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Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:10 PM

I have formulated an opinion about the TPP

I think President Obama has been convinced, or threatened, that the world economy will crash without it. And that that must be kept secret from us peons, or the mere rumor will crash it.

I don't think he is a bad man. As a matter of fact, I'd like to hug his neck and thank him for a number of things.

One thing I do know - corporations have too much power.

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Reply I have formulated an opinion about the TPP (Original post)
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 OP
SciFiRK Jun 2015 #1
Man from Pickens Jun 2015 #2
kelliekat44 Jun 2015 #3
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #7
NRaleighLiberal Jun 2015 #11
cherokeeprogressive Jun 2015 #41
AgingAmerican Jun 2015 #4
DJ13 Jun 2015 #6
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #9
brentspeak Jun 2015 #5
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #8
cherokeeprogressive Jun 2015 #42
CK_John Jun 2015 #10
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #12
Art_from_Ark Jun 2015 #32
BuelahWitch Jun 2015 #50
Hoyt Jun 2015 #13
Skittles Jun 2015 #14
Hoyt Jun 2015 #17
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #21
LeftOfWest Jun 2015 #18
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #16
Hoyt Jun 2015 #19
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #20
Hoyt Jun 2015 #22
HFRN Jun 2015 #24
Hoyt Jun 2015 #28
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #25
tkmorris Jun 2015 #45
Hoyt Jun 2015 #46
sadoldgirl Jun 2015 #15
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #27
udbcrzy2 Jun 2015 #23
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #26
virtualobserver Jun 2015 #29
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #30
virtualobserver Jun 2015 #31
DrDan Jun 2015 #33
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #35
DrDan Jun 2015 #39
Betty Karlson Jun 2015 #34
treestar Jun 2015 #36
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #37
Man from Pickens Jun 2015 #38
treestar Jun 2015 #40
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #47
DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2015 #43
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #48
Marr Jun 2015 #44
SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #49
orpupilofnature57 Jun 2015 #51
SusanCalvin Aug 2015 #52
orpupilofnature57 Aug 2015 #53
SusanCalvin Sep 2015 #54

Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:19 PM

1. Just because your paranoid doesn't mean someone's not out to get you,

 

I have pondered for years if Obama is being literally being threatened in some way. All the Secret Service "close calls". Maybe just wishful thinking because I don't want to actually think that he would screw us over with some of his decisions that seems to happen.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:19 PM

2. The more straightforward explanation

 

When you have banks that can literally print money, and the crime of bribery is functionally obsolete. any price can and will be met. Look how richly the Clintons are compensated for carrying their water.

The game being rigged being the simplest explanation, that hypothesis needs to be discredited to proceed to a more complex explanation (Occam's Razor). It is staggeringly difficult to refute with any degree of confidence...

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Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:20 PM

3. I will not underestimate the President's ability to think clearly and act in the nation's best

 

interests to the best of his ability even though we can't see the benefit clearly. I am willing to wait to see how things unfold in the next two years. In other words, I want to give it chance to work for our benefit before trashing it out of hand.

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Response to kelliekat44 (Reply #3)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:27 PM

7. I don't, because of the secrecy.

And the uncharacteristic vehemence of the president regarding this issue.

And, of course, the fact that nearly 100 percent of Rs support it.

I don't like it - I've just been trying to figure out why the president is so uncharacteristically energetic on its behalf.

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Response to kelliekat44 (Reply #3)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:33 PM

11. by then it may be too late. I personally think the whole thing stinks.

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Response to kelliekat44 (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:49 PM

41. Can anyone explain why something "so good" contains built-in protection for displaced workers?

 

Fuck secrecy. Fuck any government that thinks it's a good thing, and fuck the people who run such a government.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:24 PM

4. I believe he craves approval from the GOP

 

Thus far, his 'post partisan' fantasy has fallen flat. I believe he see's this as his big chance for bipartisanship with them. He has to throw all his allies and everyone who voted for him under the bus to do so. It is pretty revolting, IMHO.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:27 PM

6. All too true

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:32 PM

9. Well, I've always said

That either the man has never bought a car, or he always got taken.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:27 PM

5. So what you are suggesting is that Obama is

dumb as dirt.

No, he's smart enough to know what this is all about -- pleasing some Wall Street puppet masters.

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #5)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:29 PM

8. Yeah, you may be right.

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #5)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:50 PM

42. The proof will be in the pudding...

 

and I bet he'll be worth about half a billion dollars in pudding less than 10 years after he turns the White House over to the next politician.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:32 PM

10. It's all about the numbers, The TPP Countries have several billion people

who don't need to buy our stuff.

We only have several million people that needs them to buy our stuff or our economy will tank, since we no longer make the stuff we need from them.

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Response to CK_John (Reply #10)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:35 PM

12. Economy. Tank.

Yep, that's about what I said.

And we brought it on ourselves.

Or the corporations, banksters, and 1% did.

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Response to CK_John (Reply #10)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:20 AM

32. TPP countries combined have around 800 million people

That includes the 480 million people in the NAFTA countries.

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Response to CK_John (Reply #10)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:46 PM

50. "Don't need to buy our stuff"?

Or can't afford to? Neither they nor we will be able to buy any "stuff" if we're all working for pittance wages.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:37 PM

13. How do you formulate an opinion about something you say is "secret"

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:40 PM

14. same way you do

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Response to Skittles (Reply #14)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:44 PM

17. I don't consider it secret, lots of info if you care to look.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #17)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:49 PM

21. Link to full text, please? nt

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Response to Skittles (Reply #14)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:45 PM

18. Thread win.

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:43 PM

16. Oh lord. Not you again

Just Google Moyers and TPP together.

And I know that you know that this "just wait until it's finalized" business is often (if not virtually always) a way of getting people to wait until it is too late.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #16)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:46 PM

19. And some folks call it "secret" when it's not, to sway opinion.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #19)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:48 PM

20. Link to full text, please? nt

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #20)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:54 PM

22. Full text isn't available because it's not finished. But, if you start with NAFTA, adjust for

negotiating documents, add in objectives from White House and USTR, etc., and you pretty much have it.

In any event, you'll see it well before Congress takes it up.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #22)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:40 PM

24. Full text isn't available because it's *SECRET!* nt

 

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Response to HFRN (Reply #24)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:05 AM

28. Nope, not finished. When it is, it will be released. That's required by TPA, which you should read.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #22)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:40 PM

25. Start with NAFTA, see before Congress takes it up.

Great, plenty of time to protest. If that will make any difference.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #22)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:08 PM

45. Still wrong, no matter how many times you post it

1) There is text, call it "working text", or a "rough draft" or whatever you like. It exists.

2) You can't read it. A few folks can, but you aint one of them.

3) Ergo, it's secret.

It's logic an average Kindergartner can follow.

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Response to tkmorris (Reply #45)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:15 PM

46. I've read most of it. Why haven't you? I've read working text on ISDS, drugs, IP, etc.

Again, look at NAFTA, working text, goals, etc., and you've pretty much got it.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:40 PM

15. I can agree with you to a certain degree

I always have wondered how much power is
left to the person in the WH. Not just the
banks, but all the powerful institutions of
government, which to a great degree have been
bought. I am not sure, although I accepted
Obama's admission that he is a moderate
Republican. You cannot leave that out for
matter of convenience.

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Response to sadoldgirl (Reply #15)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:03 AM

27. Hey, if he'd get even slightly to the left of Eisenhower,

I'd be a lot happier.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:56 PM

23. This reminds me of something

 

To me it's like deja vu of the heathcare plan where the insurance companies and lobbyist wrote out the plan behind closed doors.

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Response to udbcrzy2 (Reply #23)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:42 PM

26. Yep.

I'd love to know the full story of why.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:14 AM

29. Zero interest-rate policy since late 2008......

 

the Federal Reserve keeps pretending that they are about to raise interest rates, but they don't.

If things were really going well, ZIRP should have sent the economy into the stratosphere.

As you say, words could crash the economy.....certainly the stock market.

He is a good man, and is probably a genius.

What you are saying feels right to me.











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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #29)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:28 AM

30. As does what you are saying.

Which scares me and my IRA.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #30)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:03 AM

31. I think that we will be OK, as long as we don't get a Republican in the WH

 

The technicians at the DNC won't agree with this, but I think that we need to deliver a knockout blow to Republicans at all levels, and the standard middle of the road talking points and policies won't get it done.

Bernie is the only Democrat that I see who even has a chance at that.



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Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:17 AM

33. so he turned to the GOP rather than the Dems to assist in saving the world

interesting theory

The Dems wanted no part of that?

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Response to DrDan (Reply #33)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 08:06 AM

35. I said perhaps *he* was convinced/threatened,

Not the rest of the Dems.

And the Rs like it, of course, because their corporate masters do.

Heck, I don't know. I just know that I don't like it and that sometimes the president puzzles me.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #35)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 11:04 AM

39. I think he puzzles us all

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Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:19 AM

34. Worth considering.

 

It is as likely an explanation as any other.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 08:10 AM

36. It's being used as a wedge issue

by people on the internet. It's not as important as they make it out to be. They are making it bigger than it is because they are looking for something to stir up trouble.

Too bad we allow them to succeed. There's nothing odd about the secret negotiations. Before the sunshine laws, legislatures did that frequently - only presented the final bill, but avoided making their committee deliberations public. This is only to make the debate be about the final product. It's not keeping anything secret permanently.

Most of it is meant to protect us in international trade. Without any agreements, there is no regulation, and we trade with countries that have no minimum wage, etc., making it harder for our labor to compete with theirs. Some regulation will help that. Other countries want access to our market, and we can use that to get them to make better conditions in their countries.

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Response to treestar (Reply #36)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 08:16 AM

37. I might could buy that

if Congress had the same access to it that corporations do. But they don't.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #37)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 10:15 AM

38. hear hear

 

The number of innocent explanations for taking extreme measures to keep the documents out of the hands of the representatives of the people, by my count, is zero.

If this agreement were even arguably beneficial to the American people we'd be having a debate over its contents and not over why we can't see what its contents are.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #37)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:42 PM

40. They will

and what corporations have access to it? Anyway it cannot be voted on until made public.

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Response to treestar (Reply #40)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:22 PM

47. Sigh....

http://www.flushthetpp.org/tpp-corporate-insiders/

If all these people have full, meaningful access, right now, why don't our elected representatives?

And, rightly or wrongly, I get the feeling that when it becomes public time until the vote will be short. It's always felt like an attempt to flim flam the public to me.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:52 PM

43. I don't think it prevented a crash

I do think it's part of the Asia pivot and to prevent China from being an Asian hegemon.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #43)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:25 PM

48. Yeah, I should have said

he's been convinced it will prevent something very bad.

Maybe it will. But the leaked parts sound pretty bad themselves. And it caused the president to act in uncharacteristic ways, which always makes me suspicious.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:58 PM

44. It isn't complicated-- he believes in trickle down economics.

 

He himself described his policies as 'mainstream 80's Republican'.

People make up these complicated narratives to reconcile what they want to think of Obama with what the facts, and his own words, say.

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Response to Marr (Reply #44)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:27 PM

49. Yeah, but

That doesn't necessarily explain *all* of the bad stuff that's been leaked.

Oh heck, I'm going around in circles. I think I'll stop.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:56 PM

51. Well the " Too big to fail " worked like a charm, those are the people putting this together, We

 

need a person willing to level with us about threats to our Democracy, and if the Corporations go un policed we will have another Crash, Wouldn't want to be wealthy in that world .

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #51)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:08 PM

52. I'd want to be wealthy in that world!

a) It generally beats being poor, and b) The wealthy can make out like bandits when stocks, commodities, and labor are cheap.

But I'd prefer that world not happen.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #52)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 05:56 PM

53. I'll do whatever I can to make sure it doesn't , Bernie !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #53)

Sat Sep 5, 2015, 11:48 PM

54. BERNIE!

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