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kpete

(72,013 posts)
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 11:11 AM Jul 2015

OBAMA rips Confederate Flag: “just because something is a part of your past doesn’t make it right"



In Nairobe Kenya, President Obama says that “just because something is a part of your past doesn’t make it right. It doesn’t mean that it defines your future.”

As an example Obama pointed to the controversy over flying the confederate flag in the United States.

“It was a flag that flew over an army that fought to maintain a system of slavery and racial subjugation. So we should understand our history, but we should also recognize it sends a bad message to those who were liberated from slavery and oppression.”

“Just because something’s a tradition doesn’t make it right.”




MUCH MORE:
http://theuptake.org/2015/07/26/obama-bad-traditions-confederate-flag-suppressing-women/
24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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OBAMA rips Confederate Flag: “just because something is a part of your past doesn’t make it right" (Original Post) kpete Jul 2015 OP
I would have added...."duh". Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #1
These are great comments Gothmog Jul 2015 #2
Look at the women there! Thanks, Obama! n/t freshwest Jul 2015 #3
When racist groups seized control of the flag... ColesCountyDem Jul 2015 #4
It originated from a great big ol' racist group. MynameisBlarney Jul 2015 #11
Obviously. ColesCountyDem Jul 2015 #12
I don't see the positive "heritage" symbolism here, it either represents... Humanist_Activist Jul 2015 #13
Don't get me wrong-- I don't see it, either. ColesCountyDem Jul 2015 #14
Its the "lost cause" mythology, and its poisonous. Humanist_Activist Jul 2015 #16
I also grew up in a border area, although the state is seldom thought of as a border state. ColesCountyDem Jul 2015 #17
I live quite a bit north and west of you, I live in St. Louis, though I don't... Humanist_Activist Jul 2015 #23
Yeah...I know what you are saying passiveporcupine Jul 2015 #22
It's good he made these statements but I question the timing and venue. craigmatic Jul 2015 #5
Well? MynameisBlarney Jul 2015 #10
the confederate flag thing was big like 3 weeks ago. Obama is late and he said this on a weekend craigmatic Jul 2015 #18
He spoke out before this. On US soil. "That flag belongs in a museum." Was that not Obama? Hekate Jul 2015 #19
maybe but it wasn't forceful. This could've been his Berlin wall moment. Take down that flag. craigmatic Jul 2015 #20
Oooo, "it wasn't forceful". Move the goalpost. Or maybe just make stuff up. Hekate Jul 2015 #21
I think that was Indiana Jones, actually. NuclearDem Jul 2015 #24
Complexity. Igel Jul 2015 #6
There is no parallel here, where do you get that from? Humanist_Activist Jul 2015 #15
K & R Scurrilous Jul 2015 #7
Yeah, they were holding up their confedate flags when MLK attempted to March from Selma to Cha Jul 2015 #8
Well said nt lluvia Jul 2015 #9

ColesCountyDem

(6,943 posts)
4. When racist groups seized control of the flag...
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:50 PM
Jul 2015

I don't doubt that many southerners do indeed regard the flag as a 'heritage issue', but when the flag was seized by racist groups without so much as a peep by the heritage folks, they forfeited their right to 'ownership' of it. If they wanted it to stand for heritage and pride, they should have taken better care of it.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
13. I don't see the positive "heritage" symbolism here, it either represents...
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 12:53 PM
Jul 2015

a failed attempt at creating a country whose economy would have been based on the slavery of black men and women into perpetuity, as they explicitly stated in their secession documents, and started a war about it. Or its a flag representing opposition to integration.

The heritage represented by that flag shouldn't be lauded.

ColesCountyDem

(6,943 posts)
14. Don't get me wrong-- I don't see it, either.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 12:57 PM
Jul 2015

I think most of the 'heritage' folks think solely in terms of valor, etc., yet fail to understand that the picture was much larger.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
16. Its the "lost cause" mythology, and its poisonous.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 01:06 PM
Jul 2015

I was born and raised in a border state, direct ancestors of Union soldiers, and frankly, the amount of bloodshed the South perpetuated on the country was shameful.

ColesCountyDem

(6,943 posts)
17. I also grew up in a border area, although the state is seldom thought of as a border state.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 03:37 PM
Jul 2015

I grew up in the part of southern Illinois that falls below Richmond VA, in terms of latitude, and the southern sympathy was much more straightforward-- over half of the people here, or their recent ancestors, had come here via VA, NC, TN or KY, and they believed in slavery. Oddly enough, I didn't grow up hearing about the 'lost cause'. Now that I think about it, people here at least had the common decency to be ashamed of that shameful episode in American history.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
23. I live quite a bit north and west of you, I live in St. Louis, though I don't...
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:37 PM
Jul 2015

have to go far to hear from people who talk about the "lost cause" though not in so many words around here. Mostly south of I-70 and counties south of St. Louis County.

People from Missour-ah not Missour-ee.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
22. Yeah...I know what you are saying
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 10:30 PM
Jul 2015

But what they don't get is, valor defending something unconscionable is not something to be proud of.

 

craigmatic

(4,510 posts)
18. the confederate flag thing was big like 3 weeks ago. Obama is late and he said this on a weekend
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 09:19 PM
Jul 2015

when no one was paying attention while he was out of the country. It's calculated to not offend people most notably white supremacists.

Igel

(35,350 posts)
6. Complexity.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 02:07 PM
Jul 2015

That's why.

Rather than look at this, I'll look at E. Ukraine.

A lot of statues of Lenin are coming down in places like Khar'kiv and Soviet-era place names are undergoing a second way of de-Sovietization. At the same time, in other places the culture's being re-Sovietized, in speech if not always in action. That, sadly, is the dominant narrative.

There are two perspectives to consider.

The Ukrainian nationalist way: It's good. The USSR was repressive, evil, and murderous. It was responsible for the intentional famine and for forced collectivization that worsened the famine, for political repression and continued the evil, imperialist work of the tsars'. The Russianization program was ethnocentrist and denied the expression of our culture. We must strip society of all reminders of that evil, oppressive, offensive past. It offends us to remind us of that history.

The Russian nationalist way: It's evil. The USSR may have had problems, but it fought German fascist and largely won on its own. It uplifted millions and provided social services for the many, even if it did hurt the rich. The famine was, nonetheless, a real famine, and Russians also died. Why blame us for language shift--it happens all the time. It's the price we pay for speaking a minority language that's different from the regional, more important language, esp. with a more prestigious culture, and we think Russian culture's pretty damned good and it's racist to belittle it. Moreover, now, as in WWII, WWI, fighting the Ottomans and the Catholics and the Horde, the world is against us and we must stand united in strength. That's been Rus', Russia.

Note that the Ukrainians that are "nationalist" often just want Ukrainian language and culture to not be subject to Russian (and often want to protect it); they're also more often going to be vaguely capitalist and more EU, thinking integration with the West is a good thing if only because it protects them from a more local threat--Russia.

The Russians that are nationalist often just want Russian put back where it was--they feel like they've lost something, and that's hard on the old psyche. They also tend to be older, in areas that are less economically well off these days, and rely more on social services and pensions. They're nationalists and also Communists or Communist sympathizers. They also long for days when they got vicarious satisfaction from victories or, every bit as much, resistance to outsiders--whether the Russian empire or the Soviet empire, whether taking Berlin or partisan activities behind German lines.

Both sides are right and both sides only see their own rightness. One side, sadly, is also into ritual humiliation to a greater extent than the other, as recompense for past humiliation still felt and to forestall future humiliation already perceived.

The Russians need to see that their privileges were inappropriate, and Russianization was wrong. That what the USSR did wasn't all good and light and was, at times, truly evil. At the same time, the Ukrainians have to realize that the cities were industrial and educated, due mostly to Russian influence, and the language shift wasn't just forced but also part natural, as was the famine in the '20s and early '30s. The Soviet victory over fascism was every bit as important as the resistance struggle against Communism and "Russianism." Even purely Ukrainian institutions were modelled on Russian ones (or, at times, German ones). More importantly, both sides have to realize that "I'm good, they're bad" is a sucky way to claim the moral high ground or build community or a community. What's left is all-or-nothing warfare. In some ways, since they do share some common accomplishments and culture (it's the post hoc claims of "it was all us" or "it was all you" that grate), this job shouldn't be all that hard. But it is.

If this closeness of the parallel with the US doesn't gobsmack you, I don't know what to say. It's not a question of not seeing the trees for the forest, it's a question of not seeing the trees because those pesky moss leaves keep towering over us and getting in the way.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
15. There is no parallel here, where do you get that from?
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 01:04 PM
Jul 2015

This is not a "both sides were kinda right" situation.

You had one side that wanted to preserve slavery at all costs, including killing what were their own countrymen up till secession, and you had the other side that wanted to preserve the union at any costs, including fighting back against the southern war of secession. The Union's side gradually evolved to include a soft abolitionist stance, and then a hard one at the end of the war. The fact is that, if the South wasn't run by extremist pro-slavery politicians and started a war over it, gradual manumission would have occurred, and hundreds of thousands of lives would have been saved.

I'll be honest and say that in such a scenario, I feel things would have been worse for former slaves on some levels, I doubt anything equivalent to the Reconstruction Amendments would have passed at the time without the Civil War having been fought, so they would have had fewer legal rights, and it would be totally dependent on the states they reside in. Jim Crow was bad, but it was a successful workaround of those amendments for well over half a century or so.

I digress, the point is that we do not have two valid points of view here, particularly when it comes to the Confederate battle flag, which was and is used as a symbol to either support slavery and white supremacy(during Civil War), or support segregation and white supremacy(Mid-20th century).

Cha

(297,574 posts)
8. Yeah, they were holding up their confedate flags when MLK attempted to March from Selma to
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 05:34 PM
Jul 2015

Montgomery, too.

Mahalo kpete

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