re: the afghan woman stoned to death: there are certain sects in THIS country (not just muslim)

[niyad]

who believe in death for adulterous women (not men!) they just haven't got the guts to actually do it openly. and perhaps we could look at domestic violence stats in this country, in addition to the continuous assaults on women's reproductive choices. we have absolutely NOTHING to be proud of when it comes to the treatment of women in THIS country, nothing to feel superior about.

and 3. . . 2. . . .1. . .

[Nye Bevan]

1. Out of curiosity, why do you say "not muslim"?

There are certainly many religious extremists in this country who believe in all kinds of horrible things, but why are you so confident that there are no Muslim extremists here who believe in the death penalty for adultery?

[hobbit709]

2. It's the same groups that get all worked up about Shariah law being implemented here.

But are quite comfortable about the idea of implementing their version of Old Testament law.

Pick a religion, any religion, and the fundies of that religion are indistinguishable from any other religion.

[pansypoo53219]

69. chriria law. or testanetaria,

[niyad]

6. because I wanted to point out that, in this country, there really is not that much difference

between the xian nutbars and other fundamentalist groups. (could not fit all that into the title)

[Nye Bevan]

7. We have fundamentalist bakers who don't want to bake cakes for gay weddings,

and companies like Hobby Lobby that don't want to pay for contraception within their employee health plan.

But I'm struggling to recall any incidents in the US where a woman was physically punished for committing adultery, let alone stoned to death.

[niyad]

9. take a look at domestic violence stats before making statements like that.

[dembotoz]

3. The aspect of belief that ur interpretation of gods law rules over others

To. Have god on your side can be dangerous to others cause u can then justify anything

[snooper2]

4. um, yeah we do actually- when was the last woman stoned to death in the US?

fuck fundies

[niyad]

5. is there a difference between being stoned to death, or being beaten or shot to death?

there, it is religion, here we call it domestic violence. sorry, our track record regarding women is nothing of which to be proud.

[1939]

10. Uhhhh

You have evidence that beating women to death or killing them by guns in the USA is more prevalent among the churchgoing crowd as opposed to the non-churchgoing crowd?

[Nye Bevan]

11. Domestic violence is awful and exists in every country.

Women who commit adultery being sentenced to death and brutally stoned to death by a baying crowd of villagers only exists in certain countries, not this one.

[niyad]

12. keep trying.

[B2G]

13. It wasn't just a braying crowd gone wild

She was sentenced to death by those governing the village.

How this can be equated to individual acts of domestic violence mystifies me.

[Nye Bevan]

14. Yep. And there have been cases where the woman's OWN FUCKING FATHER participates in the stoning.

ISIS militants have released a sickening video of a woman being stoned to death by a large group including her own dad.

The heartbreaking footage shows the woman - who is accused of committing adultery - begging her dad to forgive her, saying "please father" and "forgive me".

But - despite his daughter being moments away from being brutally killed - he refuses and says: "I am not your father anymore".

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/sickening-isis-video-shows-moment-4475785

But of course this is just like what happens in the US (according to the OP).

[NCTraveler]

44. I deny that women are rearranging mens faces with their fists. nt.

[NCTraveler]

32. There is one common denominator in domestic abuse and it isn't what you are trying to make it.

The common denominator is men. Does not matter their religion or lack thereof.

[B2G]

36. Men are abused by women as well

Perhaps not in as large of numbers, but it's really hard to know the full extent of the problem due to considerable under-reporting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men

[NCTraveler]

37. See post 32 and I find it really shitty this is the point you feel you need to make. nt.

[B2G]

38. I saw post 32. I just responded to it.

And why is it 'shitty' to point out that women are capable of abusing men as well?

Do you deny it happens?

[Lee-Lee]

40. Your statement is patently false and a bad stereotype that needs to go away

For many years as a deputy all I did was domestic abuse cases, there were two of us that did noting but DV for the entire county.

There is almost as much domestic violence that stems from women to men as there is men to women. But men are far less likely to report it, or want action taken for a variety of reasons that are mostly cultural.

In addition I worked my share of cases involving gay male couples, lesbian couples, and couples with one or two trans persons.

Right here in NC.

Your statement that the common denominator in DV is men is patently false, and it's a bad stereotype- the perpetuation of which is part of the problem that discourages men who are the victims of abusive relationships to not seek help because people like you say DV can on be done by men.

[B2G]

41. Careful. You just might get called 'shitty'.

Thank you. I was a social workers for years, practicing in the area of domestic violence. My experiences mirror yours.

[NCTraveler]

42. "There is almost as much domestic violence that stems from women to men as there is men to women."

Tell me about all of the women sending men to the hospitals with their fists. This is another deflection just like the "but cops have a hard job."

[Lee-Lee]

47. I worked many cases like that

You can stay in denial all you want- but those of us who have actually worked these cases have seen it.

I've seen eyes gouged out, hammer blows to the head, a baseball bat to the knees, teeth knocked out- on men done by women or on women done by other women.

Not all domestic violence results in hospital stays. I've worked loads of cases of physical assaults on men by women thy didn't result in a trip to the hospital, and the idea that you can only measure it by trips to the hospital caused by fists is an idiotic standard and stance to take.

[NCTraveler]

52. Keep telling yourself that women are out their pumiling mens faces like men to women. Such crap.

http://womenandpolicing.com/violencefs.asp

[Lee-Lee]

55. It's reality. Sorry if it conflicts with the fantasy land you evidently live in.

It is what it is. Women are fully capable of committing domestic violence and abuse and it happens every day.

That's reality. You can sit in your fantasy land and pretend it doesn't, but that just leaves you ignorant of reality.

Your link is apples and oranges. DV is a problem in LE, I've even arrested officers from other agencies for it. But that doesn't have anything at all to do with what we are discussing.

[NCTraveler]

57. Yes it does. I'm sure those officers you arrested, not in your agency of course, were women.

Stick with facts.

[Lee-Lee]

64. I'm sticking with facts- here are some links for you

While its underreported because men are more reluctant to, it's well documented.

1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men have been victims of [some form of] physical violence by an intimate partner within their lifetime.1

1 in 5 women and 1 in 7 men have been victims of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime.1

http://www.ncadv.org/learn/statistics

survey taken by the CDC in 2010, it was found that 40% of the victims of severe, physical domestic violence are men.

http://domesticviolencestatistics.org/men-the-overlooked-victims-of-domestic-violence/

http://www.mintpressnews.com/woman-aggressor-unspoken-truth-domestic-violence/196746/

And this link from the UK with similar stats to the US:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

[NCTraveler]

65. Everything you are doing backs me up.

How about my link upthread to you. That is some really disturbing shit.

[Lee-Lee]

68. I already said your link is about a real problem but that doesn't change the facts

That women are aggressor in DV cases somewhere around 40-45% of the time.

You seem to think that somehow point out that DV is an issue in police families, which it is, somehow changes the fact that women are often aggressors in DV.

One fact doesn't negate the other. DV is a problem in LE (although I question your links talk of the severity) and women are aggressors in 40-45% of DV cases. Both of those realities exist. You seem to be in denial of the latter and desperate to not acknowledge that it's reality.

[jonno99]

59. So pummeling anothers face with the fist is the only act of violence you recognize?

Obviously in a toe-to-toe match with a man, a women is generally going to be on the losing end. Which is why women most often resort to a weapon as a force multiplier/equalizer.

[NCTraveler]

62. When did I ever say what you claim I said in your headline?

Insinuations made of whole cloth in that manner are crap as well.

[jonno99]

67. You implied it in your statement:

"Keep telling yourself that women are out their pumiling mens faces like men to women. Such crap."

The above quote was meant to deflect Lee-lee's points in the previous post - which you apparently reject.

[treestar]

61. It is not sanctioned by law and not for adultery

[raccoon]

8. Good point. nt

[Throd]

15. They want to do it, yet they don't, but AmeriKKKa is just as bad?

Get back to me when the city council of Anywhere, USA sanctions death for adultery.

[Lee-Lee]

16. Your really bending over backwards to try and minimize how much worse women are in those countries

Are you really trying to equivalate the treatment of women in countries like Afghanistan where women have zero rights and stonings like this are the norm and accepted by society with repercussion? Those countries are just as bad as us? Really?

Countries where women are sold into marriage more often than not are just as bad as us? Really?

Countries where women must always cover their head and once the hit puberty must wear a burqa are just the same as us? Really?

Countries where the culture denies most women a basic education and any girl who goes to school risks death or injury not only to herself but her family just for going to school are the same as us? Really?

I've actually been to Afghanistan. I've actually gone into villiages there helping to do medical outreach and take supplies to schools. Women in the US don't face anything on the worst days like what every woman in these countries is born into and faces every day of her life.

Sure, we have a some bad actors in this country that try this. It isn't systemic and ingrained in our culture anything like it is in those countries, and here we punish them for acts of violence.

I suggest you first realize and admit that evil exists in the world, and get out of your bubble and realize that no, not all cultures are equally bad and yes, we are better than that and yes, we damm sure have a lot to be proud of when compared to those countries.

Your comparing the treatment or women in this country to the treatment of women there displays a huge ignorance and really minimizes the plight and suffering of those women.

[B2G]

17. Plus one million. nt

[niyad]

18. and YOU are minimizing the true situation of women in THIS country. but, as I said, keep trying.

[Lee-Lee]

19. Not one bit- everything you said happens here exists

And it exists 10000x worse in those countries plus those women face things on a daily basis women don't face here- like being attacked for going to school, not allowed to drive, not allowed to hold a job...


You really need to leave your bubble and go visit these places. I tell you what- take your message to downtown Washignton and yell it to the passing people in the street dressed in your daily normal clothing, then go try the same thing in Kabul or Riyadh and let me know how it works out for you as a woman in each place...

[Nye Bevan]

20. Thank you. Well said (nt)

[riderinthestorm]

21. The situation in this country is bad for women but it's worse there niyad imo

Last edited Thu Nov 5, 2015, 03:10 PM - Edit history (1)

We don't have public executions because a woman was raped. We can drive, go out without permission of our male keepers, wear pretty much what we want, call the cops when we're beat up etc.

A public stoning by a mob of men is truly on a whole bother level imo.

I'm a fervent feminist and ardent women's rights advocate here and in real life. You're a kindred soul for me so please take my (mild) disagreement in a spirit of camaraderie.

[niyad]

22. understood.

what the others did not seem to understand is that I was saying only that this country has nothing to boast about when it comes to women's position here. but the exceptionalists will always say "but others have it so much worse", as though that were some sort of defense against the problems here.

[Bluenorthwest]

31. You are far too generous to your own tactic. You are being America-centric and minimizing the

suffering of others, not wittingly I'm sure, but that is what you are doing.
I sure as hell do not excuse the stoning of LGBT persons by theocracies just because the US has bigots too.
I am super ultra sick of straight persons telling me that nations and groups gathering to systemically murder gay people are 'just like the US'.

[NaturalHigh]

23. I'm calling BS on this one.

You post a lot of stuff that I consider over the top, but this one is just way too out there. Can you actually name one group who thinks that adulterous women should be killed?

[niyad]

24. a number of xian reichwing groups, whose writings I have been reading for years.

you can consider it "over the top" and dismiss if you like. that does not change the reality.

[Throd]

25. They don't wield any real power. Stop reading their shit.

[NaturalHigh]

26. Link? I'm still calling BS until I see proof of such outlandish allegations.

I'm a Christian and have never once heard another Christian call for the death penalty for adultery.

[niyad]

27. feel free.

[NaturalHigh]

28. That's what I thought.

[climber3986]

30. made outlandish statement, others call for you to post evidence, ran away with tail between legs. nt

[Nye Bevan]

29. I suspect niyad is coming up empty with Google

because so am I:

https://www.google.com/search?q=christian+groups+calling+for+death+for+adultery&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

[NaturalHigh]

46. Maybe she should try Bing.

I still doubt she will find what she's looking for because it simply isn't true.

[niyad]

33. read your bible

[climber3986]

35. telling someone to read their bible is not evidence of systemic honor killings in america.

[Nye Bevan]

39. I did. Jesus was the guy who *stopped* the stoning of the adulteress (nt)

[NaturalHigh]

49. Thank you. I wonder how that inconvenient little fact...

fits in with the "CHRISTIANS WANT TO STONE WOMEN!!!" meme.

[NaturalHigh]

45. I've read all of the Bible and several different versions of it.

So far I have yet to come across any mention of the United States.

[climber3986]

34. patently false

my wife moved from Pakistan to the USA around 2004. The systematic abuse there suffered by women in various middle eastern / asian countries DOES NOT COMPARE to what women go through here. Sure there are sickos who beat or even kill their wives all around the world, however in Pakistan / Afghanistan / Iraq / Yemen there is a significant portion of the population who think it is acceptable to bury an adulteress wife in the ground and stone her to death, and then teach their children that this is acceptable, passing this horrible practice on to the next generation, which makes it WAY WORSE than one random sicko who kills his wife, as it makes killing an adulteress wife culturally acceptable, and vastly increasing the amount of systemic oppression, compared to one person who kills his wife, who is then rejected by his peers and sent to prison.

Just to clarify a point in your title thread, you are correct that this is NOT a Muslim issue, this is a cultural issue to several countries in the gulf area (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabai, Iraq)

There are plenty of moderate Muslim countries like Turkey where this practice is rejected.

[Lee-Lee]

43. You nailed it- people who haven't been to these places speak from ignorance when they make claims

like the op did.

Until you see just what it's like it's almost impossible to fathom when you come from a place like the USA.

[Yorktown]

48. There is a HUGE difference in numbers though

Although I will certainly not defend any religion (in absolute or relative terms),
in the name of objectivity, Islam, as currently practiced, is far more fundamentalist.

Pew Research results: about 50% Muslims worldwide believe adulterers should be stoned.
Muslim chamans (imams, mollahs) have made fundamentalism the norm.

While Christian fundamentalism is far less mainstream.
Even in the Bible belt, supporters of the stoning of adulterers are a lunatic fringe.

I hope.

[dembotoz]

50. but what about the church that just beat the kid to death?

maybe not as common as elsewhere but don't look too far down your noses.
perhaps look to the bombing of abortion clinics
or the gay or transgender kid who gets the snot beat out of them.....

[Throd]

53. People who do those things are arrested for criminal acts.

[Nye Bevan]

54. How about the transgender teen who was elected Homecoming Queen?

http://wgntv.com/2015/09/13/high-school-names-transgender-teen-homecoming-queen/

How many countries do you think this could happen in?

[Lee-Lee]

56. And in all those cases our society rejects that and will punish them

Unlike these countries where society approves of such behaviors and encourages it instead of punishes it, where its a daily fact of life instead of something so abhorrent that it makes news across the country.

[valerief]

51. We have "Let the Mother Die" assholes running for president, too. nt

[Sunlei]

58. religious extremists can NOT break USA laws. I wish USA had INSTANT humanitarian visas in Afg.

Can't stand it, the Internet Media & whoever 'profits' from religious hate publicity- reports barbarian Men stoning woman- and will not PUSH a way to save their lives.

[treestar]

60. That's absurd

We are way ahead of stoning women for adultery. Give us at least credit for what we've done. Women here are treated way better than in Afghanistan.

[cwydro]

66. I think it's absurd also. eom

[jonno99]

63. I must have missed the last few public stonings of adulterers here in the US. Otherwise,

please provide recent examples where women in the US were brutalized and the community stood by in APPROVAL.

Then, please point out in our legal system, specific laws where women are allowed to be brutalized.

[linuxman]

70. Spoken with the confidence of one who has never been there or seen it firsthand.

You really have a serious perspective issue.

Come join me in Afghanistan. I'm sure you'll hardly want to go back to the US, seeing as to how you'll feel so at home here.

Women are killed in every country on earth. In some countries it's organized, advocated for, and supported by the family, the village, tradition, and the culture. In others, not so much. Most rational people can spot the difference.

[Quantess]

71. You have a naive perspective if you are seriously saying that what happens in the M.E. is comparable

to what can happen, sometimes, within small groups in western cultures outside of the middle east.
Naive!

[Nye Bevan]

72. Thread didn't quite go as planned? (nt)

[Bradical79]

73. Acknowledging one horror is not ignorance of the other

I can recognize the horrible situation for women in another country while still wanting to improve things for women here too and fight regression. I'm not quite sure what your point is.