Here is my pick for one of the best REPLIES I've ever read on DU

[inanna]

regarding basic income.

It was written by DUer woo me with science in reply to this post:

5 Reasons to Consider a No-Strings-Attached, Basic Income for All Americans

Here is the reply (from 2014):

woo me with science (32,139 posts)

16. +100000 And the benefits...

freeing people from desperation, giving them the space to pursue work and creative activities instead of functioning as desperate cogs in a sick society.

Imagine the potential savings in healthcare and prisons if you remove day-to-day desperation about having enough to survive.

People post those heart-stirring photos of how shelter animals are transformed from hopeless, ugly, pathetic creatures into vibrant, active, busy companions, just by ensuring they have their basic needs met. Yet we are supposed to believe that the same dynamic is unrealistic for human beings.

The goal of a predatory, wealth-hijacking society is the desperation of its workers, because desperate workers are easier to control and exploit. We constantly are fed sick lies about what we can and can't afford to do for people. We pour billions into war.

Government should exist to serve people, not the other way around. And we are not "workers." We are human beings who should be using government to create societies that enrich us, help us care for one another, and allow us to live, create, and make the most of our short time here on earth.

Bravo!

Just felt that this needed to be read by more people.

[Snarkoleptic]

1. Or as FDR said, "“Necessitous men are not free men.”

Time to bring his second bill of rights to the table in order to fight back against the corporatocracy.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights

[inanna]

5. I agree. It is way past time for this.

[zentrum]

13. Love this Economic Bill of Rights.

Thanks for posting.

[mindwalker_i]

2. Mincome is a great idea

It would be a bit difficult to work out, but it would transform society into something so much better. Companies would have to compete with it to get people working for them and, as you said, people would be free to try a lot of new ideas without fear of losing everything.

[inanna]

4. Yes. It would change the world. n/t

[bjobotts]

89. The world changes as individual consciousness changes.

[catrose]

88. Exactly!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. What a great post you've brought us! Thank you. n/t

[inanna]

18. Every. Single. Word.

Resonates.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

19. All of them sure do! n/t

[azmom]

6. I miss woo

And this is an example of why. Thank you for the post.

[inanna]

8. Posts like these are the reason why I come to DU - and probably always will.

[Hydra]

10. Me too

[blackspade]

16. I miss woo as well.

Not sure what happened though, since I didn't know them personally.

[RiverLover]

41. I do too!

Very much.

[merrily]

7. I love woo. I never recovered from her departure and probably never will.

[Hydra]

12. I miss my sister in arms

I wasn't around to see this post, but it makes me proud that we're both fighting for the same things.

[lob1]

15. I used to enjoy her posts. Why did she leave?

[Javaman]

42. damn, I didn't know she left.

that's a big loss for DU.

I know I certainly don't post as much as I did once upon a time. I just don't have the energy to debate 24/7 the ill informed anymore.

[merrily]

43. I've noticed. Take care of yourself any way you need to, but it's DU's loss.

I know what you mean about debating.

[rhett o rick]

81. We've lost some great progressives. nm

[mountain grammy]

9. I put this on a sticky note on my desktop the first time I read it,

and read it nearly every day. Thanks for posting.

[inanna]

11. What a terrific idea! Might have to copy you on that.

[Hydra]

14. This is such a great post by one of the DUers I miss the most every time I log in

Minimum income would solve so much that is wrong in our society. I'm happy to have this on my list of priorities, and someday we'll get it done.

After all, it was on Nixon's list of things to do. We're a little behind

[daleanime]

17. K&R.....

[marym625]

20. I miss woo.

K&R

[merrily]

44. Marily misses woo.

[marym625]

64. yeah we do!

[merrily]

66. LOL! Marily rhymed that time.

[marym625]

70. we're a poet and didn't know it

[merrily]

72. Marily did know it.

[marym625]

73. okay. You got us.

[Enthusiast]

76. Yiz guys are funny.

[hifiguy]

60. She was an inspiration to me.

And I miss her terribly.

IIRC she got alerted on/ripped a lot for being a CTer no matter how many reputable links she included in her posts, and the Hillionaires didn't much care for her at all, so connect the dots.

[marym625]

67. I actually saw somebody

Tell her that she's not "clicking on all those bluelinks" then laugh at her for trying to give facts. So much wrong with that I wouldn't know where to begin.

An inspiration to me as well

[hifiguy]

69. I remember that post as well.

DU, like the old gray mare, ain't what it used to be many long years ago.

[marym625]

71. can you imagine the shit being said today

In response to the 9/11 comment, being said 10 years ago? Or the excuses for the war in Iraq?

Sad

[marym625]

21. I just clicked through to read the post

It's an xchrom post.

Very somber mood now. So many great DUers gone. Hoping woo is well.

[lovemydog]

24. I'm really sorry to hear that marym625.

Are you saying that woo me with science isn't posting at DU any more? Or that xchrom isn't posting at DU any more? Or that the post in the original post is from xchrom. Sorry, I have trouble keeping track. I hate it when any posters are forced out or leave. I wish them all the best and always hope they return.

[marym625]

27. xchrom died.

Just about a month or two before JackpineRadical (Jim Peterson) and Jeff Greggs.

Xchrom is the author of the OP that this OP links to. The one that woo me with science replied to.

I don't know what happened to woo. I suspect she got fed up with all the horrible bullshit here. The constant, horrendous attacks on good people here, including her, and the horseshit crap that was being posted about Bernie. The despicable, horrific posts that tried to link him to outright racist, misogynist, criminal activity. That's about when she left. That's when we lost a few really good, smart, knowledgeable, kind people.

I miss woo, xchrom and Jackpine.

[lovemydog]

31. I miss them too!

I'm so sorry to hear about all this. To anyone who was involved in those posts: for shame. There is another human being at the other end of your post.

Thank you for the information.

Hey all: stop dragging petty bullshit to DU. It can really truly hurt another person in ways that maybe you can't imagine.

[marym625]

32. I hope it stops

But I'm not holding my breath.

Nice seeing you. I'm going to sleep. Sweet dreams my friend.

[lovemydog]

35. Sweet dreams.

Sleep well.

[erronis]

53. Lovemydog, marym625 - great exchange, inanna - thanks for posting

Sometimes I don't realize that I'm missing something (e.g. woo me with science's voice) until someone points it out.

I also think that the clutter that has grown on this site in the short time that I've been here is on purpose - it's to distract from meaningful conversations.

In addition, I'm not sure that there is a "human being", or at least a caring, sentient one at the origin of a lot of these posts. Robots and paid actors. Some political organizations have shown that they are very low in the scruple class.

[lovemydog]

79. Thanks erronis.

I agree with you on that. It's nice finding and talking with some genuine people. It does seem a lot of stuff is intentionally trying to be divisive and distracting. It appears posted only to be divisive and perhaps to make all liberals look like raving lunatics, lol.

[hifiguy]

61. woo rebutted the Hillionaires' smears of Bernie with facts

and was then attacked for it, often by charter members of the Sewer Site. They did not want her around DU. Connect the dots. The Sewer Site Gang's tactics are well known here.

[marym625]

63. sadly, all true.

[raindaddy]

22. Beautiful!

Thanks for reposting this.

[lovemydog]

23. Thank you for sharing it here.

What a great post by woo me with science.

You rock for sharing it here inanna.

I fully support a guaranteed income. Everyone should read that great post for more info on it. Interestingly, this is not some whacky new or socialist idea. In a book of transcripts from Nixon's tape recordings that I read a few years ago, he discussed it pretty extensively. He was hoping to start initiating it in his second term as a sort of peace dividend. We need a peace dividend now. It would save everyone a lot of money in the long run.

[inanna]

25. Here is an opinion piece from The Toronto Star

that I stumbled upon earlier tonight:

Basic income: just what the doctor ordered

...

Earlier this month, 194 physicians in Ontario signed a letter calling for a basic income pilot program. Delivered to Health Minister Eric Hoskins (also a physician), the letter outlines how poverty leads to higher rates of heart disease, depression, diabetes and scores of other illnesses.

<snip>

Where more extensive basic income pilots have been tried, both internationally and in Canada, the results have been impressive. The Mincome experiment in Dauphin, Manitoba in the 1970s resulted in higher school completion rates, and a reduction in hospitalization of 8.5 per cent largely due to fewer accidents, injuries and mental health admissions. According to the Canadian Institute for Health Information, Canadians spent $63.6 billion on hospital services in 2014, meaning a decrease of 8.5 per cent would result in savings of $5.4 billion. This is just one of the many areas where the return on social investment saves public funds, improving the lives of Canadians in the bargain.

cont'd...

Link: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2015/08/26/basic-income-just-what-the-doctor-ordered.html

It got me thinking....

Then I ran a search on DU and discovered the post in the OP.

[lovemydog]

30. Yes, it's just what the doctor ordered!

'Where more extensive basic income pilots have been tried, both internationally and in Canada, the results have been impressive.' Lower rate of hospitalization, fewer accidents, fewer mental health problems. Imagine how much we could save in incarceration costs too. I think it should be tried in progressive counties and states. At a federal level of course I'd support that too. Great article.

[PatrickforO]

26. Outstanding post!

This is what the earth COULD be if we got beyond corporate and individual greed and entered love and caring for one another. If we can only switch from being a world that elevates the desires of the individual to a world that elevates the highest good of the group...

Oh, oh. That would be EVOLUTION...I don't believe in that...the world is only 6,000 years old...yes, that's it...say, let's have another WAR!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

28. Think of the care the elderly would get if family members were available too.

[lovemydog]

36. Wow, that is a great point.

Imagine the savings if people had more time to care for the elderly.

I'm lucky I live near my dad. My sister lives near my mom. It's not always a bed of roses (nothing ever is) but we're both grateful we can spend time with them.

[sabrina 1]

29. Woo me with science is one of DU's all time best thinkers, posters, writers who has apparently,

like so many of our other great writers, thinkers, Democrats, moved on from this place. A wise decision on his part.

Great post, as were all of Woo's contributions.

I hope he's okay!

[leftstreet]

37. +1

[JEB]

56. I always gave Woo's posts a thoughtful read. Miss him/her.

[Kalidurga]

33. Thank you for posting this

what great ideas.

[Duckfan]

34. Remember, It's a big club.

And we're not in it.
-George Carlin

[DLevine]

38. k&r nt

[ladyVet]

39. It would save money in the long run, and improve the world. Near Utopia.

But, the people in charge aren't going to have anything to do with it, because it benefits them for the majority of humanity to be sick and poor and helpless. Wars are fought not only for profit, but to kill off people that aren't wanted.

And none of the above is a conspiracy theory, because it's out in the open and you can see it with your own eyes. Many people have been fooled into voting for people who only push the agenda forward, slower at times than at others, but still moving forward.

[Scuba]

40. I loved woo's posts, but she got it wrong here ...

We actually spend trillions on war, not just billions.

[smirkymonkey]

45. +1000

[Phentex]

46. Woo was an awesome DU'er...

always thought provoking.

[Octafish]

47. woo me with science

Missed every day since May 30.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026745215#post20

[G_j]

48. wisdom

which is sorely missed

[raouldukelives]

49. K&R Hoping the best for one of the best. nt

[CrispyQ]

50. Kicking.

I miss Woo.

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

~ Jiddu Krishnamurti

[TBF]

51. Woo is one of my favorite posters

and her voice is missed. Tirelessly advocating for income equality - I especially liked her posts on single payer and social security.

[Phlem]

52. another fantastic post by woo.

she absolutely rocks.

[WillyT]

54. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

[grahamhgreen]

55. True, so many of us are shelter animals waiting to be transformed - look at JK Rowling!!!!

[floriduck]

57. I'm curious if this excellent post was acknowledged

by Bernie Sanders supporters only or whether there were any Hill backers too. I just didn't see any pictures or signatures indicating Hill fans. I would think that the principles in this post would be supported by ALL Democrats. If not, that tells a very bad story.

[Orsino]

58. If money is speech, and speech is a right, complete the goddamned syllogism.

Aristocrats keep people hungry and fearful. Democratic leaders don't.

[ChiciB1]

59. I DO Post Here, More Now Lately Because Of How VERY

disturbed I am about the direction our country is headed. About a year ago I began hearing that we were becoming more of an OLIGARCHY than a Democracy but felt we as a people would have enough intelligence to realize how very detrimental this would be. NOW I've come to believe that this happening is more likely than ever. I wish I could find a way to drive this point home and make people realize how very serious this is. Posting here is one way for me to speak out about this.

So I come here and comment more than usual, but did miss this post. Thank you for bringing this post front and center in the way you have. There are so many here who understand and feel the very same way and I'm sure others here have made this same point. Please don't think I don't totally agree with what you've put forth here, just saying so many of us feel exactly the same way.

I'm glad you took the time to shine a brighter light on this TRUTH!

[Doctor_J]

68. That's because the party that should be pulling us to the left is actually

pulling us a little less to the right

[bvar22]

62. woo was/is one of the best & brightest,

many of whom have left because DU had become too toxic for them.

This is one of MY favorite "woo" posts:

The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.

It is to thoroughly hijack, pollute and therefore eliminate public spaces where real discussion and organization can occur. Occupy is disbanded with clubs and pepper spray. Dissent and organization online are disrupted with surveillance and propaganda.

It is no accident that propaganda brigades post new threads on discussion boards far out of proportion to their presence in the community, and that they nearly *always* demand the last word in any interchange.

The goal is to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points.

woo me with science Sun Jul 28, 2013

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801

[bananas]

74. One of many. nt

[Doctor_J]

65. Yes, woo was a great member

Traditional democrat, never a step back (or in a triangular direction). DU and the party need a lot more like woo and a lot fewer appeasers and Turd Way.

[hifiguy]

83. Agreed.

She was run off by the Usual Suspects, all of whom were charter members of the Sewer Site, who could not abide her voluminously documented rebuttals of their smear/lie attacks on Bernie.

She was a genuine inspiration to me, just like Octafish has been.

[Enthusiast]

75. K&R! I see this post already has hundreds of recommendations! Well deserved they are!

This society Woo envisions is well within reach. It would actually be easier to create than what we are doing now.

[Skittles]

77. LOVES ME SOME WOO ME

INDEED I DO

[Blue_Tires]

78. You don't often get coherent thoughts from him

But I approve of that post 100%

[Todays_Illusion]

80. I am shocked that so many would fall for this fairy tale, It is just a way to eliminate a lot of

from income earning, and it will come with restrictions, like if you are on the dole, no vote, you will bse required to contribute certain numbers of free labor for the community, you will be required to live in substandard housing etc.
It is a sneaky way to eliminate Social Security, medicare, tax supported education and dozens of other programs and once those are gone, this program will be cut and cut and cut until everyone is out smashing rocks and picking up sticks for firewook.


No one should believe this with the government we have now. It is EITC time 1000

[inanna]

90. Welcome to DU.

I think it is the fear of any kind of meaningful progress that keeps us stuck in the current system - which is simply not working for the vast majority.

To quote woo me with science (yet again): "We are not "workers". <<< True, this. Nor are we simply "consumers." We are people first.

I suppose my thinking on the topic kinda goes like this: what if our most basic needs were met, and we worked to earn the things we want? Most people would still work to achieve those wants - whatever they might be: vacations, electronics, etc.

The difference would be that employers would not be holding all of the cards. The people would truly have the power in a system like this - and would work as they wanted, when they wanted - depending on their own life goals.

Employers would have to offer real incentives to attract any prospective employee; like decent wages and benefits for starters - even without the bargaining power of unions.

No, I rather suspect that in a system like this, jobs would be more plentiful - and quite possibly more meaningful. In a society where a healthy work/life balance is the norm, people would not need to work nearly as much. But they would still work.

True, many find the idea of "idleness" a bit distasteful. But raising children is "work." Tending a backyard or community garden is "work." Volunteering in the community is "work." I would submit that any of these modes of "work" add more value to our society than many of the menial jobs people are forced to do now, simply in order to survive.

[Todays_Illusion]

91. People on government guaranteed income will be supported by tax money, wouldn't that be employers?

if they paid taxes. I see it as a con game.

[inanna]

92. And I think our current system is a con game.

So we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Todays_Illusion]

93. Of course our system since 1980 is a whopper of a con. That is why I support Bernie Sanders.

[MH1]

82. Proud to be the 300th rec.

That is indeed an excellent post.

[cer7711]

84. One of the best, truest things I've ever read on DU.

Let's get this out there, eh people?

EVERYWHERE!

This should become meme numero uno in the months and years to come.

[Dont call me Shirley]

85. Woo us with dignity!

[senz]

86. This post prompted me to read some of woo's journal.

He/she immediately recognized how excellent Bernie's candidacy is. The waters have gotten so muddied with flaming; we need more calm, clear voices like woo's now. I hope he/she will find the time and inclination to drop in at least once in a while.

(I also wish we had a 3rd person singular gender-neutral pronoun in English.)

[Juicy_Bellows]

87. Woo was awesome and if Octafish ever leaves what the fuck point will there be in coming here?

Well, I like a lot of you other posters too