopelessly depressed, sometimes they act the opposite way to overcompensate. They are not required to justify their illness to you.

[UglyGreed]

203. And you have

no idea what type of people I am referring to. These people claim to have severe back injuries yet have worked construction days after filing their claims and continue to do so many years after the injury. I even know their employers yet you know better than I. If it walks like a duck........

[My Good Babushka]

205. So then report it.

http://oig.ssa.gov/report-fraud-waste-or-abuse/fraud-waste-and-abuse
That's the proper way to address fraud.

[UglyGreed]

204. Oh and let me add

that I suffer from severe back/neck problems with more than enough documentation to kill a horse yet my problem is often dismissed by doctors and such for this reason. If people fake cancer they are looked upon as assholes, I feel the same disgust when people use my affliction as ticket for monetary gain.

[Duppers]

146. I agree with posters on this thread.

But in truth, there are frauds and pointing that outmakes us sound like trolling wingers!!

Considering the big picture, adding up these minor frauds, even collectively, pales in comparison to corporate frauds.

I rather be exposing those major corporate frauds, especially the MIC that Eisenhower warned about decades ago. Those are the truly evil frauds who are really draining this country in every sense of the word.

Look at the costs of the F-35 planes. Cannot fly in thunderstorms! You bet Pentagon kickbacks are involved.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

149. +1

[UglyGreed]

150. I understand but at least

you did not make it personal and I respect that. Believe me I know there are bigger fish to fry but I when I come across a post I disagree with I keep it civil and do not attack the person. If I can not do that I have learned to walk away and regroup.

[Duppers]

165. I've read some of your other posts.

And those posts have given me a bigger picture of who you are.

You hate thieves everywhere and see those people as taking food and help from the people who need it. As someone pointed out in this thread, wingers don't want to prosecute, the assholes want to close the programs! I don't think that's your intention here.

My logic-challenged, low-info brother votes for the rethugs every time...and sites his m.i.l. as one of his reasons. I've had such heated arguments with him that we stopped speaking for 11 yrs. No Christmas contact either. I think his bypass caused brain damage. That and the fact he has huge emotionally issues which predispose him to love the koolaide.

So, what to do? Keep fighting for the underdogs and exposing dishonesty everywhere.

Sorry for rambling.

[UglyGreed]

168. Thank you for

taking the time to read my posts. My family and I have been hurt by many dishonest people in our lives, mostly family and I tend to have a great disgust for those who choose to defraud people. Believe me it would be much easier for me to keep my mouth shut and just go with the flow but then I would be a fraud myself.

[Brickbat]

164. So what?

[spanone]

173. humans are easily corrupted... so?

that doesn't negate the need

[bluestateguy]

179. I will never doubt that fraud in that, and other, programs exist

Disability, welfare, food stamps or special tax breaks for business and industry. There will always be a little fraud. You won't ever be able to root it all out.

There will always be a little fraud in contrast with the many, many more people who are using the program fairly and legitimately under the law.

So what do you do about it? If you find people defrauding a government program, then by all means, kick em off and hold them accountable. Sure, you want to stop the fraud before it happens, and you can create a level of scrutiny to do that, but at a certain point you are also going to be harassing, intimidating and creating onerous burdens for legitimate claimaints. All to root out a comparatively small number of people who are committing fraud. Some of these legitimate claimants will be intimidated away from applying for benefits to which they are legally entitled, or given the level of scrutiny that is applied, they may not have the necessary documents and certifications to apply.

So with a program like SSI, you want to make sure legitimate claimants can apply, lest they go without help (and possible become homeless or starve). As it stands now it takes over a year to process the applications, and the first round of applications are so rigid that many deserving applicants get denied because of a technicality.

So it may not be popular to say, but we have to tolerate a small level of fraud as inevitable in any government program so that legitimate recipients can get the help they need.

[unapatriciated]

187. ^^^^^^this^^^^^

[Liberal_in_LA]

188. good point

[UglyGreed]

189. With people being denied

just to be denied they are not helping matters. They are hoping people just give up and a person who is disabled is already at a weaken state of mind and are more likely to give up then to be put through the additional stress. IMO they might be weeding out those who need the help the most.

[kcr]

192. OMG, there's a spider on the wall! Honey, get the flame thrower...

Seriously, that is the same logic.

Yep. There's fraud. Crime does exist. It's a mean old world. Laws already exist to deal with it. Get over it and support social safety nets anyway and don't fall for dirty tricks meant to destroy them.

[ibegurpard]

193. so what?

prosecute those we find who defraud the system.
end of story.

[L0oniX]

209. SSDI is very hard to get. You get automatically denied. You need to get a lawyer to get it.

Then the lawyer gets their take before you get on it. My wife is disabled and I know what I am talking about.