6 Surprising Ways to Curb Gun Violence That Have Nothing to Do With Gun Control

[Brickbat]

I've commented on several threads about how reducing gun violence is going to take more talk than just about guns. It takes long, hard discussions about our society; how we view each other; how we view ourselves; what the goals and purpose of our mental health, education and correctional systems are; how we accept casual violence and bullying, and so on. It ties in with things like the recent article from the Atlantic about why young Japanese children are able to run errands and move through cities by themselves, and this Facebook post from Jonathan Byrd.

I'll save you a click and list the six ways in the article:

1. Access to alcohol and drug treatment and rehab
2. Prison reform
3. Curbing the school-to-prison pipeline
4. Addressing structural racism and investing in young black men
5. Correcting income inequality
6. Addressing gender inequality and "macho" culture

I find it frustrating that wanting to talk about everything that goes into gun violence often gets a response of "No, it's the guns!" It's not just the guns -- and to pretend it is only ill serves people who are suffering in this country and kicks the problems our country is facing down the road.

The article:

http://mic.com/articles/126199/6-surprising-ways-to-curb-gun-violence-that-have-nothing-to-do-with-gun-control

[Duckhunter935]

1. Good list

[SharonAnn]

79. Yes, my question has been "What are we teaching/doing to young men?" They're the ones shooting.

[Duckhunter935]

80. Yes and I do really

That some sure are copying the others for the fame😢

[Turbineguy]

86. We are teaching them

to lust for power.

[sarisataka]

2. Just a sec

Let me get a chair. Ah, that's good.

[Brickbat]

4. I know, right? What the hell am I thinking.

Love the HHH quote, by the way.

[sarisataka]

11. Thanks, I quite admire HHH

Although I have been told in no uncertain terms he was an extremely poor excuse for a Democrat. His sin was a belief in the RKBA.

[Brickbat]

14. He would have seen the wisdom of this list, I think.

We grow them well here in MN.

[OneGrassRoot]

3. K&R n/t

[Hoyt]

5. Good article, yet it does nothing about yahoos arming up in today's society.

Maybe #6 would help dealing with right wingers arming up.

I suuport all 6 above, but there is more to this than that.

[lame54]

6. why can't there be 7 things?

[Brickbat]

7. Why, indeed?

What would you put?

[lame54]

9. all the things used listed AND gun control...

it's not either or

[Brickbat]

10. Oh, I see.

Definitely not either-or. But all equally important, IMO.

[whathehell]

67. But gun control first..

Too many would die waiting for the kind of social.changes listed by the OP.

[Duckhunter935]

76. And just what do you think can get

Passed and have an impact on these murders

[beevul]

98. We've been doing 'gun control' incrementally more and more for 80 plus years...

We've been doing 'gun control' incrementally more and more for 80 plus years.

Its time to put some focus elsewhere.

[whathehell]

102. Bullshit

We've gone BACK WARDS on the issue. We had a ban on assault weapons in the 1990's. The ban was

overturned through the efforts of the NRA. After Newtown a full NINETY THREE Percent of Americans wanted

to close the gun show loophole and implement more extensive background checks -- Ninety Three Percent, which

included gun owners and NRA members and Bought Off Congress REFUSED to pass anything.

When the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY want something as innocuous as stricter background checks on gun sales

and does NOT get it, you know you are not living in a representative democracy.

You're living in a corrupt oligarchy where only Bought and Paid Congressmen call the shots.

So, please. put a lid on the lame anti-gun control arguments. Every Psycho Boy with a Gun massacre

leaves them weaker and more pathetic.

[branford]

113. The 1994 AWB was not overturned, it expired.

The original law was controversial, and would never have passed without a sunset provision.

More importantly, there never was 93% of Americans who wanted more restrictions, and even the small bump in support for some gun control after Sandy Hook not only evaporated in weeks, but shortly thereafter support for gun rights and against further restrictions actually had a demonstrable net gain, and is still steadily increasing.

The "overwhelming majority" meme has always been a complete myth, and when there's been some support for further measures, it's always been a mile wide and an inch deep (see Gallup, Pew and other polls and information below). To many who support some gun control, it's a minor or ancillary political issue. Conversely, to many who oppose it, they'll vote aggressively on this issue alone, and they're in important purple and competitive states. Politicians know their constituents better that you or I.

The NRA money issue is yet another myth. The NRA-ILA donations are public information, and far less than most believe. Besides, the gun control lobby is quite well funded, including its pet billionaire, and has numerous organizations, celebrities, politicians and other notable constantly raising money and appearing before the media. For example, in the Colorado recall elections, Bloomberg and his allies outspent the recall backers by 6 to 1, and still lost decisively.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2015/oct/02/mass-shootings-have-no-impact-on-support-for-gun-rights-in-the-us

http://www.gallup.com/poll/179213/six-americans-say-guns-homes-safer.aspx

http://www.gallup.com/poll/179045/less-half-americans-support-stricter-gun-laws.aspx

http://www.people-press.org/2014/12/10/growing-public-support-for-gun-rights/

[whathehell]

114. and was not renewed due to the efforts of the gun lobby..

The only people for whom the gun law restrictions are "controversial" are gun nuts

and paid NRA lobbyists. End of story.

[branford]

115. So, to start, you were indeed wrong that the 1994 AWB was overturned.

Next, whether you like it or not, there are 80-100+ million legal gun owners in this country, representing more than 1 out of every 3 American adults, and most of them plus many millions of their supporters generally support gun rights, and this support is increasing.

The NRA has 5 million members, just 5-6% of gun owners. Politicians are only amenable to their views and policies because they're supported by so many of their constituents, and politicians like to be re-elected.

I've provided the unequivocal polling data from reliable (and some liberal) sources, but if you wish to keep your head in the sand and blame the big bad NRA boogeyman for all the myriad electoral, political and judicial failures of the gun control movement, that's certainly you prerogative. However, be forewarned, your denial and cognitive dissonance will get far worse as gun laws, policy and culture continue to liberalize across most of the nation.

The arrogant and patently incorrect belief that the "overwhelming majority" agrees with them has been the primary failing of much of the gun control movement. Rather than actually trying to convince anyone of the wisdom of their views, they belittled and demeaned an ever increasing majority of the country, alienating millions of voters in competitive areas in the process, and ensured that any compromises on nation gun control are a dead letter for at least a generation.

[whathehell]

116. "failure to reinstate" vs. "overturn" = being "indeed wrong"?

Seems a tad overstayed, but whatever.

It:s been real, Bran, but as I told people upthread, I'm not interested in these sorts of futile argument with gun, um, "enthusiasts" anymore so 'I've decided to put them on Ignore. This conversatipn os now officially over. Bye.

[mopinko]

8. yup yup. this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027229877

dropped like a stone.

[hunter]

12. What do items 1-5 have to do with item 6???

The gangsters in our community play by the same rules as the police. Shootings of random misidentified bystanders and and the mentally ill are always "accidents."

"Ooops sorry, we really didn't mean to shoot your perpetually clueless cousin. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time."

It's the gun culture people I most worry about. Some of them might really want to kill me!

[branford]

36. Most "gun culture" (i.e., rural culture) is quite distinct from the "gang culture"

noted in your post in largely urban areas with Democratic leadership and constituencies.

Moreover, when innocent bystanders are caught in crossfires, they are most certainly not considered "accidents." They are murders, and when locals actually cooperate with prosecutors and police, prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, usually with little mercy in sentencing in the event of a conviction.

[JDPriestly]

43. People don't cooperate with the police because they are afraid of crossing up the gangsters.

And once kids, young people, get involved even peripherally with gang-type people whether of the drug gang or white supremacist variety, they are afraid of speaking out. They know the price they will pay if they do.

[branford]

51. Everything you wrote is sadly consistent with my post.

There's a very big difference between purported "gang culture" and "gun culture," and our high rate of firearm violence is due far more to the former than the latter.

[JDPriestly]

70. Yes.

[hunter]

110. I know all about rural gun culture. My family has strong Wild West credentials.

Don't tell me "rural culture" isn't just another sort of gang. It's white, it's racist, and it's ugly.

In fact this rural U.S.A. gun culture is the origin of most problems in the U.S.A., and the reason we are not a true first world nation, just the world's most bad-ass "developing" nation; international gangsters with nuclear weapons. We have a lot in common with Mexico.

Read the post about Ronald Reagan. He himself was a gangster wannabe (the sort of fellow who was given a gun loaded with blanks and a script because he couldn't be trusted not to do something stupid) but he was the compliant and pretty face man of a very real thing:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027232147

[frazzled]

13. AND gun control

Don't forget the gun control legislation, which is sorely needed. A list of six things without sensible gun laws is still meaningless.

[sarisataka]

16. Is the reverse true?

Gun control without sensibly addressing social problems is meaningless?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

17. Absolutely

It's like taking aspirin without treating the sinus infection.

[kcr]

95. Why wouldn't you take the aspirin, though?

What would be the point of suffering in pain while you have the sinus infection? There is no way to make a sinus infection go away instantly. No treatment does that. Any treatment, no matter how effective, is going to take time. So you might as well take the aspirin whether or not you find and treat the infection. Those who can't understand the focus on gun control don't understand that it is focusing on a very bad symptom. That is what you're supposed to do. You don't wait to treat acute symptoms until the underlying cause is gone.

ETA I note your name, and realized too late but then again it's never a guarantee, especially on this topic, that people aren't being serious. If so, sorry about that.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

96. Nothing at all wrong with taking the aspirin

But it's meaningless without treating the underlying infection.
It's also not the best analogy.

There are some reasonable new guns laws that could help cut violence. I do feel that many laws some people want are a complete waste. Universal background checks (UBCs) are fine. Banning certain types of guns would be worse than useless.

Many pro-control folks own guns and many others support a total ban would never be in the same room with one. Some gun owners are in favor of strict control and others oppose any laws whatever.

[kcr]

109. Oh, not being sarcastic. Okay, so

Why would taking the aspirin be meaningless? It still takes care of the pain, so you would still do it.

There actually is nothing wrong with this analogy. It works to point out the flaw in the argument that there's no point in working on gun control if violence is a problem.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

111. Not dealing with the actual cause for the violence...

...does not improve things. Changing the violence from a gun issue to some other means is a waste of time.

[Eleanors38]

119. Hey, let's not relate names to seriousness!

[frazzled]

20. We must do both

But it's a lot like saying we have to focus on income equality, and racism will take care of itself. It is demonstrably untrue.

So it is the same with violence and guns. We need to address ways to alleviate violence in our country, but without addressing gun control, we're not going to get very far.

It's not a scary idea. Every other advanced country in the world has gun laws.

[Demeter]

30. Why, we'd look like socialist Scandinavia

where the drunk have to knife somebody to death, due to lack of firepower....

[Brickbat]

23. Well, this article was specifically looking beyond that.

I firmly believe that progress among those six would reduce gun violence, and in some cases may have already. There is much work to be done, however.

[JDPriestly]

46. Here is an article on the gun legislation that we have.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_the_United_States

And California's fairly strict gun laws.

he gun laws of California[3][4] are some of the most restrictive in the United States. A Handgun Safety Certificate—now a Firearm Safety Certificate—obtained by passing a written test, is required for handgun purchases, although there are exemptions to this requirement.[5] (This requirement was extended to long guns on January 1, 2014.)[6] Handguns sold by dealers must be "California legal" by being listed on the state's Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale.[7] This roster, which requires handgun manufacturers to pay a fee and submit specific models for safety testing, has become progressively more stringent over time and is currently the subject of a federal civil rights lawsuit on the basis that it is a de facto ban on new handgun models.[8] Private sales of firearms must be done through a licensed dealer. All firearm sales are recorded by the state, and have a ten-day waiting period. Unlike most other states, California has no provision in its state constitution that explicitly guarantees an individual right to keep and bear arms.[1] The California Supreme Court has maintained that most of California's restrictive gun laws are constitutional, based on the fact that the state's constitution does not explicitly guarantee private citizens the right to purchase, possess, or carry firearms. However, recent U.S. Supreme Court decisions of Heller (2008) and McDonald (2010) established that the Second Amendment applies to all states within the Union, and many of California's gun laws are now being challenged in the federal courts.[9]

California Penal Code §12031 defines what constitutes a loaded weapon).

Semi-automatic firearms that the state has classified as assault weapons, .50 BMG caliber rifles, and magazines that can hold more than ten rounds of ammunition may not be sold in California. Possession of automatic firearms, and of short-barreled shotguns and rifles, is generally prohibited.

California is a "may issue" state for permits to carry concealed guns. The willingness of issuing authorities in California ranges from No Issue in most urban areas to Shall Issue in rural counties. Additionally, the issuing authority can also impose restrictions on the CCW permit-holder, such as limiting concealed carry only to the purposes listed on the approved CCW permit application. However, concealed carry permits are valid statewide, regardless of where they were issued. This creates a situation where residents in presumptively No Issue locations such as Los Angeles and San Francisco cannot lawfully carry a concealed firearm, but residents from other counties with more permissive CCW issuance policies can lawfully carry within these same jurisdictions. California does not recognize concealed carry permits issued by other states, and non-residents are generally forbidden from obtaining a California concealed carry permit.

California has state preemption for many, but not all, firearms laws. Actual enforcement of California's firearms laws also varies widely across the state. Urban areas, such as the San Francisco and Los Angeles metropolitan areas strictly enforce firearms laws, and some communities within these areas have passed local ordinances that make legally owning a firearm difficult. Meanwhile, some rural jurisdictions narrowly enforce the same firearms laws by prosecuting only those who demonstrate malicious intent, or not enforcing portions of the state's firearms laws at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_California

We still had a shooting in San Francisco recently. Remember the kerfluffle over Trump's reaction to it.

We need much more than just more gun laws.

It is true. Switzerland arms its people. Hunting is very popular in Switzerland. Yet they don't have the problem we have.

[Coventina]

15. End the War on Drugs!!

It is the cause of some of the things listed, or at least a major contributor....

[GGJohn]

25. Yes it is. eom.

[branford]

39. Not only end the drug war,

but tax the hell out of drugs.

How else do you expect to pay for the OP's wish list of social programs?

[JonathanRackham]

18. Social justice!

Nice thread!

[GGJohn]

19. Great post.

Those 6 steps would do more to reduce firearm violence than most gun control measures.

[Brickbat]

21. I believe so, too.

And not only that, they would result in a stronger, more cohesive and healthier population. Wins all around. It's no fun to try to get into the head of someone willing to shoot someone else, but it's important, and it goes beyond "he's sick," I think.

[surrealAmerican]

22. It shouldn't matter if any of these have a measurable impact on gun violence.

They are all things we ought to be doing to achieve a more just society.

[Brickbat]

24. Absolutely.

And to know that doing so would pay off in less gun violence -- what a bonus.

[patsimp]

26. I don't think any of these would have stopped the last three massacres i'm aware of

but just as long as we don't control guns, right? Let's keep changing the subject.

[Brickbat]

33. Hard to tell.

I would actually like to modify No. 6 a little bit, to address our culture as a whole, which I why I linked to Jonathan Byrd's Facebook post. It reads, in part:

From my experience traveling in northern Europe consistently the past few years, I offer a theory that is beginning to take shape in my mind. I'm in the UK now; their gun laws are famously rigid. The Olympic pistol team had to leave the country to practice. Intentional homicide rate is maybe a third to a quarter of the U.S., but I don't think the stringent gun laws are entirely responsible.

More interesting to this essay are other countries I've been to regularly: The Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, and Switzerland. Canada is notably similar in that there are a lot of guns, but not much gun violence compared to the U.S. Almost every grown man in Switzerland has an assault rifle issued by the military. They have gun festivals with shooting competitions for the kids.

All these countries also take care of their citizens. You can go to school, see a doctor, or take a year off work and have a baby without worrying about losing your home or other financial catastrophes. Taxes are high, of course. Gotta pay for that stuff. Canada is closer on the scale to the U.S.: lower taxes and less social spending than most of northern Europe, but more than the U.S.

In the U.S. you are mostly on your own. If you have a strong family and/or community, you're set. If you don't you're screwed. 50% of foster kids become homeless when they turn 18. Three million U.S. citizens are homeless. That's one percent of us, sleeping on the ground, going to jail to get a decent night's sleep and breakfast. College? You know how that goes. I have friends in their forties who are finally paying off their student loans. Need mental health care? That's not covered. The ACA is not a national health care plan. It's a way to force everyone to pay for the same miserable shit that was available before. Very few people are better off with it. I'm one of them and I can still see it's a bad deal for the country. If you lose your job in the U.S., it can be life-threatening. How would you react to a life-threatening situation?

I would add to that how our culture perceives the other, and how quickly and willing we are to make others "others." You see it on DU. You see it on this thread. The willingness to forget other people's humanity in order to label them and dismiss them from any logical discussion.

People who read a mass shooter's manifesto and say, "What an animal; there was no hope for him," confirm his own hypothesis. I refuse to do that. It doesn't mean having sympathy for the devil. It means looking at the choices every person makes throughout every day that puts us all on different tangents and paths. Some people are pushed the wrong way every time, until they feel like there are no other options. It doesn't take much. But it doesn't take much to do the right thing, either, and we can all do it.

[JDPriestly]

40. Excellent post. And yes, Europe's social conscience makes it a less violent place.

Taxes are high, but how much is living in a safer society worth?

It's a choice.

Americans have chosen to live in a violent society rather than to live in a socially supportive society. I think that choice is wrong.

[Brickbat]

90. Agreed.

[GGJohn]

34. Firearms are already controlled and regulated,

and the OP's 6 steps are legitimate ways to help further reduce firearm violence, which is at a 20 year low.

[HereSince1628]

27. When it comes to blame, mental illness is high; when it comes to spending money

mental illness doesn't make the top 6?

Looks a lot like opportunistic bigotry against the mentally ill to me.

[MyNameGoesHere]

28. I can't be a murder enabler

so I will keep going for 0 gun ownership. But thanks for your "new" talking points on how to keep murder enabling alive and well.

[Brickbat]

35. Serious question, and I'm not trying to be a dick:

Why work for something that's totally unrealistic?

[Brickbat]

62. It's entirely possible I can change my mind. You haven't even tried!

People who know me are surprised how I've changed my mind on guns. But if you'd prefer to write me off as a "murder enabler" and to imply that people should die to achieve your ultimate wishes, that is your prerogative, I suppose.

[GGJohn]

75. Jury results.

I see.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7230939

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

OTT, hoping that gun owners die, this is a clear violation of the TOS.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sun Oct 4, 2015, 07:11 PM, and voted 5-2 to HIDE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Sure it is. But, we are nasty old gun owners. That stuff doesn't get a hide on DU.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This alert is a stretch. If you disagree with the poster, say so.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with alerter -- sounds like a death wish.

[Duckhunter935]

77. Good

It was over the top, surprisingly it actually was hidden

[Eleanors38]

121. Jesus hammering Christ! A hide!

[GGJohn]

65. So you approve of the murder of gun owners?

That's a sick and vile attitude and you should be banned.

[jack_krass]

94. Nice

mass murder as a "solution" to mass murder. At least this one's honest. Id wager that other on this board harbor simmilar, or worse, thoughts.

"We have met the enemy and he is us"

Is it making sense yet how sone gun owners might be paranoid?

[LAGC]

106. Holy $@#%!

Some of these gun-grabbers are beginning to become unhinged...

Showing their true fascist colors.

[GGJohn]

107. Yep.

I alerted on 2 posts yesterday that advocated the killing of NRA or gun owners, both were rightly hidden.

[Eleanors38]

122. "There will be no fighting in the War Room!"

[LanternWaste]

112. Like peace?

"Why work for something that's totally unrealistic?"

Like peace?

[GGJohn]

38. Well, let's see,

I own firearms and I'm not a murder enabler.
That is so childish and moronic.

[MyNameGoesHere]

50. I didn't see your "list"

of new ideas for stopping murder enablers, so I am sure you weren't included. However now that you have responded I can only assume you are an enabler as well.

[GGJohn]

56. Then you haven't looked.

I've posted them several times during my time on DU.

And your post is still childish and moronic.

[ion_theory]

29. K&R. Unfortunately, the Right is against all of those and just cries 'moral fortitude'. n/t

[Hoyt]

31. Sounds too much to me like we are putting the blame on minorities. How's about people like this?

[BuelahWitch]

37. I agree with you

How do any of those points deal with the young, white, middle/upper middle class men who are usually behind the guns?

[Brickbat]

44. Usually behind which guns?

[BuelahWitch]

48. The Columbine, Aurora and Sandy Hook shootings

to name three. I don't research ALL the shootings, but it seems a great deal of them are committed by young, white men from middle to upper middle class homes.

[Brickbat]

53. Oh, so you're interested in looking only at mass shootings?

[BuelahWitch]

60. Not "only"

But it should be part of it. Only option #6 on your list comes close to addressing these young men.

But I guess you don't think it's an issue, so...

[Brickbat]

66. It's absolutely an issue, and there are definitely additions that can be made to this list.

No. 6 certainly addresses some of those mass shooters. The way this country addresses mental health does as well. The way society treats people who are "different" also does. There are many, many ways to do better by people. What would you add?

[BuelahWitch]

71. Addressing mental health is a good start

I'm not a psychologist or sociologist. I just know that mass shootings seemed few and far between before Columbine. What happened in our society to make our young men want to grab a gun and kill random people?

[Brickbat]

74. "What happened in our society to make our young men want to grab a gun and kill random people?"

An excellent question. I think No. 6 talks about that, but I also think 1 and 5 have a lot to do with it as well. A sizable segment of our population doesn't have a whole lot of hope in this country, and hasn't for, in some cases, a couple of decades. It's a long, knotty problem that is going to take a lot of time, money and resolve.

[Eleanors38]

124. "White men..." Please look at who is behind the murders in Chicago.

It disturbs me that when "gun deaths" is discussed it is almost ALWAYS in the context of the mass murders (now termed "mass shootings" to pump up the volume) in public settings. This enables the perpetrators be be labeled "white," which for a variety of reasons sets up a safe narrative for social criticism and moral condemnation. Rarely do we here in DU's gun (control) threads talk about the virtual splatter fests taking place in parts of Chicago, L.A., N.O., Baltimore, Richmond Ca, etc. where the perpetrators are usually Not "white."

This simultaneously distorts any meaningful discussion of criminal violence in this country, and devalues the lives of non-whites and solutions unique to their communities. While you are correct in focusing on male attitudes and culture, it is much more than "white males." It seems a hideous irony that as with so many other inequities in society, a greater "value" on the schoolyard spectacular is accorded than on the nightly grind in some of our cities. It's another form of "white privilege" that needs to go.

[branford]

47. Do you really want to review crime statistics,

and dig into the demographics of the vast majority of gun violence? You don't.

The young white men involved in mass shootings represent a fraction of the overall death and injuries from firearms.

If you want to make a real dent in the crime statistics, the focus needs to be on places like Detroit, Oakland, Baltimore, Newark and Chicago, not the statistically rare mass shootings adored by the bean counters in the media.

[Hoyt]

72. Branford, I'm talking about the white racists who are the main ones arming up. They are who

the NRA targets, as well as gun marketers hawking tactical, assault weapons, and the like. I'd be willing to bet they account for your clientele too.

The 6 items above are key to social equality, but do nothing for the majority of callous, often racist, folks who stock gun safes full, get permits to strut around on city streets, promote guns, spout racist insults, etc.

[branford]

82. The purported "white racists arming up" represent a very small fraction

of firearm violence. The demographics of firearm crime are easily accessible on the BJS and FBI websites (and elsewhere on the web). You should rely on hard data rather than your skewed perceptions and biases.

The OP was also about policies to reduce firearm violence other than gun control, not your personal bugaboos about the NRA.

As to my client base, I do and have represented an enormous range of people and organizations in my career. Everyone from local union chapters and various minority members in employment discrimination cases or disabled individuals seeking access to commercial establishments to wealthy business owners (of many races and nationalities) and international insurance and banking conglomerates. When I worked for the NLRB (Region 29 in Brooklyn) early in my career, I primarily dealt with inter-union disputes and elections. As my practice is primarily in New York City and the surrounding metropolitan area, militia-types are not a large demographic seeking my legal acumen, nor am I called upon to deal with firearm-related issues in a professional context.

[Rex]

87. Wasted words.

Some here stay blind to the culture of death so they can sleep easier at night.

[Brickbat]

89. So are you looking to end gun violence, or end "arming up"?

[Hoyt]

92. That's part of reducing gun violence, ask Australians. Gunners sure aren't interested in ending

anything but threats to easy access to gunz and toting. Ask Community leaders and parents in areas where gang and drug wars are common, how they feel about gunz. They are much more against guns than your typical gun fancier posting here or at gun websites.

[DashOneBravo]

97. Of course you talk about that

The other violence is a little too close to home.

How many people where shot / killed in Chicago last weekend? More than the shooting in Oregon. If that had been some of my family in Chicago I'd be pretty pissed off. But it doesn't even get a mention here.

Why's that?

[Hoyt]

127. Another gunner trying to switch the subject to gangs, typical. They probably got their gunz from

gunners like you. The Chicago killings are localized, of course the white folks are scared to death and want more gunz.

Your arming up does nothing to quell the violence in the poor neighborhoods in Chicago or elsewhere, so try some other rationale for your bad hobby.

[Eleanors38]

125. We know that's all you focus on. nt

[HereSince1628]

69. ~300 mass shootings in 2015 over 220 shooters remain unknown.

That's ~70 percent of the shooters being unknown.

How if we only know 30%-ish do we confidently blame young white middle class kids?

Look at the mass shooting tracker website. Check out the stories that go with the incidents. It looks a lot more balanced than just white middle class men

[Brickbat]

42. Well, in most states, gun homicides of blacks is much higher than that of whites.

[Hoyt]

59. Well, for the most part guns are available because of the white folks arming up, not to mention

many of today's gun proponents are racists. Gunz are stolen, or some trafficker makes a killing off guns, or some guy who is an "infrequent" seller of guns unloads them at a gun show without background checks, or they are transported from areas with lax gun laws to tougher gun law states.

And, in case you haven't noticed, the mass shootings are almost universally white folks.

Again, those 6 above will help the shooting in poor areas -- which are most likely related to drugs and poverty -- but will do nothing for the yahoos who think this is a war zone, or we need to take the White House back from Obama, or lets get ready for the next time starving/dying people try to escape across a bridge after a hurricane, or are just racists, etc.

[jeff47]

61. In small numbers. Mass shootings are dominated by whites.

There's more small number homicides, largely due to fucked up schools, judicial system and the joys of the drug war.

However, the people committing mass shootings are overwhelmingly white males.

[JDPriestly]

64. I agree with you on this, Hoyt.

A young black man is nearly five times more likely to be killed by a gun than a young white man and 13 times more than an Asian American man. These numbers, dramatic as they are, actually understate the problem. If a black person is killed by a gun, it is judged a homicide 82 percent of the time. For the broad population, most gun deaths are ruled accidental or the result of suicide; only 34 percent of gun deaths are attributed to murder.

. . . .

Malcolm Gladwell recently argued in the New Yorker that many racial and ethnic groups experience a phase of violence over the years and that crime and violence ordinarily subside after a generation. That isn’t happening for young black men, he said, because the legal system has become more aggressive, sending more people to prison. That, in turn, may be prolonging the cycle of violence.

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-08-20/the-stark-statistics-on-young-black-men-and-gun-violence


Of the 12,664 murder victims in 2011 for which supplemental data were received, most (77.6 percent) were male. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 1.)
Concerning murder victims for whom race was known, 50.0 percent were black, 46.0 percent were white, and 2.6 percent were of other races. Race was unknown for 175 victims. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 2.)
Single victim/single offender situations accounted for 48.4 percent of all murders for which the UCR Program received supplemental data. (See Expanded Homicide Data Table 4.)
Of the offenders for whom gender was known, 89.3 percent were males. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 3.)
Of the offenders for whom race was known, 52.4 percent were black, 45.2 percent were white, and 2.4 percent were of other races. The race was unknown for 4,077 offenders. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 3.)
Of the homicides for which the FBI received weapons data, most (67.8 percent) involved the use of firearms. Handguns comprised 72.5 percent of the firearms used in murder and nonnegligent manslaughter incidents in 2011. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 8.)
In 2011, in incidents of murder for which the relationships of murder victims and offenders were known, 54.3 percent were killed by someone they knew (acquaintance, neighbor, friend, boyfriend, etc.); 24.8 percent of victims were slain by family members. The relationship of murder victims and offenders was unknown in 44.1 percent of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter incidents in 2011. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 10.)
Of the female murder victims for whom the relationships to their offenders were known, 36.5 percent were murdered by their husbands or boyfriends. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Tables 2 and 10.)
Of the murders for which the circumstance surrounding the murder was known,
42.9 percent of victims were murdered during arguments (including romantic triangles) in 2011. Felony circumstances (rape, robbery, burglary, etc.) accounted for 23.1 percent of murders. Circumstances were unknown for 38.0 percent of reported homicides. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 11.)
Law enforcement reported 653 justifiable homicides in 2011. Of those, law enforcement officers justifiably killed 393 felons, and private citizens justifiably killed 260 people during the commission of a crime. (See Expanded Homicide Data Tables 14 and 15.)

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expanded-homicide-data

[Hoyt]

73. Excellent post. Sooner or later agreement on something was bound to happen. :)

[Fred Sanders]

32. And gun control...you forgot the best one! Ask Australia....it WAS the best one of them all!

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/10/how-australia-and-britain-tackled-gun-violence.html

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

41. What's your answer to this simple question.

Do you really need a gun?

[GGJohn]

45. What does need have to do with the RKBA? eom.

[Brickbat]

58. When it comes down to it, what do any of us really need?

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

93. Water, food shelter and health care.

The very short list.

[Dems to Win]

49. I'll go for that, plus more:

Paid family leave so parents can bond with infants

Much higher wages so a family can live on one income, allowing attention for children

Eliminate all pesticides (implicated in the explosion of emotionally troubled young people)

Seriously get the lead out of every building in the US (lead poisoning makes ppl violent)

First step: Elect Bernie Sanders, work together to create a society where *EveryOne Matters*

[Brickbat]

54. I like your thinking. nt

[Eleanors38]

126. ^^^ I'm on board.

[deathrind]

52. Nice list but...

Fact of the matter is some items on it are changes that are going to take generational changes in mind sets before becoming reality...and we simply cannot wait that long.

We need legislation now in terms of ownership accountability / background checks / waiting periods / limits on mag caps / safety awareness / security etc to shore up gaps in the current system to reduce the carnage we are seeing and hopefully keep the number at "only" 45 school shootings for this year and ideally 0 (one can hope) next year...

[Brickbat]

57. "We simply cannot wait that long."

The changes that some people push -- including people on this thread -- would take as long, if not longer, as in never.

[Rafale]

63. +1

Good approach that would truly change the game in favor of our humanity.

[Brickbat]

68. "Good approach that would truly change the game in favor of our humanity."

Well said. That is what it takes to get it done.

[Binkie The Clown]

78. 7. Outlaw ammunition. n/t

[GGJohn]

84. Not possible,

SCOTUS has already ruled that ammunition is part and parcel of the 2A, and besides, millions upon millions of Americans reload their own ammo, that horse has long ago left the barn.

[Paladin]

81. No surprise that our resident Gun Enthusiasts love this listing.

All six of those goals are the sort of wildly expensive, hard-to-accomplish, worthy-sounding goals that pro-gun advocates have proposed for years, as a means of directing attention away from the very real problem of gun misuse in this country. Nothing new, here.

[branford]

83. And yet, the list is still probably more realistic

than the expressed wishes of many here on DU about repealing the Second Amendment and then confiscating 300+ million firearms from otherwise law-abiding Americans.

At least the OP's list could generate far more national consensus than most of the draconian (and often ineffective) gun control policies espoused by many here and would actually address some root causes of violence rather than the chosen tools.

[LWolf]

85. I like this listing, and I'm no gun enthusiast or pro-gun advocate.

For the record: I've never owned a gun, and never wanted to. I have felt unsafe with family members that owned guns, in an earlier part of my life.

I'm all for strict gun control measures. I also know that truly addressing the problem requires more, and this list is a good start.

Gun control + the things the OP mentions...and I'd add something stronger, and more explicit, for the "macho" gun culture.

I don't mean the people in my rural area that keep guns, and fill the freezer with legally hunted game every winter.

I mean the para-military cults that gather in isolated places and train, the private citizens that show up to "patrol" borders, or to show off their permitted guns in public demonstrations. I'm not sure what more can be done about them; for them, limiting their access to guns is the place to start.

It's a good place to start for the rest, too, but it would be a mistake to think that stricter gun control alone solves the problem.

[sarisataka]

88. Damn that expensive

Liberal agenda of equality and social justice. Let's just ban guns.

Trying to fulfill that list would take too long and cost way too much.
*
*
*
*

Wait, isn't this Democratic Underground?

I thought we support equality and social justice even if it is hard to achieve and will be expensive.

[Brickbat]

91. "Wildly expensive, hard-to-accomplish, worthy-sounding goals."

Worthy sounding? But not worthy? Is this DU or not?

You speak of "gun misuse" -- so is the gun the issue? Or is the issue the use of it by people who are troubled and hurting and without hope?

[beevul]

99. None of us "resident Gun Enthusiasts" have a problem talking about gun misuse...

None of us "resident Gun Enthusiasts" have a problem talking about gun misuse in this country.

We simply object to the tendency of you on the other side of the gun issue to ignore the context of the actual problem, that its a tiny minority of owners misusing a tiny minority of the guns.

[hack89]

103. A national anti-suicide campaign would significantly reduce gun deaths

And would not be wildly expensive. But we know it is really all about the gunz. That is all that matters to you regardless how hard to accomplish it is to actually do.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

104. No surprise that our resident gun grabbers hate this listing

All six of those goals are the sort of wildly expensive, hard-to-accomplish

By way of comparison, here's what the gun grabbers think they can accomplish --

1. Get the electorate on-board.

However, Colorado's experience is that a restriction on magazine capacities led to 2 state senators being recalled for the first time in state history. A third resigned to avoid recall only to see the seat go to the GOP. In 2014 the Democratic party lost the state legislature to the GOP and lost a federal senator. Now the last remaining Democratic senator is polling even with any GOP challenger in 2016. Currently even modest gestures towards more gun control are enough to turn blue states red even though gun control advocates outspend RKBA advocates 6:1.

2. Propose and pass an amendment to the federal constitution.

Again, judging from the electoral body count you'll be waiting a long time.

3. Deal with 44 states that have their own RKBA protections.

You just can't wave away state constitutions and many states will ignore a federal law just as CO, WA and OR ignore federal law when it comes to recreational marijuana.

4. Figure out where the guns are.

That would require registration and so far it's estimated that 90% of gun owners subject to recently imposed registration laws have declined to register their weapons. I'll hazard a guess and suggest they do not trust registration laws, seeing them as a gateway to confiscation.

And they would be right.

5. Collect the guns

Here's the real sticky wicket.

First, if you don't know where they are you can't go get them.

Even if you do know where they are you can't just go get them because you cannot seize property without due process.

Nor can you gain access to the premises without probable cause.

Even if you knew where the guns were, had claim to them under due process and had probable cause to go get them you would need a force large enough to do so. Returning to the example of Colorado we see a state that surrendered its Democratic majorities in return for a law that virtually no county sheriff will enforce.

So who will enforce this law? The US military? That would be a violation of posse comitatus -- and the start of the second civil war -- assuming the military even obeyed the order.

6. Keep new guns out

If there's money to be made and money is available from demand someone will provide the product regardless of how many local, state and federal agencies are arrayed against them (see, The War on Drugs).

Then there are those who can build their own guns in their garages. You can't criminalize machinist tools, their application is too broad and too important to the economy.

Do you plan on building Trump's wall? Do you want to imprison people who would use a gun in instances of legitimate self-defense? More SWAT raids (with the occasional flash-bang grenade in the baby crib)? A larger prison industrial complex?

Assuming you didn't first relegate the Democratic party to the dustbin of history (see, Point 1).


How about setting aside overly simplistic fantasies and dealing with the actual causes behind spree killers?

[LAGC]

105. I find it even more amazing...

How so many who (rightly) heavily criticize the police for being heavy-handed and unfairly targeting minorities, are suddenly BFFs with them, wanting them to go door-to-door to violate some 4th Amendment rights en masse.

There's some serious cognitive dissonance going on in some of these gun-grabbing proposal threads...

[Nuclear Unicorn]

108. They also find it in their hearts to find common cause

with a Republican billionaire whose policies disproportionately impacted minorities for criminal prosecution and surrounds himself with heavily armed mercenaries.

[lovemydog]

100. Excellent article.

I'm in favor of all these things AND stronger gun control.

[Kurska]

101. 1. Should be more expanded

We need more mental health care in general and it needs to be more accessible. We also need to destigmatize the idea of seeing a therapist. I genuinely wonder how many of these shooters still would have gone through with their violent acts if they were actively seeing a therapists.

[Brickbat]

117. Kicking this for the hell of it.

[Decoy of Fenris]

118. Looks like you kicked the hornet's nest here, mate.

Every person who wants "gun control" ostensibly for the purpose of saving lives... Doesn't actually want to save lives, it seems. They only care about the gun. Sort of seems as if they have some sort of fetish... for guns...

Wait a minute.

[Brickbat]

120. Right in one.

This purely American problem is about so much more than guns. So much more.

[Decoy of Fenris]

123. Good luck getting that message through, mate.

I pitched almost the exact same series of issues in relation to why violence was often the first and last resort. I was met with only mockery and derision; people didn't care about actually helping at-risk people, they only cared about guns. It's like they've never even thought about the concept of violence and rampages being symptoms of something other than firearms. It was... very sad to say the least. True progress towards ending both rampages and "Casual" crimes of violence is literally beyond the thought process of many on the Control side of things.

Of course, it doesn't help that the right-wing loonies on the other end of the spectrum give the left-wing loonies so much ammo to work with. Still, we have to keep trying.

[Brickbat]

128. There are a lot of conversations to have when it comes to reducing gun violence, but I'm finding

that this forum generally just wants to have one of them. So frustrating.

[Decoy of Fenris]

129. Pretty much.

Still, we have to keep at it. Sometimes doing the wrong thing is far worse than doing nothing; it's our job as people and as a species to prevent that and encourage positive growth, no matter what the knee-jerk reaction is.

[Brickbat]

130. We agree.