If you decide I am your enemy....

[sibelian]

Then, eventually, that's it. I AM your enemy, whether I like it or not.

I can attempt to persuade you otherwise, but if my attempts to persuade you otherwise are used by you to continue to persuade yourself of your original decision (and it is your decision), there is, in the end, nothing I can do.

That's how enmity works.

"You hate me!"

"No, I really don't."

"You're arguing with me! That means you hate me!"

Has there ever been a process more farcically manipulative and self-perpetuating?

[Le Taz Hot]

1. If you think about it,

haven't we all had that experience IRL? Someone that just decides to take a disliking of you for whatever reason. You don't return their enmity. But since the enmity is not originating from you, there's really nothing you can do about it except to continue to try to be a good human being to everyone. That's all any of us can do.

[H2O Man]

2. Right.

A lot of people dislike me. Some for good reason, some for no reason. That's just part of the human experience.

[stillwaiting]

8. A lot of people dislike or hate themselves. And, people who dislike or hate themselves...

... dislike and hate others. Oftentimes, they dislike and hate MANY others.

I am working on trying to be compassionate to people even when they don't like me for this very reason. We live in a world where it's not easy to learn to like yourself for many different reasons.

[sibelian]

54. I have reached the sad conclusion

that a great deal of human behaviour arises from people needing to believe that their feelings are appropriate. "I hate myself? I must BECOME the hateful thing. And YOU must also hate me."

[Maedhros]

56. It's 'Injustice Collecting'

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200611/injustice-collecting

We have a complicated relationship with the grudges we hold. We get obsessed and aggravated by the many slights that befall us, but we're ever reluctant to bury our pain and move on. Like an illicit affair, our beloved grudges usually end up creating misery for all involved.

The tendency to itemize every unfair knock we've ever suffered is known as injustice collecting. Sometimes the injustices are personal, as in, "My boss unfairly promoted Rick over me." This kind of self-talk leads to anger. At other times, the catalogued outrages lead to overwrought generalizations, such as, "Nothing ever goes well; this is too unfair." This type of thinking leads to hopelessness and rage.

Enough grudge holding and soon you'll see more iniquity than actually exists. The injustice collector becomes a trigger-happy perceiver. If you walk down the street recounting the affronts you've suffered lately, you'll kick up quite a cloud of dejection.

[sibelian]

57. Yeah, I can be guilty of this...

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

69. Unlikable me. What bothers me is the swarm.

Someone gets in a tiff and can't help themselves. Eventually, the likeminded swarm of adjitatators arrive and before long your post/thread is alerted. The swarm is the jury and soon you're locked out.

I don't care about being unlikable. I just wish the dozens of the people here who want to torpedo everything I say just put me on ignore. We all know who we our. But they won't. And they won't because they're the self-appointed yard duties.

What was the question?

Let me alert this and serve as my own jury:

Post is rude and singles out our swarm members. Hide

[ProfessorGAC]

3. Certainly Corredt

Wondering though Taz, if there isn't a worse situation when that person who has taken a dislike continues to get in your face about how much we suck. That seems to be beyond even enmity. At the least, it's highly aggressive enmity.

[Le Taz Hot]

4. Getting physically in my face

is a whole other thing. That doesn't have good results. But at 60 years old I don't remember the last time that happened to me and anyone who WOULD do that to a 60-year-old woman is a bully. Ultimately, that's on them.

[Thor_MN]

5. Not intending to get in your face,

but your comment could be taken to be sexist and ageist...

[Le Taz Hot]

6. Uh, huh?

[Thor_MN]

15. I believe that Bullying is defined on the actions of the attacker, not in any way on the victim.

The way you said it, an incident that you defined as bullying, might not be bullying, if the victim were younger or male.

There is a perception that bullying occurs on the weak (which I don't particularly agree with), but if one subscribes to it, you defined a 60 year old woman as weak. I'm certain you don't agree that 60 year old woman is weak.

[Le Taz Hot]

18. Well, that was an interesting insight

as to how your mind works.

[Thor_MN]

63. And apparently yours as well.

You claim that anyone who get in your face would be a bully. What if that person were a 61 year old woman? A 70 year old man?

When one claims exceptionalism for oneself, that is the definition of bias.

[JackInGreen]

28. It's self referential homey

Eom

[Thor_MN]

65. I have no idea what that means in this context. And I don't answer to "homey".

A Bully is a Bully and it doesn't matter who the victim is. To imply it's OK to say a thing to some people, but if you say the same thing to a person of a certain gender, age, orientation, race, whatever, is bullying, is wrong.

To say that you are drawing exceptions for your own circumstances is biased, I don't care who you are.

[H2O Man]

71. comic genius

[Glorfindel]

24. As a 70-year-old man, I agree with everything you said

[sibelian]

43. Happened to me literally yesterday...

Last edited Wed Aug 12, 2015, 02:51 PM - Edit history (1)

fur realz.

I'm standing outside an artists collective studio (was mucking about with portrait photography that aternoon) and some guy walks up and tells me not to touch his bike. I'm thinking "what bike?" and he points at his bike and I've gone nowhere near it, it's chained to the railing. I say: "WHUT?" and he gives me this big hand-waving gesture and repeats his message in slow careful words so I can understand: "DON'T. TOUCH. MY. BIKE."

Stupid cock.

[jonno99]

55. Just...wow...nt

[TeeYiYi]

68. I was thinking...

...'arrogant prick', but 'stupid cock' works.

TYY

[awoke_in_2003]

73. And don't touch my vaporizer

I'm wactching you

[sibelian]

83. Can I admire it from a distance...?

My goodness, it sure is a fine looking vaporizer...

drooool, can I lick it

[awoke_in_2003]

88. Bully

[Jamastiene]

87. I would have tried my best to turn that into a comedy routine.

Or, just answered, "Okay." with a look or

[Aerows]

60. For some odd reason

some of the best friends I've ever had started out disliking me and me them.

[Zorra]

64. For LGBT, that's the preface to the survival manual. nt

[sibelian]

80. Exactly so.

And I sadly suspect it will ever be so.

[wilsonbooks]

7. If someone chooses to dislike you for no good reason the best

thing to do is ignore them and move on. It is their problem and there is no way for you to solve it.

[jwirr]

41. On DU at least there is ignore.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

9. Some say only the guilty protest their innocence.

[Le Taz Hot]

11. So, what do the innocent do?

Protest their guilt?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

14. It means that, many times, those making claims on the power to

judge guilt or innocence merely do so for the cynical purpose of wielding the power to dispense punishment and reward according to their own subjective whims.

[Le Taz Hot]

17. "Many many times"

is different from all the time. I.e., sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. It's important to remember that point.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

19. So how does one discern the sincere from the cynical?

[Le Taz Hot]

20. Wisdom and an open mind.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

21. Wisdom and an open mind tell me

If someone has declared me an enemy and nothing I can do, let alone do reasonably, will satisfy their animosity then there is no value is seeking terms of peace. I will merely walk away from dealing with them.

[Le Taz Hot]

23. Walking away from dealing with them

is the healthy thing to do; however, that does not negate the cause for which they may be pleading.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

25. Then I will walk away from the cycincal and seek out the sincere because

those are the ones I want to share the world with. I don't want to merely call them allies in a common cause, I want to call them friends once our cause is won.

[Le Taz Hot]

27. And in a perfect world

that would be the ultimate goal. But that goal takes wisdom and open-mindedness from both parties and you can only control what your own actions and thoughts are. What the other person decides to do is up to them. Personally, I just try to focus on being a good human to everyone. I don't always succeed but that is the goal.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

30. That's pretty much what I work for.

[Vincardog]

58. If the cause for which they may be pleading has merit perhaps they might make

an effort to seek allies rather than enemies.

[WinkyDink]

13. Oh, those ubiquitous "Some"! (It's "protest TOO MUCH".)

[awoke_in_2003]

75. At least he didn't use "many"

Then the argument would be bulletproof

[sibelian]

44. Indeed they do.

People say all sorts of interesting things.

[awoke_in_2003]

74. Well, that settles everything then

[Nuclear Unicorn]

76. Too many nuances to unpack?

[sibelian]

81. There's "unpacking nuance"...

.... and then there's "making up a whole bunch of pointless crap to mask one's self-interest."

There's also "setting the threshhold of acceptability wherever you need it to be so that no-one can actually acheive it, legitimising one's innate sense of superiority in having the wherewithall to set the threshhold in the first place".

There's also "setting up an imaginary, silent audience on the inside of one's head that approves of everything one does so that one gets to behave however the fuck one likes"...

But my personal favourite is "Farting out sidelong, sneaky insults dressed up as analsysis for the sole purpose of characterising objections to the insults as tendentious".

Manipulative behaviour comes in a glorious cornucopia of self-absorbed, self-defeating, self-perpetuating forms, doesn't it?

[NuclearDem]

10. Natural enemies, BLM and Scots.

[davidpdx]

32. I wouldn't piss off Groundskeeper Willy

He's a mean SOB

[sibelian]

52. I don't think it would be fair to castigate all BLM because of Marissa + co.

It does annoy me when political persuasion is used to mask manipulative behaviour.

Anyway, the game I pointed out in OP pretty much forms the basic planks of the Scottish personality. We're an emotional bunch. There's no self-loathing like Scottish self-loathing, harhar...

[dgibby]

78. What about the Welch?

Self-loathing and morose. We throw some interesting family reunions.

[sibelian]

82. "Ahhhh, welcome home, Gareth..."

"Come in, my fine son, come in...

Wait a minute... you're Welsh! BUGGER OFF!"

[H2O Man]

72. Please!

Leave the Boy Scots out of this!

[Igel]

12. Ill will and mistrust breed ill will and mistrust.

For some it's a survival skill. Sometimes it's a big fight to distract from non-achievement (this is more a classroom/work team skill). Sometimes it's a culture that hasn't changed as circumstances have changed--a new team member from a combative (work) environment shows up and has trouble accepting that he doesn't need to be combative.


Confirmation bias will out. If you suspect somebody's trying to get you, you'll be on the lookout for any hint, any suspicion, that he's out to get you. You'll find all the evidence you need. Even if he has no such intention. The occasional slight, word misspoken, acts that can be misconstrued and non-acts that can be misconstrued, choice of friends.


We also tend to be blind concerning our own behavior. Once had a coworker tell us that everybody hated her, when she'd done nothing wrong--in fact, she'd done most of the work. She was completely oblivious to what she'd done that was nasty over the years, but hypervigilant when it came to slights against her. (As for "I did most of the work," usually people overstate their contribution--studies regularly show that something like 140% of the effort and output is accounted for if you look at how much effort each person or group says they contributed. She was an outlier.)




So that combative new team member at work probably doesn't even realize that (a) he's combative without cause and (b) alienating everybody around him, instead he just sees (c) people fighting with him and (d) confirmation that everybody hates him. Sometimes "reaching out" works; sometimes it's a lost cause.

Sadly, all too often that person views himself or herself as a hero: "You hate me because I'm a strong __________________." (To which the proper, yet all-too-unspoken reply is, "No, we just want you gone because you're an arrogant asshole and disruptive.&quot Also sadly, often the administration or office accommodates and treats the person with kid gloves--can't get rid of them, so humor them and reward the bad guy.

[sibelian]

61. Oh my GOD, how fucking irritating are these self-absorbed nitwits...

... and how many of them have I had to deal with over the years in the workplace?

Paranoid lunatics!

Not just the workplace, either.

"You hate me because I'm a strong __________________" - you are so bang on. Inside my mind, through gritted metaphorical teeth - "No, petal, I am trying to ask you politely to STOP abusing ME, thank you very much," it's "they hate us for our freedoms" all over again.

UGH. So much time and attention down the fricken drain with these vapid gnats... They leave the room and everything goes back to normal. They never have any idea how much useless junk they generate...

[hifiguy]

66. So true.

And if I had a dollar for every time I have seen that last paragraph play out right here in DU I would be eating a two-inch thick steak in the best steakhouse in town tonight.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

77. What irritates me is the trend for people to start acting like arrogant asses in business

as if that's a good thing, and something to be emulated. No, it's not good when you start acting like an 'alpha', they're all total jerks, and what would be good is for THEM to QUIT acting like that, not for other people to start.

[Blue_Tires]

16. Just embrace it...I've got plenty of enemies on here...

[sibelian]

62. I don't think I have any.

Plenty of people here I would quite happily ban, and they probably know who they are. I'm not convinced they'd be terribly interested in banning *me*.

Possibly.

[Blue_Tires]

84. oh, I'd purge about a quarter of the folks here in a heartbeat

[sibelian]

85. Maybe we're just bad people....

I don't know what to think about it, really.

It's just that sometimes the manipulation is so blatant...

[retrowire]

22. i would like to personally apologize on behalf of humanity

and its very dumb human nature.

[sibelian]

45. Then I shall I forgive *you personally*.

Will you forgive *me*?

[retrowire]

49. yes

[sibelian]

53. SWEET VALIDATION

[Orrex]

26. Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women.

[Le Taz Hot]

35. LOL!

Now that was funny!

[hifiguy]

67. "It is always good to forgive one's enemies

but not before they have been hanged." - Heinrich Heine

[JackInGreen]

29. I've had friends like that

BPD is a bitch. I'm glad I love em none the less.

[jalan48]

31. Maybe we will always be tribal in nature.

Identifying with a group against outsiders goes way back to hunter/gather days.

[1StrongBlackMan]

33. Funny! It also works like this ...

If I decide that you think I am your enemy ... Then, eventually, that's it. I AM your enemy, I my mind whether I like it or not.

I can attempt to persuade you otherwise, but if my attempts to persuade you otherwise are used by you to continue to persuade yourself of your original decision (and it is your decision), there is, in the end, nothing I can do.

That's how enmity works.

"You hate me!"

"No, I really don't."

"You're arguing with me! That means you hate me!"

Has there ever been a process more farcically manipulative and self-perpetuating?

[JackInGreen]

34. It's a saloon door

It swings both ways, often at odds, and usually precedes a brawl.

[1StrongBlackMan]

37. True; but my point was to point out ...

the one is based on the voice in my head; rather than, the voice being spoken to me.

I see a lot of that around these days. And it seems based in "I'm right! Why don't you agree with me ... you must hate me!"

[beerandjesus]

39. Great response

You and the OP are both dead-on, in my book.

Words to live by.


Thanks for this.

[mac56]

36. A friend once said:

"Half the people are going to like you half the time."

I was crushed at the time, but I think she was right.

[Kelvin Mace]

38. I consciously try not to hate people

it is an ongoing struggle.

[jwirr]

40. I think that might be what they mean when they call something a circular firing squad.

[hfojvt]

42. what if you declare that you are my friend

And yet we always get together at MY house where you eat my food and hog the remote? So after a few years of this, I decide to be a little more assertive. I ask for the remote and that you buy some of the snacks.

Then instead of stepping back and considering ways that you could be a better friend, you get all defensive and go on the attack and then say "well, if you have decided that I am an enemy, then there's nothing I can do about it."

Maybe there is. maybe there isn't.

Perhaps instead of saying "we ARE your allies" it would be better to say "we WANT to be your allies".

Let's be honest from the start. First, admit that we do not agree 100%. In an alliance between A and B, if it is an alliance of EQUALS, that means that A is not going to rubber stamp support everything B wants to do and vice versa. If we are allies though, there should be vast swaths of common ground. Perhaps we could be trying to find it.

Here, along with some other verbiage, is a list of the demands of BLM

http://dailyhowler.blogspot.com/2015/07/supplemental-two-approaches-after.html

[sibelian]

51. An excellent question! Yes, in your scenario, I am also responsible.

There follows the problem of who decides what the appropriate symbol or act of friendship might be. LOTS of relationships fall to bits through bargaining and pretending to agree so that you can get something else that you're not really talking about, (sometimes because you're hiding what you really want from yourself...) There has to be an "us". Much can be made of putting on faces and striking attitudes to coerce the pretense of respect instead of simply respecting one another. There has to be the thing we both want. If there's no "us" there's no friendship.

For me, the best gesture is one freely chosen and acceptable to both parties. It's very easy for one side to go off and choose what the friendship should look like without consulting the other.

TBH, I really was trying to avoid attributing the game I described in the OP to any one group as the game's kind of ubiquitous...

[Rex]

46. And that discribes the police abuse and murder we see here toward POC.

Cops decided (in the 1980s) that POC would always be the enemy - as if they NEEDED a common foe to rally against in the Name of $Authority$. They pretend the War on $Drugs$ is a honorable war being fought MOSTLY against 'evil' POC. AS IF they invented illegal drugs. AS IF POC want to bring down the State.

Enmity in the workforce of people that carry a firearm and a badge (and a lot of racism) will ALWAYS turn out bad for the victims. We see it happen or read about it daily now

A lot of comfirmation bias in LEO results in dead POC. IMO.

[sibelian]

48. Unquestionably.

It's universal, but it's much easier to direct the particular junk we're describing at powerless people than almost anyone else... smaller likelihood of consequences, see.

[Rex]

50. I agree and see that happen firsthand here in America.

Not just LEO, but most government institutions that can - always pick on the downtrodden and the most vulnerable in our society. Much easier for them to get their jollies on families that cannot fight back in our outside a courtroom.

The system works completely against those with the least and totally for those with the most.

Plutocracies work that way and I do believe that is partially why we see so much crime by LEO and other authority figures - without a single consequence for their actions. The State approves of their methods or will look the other way if need be.

ANYTHING to keep the status quo from changing, no matter how high the pile of dead bodies gets. No matter how hungry millions of children are at night when they try and sleep. No matter how wrong it is - American exeptionalism means never having to admit to being wrong.

IMO, America will fall one day because of hubris by authority figures that are faultless and corrupt from head to toe. Doesn't have to be that way, but we are on that path to Death by a Few Greedy White Men. And no law or government agency to stop them.

[LWolf]

86. Yes.

Your last line? My younger son has been telling me this since he was a teenager, and telling me that this is the reason he doesn't participate in our political process. I disagree with his choice, but it doesn't come between us. He's my son. And he's a white man.

Those in power stay in power by keeping the rest down. A big part of America's story is to pull up our bootstraps, work hard, and climb the ladder of social classes to "better" ourselves. Except that it's a myth, because there are ceilings in place to make sure that only a very few outliers are ever going to get very far.

Someone upthread said something about being tribal in nature; I've noticed that people form groups to feel secure, and that part of "feeling secure" always seems to involve seeing other groups as enemies, blatantly and subtly. Sometimes allies are like "Survivor" alliances; on the surface, for an immediate purpose, but nothing beyond that.

Here at DU, it's part of the identity to offer loyalty to one political group, while opposing the other. And I don't mean just opposing; it's considered acceptable, even laudable, to hate them, to attack them personally, to ridicule, call names, and hate, as well as opposing them politically. Yet I don't hate Republicans. I live among them, work with them, and manage to do so productively, and to see their humanity. When it comes to talking politics with them, I've found that, for most things, a slow trickle of ideas, just gently mentioning them and moving on, is more effective than a rant.

When it comes to movements to achieve change, I'll gather, march, demonstrate, and stand with anyone working to achieve positive change. I don't want to be an enemy; I want to be an ally. I'm hoping we can find a way to bridge our gaps.

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. There's a middle road.

I don't hate you, and you're entitled to a contrary opinion - but I'm not obliged to give it any merit or in fact even listen to it.

If your message is wrapped in a mandatory agreement to validate this opinion, I'm not accepting it.

I wish that more of the BLM microphones were given to the men who are being shot at and killed. I'd like to know if they're equally discriminating, hostile and defensive about who gets to be an ally.

[sibelian]

59. Yes...

The whole "if you don't agree with me that you're a racist/homophobe/misogynist, that PROVES you are" is farcical gibberish. It's just plain ignorant.

[seveneyes]

70. When A=B

It's all good until one tries to kill the other.

[seveneyes]

79. Esqueletos