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kairos12

(12,860 posts)
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 05:48 PM Sep 2015

The Pope says if you don't use your religious property for religious purposes than pay taxes

http://crooksandliars.com/2015/09/pope-francis-if-you-dont-use-property

snip:

ROME — On the eve of a trip to the United States, Pope Francis has called himself a “son of immigrants” and confirmed the point by issuing a blunt warning to any religious orders in Europe that spurn his recent call to open their doors to refugees because they want to make money off their properties instead.

What? Refugees instead of B and Bs or bingo. The Pope is violating someone's religious freedom.
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The Pope says if you don't use your religious property for religious purposes than pay taxes (Original Post) kairos12 Sep 2015 OP
I really like the Pope's message. How much is the Vatican sending? NCjack Sep 2015 #1
Pope Francis restructured the Vatican Bank. Which is more than anybody did for Wall Street. Octafish Sep 2015 #5
Impressive. How much is the Vatican sending? A Catholic fund raiser for NCjack Sep 2015 #10
Great question. Write to the Vatican and ask. Octafish Sep 2015 #11
OK -- I am. /nt NCjack Sep 2015 #15
His Eminence just went further down on Pat Robertson's s**t list. lpbk2713 Sep 2015 #2
How many cathedrals will he convert to mosques? JustABozoOnThisBus Sep 2015 #3
The Archdiocese of NY is the largest non governmental real estate holder in NYC, so when do they Bluenorthwest Sep 2015 #4
That's nice, but I'd prefer a different wording. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2015 #6
Can you give us a f'r instance of "preaching politics from the pulpit"? gratuitous Sep 2015 #12
Is your pastor suggesting specific people to you to vote for? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2015 #14
That would be nice. Nt abelenkpe Sep 2015 #7
I'd rather you have to pay taxes on your property Shoulders of Giants Sep 2015 #8
Yep. Arugula Latte Sep 2015 #17
How about all organizations. Igel Sep 2015 #18
False equivalency. Shoulders of Giants Sep 2015 #20
Some guy named Jesus once said... Xolodno Sep 2015 #9
They should pay taxes regardless if they use it for religious purposes Major Nikon Sep 2015 #13
Here's an idea: Open the Vatican coffers and give away all the gold to refugees. Arugula Latte Sep 2015 #16
As a long-lapsed Catholic, I gotta say, I really like this pope. Stinky The Clown Sep 2015 #19

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
5. Pope Francis restructured the Vatican Bank. Which is more than anybody did for Wall Street.
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 06:15 PM
Sep 2015

Not that he could appoint anyone to go after Banksters, but I'd trust him to. Reason why from the great DUer malaise.



Can Pope Francis clean up God’s bank?

by Paul Vallely
The Guardian, 13 Aug. 2015

EXCERPT...

At 6.30 on the morning of 28 June 2013 – just three months into the reign of Pope Francis – officials of the Guardia di Finanza, the Italian law enforcement agency for financial crime, pulled up in front of a rectory in Palidoro, a quiet seaside town west of Rome. When they rang the bell, the cleric who came sleepily to the door was informed that he was under arrest. A few hours later, wearing a well-cut grey suit, Monsignor Nunzio Scarano was shown into a cell in the Regina Coeli, Rome’s most overcrowded prison.

Scarano, a suave, handsome priest known for his extravagant lifestyle (his nickname among other priests was Monsignor Cinquecento, My Lord Five Hundred, because of his habit of carrying only €500 banknotes), was head of accounting at the Amministrazione del Patrimonio della Sede Apostolica (APSA) – the body that then managed the Vatican’s property holdings and controlled its purchasing and personnel departments. His arrest made front-page news. He was accused of trying to smuggle €20m on a private plane across the border from Switzerland in a money-laundering conspiracy involving the Vatican bank, an agent of Italy’s secret services and an Italian broker under suspicion for running a Ponzi scheme.

Doubts about Scarano had first been aroused six months earlier, when he had reported a burglary at his apartment in the city of Salerno, south of Naples. Paintings from his art collection had been stolen, he claimed. When the police arrived at the 17-room apartment on Via Romualdo Guarna, in one of the city’s wealthiest neighbourhoods, they were startled by its opulence. It was furnished with valuable antiques, and a spectacular display of art lined the walls in hallways divided by Romanesque columns. Scarano’s collection included a painting attributed to Chagall. Police reports estimated the missing artworks were worth €6m.

But the Scarano scandal had much wider implications. Investigators suspected that he had been operating APSA as a “parallel bank”, through which Italian VIPs could avoid taxes and the mafia launder the profits of illegal activity. Scarano denied it all but, just a few days after his arrest, two of the Vatican bank’s three top officials suddenly quit their jobs.

CONTINUED...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/13/can-pope-francis-clean-up-gods-bank



Paying fair share of taxes on what had previously been skimmed by who knows what is great for democracy, as well as the Church.

NCjack

(10,279 posts)
10. Impressive. How much is the Vatican sending? A Catholic fund raiser for
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 06:36 PM
Sep 2015

a disaster asked me for a donation. I asked him if the Vatican would match contributions for the project. He smiled knowingly at me and said that I Knew the answer. I said "money flows one way, to the Vatican". He nodded in agreement. Now, there is a new Pope and a new deal. So, my question is again: "How much is the Vatican sending?"

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
11. Great question. Write to the Vatican and ask.
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 07:12 PM
Sep 2015

If you do, please post their reply. From what I can see, the new Pope demands transparency in banking, unlike his predecessors.



Growth of Reagan's Contra Commitment

excerpted from the book

The Iran-Contra Connection

Secret Teams and Covert Operations in the Reagan Era


by Jonathan Marshall, Peter Dale Scott , Jane Hunter

South End Press, 1987, paper

EXCERPT...

P-2, the Republicans, and Ledeen

But P-2 had equally strong links to both the CIA and the Republican Party. Under President Nixon, the CIA allocated X 10 million for centrist and right-wing parties in the 1972 Italian elections. The U.S. Embassy in Rome was acutely divided over whether the money should go through Sindona, who appeared to have "a direct line to the [Nixon] White House," or Italian Intelligence Chief Vito Miceli, implicated in a 1970 CIA-financed coup attempt with delle Chiaie. Both Sindona and Miceli, as it happened, were part of the P-2 connection.

Sindona's U.S. investments were partnered by the Continental Illinois bank headed by Nixon's first Treasury Secretary, David Kennedy, and his interests were represented by the law firm of Nixon and his Attorney General John Mitchell. "In Italy, Sindona orchestrated the efforts of the neo-Fascist deputy Luigi Turchi to garner support for Nixon's election campaign. Sindona even offered S I million, on condition of anonymity, to CREEP treasurer Maurice Stans. The offer was refused." Turchi's efforts were co-ordinated by Philip Guarino of the Republican National Committee, a P-2 associate later implicated in the plotting to help Sindona escape prosecution.

We have seen how in 1980 Cline's associate, Michael Ledeen, published an article (at the beginning of the 1980 election campaign) "savaging Admiral Stansfield Turner for forcing Ted Shackley [one of Edwin P. Wilson's senior CIA contacts, a veteran of the anti-Allende operation] out of the agency. A year later Michael Ledeen, in his new capacity as the Reagan State Department's expert on terrorism, was now in a position to help close off the investigation of those (specifically Shackley and von Marbod) who were being investigated along with Edwin Wilson, perhaps the world's most notorious ex-CIA terrorist.

Ledeen's efforts in 1980 on behalf of Shackley were paralleled by a dirty tricks campaign on behalf of Reagan in alliance with P-2 members of the Italian intelligence service SISMI. The chief of these, Francesco Pazienza, was a financial consultant of Roberto Calvi at the Banco Ambrosiano. Pazienza was ultimately indicted in an Italian court (with Ledeen as an unindicted co-conspirator) for luring President Carter's brother Billy into a compromising relationship with Qaddafi during the 1980 presidential campaign. According to Edward Herman and Frank Brodhead, the prosecuting judge ...had evidence that "SISMI was the architect of the scandal over

Billy Carter," and that the material in this case was gathered mostly by Pazienza and by his American friend Michael Ledeen...." Pazienza availed himself of SISMI both for the use of some secret agents and for the expenses of organizing the scandalous plan. It seems that the organizers got a huge payoff for 'Billygate.' Moreover, [SISMI chief] Santovito [a P-2 member] and Pazienza got great advantages in return from American officials."

Ledeen published his Billygate stories in three pro-Israeli publications: the New Republic of Martin Peretz, and two journals controlled by Sir James Goldsmith, the chairman of the Banco Ambrosiano-linked oil company BRISA, and later one of the multimillionaires consulted by Reagan in his Project Democracy.

In 1980 Ledeen was also in high gear, allegedly again with assistance from Pazienza, as a propagandist for the notion of a terrorist threat requiring a beefed-up U.S. intelligence response. Given access in 1980 to a Czech defector from twelve years earlier (Jan Seina), Ledeen elicited from him the information, which Seina had never volunteered in his extensive CIA debriefing, that the Soviet Union maintained a network of terrorist training camps as part of its plan for global domination. According to Herman and Brodhead, Ledeen had Seina reaffirm the contents of a purported document on Soviet sponsorship of terrorism which Seina had willingly claimed to be authentic a decade earlier, and which was in fact a CIA forgery shown to Seina for the purposes of testing his credibility.

This document and corroboration then became central to the case built by Ledeen and his friend Claire Sterling to show that the KGB and Bulgarian drug traffickers had plotted to have the Turkish fascist Mehmet Agca kill the Pope. This story was of course augmented by the "confession" of the assassin, whose testimony was later discounted as not credible. This confession now appears to have been generated by P-2 SISMI agents linked to Ledeen, among whom may or may not have been Pazienza.'

What inspired Michael Ledeen's zeal on behalf of Reagan and the shadow network? European journalists have suggested that an unspecified "huge payoff" to the SISMI P-2 organizers of Billygate was followed by a payment of at least $120,000 plus expenses from SISMI to Ledeen in 1980-81, after Ledeen "sold old U.S. intelligence reports to SISMI at stiff prices." But there are indications that Ledeen had an affiliation, not just with SISMI, but (like his ally Pazienza) with P-2. There are unexplained stories that "Ledeen had links with Gelli...and that Ledeen, on behalf of the State Department, had tried to buy 480 P-2 files photocopied by the Uruguayan interior ministry" after a raid provoked by the P-2 scandal revealed by the investigation of Sindona.

It is obviously a convenient arrangement when P-2 contributions and favors to a right-wing U.S. President can be followed by the release of S 10 million in unvouchered CIA funds for political use by P-2. No doubt their knowledge of such arrangements must have fuelled the zeal of Carter and Turner to cut back on the CIA's clandestine services. Conversely, the CIA's cutback on clandestine operations and subventions spelled both political and financial disaster for parallel operations, such as Wilson's and Sindona's, which had fattened on CIA handouts. The end of U.S. intelligence subsidies to Wilson's company Consultants International is clearly responsible for Wilson's move into the illegal Libyan deals for which he was eventually jailed. The same drying up of the CIA cash flow to right-wing assets appears to have contributed to the failure of Calvi's Banco Ambrosiano; and of another intelligence-related bank whose operations interlocked heavily with Wilson's: the drug-linked Nugan Hand Bank of Australia. Thus CIA reforms had the effect of building a powerful coalition of both Americans (ousted CIA clandestine operators, the Taiwan-Somoza lobby, the ASC) and foreigners (WACL, P-2), determined to restore the clandestine operations which had been cut back by four different directors of central intelligence (Helms, Schlesinger, Colby, and Turner).

Whatever the details, it appears that the P-2 Republican connection remained as healthy in 1980 as it had been in 1972. Licio Gelli, the head of P-2, was invited by Republican bigwig Phil Guarino to Reagan's inaugural ball.

CONTINUED: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Ronald_Reagan/ReaganContraCommit_TICC.html



Pope Francis is serious about reform has changed my outlook for the future. The warmongers, child molesters, banksters and greedheads didn't think him possible. Personally, I like that. Gives me real hope for the future.
 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
4. The Archdiocese of NY is the largest non governmental real estate holder in NYC, so when do they
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 06:14 PM
Sep 2015

start to pay? Each Archdiocese has many properties, some have Land Asset Management Offices to oversee investment properties. Hawaii has much real estate, Los Angeles a ton. It goes on and on, and Francis is talking out of his miter. The Vatican itself owns lots and lots of high end commercial property all over the world, Bulgari stores are frequently leased from the Vatican, as is the case in London.
Let me know when Frankie cuts a check. Until then I will take the bigot's promises as the promises of a bigot.

I thought I'd add that the Papal summer palace at Castle Gondolfo was used during WW2 to house hundreds of refugess, it has more space than the Vatican, farm lands, apartments, houses and room for many, many people. Francis does not use it but neither do they open it to refugees. Will they pay the tax on this tourist attraction? Of course not. Pope Hot Air is all talk.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
6. That's nice, but I'd prefer a different wording.
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 06:16 PM
Sep 2015

Like 'If you use your religious property for non-religious purposes then pay taxes'.

Ie, if you're preaching politics from the pulpit, pay taxes.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
12. Can you give us a f'r instance of "preaching politics from the pulpit"?
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 07:20 PM
Sep 2015

Our congregation has many sermons and discussions about governmental policies, and how we would like to restructure our society so that it does a better job of feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, and taking care of the sick and imprisoned. We also undertake any number of programs to do those things, including dedicating part of our church grounds to a community garden where anyone can apply for a plot, and part of our church building given over for a day center for homeless families.

I guess we need to stop doing those things or start paying taxes, right? The pittance the local tax coffers would realize (my estimate is a low four figures annually) will hardly make up for the tens of thousands of dollars worth of office space and services the community gets right now for free.

Your proposal would appear to be a very costly and short-sighted change to the current system, and would result in more hungry persons and more homeless families.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
14. Is your pastor suggesting specific people to you to vote for?
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 07:39 PM
Sep 2015

Or using euphemisms, but so thinly veiled that you can tell exactly who he wants you to vote for?

How's that for a 'for instance'?

8. I'd rather you have to pay taxes on your property
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 06:21 PM
Sep 2015

regardless of if its used for religion or not. As an atheist, I'm tired of religion getting a free ride. Time to pay your fair share.

Igel

(35,300 posts)
18. How about all organizations.
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 10:05 PM
Sep 2015

I mean, the Nature Conservancy is sitting on a fair amount. Imagine the revenue that could produce.

Xolodno

(6,390 posts)
9. Some guy named Jesus once said...
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 06:31 PM
Sep 2015

....Give unto Caesar's what is Caesar's.

A Republican might degrade him as being "socialist".

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
13. They should pay taxes regardless if they use it for religious purposes
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 07:25 PM
Sep 2015

If they run a soup kitchen, they should get a exemption for that portion of their service, but there's nothing inherent in religion that deserves a tax exemption any more than any other special interest.

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