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LiberalArkie

(15,715 posts)
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 06:40 AM Oct 2015

The WWII-Era Plane Giving the F-35 a Run for Its Money



On December 5, 2001, an American B-52 flying tens of thousands of feet above the ground mistakenly dropped a 2,000-pound satellite-guided bomb on an Army Special Forces team in Afghanistan. The aircrew had been fed the wrong coordinates, but had the plane been flying as low and slow as older generations of attack planes did, the crew might’ve realized their error simply by looking down at the ground.

It was not long after the Twin Towers fell, and American soldiers were killed in Afghanistan by an American bomb dropped by an American plane. That this mistake happened illustrates just how poorly the air campaign in the United States’ longest war was executed, and how efforts ultimately failed to make things better by going after high-tech solutions that aren’t what they’re cracked up to be compared to the old tried and true technology.

That bomber was on a 30-plus hour round trip flight from the remote island of Diego Garcia, 900 miles south of India. The plane those Green Berets really needed, the low-and-slow flying A-10 Warthog, wasn’t available yet in Afghanistan. Famously rugged and even more famously lethal, the Warthog was the first American jet to actually land at the decrepit Bagram Airfield. Soon after the runway was repaired, many dozens of F-15, F-16, and F/A-18 fighter jets—wholly different creatures—came streaming in.

According to former Defense Department official Pierre Sprey, the US Air Force could have left those other jets out, had they sent three full squadrons of A-10s—72 planes total—to Afghanistan instead. But Sprey says the Air Force “never had more than 12 Warthogs in-country at any given time during the entire war.”

Snip

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/low-and-slow
42 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The WWII-Era Plane Giving the F-35 a Run for Its Money (Original Post) LiberalArkie Oct 2015 OP
That is NOT a Warthog-THIS is. hobbit709 Oct 2015 #1
Absolutely the most fearsome plane in any Air Force in the world Recursion Oct 2015 #2
Damn things use to strafe us in training. trumad Oct 2015 #6
1972 isn't really "WWII-era" Recursion Oct 2015 #3
I guess any time before the author was born... malthaussen Oct 2015 #5
Since you pasted the FIRST 4 paragraphs TexasProgresive Oct 2015 #4
Quote paragraphs can be from any part of the story... Octafish Oct 2015 #9
That's what I though as well TexasProgresive Oct 2015 #13
The rule is 4 paragraphs, but they can come from anywhere in the story... JHB Oct 2015 #11
What I thought TexasProgresive Oct 2015 #14
P-47 Thunderbolt was a World War II fighter plane used also for ground support and attack. Octafish Oct 2015 #7
read the artlcle dembotoz Oct 2015 #8
I don't knows what that is, but this is what they need. Rex Oct 2015 #10
It's a Brazilian A-29 Super Tucano turboprop built in the 21st century Brother Buzz Oct 2015 #15
No doubt, go to the link and look at the nose of the A-29. Rex Oct 2015 #16
Yes, the A-29 nose art is a hat tip to the Flying Tigers and maybe even John Wayne Brother Buzz Oct 2015 #17
Oh me too, I remember watching them mow down treelines at Fort Drum. Rex Oct 2015 #20
The Army should get back into the fixed wing business by glomming onto all those Air Force A10's Brother Buzz Oct 2015 #22
No way am I an expert on aircraft. Rex Oct 2015 #23
The Army never operated the A-10 Brother Buzz Oct 2015 #24
Interesting. Rex Oct 2015 #25
I'm guessing Air Force jockeys were flying them. Brother Buzz Oct 2015 #26
Not from where I was, we just saw the planes at a distance. Rex Oct 2015 #34
Correct, the Army operates very few fixed wing aircraft, GGJohn Oct 2015 #28
I bet you dimes to donuts those CGS helicopter pilots.... Brother Buzz Oct 2015 #31
Certainly not, GGJohn Oct 2015 #36
A better selection of quoted text... JHB Oct 2015 #12
Why would you want to buy that plane oneshooter Oct 2015 #19
We called those Sandy's in Vietnam, GGJohn Oct 2015 #30
Lots of hang time, and can carry oneshooter Oct 2015 #37
Yep. GGJohn Oct 2015 #39
So I haven't seen anything this new bird can do oneshooter Oct 2015 #40
And do it much cheaper. GGJohn Oct 2015 #41
Terrible Article catnhatnh Oct 2015 #18
There are aleast six of these Wellstone ruled Oct 2015 #27
All new generation aircraft have problems, GGJohn Oct 2015 #29
The F-35 will never be cost-effective. leveymg Oct 2015 #32
This boon Wellstone ruled Oct 2015 #35
The Super -T has survivability problems... Adrahil Oct 2015 #21
The P-47 was actually much better suited to fighter-bomber role, and 125 knots faster. leveymg Oct 2015 #33
This was a hell of a Fighter/Bomber also. GGJohn Oct 2015 #38
What am I missing? Snobblevitch Oct 2015 #42

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
2. Absolutely the most fearsome plane in any Air Force in the world
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 06:57 AM
Oct 2015

At least to those of us on the ground. I've done training evolutions with Warthogs. Holy crap. What they are capable of is amazing.

If they fire their cannon for too long, the recoil actually makes the plane stall.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
3. 1972 isn't really "WWII-era"
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 07:01 AM
Oct 2015

Though I totally agree with the thrust of the article. We need less money on boondoggles like the JSF and more attention to close support platforms like this.

TexasProgresive

(12,157 posts)
4. Since you pasted the FIRST 4 paragraphs
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 07:20 AM
Oct 2015

no one reading your post would realize that the plane in the picture is not the A-10 Warthog in your post. Is it a rule that you can only post the 1st 4 paragraphs to be fair use? Or can one post any 4 paragraphs?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
9. Quote paragraphs can be from any part of the story...
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 10:07 AM
Oct 2015

Two from the beginning...one from the middle...one from the end...or any combo.

TexasProgresive

(12,157 posts)
13. That's what I though as well
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 10:59 AM
Oct 2015

There are a lot of posts like this one where the poster only pastes the 1st 3 or 4 paragraphs that don't tell the story and you must click the link to find out. Perhaps that is their reason, but I don't like it. It is a step in the wrong direction from just posting a link. Those I ignore.

JHB

(37,160 posts)
11. The rule is 4 paragraphs, but they can come from anywhere in the story...
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 10:43 AM
Oct 2015

...and in this case should have.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
7. P-47 Thunderbolt was a World War II fighter plane used also for ground support and attack.
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 10:02 AM
Oct 2015


Perhaps the author made a mistake regarding the name's origin and its return as the A-10 Thunderbolt II. Kids.

Brother Buzz

(36,426 posts)
15. It's a Brazilian A-29 Super Tucano turboprop built in the 21st century
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 11:13 AM
Oct 2015

It can run circles around the P-40

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
16. No doubt, go to the link and look at the nose of the A-29.
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 11:16 AM
Oct 2015

Everyone wants to be a Flying Tiger. +}

Brother Buzz

(36,426 posts)
17. Yes, the A-29 nose art is a hat tip to the Flying Tigers and maybe even John Wayne
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 11:29 AM
Oct 2015

But this former Ground Pounder would feel safer if I had this nose art flying above me:


 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
20. Oh me too, I remember watching them mow down treelines at Fort Drum.
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 01:02 PM
Oct 2015

It's like a flying tank, but scarier imo.

Brother Buzz

(36,426 posts)
22. The Army should get back into the fixed wing business by glomming onto all those Air Force A10's
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 01:16 PM
Oct 2015

Hell, the KISS Warthog is so simple and bulletproof, even an Army mechanic can keep their bestest 'friend in the sky' flying.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
23. No way am I an expert on aircraft.
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 01:22 PM
Oct 2015

But the A-10 seems to be the best air-to-ground fighter ever made. I can't believe they are in short supply, did the Army discontinue using them? ETSd in 1998, so no doubt a lot has changed since then.

Brother Buzz

(36,426 posts)
24. The Army never operated the A-10
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 01:48 PM
Oct 2015

The Army was pushed out of the fixed wing business when the Army Air Corps was spun off into its own branch of the military in 1947. There are exceptions, and the Army does operate some fixed wing aircraft, but they are few and far between, just as DemoTex will attest.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
25. Interesting.
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 01:51 PM
Oct 2015

Then did they get A-10s 'on loan' from the Air Force? They were all over the place at Fort Drum.

Brother Buzz

(36,426 posts)
26. I'm guessing Air Force jockeys were flying them.
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 02:11 PM
Oct 2015

Did you see Air Force liaison frequenting Fort Drum?

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
34. Not from where I was, we just saw the planes at a distance.
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 03:20 PM
Oct 2015

It was in a few field exercises, I guess they were joint exercises.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
28. Correct, the Army operates very few fixed wing aircraft,
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 02:17 PM
Oct 2015

their main air assets are helicopters, which are, in of themselves, quite capable of CGS, especially the Cobra's and Apache's.

Brother Buzz

(36,426 posts)
31. I bet you dimes to donuts those CGS helicopter pilots....
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 02:38 PM
Oct 2015

would not object to having A-10s in the area covering their sixes.



GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
36. Certainly not,
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 04:22 PM
Oct 2015

although during Vietnam, I was always pleased to see the Sandy's covering our asses while we were doing strafing runs on the VC or NVA, or picking up troops.
There's nothing like a couple of Sandy's or Warthog's circling overhead to keep the bad guy's heads down.

JHB

(37,160 posts)
12. A better selection of quoted text...
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 10:46 AM
Oct 2015

...to get to the gist of what the article is actually about:

Like other American combat troops in Afghanistan, the SEALs sometimes found that high-tech gear couldn’t reliably get the job done, or that cheaper, lower-tech solutions worked better. This is how the US military almost adopted the A-29 Super Tucano, a $4 million turboprop airplane reminiscent of WWII-era designs that troops wanted, commanders said was “urgently needed,” but Congress refused to buy.

RISE OF THE SUPER TUCANO

The Super Tucano was a throwback to a bygone era of aerial combat—a time when pilots looked through the blur of a propeller and pointed their nose at the enemy before pulling the trigger. A time before auto-pilot, guided missiles, and infrared gun “pods.” The A-29 was fast enough to get to a fight quickly and light enough to stay there in a low, slow orbit overhead the battle.

Philosophically, the Super Tucano occupies a sort of middle ground between the United States’ two main gunships. As a plane, the A-29 could reach altitudes over the Hindu Kush higher than the AH-64 Apache helicopter, and remain overhead for hours before refueling like the legendary AC-130 Spectre gunships.
****

“It’s a great plane,” says recently retired Air Force Lt. Col. Shamsher Mann, an F-16 pilot who has flown A-29s. “Pilots love it. It handles beautifully, sips gas, and can go anywhere. If you want to get into the fight and mix it up with the guys on the ground, the Super T is a great platform.”

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
19. Why would you want to buy that plane
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 04:04 PM
Oct 2015

When this one would work better.



Specifications (A-1H Skyraider)
Line drawings for the AD-4 Skyraider.

Data from McDonnell Douglas Aircraft since 1920[32]

General characteristics

Crew: One
Length: 38 ft 10 in (11.84 m)
Wingspan: 50 ft 0¼ in (15.25 m)
Height: 15 ft 8¼ in (4.78 m)
Wing area: 400.3 ft² (37.19 m²)
Empty weight: 11,968 lb (5,429 kg)
Loaded weight: 18,106 lb (8,213 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 25,000 lb (11,340 kg)
Powerplant: 1 × Wright R-3350-26WA radial engine, 2,700 hp (2,000 kW)

Performance

Maximum speed: 322 mph (280 kn, 518 km/h) at 18,000 ft (5,500 m)
Cruise speed: 198 mph (172 kn, 319 km/h)
Range: 1,316 mi (1,144 nmi, 2,115 km)
Service ceiling: 28,500 ft (8,685 m)
Rate of climb: 2,850 ft/min (14.5 m/s)
Wing loading: 45 lb/ft² (220 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.15 hp/lb (250 W/kg)

Armament

Guns: 4 × 20 mm (0.79 in) M2 cannon
Other: Up to 8,000 lb (3,600 kg) of ordnance on 15 external hardpoints including bombs, torpedoes, mine dispensers, unguided rockets, and gun pods.[23]

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
37. Lots of hang time, and can carry
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 04:29 PM
Oct 2015

it's own weight in ordnance.

people are always trying to sell a "new and improved" when the best available is already there.


GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
39. Yep.
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 04:35 PM
Oct 2015

It could loiter over a battle zone for a long time, blasting anything that moved, and was quite nimble.
The NVA and VC especially feared these aircraft.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
41. And do it much cheaper.
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 05:18 PM
Oct 2015

Sometimes technology just gets ahead of itself with no discernible positives.

catnhatnh

(8,976 posts)
18. Terrible Article
Sat Oct 24, 2015, 12:31 PM
Oct 2015

If you mention both the F-35 (which has never been operational) and a WW2 era aircraft in your title then both of these items should come into play in the body of your story. In this case neither does...

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
27. There are aleast six of these
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 02:14 PM
Oct 2015

F-35's at Nellis. Hell,the enemy can hear these suckers coming miles away,no hush kits. Notice their flight times are very limited,heard stories about six hours wrench time for every one hour of operation time,and the latest is,issues with hot fuel shutting down engines. What a boon dongle. And this is supposed to be a Joint Fighter,duh.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
29. All new generation aircraft have problems,
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 02:20 PM
Oct 2015

the bugs will be ironed out in time and I suspect it will be a very capable aircraft.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
35. This boon
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 03:34 PM
Oct 2015

dongle is in it's ninth year,and still to this day,much of it's fire power is nonoperational due to software f--- ups. But,Guys like McCain and his Rethug pals are raking in the cash from this POS. Corporate Welfare at it's finest.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
21. The Super -T has survivability problems...
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 01:11 PM
Oct 2015

I notice the article didn't mention that it is a pretty fragile plane...

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
33. The P-47 was actually much better suited to fighter-bomber role, and 125 knots faster.
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 02:56 PM
Oct 2015

Simple, robust, heavily armed and armoured. Ideal, if we ever have to go to war with Nazi Germany again.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
38. This was a hell of a Fighter/Bomber also.
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 04:29 PM
Oct 2015


F4U Corsair, used primarily by the Marines, made famous by VMF 214, commanded by Greg "Pappy" Boyington.
Also used in the Korean War.
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