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Sat Jun 20, 2015, 04:26 PM

The Charleston Shooter: Is He Or Isn't He?

Last edited Fri Nov 27, 2015, 01:20 PM - Edit history (16)

Let's get this straightened out once and for all: Did Dylan Roof commit an act of domestic terrorism, or did he not?

First things first: let's all get on the same page in terms of exactly what domestic terrorism IS. Okay then -- according to the Cornell University Legal Information Institute:

U.S. Code § 2331 - Definitions

(5) The term “domestic terrorism” means activities that:

(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

(B) appear to be intended to:
(i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.


Now, let's look at the evidence available to us:

Daily Beast: Joseph Meek Jr...(a) best friend (in) middle school...says Roof had begun ranting about the murders of Trayvon Martin and Freddie Gray...“He said blacks were taking over the world. Someone needed to do something about it for the white race,” Meek said. “He said he wanted segregation between whites and blacks. I said, ‘That’s not the way it should be.’ But he kept talking about it.”

...Roommate Dalton Tyler told ABC News that Roof was “planning something like that for six months...He was big into segregation and other stuff...He said he wanted to start a civil war. He said he was going to do something like that and then kill himself."

Christon Scriven, a friend...who is black...told the New York Daily News...“He flat out told us he was going to do this stuff...He was looking to kill a bunch of people.” He and their other friends assumed he had been joking. “He’s weird. You don’t know when to take him seriously and when not to,” he said.

Roof's Last Rhodesian.com Manifesto: ...(T)he Trayvon Martin case...prompted me to type in the words “black on White crime” into Google, and I have never been the same since that day. The first Web site I came to was the Council of Conservative Citizens...

I am not in the position to, alone, go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.

NBC News: The female survivor told Johnson that the gunman reloaded five different times..."You rape our women, and you're taking over our country. And you have to go," the shooter told the group, according to the survivor's account to Johnson.

The Guardian: Dylann Storm Roof...has reportedly confessed to carrying out the shootings at Emanuel AME church on Tuesday night...According to...CNN...(T)he 21-year-old...said that his motive had been that he wanted to start a race war...


Our next order of business is to determine if Roof's actions fit the legal definition of domestic terrorism -- did they:

Involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State? Yes -- shooting people is considered a violation of criminal laws in the United States, including the state of South Carolina.

Appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population? Yes -- his writings and the statements he made to his friends, his very victims, and law enforcement strongly suggest that he intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population.

Appear to be intended to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion by assassination? Yes -- declaring a civil war on part of the civilian population is certainly a vote of no confidence in government policy.

Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States? Yes -- they occurred in the United State of South Carolina.


All that's left do now is determine what part of the civilian population Roof was trying to coerce or intimidate. Well, by his own admissions, Roof intentionally traveled to a place that he knew would contain a lot of black people, and shot nine of them because they were black and he wanted to start a race war against blacks. So his act of domestic terrorism must have been based on race, and the black race in particular -- right?

NY Daily News: South Carolina...(m)agistrate James “Skip” Gosnell, Jr...announced in the courtroom packed with the victims’ anguished relatives:

“There are victims on this young man’s side of the family...Nobody would have ever thrown them into the whirlwind of events that they are being thrown into...We must find it in our heart at some point in time not only to help those that are victims but to also help his family as well.” Gosnell’s...statement — which was aired live on cable news — drew the wrath of hordes of furious social media users...

Daily Kos: ...Charles Cotton...of the National Rifle Association...decided to weigh in with his own explanation of who was really to blame for this horrific act of domestic terrorism: One of the murder victims...State Senator Clementa Pinckney..."voted against concealed-carry. Eight of his church members who might be alive if he had expressly allowed members to carry handguns in church are dead. Innocent people died because of his position on a political issue."

Right Wing Watch: Texas Gov. Rick Perry described the mass shooting at an African American church in Charleston earlier this week as an “accident” that was possibly caused by the over-prescription of medication...

Instead of talking about guns, Perry said, we should be talking about prescription drugs: "It seems to me, again without having all the details about this, that these individuals have been medicated and there may be a real issue in this country from the standpoint of these drugs and how they’re used.”

He added that while the shooting was “a crime of hate,” he didn’t know if it should be called a terrorist attack...

Business Insider: Reached for comment, a Perry communications adviser wrote in an email..."When watching the entire interview, it's clear from the context of his comments that Governor Perry meant incident."

Addicting Info: During a radio interview...Rick Santorum claimed that...Roof chose his victims “indiscriminately.”

“It’s obviously a crime of hate. We don’t know the rationale, but what other rationale could there be?...(Y)ou talk about the importance of prayer at this time, and we’re now seeing assaults on religious liberty we’ve never seen before..."

MediaMatters: Fox & Friends host Steve Doocy stated that it was extraordinary the massacre was being labeled a hate crime, positing, "It was a church, so maybe that's what they're talking about" and citing "hostility towards Christians."

Guest Bishop E. W. Jackson agreed that "most people jump to conclusions about race," and that "we don't know why he went into a church, but he didn't choose a "bar" or "basketball court."

Later, frequent Fox guest and former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani theorized that "we don't know the motivation of the person who did this," saying "maybe he hates Christian churches."

And later that day on Fox News Radio, Brian Kilmeade speculated that maybe the shooter "hates Christian churches" or possibly just the state of South Carolina.

NJ.com: "It's an awful tragedy anytime that somebody would walk in and participate in a prayer service for an hour and then get up and shoot the people you have been praying with? That's obviously a pretty depraved person," Chris Christie said...

Huffington Post: "It was a horrific act and I don't know what the background of it is, but it was an act of hatred," Jeb Bush said.

Asked again whether the shooting was because of race, Bush added, "I don't know. Looks like to me it was, but we'll find out all the information. It's clear it was an act of raw hatred, for sure. Nine people lost their lives, and they were African-American. You can judge what it is."

DU-er Yuiyoshida (via Twitter and the Huffington Post):

[center][/center]


Wow -- I almost blew it, and I certainly owe Mr. Roof an apology. There I was, all set to brand him as a race-based domestic terrorist just because he admitted that he was trying to start a race war against blacks! Not once did I consider that Root might have been trying to intimidate or coerce the civilian populations of the religious in general, Christians in particular, the pharmaceutical industry, gun control advocates, or even his own relatives.

Roof told his acquaintances he wanted to start a race war against blacks; he told his victims he was murdering them because they were black; he confessed to law enforcement that he'd tried start a race war against blacks, and how do I thank him? With irresponsible speculating and baseless conclusions!


rocktivity

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Arrow 60 replies Author Time Post
Reply The Charleston Shooter: Is He Or Isn't He? (Original post)
rocktivity Jun 2015 OP
malaise Jun 2015 #1
CaliforniaPeggy Jun 2015 #2
99Forever Jun 2015 #3
Throd Jun 2015 #4
doc03 Jun 2015 #5
Stardust Jun 2015 #6
rocktivity Jun 2015 #7
alfie Jun 2015 #8
rocktivity Jun 2015 #9
MADem Jun 2015 #10
yuiyoshida Jun 2015 #11
daleanime Jun 2015 #12
starroute Jun 2015 #13
rocktivity Jun 2015 #16
passiveporcupine Jun 2015 #17
salib Jun 2015 #19
starroute Jun 2015 #30
Jamastiene Jun 2015 #50
lovemydog Jun 2015 #14
scarletwoman Jun 2015 #15
passiveporcupine Jun 2015 #18
Brian66 Jun 2015 #20
-none Jun 2015 #25
valerief Jun 2015 #21
Fred Sanders Jun 2015 #22
Lucky Luciano Jun 2015 #23
Skittles Jun 2015 #24
WillyT Jun 2015 #26
niyad Jun 2015 #27
nightscanner59 Jun 2015 #28
DirkGently Jun 2015 #29
Enthusiast Jun 2015 #37
uppityperson Jun 2015 #31
smirkymonkey Jun 2015 #32
davidpdx Jun 2015 #33
madokie Jun 2015 #34
Enthusiast Jun 2015 #36
Enthusiast Jun 2015 #35
dakdirty Jun 2015 #38
Spazito Jun 2015 #39
aikoaiko Jun 2015 #40
rocktivity Jun 2015 #41
napkinz Jun 2015 #42
napkinz Jun 2015 #43
City Lights Jun 2015 #44
napkinz Jun 2015 #45
Heidi Jun 2015 #46
rocktivity Jun 2015 #47
BeanMusical Jun 2015 #53
rocktivity Jun 2015 #54
Jamastiene Jun 2015 #48
napkinz Jun 2015 #49
cascadiance Jun 2015 #51
cherokeeprogressive Jun 2015 #52
rocktivity Jun 2015 #55
rocktivity Jun 2015 #56
sjk.fly4ever Jun 2015 #57
rocktivity Jul 2015 #58
rocktivity Sep 2015 #59
rocktivity Sep 2015 #60

Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 04:38 PM

1. A magnificent post

Rec

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 04:41 PM

2. K&R

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 04:41 PM

3. K&R

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 04:42 PM

4. He most certainly did.

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 04:43 PM

5. There is no doubt in my mind but none of the

news media wants to call it that. He isn't a thug either, he was a troubled youth.

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 05:14 PM

6. I agree that his actions qualified as domestic terrorism, but I suspect his initial motivation

was jealousy--the most powerful emotion a young man can experience. From what I've read, he had his eye on a girl who chose a black guy over him.

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Response to Stardust (Reply #6)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 05:15 PM

7. I figured something pushed him over the edge

I thought maybe his sister was about to marry a minority.


rocktivity

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 05:19 PM

8. It took place in South Carolina, not Georgia

Eom

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Response to alfie (Reply #8)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 05:25 PM

9. Kilmeade's mistake, not mine

As if you'd expect anything less...


rocktivity

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 05:28 PM

10. He's a terrorist. No doubt. I think his goal went further than "domestic" though.

He had a World Order POV, with colors assigned to continents, pretty much. Hateful asshole. Nutty ideas, but he's completely sane--and full of hate.

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 05:45 PM

11. Thanks for including

my post

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 06:00 PM

12. K&R.....

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 06:03 PM

13. By that definition, you couldn't call 9/11 terrorism either

It wasn't attached to any list of demands. It didn't attempt to change any specific US policy. It didn't coerce the American people into doing or not doing anything in particular. It wasn't like Palestinian terrorism against Israel or IRA terrorism against Britain, both of which carried a clear message.

You could certainly call it a hate crime -- even Bush did that when he said, "They hate us for our freedom." But how would it qualify as terrorism? Just because it was aimed at white people?

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Response to starroute (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 06:20 PM

16. I think 9/11 qualifles as intimidation of American citizens

and an attempt to influence the government's mid-East policies -- if only with fear of it happening again.


rocktivity

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Response to starroute (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 06:26 PM

17. I don't think this is correct

It didn't attempt to change any specific US policy. It didn't coerce the American people into doing or not doing anything in particular.


I believe it was an attempt to change our foreign policy and to terrorize our people into leaving Muslim countries alone. I think it was the absolute definition of a terrorist act.

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Response to starroute (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 06:29 PM

19. That is blatantly disingenuous.

The definitions makes no mention of a requirement for demands, let alone a Los of demands. Yet OBL did have them. No mention of specific US policy in the definition, yet again OBL had demands.

In fact, bush gave into those demands immediately: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/02/09/432042/-Bush-surrendered-to-bin-Laden

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Response to salib (Reply #19)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 01:58 AM

30. It's a sincere question

Terrorism can be used as a weapon of war to strike fear into an enemy population. It can be used by a faction to intimidate voters or to make the ordinary processes of government unsustainable. It can be used to demand the release of political prisoners or a cash mayment. It can be a means by which the disenfranchised make their grievances known in a way that cannot be ignored.

But 9/11 wasn't any of those. It's never been clear who was actually behind it. Bin Laden kinda-sorta took credit for it, but it's pretty clear it couldn't have been coordinated from a cave in Afghanistan. And though we've assumed that the goal was the withdrawal of US troops from Saudi Arabia -- which did occur in 2003 -- that's never been entirely clear either.

Perhaps the secrets are all hidden in those 28 pages. Maybe people at the highest levels of the Saudi government pulled it off to get us out of their country and we were so terrified that we not only protected the perpetrators but gave into their demands. If that's true, it would be the revelation to end all revelations, and I'd love to see it come out.

But if it is true, that may be why the Bush administration couldn't clearly define it as an act of terror -- despite using the word "terror" incessantly -- but had to pitch it as a seemingly motiveless hate crime. And that puts it on the same level as the Charleston shootings.

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Response to starroute (Reply #13)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:14 PM

50. Uhm, have you forgotten The Patriot Act? n/t

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 06:19 PM

14. Yes. He is a racist domestic terrorist.

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 06:20 PM

15. Great post, really excellent! Thank you for doing all that work!

However, reading all the rightwing bullshit is unbearably nausea-inducing.

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 06:27 PM

18. This OP needs to go viral

Excellent!

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 06:36 PM

20. Re-loaded?

 

If he re-loaded five times and "only" killed 9 people, he must be a really bad shot.

Definitely in need of some remedial shooter training, something I'm sure the NRA would be happy to provide.

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Response to Brian66 (Reply #20)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 06:59 PM

25. Multiple shots into each person

He wanted to make sure.

I don't know about the terrorism part, but it was most diffidently racism. They were shot because they were Black.

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 06:43 PM

21. Uh, he assassinated a state senator. That's terrorism. nt

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Response to valerief (Reply #21)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 06:47 PM

22. Unnecessary to meet the legal test; assassination of a political figure is a disjunctive in the definition.

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 06:49 PM

23. Tldr - short on time...but yup...definitely a terrorist. nt

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 06:53 PM

24. of course it is terrorism

you'd have to be racist to think otherwise

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 07:05 PM

26. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

 




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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 07:11 PM

27. k and r

why we must call dylann roof a terrorist:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026862199

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 07:21 PM

28. Methinks both Faux Noize and these Republidiots may just be in the making of their own undoing with

this hogwash they are peddling. Just in a quick channel surf shortly after this incident I saw empathetic, reasonable reporting on CNN, MSNBC and HLN...
Oh, but Fox... oh, my. Was spreading paranoia about "Now Obama will be coming to take your guns!!!!!" aside from the christian victimization syndrome in attempt to mask this blatantly racist... and yes... terrorist act.
I hope Fox has lost several thousand of the more moderate viewers with this Scroogery.

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sat Jun 20, 2015, 07:30 PM

29. Rightwing violence gets written off as anomalous "bad apple" behavior.

I'm not particularly wound up over whether "terrorism" is applied -- we've abused and tortured (ahem) that term so much that it doesn't carry much meaning at this point.

But what we're seeing isn't just a string of random criminal events either. And you can be sure that if leftwing extremists shot doctors and bombed clinics, murdered police and draped the bodies in Gadsden flags, or pointed rifles at BLM agents because they "don't recognize the authority of the U.S. government, " we'd have a national call to root out the leaders and organizations behind it in a heartbeat.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #29)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 11:52 AM

37. Huge +1!

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 02:41 AM

31. k&r& bookmark, great post, thank you. To answer, yes.

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 02:46 AM

32. K&R, Great post!

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 07:51 AM

33. One minor point

To be charged under U.S. Code § 2331 he would have to be tried in a US Federal Court. Now it is possible that he could be AFTER he is tried on the state level. I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) South Carolina gets the first crack at convicting him. When his trial is over he could be charged and tried in the Federal court, but in the mean time a the federal case could be put together against him concurrent with the trial in South Carolina.

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 07:55 AM

34. Domestic terrorism

plain and simple. No if and or buts about it

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Response to madokie (Reply #34)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 11:50 AM

36. Yes, domestic terrorism, no question about it.

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 11:48 AM

35. Kicked and recommended to the Max! Great post, rocktivity!

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 11:56 AM

38. We have a long history of terrorism in America

What's the difference between the Klan and ISIS? Color of the mask?

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 12:00 PM

39. Excellent post!

Thanks for all the work you did to put this together.

Yes, he is definitely a terrorist by the very criteria set down in US law.

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 04:22 PM

40. I think domestic terrorist is an excellent descriptor.



After reading his manifesto it was clear to me that he wasn't attacking specific African Americans who he thought had done wrong, but attacked and killed them because of who they represented.


This was a political act of terror and intimidation. sure, it's possible drugs and mental illnesses may be involved but he had a plan based on white supremacy principle.

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 10:32 AM

41. "Thanks for the Recs" Kick


rocktivity

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 02:14 PM

42. K&R!





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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 02:18 PM

43. yep, not a racially-motivated hate crime, but an attack on people of faith ...




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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 02:21 PM

44. Definitely a terrorist. nt

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 02:31 PM

45. Michael Moore tweet ...

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 02:35 PM

46. Kick, kick, kick!

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 05:01 PM

47. RE: The Council of Conservative Citizens

which might explain the GOP media blitz about taking down the confederate flag (thanks DU-ers Dixiegrrrl and Herding Cats):



rocktivity

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Response to rocktivity (Reply #47)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:48 PM

53. Nice list of scumbags.

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Response to rocktivity (Reply #47)

Thu Jun 25, 2015, 11:58 AM

54. Rachel Maddow on the CCC




rocktivity

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:12 PM

48. K&R

Yup, we are being so terrible to him, aren't we? We should be ashamed of ourselves for assuming he is a racist domestic terrorist just because he killed 9 black people after they welcomed him into their church with open arms and open hearts. We are being so horrible to the poor little fella.

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:13 PM

49. ...

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:17 PM

51. Send the Bastard to Guantanamo where we keep other terrrorists...

 

... and have been torturing them to find out more what their buddies are doing before we go after them with drone strikes. Perhaps that is in order for some of these white racist terrorists if they continue to do so, and if we continue to do these kind of things to other people that we define as terrorists.

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Mon Jun 22, 2015, 08:18 PM

52. Did.

 

I wish all questions were this easy...

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Fri Jun 26, 2015, 06:15 PM

55. Amazingly graceful.

Last edited Sun Jun 4, 2017, 03:01 PM - Edit history (3)




rocktivity

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:09 PM

56. Yet another casualty of Roof's Race War

Last edited Tue Jul 14, 2015, 10:41 AM - Edit history (2)



Michael Moore has offered to pay Bree Newsome's bail and legal fees, but he's about a week late and $125,000 short!


rocktivity

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:34 PM

57. Massacre in Charleston: Shame of America

 

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 12:54 PM

58. Federal Hate Crime Charges to Be Filed

Last edited Wed Jul 22, 2015, 06:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Charleston Shooting Suspect Roof To Be Indicted On Federal Hate Crime Charges
Dylann Roof...will face federal hate crime charges along with more than a dozen other serious charges he's already accused of...(T)he Justice Department will unveil (the) charges...today.

We've won a battle, but not the war. Where's the domestic terrorism charge?


rocktivity

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Response to rocktivity (Reply #58)

Thu Sep 3, 2015, 03:06 PM

59. 9/4 UPDATE: Prosecutors calling for death penalty (but not for domestic terrorism)

The Guardian.com: The white man accused of killing nine black churchgoers during a Bible study will face the death penalty, according to court documents filed (September 4)...because more than two people were killed, and that others’ lives were put at risk. Prosecutors also said they intended to present evidence on Roof’s mental state, adult and juvenile criminal record and other conduct, as well as his apparent lack of remorse for the killings.

He also faces federal charges including hate crimes and obstruction of the practice of religion, some of which are also eligible for the death penalty in that system. US attorney general Loretta Lynch has said federal charges were necessary to adequately address a motive that prosecutors believe was unquestionably rooted in racial hate. South Carolina has no state hate crimes law.

Where's the domestic terrorism charge? VIOLENT "obstruction of the practice of religion" surely qualifies as terrorism, especially when there's a pile of criminal intent aforethought!


rocktivity

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Response to rocktivity (Original post)

Thu Sep 3, 2015, 03:41 PM

60. American Terrorist by Anne Telnaes




rocktivity

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