Why Poor People Stay Poor

[madamesilverspurs]

...
"Because our lives seem so unstable, poor people are often seen as being basically incompetent at managing their lives. That is, it’s assumed that we’re not unstable because we’re poor, we’re poor because we’re unstable. So let’s just talk about how impossible it is to keep your life from spiraling out of control when you have no financial cushion whatsoever. And let’s also talk about the ways in which money advice is geared only toward people who actually have money in the first place."
...
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/family/2014/12/linda_tirado_on_the_realities_of_living_in_bootstrap_america_daily_annoyances.html?wpsrc=sh_all_dt_tw_bot

x-posted from Working Poor group

[AZ Progressive]

1. I often see how the media often act like the poor don't exist, with everything geared toward...

at least the middle class.

[bvar22]

103. Its not just "The Media".

Most people step over poor people in the streets.
Some towns and cities actually pass LAWS keeping these American Citizens from using Public Parks and Streets.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. There are incredible layers to all this

indeed.

We have covered poverty more than a few times. Issues of poverty in my view are not paid attention enough in our society.

[SmittynMo]

18. Poverty?

Only one candidate will talk about it. Does that tell anyone anything?

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Well, I am talking of media in general

not candidates.

[Enthusiast]

120. Only one candidate has integrity and compassion.

Sorry, but it's true.

[w0nderer]

36. thank you

it needs to be paid attention to


i'll take this as your promise to push the agenda
ok?

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. PM going your way

[w0nderer]

57. got it

thank you
PM going back!

hey..you rock!

[GummyBearz]

3. I'd say its because the deck is stacked greater and greater against you...

...the less money you start off with these days. The basic necessities (rent and food) costs are too damn high to save anything meaningful. Is there any wonder why such a high percentage of middle class millenials go back to their parents to live for like 5 years? Cuz nothing is affordable even with a BS degree (and those student loan payments).

The poorer you are at this point in time, the more the deck is stacked against you. At some point of income and debt load there is a level playing field... but that is really high up there. Even if you were to bring in say $300K/year combined salary for a family of 4, you end up paying the same total $ in taxes as someone who happened to inherit a $1M stock portfolio. In that situation, the deck is even stacked against the $300K/year income family. And as I said, the less you make, the more it is stacked against you at this point in our countries time.

[2naSalit]

15. [phone]

[w0nderer]

38. if you feel like it

come join us at 'working poor' group

[w0nderer]

37. so so true

and inviting you to 'working poor'

[KentuckyWoman]

46. It's also very expensive to be poor.

Higher credit card rates
Higher insurance costs (yes they do check your credit rating and decide you are a bigger risk - less stable - if it's not good)
Higher banking costs (if you can even get an account)
Higher food costs (WHY are basic groceries higher in poor neighborhoods?)
Higher taxes (poor neighborhoods are often in incorporated cities which means higher sales and income taxes)
Transportation --- if you can even get a car it's often from a buy here pay here lot.


I'm tired but given a little sleep I know I could think up more ways poor is expensive.

In return for all these extra costs the poor are giving less services. Slower response times for emergencies. Non existent zoning or housing controls leading to poorly maintained living quarters. Crappy grocery stores and limited choices. Extremely poor customer service if not downright being treated like a thief or liar. Little to no justice.... etc etc ad nauseum.

The deck is indeed stacked against the working poor.

[w0nderer]

58. if you are

working poor is a group on here, welcome

[KamaAina]

104. WHY are basic groceries higher in poor neighborhoods?

Because the big chains don't want to locate there, because of "loss prevention" (i.e. the poor people, especially if they are of color, would supposedly steal them blind).

[werknotgoin2takeit]

106. The cost is not just in money

I've written about this before but the poor also pay in time. Can't afford a car and too far to walk? Better plan on one to two hours each way to get to work or run errands relying on public transport. Not all but many many cities have crap options. Don't have a washer and dryer? Spend the day getting to the laundromat and fighting for machines with other desperate poor people. Can't afford food? Oh boy hours on line at the food bank or food stamp office is just the ticket. You get my point. Everything is made so difficult no matter how simple the task may be on the surface. Is it any wonder that the poor are so beaten down? Their whole lives are reduced to a scrabble for survival.

[KentuckyWoman]

114. You are exactly right

There is nothing quite like spending 2 hrs getting to whatever office / charity that will help..... half of it at least walking.... spending HOURS standing in lines and along the wall in the waiting area.... more often than not with at least 1 child along... only to be told you make $5 too much to qualify for help by someone who could care less and looks at you like you committed a crime.


Fortunately I've not been in that situation but have provided transport and support to people who needed the help. It's just awful. Add in snow, rain etc to the mix and it's a wonder more people don't just give up and crawl into the bottom of a Jim Beam bottle.

[annabanana]

127. poverty is the hardest job in America

exhausting and debilitating and dispiriting

[Marty McGraw]

124. as well as the atrocious

penalties imposed on delinquency payments would keep one's head permanently submerged

[chervilant]

68. I grew up in poverty,

Last edited Wed Dec 2, 2015, 03:30 AM - Edit history (1)

but I was doing pretty good -- until, that is, I found myself working for Countrywide, where I refused to sell sub-prime loans. You can guess how that ended. I then tried to become a teacher, without realizing that the corporate megalomaniacs had already succeeded in vilifying teachers and privatizing schools for enormous profits. Now, I'm overqualified to teach, which simply means school districts would have to pay me more (have a higher degree and teach math) than they'd pay a newbie college grad.

I am struggling to recover from seven years of under- and unemployment. The job I have currently (which I love), pays less than $9 an hour, and I've only gotten close to a forty hour week once. No bennies, it goes without saying. On November 2, I experienced a severe back injury, resulting in severe sciatica. I have been bedridden for almost a month. Actually, it'll be a month tomorrow. I will have to have an MRI, and possible back surgery.

I have had no income for a month, but I had been squirreling away my paychecks for my middle of the month expenses, and those two meager checks paid my bills for December. How lucky is that, given that we poor are such bad money managers?

January is a different story, though. I will have no way to pay rent, utilities, medical, etc. I've started a GoFundMe campaign, but I am one of MILLIONS of people who need help. Plus, it's Christmas.

Oh, and I grew up in an alcoholic home, with lots of abuse, including sexual abuse. I've had to establish boundaries with most of my family, to shield myself from the toxicity.

Happy, happy; joy, joy.

I just keep telling myself: "this, too, shall pass."

[w0nderer]

72. i'm sure both

poverty (not my group) and working poor (group) will happily take you

it will pass eventually
because we work together!

[closeupready]

102. Hang in there! Things will get better.

[historylovr]

4. K & R

[w0nderer]

39. :-)

[Throd]

5. Money provides options.

[w0nderer]

11. this is so true

why don't you move?

cause i don't have first last and security!
Plus moving costs

but it'll be cheaper at the other place

i CAN'T come up with the money up front!

----
change job?

2 weeks without income..possibly you can do that
for me that's called, not eating or paying rent

---

[SusanCalvin]

22. Exactly.

I have never really (knock on wood) been in this position, but, my God, I can see that it is so. I am totally baffled by people who don't see that.

[w0nderer]

28. hope you are never here sister! n/t

[SusanCalvin]

30. Thanks, and I wish nobody was. nt

[Orrex]

98. Yes indeed. I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

Absolutely every piece of financial advice I've ever heard or seen has boiled down to "you simply need to have more money."

[jeff47]

6. The excerpt doesn't even go into some of the more insidious problems.

Like all the employers that will not give you fixed schedule.

How can you budget when you don't know how much money you'll be making? How can you plan when you have no idea when you'll be working next week?

[w0nderer]

12. i do budget

and i'm lucky that my employer gives me a monthly schedule

but he gives it to me a few days into the month

expects my 'vacation' schedule 9 months in advance though :-o


i am one of the few lucky ones who managed to save up
so i got almost 3 months in case i get fired

that's working 2 jobs 1 x10 hour 5.5 days week and one 4 hour 7 days a week

i'm still not pulling more than 28 k per year

[yeoman6987]

29. Holy cow. 7 days a week and not even 30 grand

That is crazy. I give you credit though. I just can't imagine it. I wish everyone was able to make a hundred grand. It makes things easier. Like when the water heater goes out. The only worry is who needs to be home to let the service person in. I still can't believe you only make 28 grand. That is astounding.

[w0nderer]

31. place before last before last!

water heater and washer went out
and we stayed on for 8 months, we couldn't afford to exit the lease

actually (2013) i made 32k
but that was a 'overtime' year

towards the end now i'm making 25k original job doing 10 h 6days/weekly and 5-6 k yearly more on weekly 2-6h for computer stuff

[yeoman6987]

32. You are awesome! I wish you the best.

[w0nderer]

34. same :-)

i know you are or have at least visited 'working poor'

so 'fist bump'

[Wellstone ruled]

7. So many variables,

Geography and Family ties can act like a anchor financially to many.

[ErikJ]

23. +1

good point

[w0nderer]

41. truth, but more often

it's a matter of not being able to move
due to price

[Wellstone ruled]

50. Grew up with and among the so called trapped.

Caught a break and ran with it. Latter was able to rescue a brother and sister and to this day we really understand the what where and why.

[w0nderer]

52. glad to hear it n/t

[Liberal_in_LA]

8. k&r

[w0nderer]

9. Running LEAD....KICK and recommend!

Good on ya

so far looking good
'hellfighter' got ya back as far as i can!

[LiberalArkie]

10. K&R

[LiberalElite]

13. YES!!! - How to have $1,000,000 when you retire - and I'd add: advice concerning layoffs -

also always geared towards managers.

I wrote a letter to the editor (and they printed it) around 10 years ago regarding an article that provided advice that would only help those previously in managerial positions - i.e., Don't worry - you can be a CONSULTANT! The accompanying photo was of a guy lounging on a yacht with a laptop and drink.

I wrote (paraphrasing) " what about those who not only don't have a boat but not even a laptop" "What about the rest of the employees who got the pink slip: the secretaries, cleaning crew, photocopy department, etc." I closed by stating that I looked forward to (paraphrased) job hunting advice for laid off people who weren't managers.

[SusanCalvin]

24. Thank you. nt

[w0nderer]

44. rocks!!

is that the whole article or can you find the whole one

we'd love the whole one in group (working poor) and probably in here for visibility

[LiberalElite]

49. I'll try to find it. eom

[w0nderer]

59. thanks :-)

[2naSalit]

14. K&R

[thatgemguy]

16. I hate

the new buzz term, Wealth Management. Fact is, there just aren't that many wealthy people.

[Electric Monk]

17. It's expensive to be poor

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21663262-why-low-income-americans-often-have-pay-more-its-expensive-be-poor

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/opinion/charles-blow-how-expensive-it-is-to-be-poor.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/01/it-is-expensive-to-be-poor/282979/

[hibbing]

40. My first thought too

Everything is more expensive when you are poor. Plus often you are working without many benefits..

Peace

[riderinthestorm]

20. K&R. A must read. "It actually costs money to save money"

Of course, very little of it was actually practicable. Bulk buying in general is cheaper, but you have to have a lot of money to spend on stuff you don’t actually need yet. Hand-washing saves on the utilities, but nobody actually has time for that. If I could afford to replace stuff before it was worn out, vehicle maintenance wouldn’t be much of an issue, but you really can’t rinse the cheap filters and again—quality costs money up front. In the long term, it makes way more sense to buy a good toaster. But if the good toaster is 30 bucks right now, and the crappiest toaster of them all is 10, it doesn’t matter how many times I have to replace it. Ten bucks it is, because I don’t have any extra tens.

It actually costs money to save money.

[Marrah_G]

21. things are more expensive when you are poor

Things like retirement, saving, vacations, stock, mutual funds etc...those mean nothing to me. The working poor just try to get through each week.

[w0nderer]

45. let me invite you

to the 'working poor' group




but you are so right
week to week day to day

[Marrah_G]

80. Thank you- I didn't know we had one

[w0nderer]

81. :-)

most people don't know we got one

[nxylas]

118. I didn't know we had one either

Unless you count the Bernie Sanders group, that is.

[jwirr]

25. Years ago when I was a smart ass I walked into a bank that

had a sign talking about their economic planners. I was a single mother with three children and one was severely disabled - I was her 24/7 hands on caretaker. I got welfare and $20 child support each month from deadbeat daddy.

I told him that I needed help with my budget. He asked me all the questions and in the end he very honestly apologized that he could do nothing to help me.

But you know what - he did - he honestly told me that it is not as easy as they think to get out of poverty.

[w0nderer]

47. rotflmao

i did the same when corporate sent out a "401" "pension fund" dude

me and my mate spent 3 hours messing with him until he figured out that


gosh..these guys won't retire, they'll work then die without healthcare


then he got this sad look and left

[jwirr]

100. I know they do not get the point until it is placed directly

into their world. After reading a "get a job" editorial in the paper I once sent them a resume for that disabled daughter. They did not publish it and I did not see that kind of editorial again.

That is one of the reasons that I really do not hate Hillary. She does not get it. Not because she doesn't want to but because she truly does not see it.

[ErikJ]

26. I'd say most are trying to live beyond their means, poor at saving

They are brainwashed with ads and peers thinking they need $200 sneakers, the latest iphone, etc. They get their paycheck and think they have to spend every cent of it. If they have a $10 in their pocket they actively look for something to spend it on. Ironically, I think its the inherent subliminal materialism in our society that will never let them get ahead by saving.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

27. It's hard to save when you don't have anything left over at the end of the month.

Your post is pure conservative shit. Most poor are living beyond their means? What an asinine comment.

[Facility Inspector]

35. Pure conservative horseshit

[w0nderer]

51. really?

you are why there is a need for a 'working poor' protected group


i have no shoes over $15
my working pants (the only ones i have) are $20 a piece (i got 2 pairs)
my shirts 3 working $15 each, dress $10 each (not really dress...but closer to dress)
i DO have a cellphone (this allows me to stay in touch with work, friends family and have some internet)



tell me again how i'm brainwashed and need the newest stuff?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

53. Obviously you should only own a burlap sack and two soup cans.

...

[w0nderer]

131. got the soup cans

will a wool blanket work?

along....
with a sharp razor!

[tazkcmo]

108. No one likes a braggar!

You and your fancy $20 pants! Flaunting your wealth is so unseemly.







sarcasm

[w0nderer]

130. appologies

my work made me do it, they said 'working pants, no wrinkles!'

[immoderate]

55. This was alerted -- but we saved your ass.

On Tue Dec 1, 2015, 08:05 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I'd say most are trying to live beyond their means, poor at saving
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7401586

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This is republican thinking

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Dec 1, 2015, 08:09 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Really. Republican thinking? No, I don't think so. I think it's fine; let it stand.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Idiotic bull shit but not a TOS violation. I hope respondents rip it to shreds.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's wrong and stupid but doesn't actually violate any DU rules. We can deal with wrong and stupid. Leave it and explain to the poster how and why they are wrong.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alert is a real stretch. Leave
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: You don't like it -- say so. Don't ban fucking speech!

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.



--imm

[rhett o rick]

126. Thanks for posting that. It shows what we are dealing with even on a "politically liberal" message

board. The Conservatives among us want to alert, lock, hide anything they don't like and ban those they don't like.

The poster made a good point. It might look like blaming the victim but if you know any poor people you will understand that it's a culture they were raised with. Most Americans are faced with the constant barrage of materialism advertising.

It's very hard to "budget" when you continually hit with unexpected expenses.

[DLevine]

129. Bashing the poor is a favorite CONSERVATIVE activity.

Liberals are generally more empathetic. Conservatives love to kick people when they are down. They hate the poor. If only poor people worked harder, or spent their money more wisely. They will tell you people are poor because they are irresponsible. I just hate hearing that kind of crap on DU. Don't pretend you are expressing liberal values when you victim-blame. And in case you're wondering, no, I didn't alert on the post in question.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Ah yes, some wonderful RW pure anti poor propaganda

in one post.

[ErikJ]

73. Not really, I was very poor on food stamps once

I've been relatively poor most of my life, $20K-$30k/yr. But by being very thrifty (on everything) I've been able to save quite a bit and now making more, but I'm STILL very thrifty. I shop at Trader Joes, eat a lot of beans, and simple healthy foods.

I've got most of my clothes at Goodwill (NEVER brandnames) always buy a 10 yr old car and keep it for 10 yrs. I bought a small old dilapidated but cozy house for very cheap which I've fixed up and rarely eat out at nice restaurants etc etc. etc.

But I have friends though that live for almost free (with parents or friends) with fairly good paychecks and theyre always broke. I ask what the hell they spending all their $ on and its like cigs, clothes, eating out, and who knows what else. And then they are always asking me for loans as a result. And they dont use drugs either.

But for those single mothers trying to raise kids on Walmart pay I can understand.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. You friends from your description would not be poor

just a note

[ErikJ]

77. lol. One of their friends they live with is me

he lives in my backyard shed in a tent. I pay for all his utilities and cable TV. I bought a trailer for him to stay in but he likes the shed more!

He makes $10-12,000/yr (with virtually NO rent) and is always asking me for loans. Cant save a dime. Too bad too cuz I'm moving soon and he's going to be homeless again when I do move.

If he wouldve saved a bit of $ he couldve been able to afford a nice little apt by now. I dont know whats going to happen to him. He might be able to keep in the sign biz but he wont have a place to do it and he's getting more immobile every yr. If he just would have saved some money, but he has to spend it all. Worried about him.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. Well he is poor

But at 12,000 a year, well under even the poverty line you expect savings. Ok

You go ahead and judge. I will not

[tazkcmo]

109. "I've been relatively poor most of my life, $20K-$30k/yr"

lol That's way above the poverty rate. You haven't been poor. Neither are your lazy ass friends living off their parents. Try take home pay of 800 a month. Try being evicted because your employer closed the doors while you slept so that when you arrived to work all you get is a sign on a locked door that says "Out of Business". Try being in construction and the banks quit lending money so work dries up literally over night.

!in 2008 I had just started my own remodeling business and was on the way up out of poverty. We all know what happened. I had to sell over $20k in tools I had accumulated over the past 3 years so I could eat and have a roof over my head.

You've never been poor. You've no idea.

[ErikJ]

115. I was making barely anything for many years while on food stamps

$2K-$8K a year. Luckily I found a very cheap apt in a house for $60-$90 a month I lived in for 8 yrs. The landlady was a very kind old devout Catholic who hadnt raised her rent in 30 yrs. She loved me cuz I helped her out with lots of things, mowing, shoveling snow, even helping her to collect rent from ingrate deadbeats a couple times. So I saved a lot of $ on rent. I do feel for people now having to pay $1000 a month rent or more than 50% of their income. But I was determined to find a cheap place to live as I said I'm a cheapskate, which unlike most people I dont care. I'm not a materialistic ahole who needs the latest hottest brandname shit that Madison Ave pimps that you have to have.

[tazkcmo]

116. "Madison Ave pimps that you have to have. "

I own a computer from my dead son, a desk from the curb and the chair that went with it. oh, and my work clothes. I don't know anything about pimps as I can't afford their products.

[ErikJ]

122. I have gotten lots of things from the curb too

Vacuum cleaner, desks, tables, etc. And I make a lot of my own stuff too. But I'm very motivated to save money. My goal is to travel the world for a few years. Not waste it on materialistic shit that I'd probably have to sell or give away anyway.

I'm sorry that u- all are defending Madison Ave and Wall St banks' materialism persuading too many Americans of all classes to live beyond their means. I expected better from DU.

[w0nderer]

60. here's $1000

make the month work!

[ErikJ]

75. lol. With my lifestyle, very easily.

I know somebody that lives on $6000 /yr in an RV and he claims he lives like a king.

[w0nderer]

78. and he started with nothing

cause buying an rv or a house doesn't cost anything???

[ErikJ]

79. Well he now lives on SS

and he claims he spent a couple yrs buying and fixing a couple houses which he made $100 K profit with to buy the RV. But he now lives on about $6000 a yr and probably banks the excess for emergencies or whatever.
He doesnt require much though. Reads and writes and uses internet a lot and lives in free campgrounds or BLM land mostly.

[w0nderer]

82. hey i spent 100 000 buying a house and 150 k on a yacht but hey

i don't have to spend money now!


ie....bullos shitos
not applicable to working poor

but thanks for not playing and showing why silverspoons are so cute

[ErikJ]

84. Silverspoons?

I dont think that guy is a silverspoons. He was retired and probably had enough savings to buy an old fixer upper and use the profit to buy another for more profit to buy a 20 ft RV. He's not working poor but my point is that it is possible to live like a king (as he claims) on $6K a yr.......... if you arent a materialist and are satisfied with the simple things in life!

[w0nderer]

86. ok so as he and you claim he claims

you can live on 6 k a year

let's see that budget!
not counting owning your housing
.....oops he did


i'm sure owning housing and a few pets (chickens goats and similar (i know a few off grid friends doing farming)) that can live on less

but try that in urban environ

Or...



i wanna see your 6 k a year budget or i expect you to shut it....

[Stardust]

91. Free campgrounds?!?

[ErikJ]

92. Yes they exist.

I spent 5 weeks camping free last summer in my minivan camping on US Forest service camps or anywhere for free and also BLM land for free. In cities like San Francisco and Santa Fe I "stealth camped" for free quite easily. Walmart parking lots are always free. And even camped free in national parks like Yosemite and Zion and Grand Canyon. Here's a guide to free campgrounds all over the US.

http://freecampgrounds.com/ I intend to be using it a LOT in the next year or two. Selling my house and buying an RV in a couple months. Patagonia or bust!

[Orrex]

101. That's possibly the silliest suggestion I've ever read

Explain to me how a single mother of two living in downtown Buffalo and earning $6K/year is going to avail herself of these "free campgrounds." She probably doesn't have a working, paid-off car, and buses probably won't pick her up tent-side and drive her to her three jobs. For that matter, school buses probably won't pick her kids up either.

Your ridiculous solution sounds like the standard "advice" given by someone who doesn't actually know what poverty means in the modern world. Yeah, yeah--you were poor and on foodstamps. Assuming that's not a lie, it's also not relevant, because your situation is not everyone's situation, and you fail to recognize the million benefits you lucked into that enabled you to improve your finances.

Frankly, your lack of empathy and understanding make me question your claim of poverty, not to mention the talking points you yanked out of the RW playbook.

[daleanime]

61. I suggest a 24 hour marathon.....

of A Christmas Carol.

[Live and Learn]

66. Meh... nt

[chervilant]

70. I'd say

you are either absolutely clueless about poverty, or you have swallowed the right-wing meme about the poor in this nation, which is a meme almost solely designed to assuage their guilt.

Shame on you.

[Shandris]

87. No, Erik, that's not it. I'll admit there is a function of that in there, but what you may...

...not know is that that element is often excised by those who are intelligent (read: most of us here at the very least, and QUITE the majority of others). Now I know you can find examples of it, and you'd be right (although those examples are often fueled by less obvious, legal methods of cash collection) about those examples...but it's not a common problem like many believe it is.

In fact, the biggest problem in the poor talking with...well, anyone else is simply this: the middle class and above, with few exceptions, are not aware of what they are not aware of. Yes, that IS a Rumsfeld line and intentionally so. They aren't aware that it is more expensive to bank when you're poor; they think it's equal. They have no idea what it's like to cash a tax check; they can just have it direct deposited.

They don't know what it's like to have to find a babysitter for non-conventional hours on the spur of the moment because your second job needs you RIGHT NOW because the third waitress called off and if you don't come in, you can't be 'fired' but your hours will be cut to virtually nothing as punishment and you can't afford that, because rent is due in a week and you won't have time to find a replacement job, buy the things it requires (because many low wage jobs require specific clothing; this is especially true with waitstaff, for instance), and get paid for the work you do (because remember, the first check is always held back and the pay period is typically 2 weeks, so it's 3-4 weeks from the time you start until your first tiny paycheck) before it's due.

Now, you may have noticed that in that long conversation (which is about a split seconds thought for us) I never once had to worry about whether I have a 4K or 3D tv, whether I have an iPhone, whether I have $200 shoes, or whether I have...well, anything other than what I might find at Sav-A-Lot. That's because for the vast, vast majority of real, working people...what you said is a myth. But you CAN find a couple examples, as I mentioned at the opening.

They are the exceptions that prove the rule, Erik.

[Arugula Latte]

88. Are you fucking kidding?!

This is one of the most insulting posts I've ever read.

You really think poor people who make minimum wage or close to it are buying $200 sneakers instead of just trying to pay rent (which is going through the roof in many cities), buy food, pay the utilities, make bus fare, and other boring essentials, you need to get out into the real world more.

[treestar]

93. bullshit

what kind of right wing crap is this?

[DLevine]

95. RW talking points. Sad to see this on DU. nt

[Orrex]

97. I'd say that most of that is victim-blaming garbage

But hey, YMMV.

[tazkcmo]

107. I'd say

You're more ignorant than you realize. Luckily, ignorance is curable with doses of education while stupid is terminal.

I worked 3 jobs while going to school to get my teaching degree then my wife decided she wanted to be with someone who only worked one job and had no children, She told me she was "tired" of being a wife and mother. She left me with 2 boys ages 8 and 10. I couldn't continue my schooling because I needed a FOURTH job to replace her lost income. She even had the gall to ask for our only vehicle so she could get to work. Anyway, the point is, I'm not lazy and resent your saying so.

[JI7]

117. the people who live beyond their means tend to be middle class and higher

Usually upper middle class.

They make enough to live a very good life and buy a lot of extra luxury goods.

But they start thinking they should live like multimillionaire and the most expensive schools and other programs for their kids starting from the time they are born.

[ErikJ]

119. Living beyond your means happens even with the poorest.

Perhaps the most. Americans are saturated with materialistic wants 24/7 by Madison Ave. and the infamous "Jones next door" syndrome. New hot car, more guns, new Nikes , newest iPhone, ad infinitum.

I see my "Jones next door" buying a shiney brand new giant gas-guzzling pickup that he'll be paying on for 20 yrs and I go "What an idiot". No wonder he's poor. Americans need to forget materialism, live simpler lives and save more money no matter what income level.

[JI7]

121. how was he asks to buy it ?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

54. What?

"Poor people will steal your shit"?

[w0nderer]

62. scuse the shit outta you?

but what?


i'll steal your shit?
let's see if you are middle or upper class more likely you STOLE it from me!

[pnwmom]

43. Great article. Thanks. n/t

[w0nderer]

64. come join us in working poor group

[pnwmom]

69. Is it open to supporters?

[w0nderer]

71. put it this way pnwmom

are you going to rip us or tell us to eat bean and rice only?

no?

c'mon over
hang out
if you got experience as working poor, share it!



working poor is a protected group
so 'hey just eat rice and beans and change your ways' << isn't cool

[Live and Learn]

48. K&R nt

[w0nderer]

65. :-)

see us if you are one..in working poor group

[StarzGuy]

63. Just One Major Illness Away

I never thought that I would become disabled that I could no longer work. I had a home, a new truck and an RV. Then I became ill to the point where work wasn't an option anymore.

I lost my home and used what little money I had to pay off my RV. I ended up living in the RV for several years at the lot rental rate of $600/month. I ended up on disability and a small pension. The cost of the RV park was more than my house payment, what a rip off. And, of course, the rate kept creeping up.

5 years later I am in an apartment at $650/month. I had difficulty coming up with all the deposits but my landlord allowed me to pay for some of the deposits over time. It took 6 months to completely giving all the deposit monies I owed. I also have to pay for my own utilities, electricity, water/sewer, gas...each with their own deposit requirements.

What little increase I get doesn't even begin to cover my cost increases for just about everything. Now, those of us on SSDI will not be getting even the meager increase next year because some cost index shows low inflation. I'm 61 now and will be on SSDI until I reach 655 then I get switched over to traditional social security. I also have Medicare and even it has a yearly deductible I'm responsible to pay, which I can't because I can't even get through the month without food help from St Mary's Food Bank.

Now I understand that my disability payments will be cut 20% unless congress acts next year. That will mean I will lose my apartment and probably back into my RV, which needs some serious repairs and thus isn't usable and I don't have the money to get it fixed.

Is it no wonder why people commit suicide?

[w0nderer]

67. it's no wonder but i'd rather see you in

working poor group

you have ideas and stories to tell
we all want them

listening to the rich 'asses' will only mess you up

in working poor we all try to work to help to get resources for eachother

[tazkcmo]

113. StarzGuy

I have very little but I do have a one bedroom apartment. I don't own a bed or any other furniture beyond my computer desk and office chair. As a result, the bedroom is unused and empty and if sh*t hits the fan you are welcome to it. I'm in San Antonio, TX and I don't know right off hand how to get you here but by Dog, I will if you need the help. Suicide is NOT an option for you. People care. I have something in my eye now.

[Enthusiast]

123. How do feel about 60 Minutes and their assertion that every recipient of disability was a fraud?

That is exactly what they said.

Nation of Change ran a similar hit piece some years back.

Seems like 60 Minutes didn't have much to say about the Iraq War profiteers.

I refuse to turn on CBS unless it is for specific programming that includes no propaganda, like a football game. And I am clear done with Nation of Change.

[madamesilverspurs]

74. I get a kick

out of watching those "house hunter" and remodeling shows on TV.

"You want your whole kitchen redone for only $50,000? You can't be serious!"

"We're looking to buy a vacation home, but we're on a strict budget and can't go over $250K."

"They call this a master suite? There's only one walk-in closet, and there's no bidet in the bathroom!"

"These granite countertops would never do, I'd be embarrassed to have the caterers see them!"

"That pool is all wrong. I need one that my dogs will like."



My only income is my social security check, my annual take is less than $10K. But I already own a bigger clue than some of those people will ever buy.

[slipslidingaway]

83. The rich get richer ...

there is something to be said for all the old saying we grew up with, sure we can make good and bad decisions, but sometimes our luck runs out and anything we do is just not enough. We're all just one tragedy away from becoming poor. That is why two thirds of the people who filed medical bankruptcy had insurance. We might be able to do to without a fridge or even a car, if there is mass transit and that can be expensive, but have a major medical problem and you are screwed.

Even if you make good choices and save for retirement it can all be wiped out by an illness. IMHO a healthy society is a productive and sustainable society.

The rich get richer and poor get poorer, so give a hand if you can to help set someone on a more sustainable path. A little boost can mean so much to many people.

We are all in this world together.

[Scruffy1]

89. My father understood this well.

Having grown up very poor in the dust bowl he managed to become an Army officer and had a doctorate. He never lost his empathy for the poor. One time as a teenager I made a disparaging comment about a poor family and immediately got "the look". His words are indelibly etched in my brain:"Poor people have poor ways." It's part of the condition of poverty. I see it every day. It manifests itself in many ways. Believing in luck because reality is to grim and hoping to win a scratch off ticket. Being focused on surviving the day or week and making bad long term decisions. Borrowing at high interest rates because maybe something good will happen next month. Trying to show status with bling and clothes. Living in a fantasy land of sports.
The only way to stop the destruction is to end poverty. I remember as a teacher unfed students trying to pay attention with their bellies growling. If we can spend trillions on the military we can end poverty. The only thing that stops us is the belief that those of us who are not poor somehow earned it and the poor deserve being poor. From my own experience it's more of an accident of birth than a failing. Yes, my father father made it out of poverty from the 30's but he also was lucky to come of age when the economy had improved, was born with great mental and physical ability. he could have tuned into a neoliberal jerk, but knew the truth.

[inanna]

90. "Precarious employment" is the new fangled term

for people who are employed (mostly service sector) with no benefits, no hope in hell of becoming full-time permanent, along with those shape-shifting schedules. We've gotta be "flexible" - ya know? One week you work 40+ hours - the next maybe 20.

Stuck doing those clopening shifts? Well, like it or lump it. This is the trend. This is the "service economy".

I like my job. I'm very good at what I do. I love (most of) my co-workers. Believe it or not - I adore my direct boss. He does the best he can for all of us. But I also know he's caught in an impossible position at times because of his bosses.

Most people who are poor do work - and they work damn hard. It still ain't enough in these times.

Side note: both my brother and I noticed one of the local grocery stores in town advertising ground beef on sale at the "rock bottom" price of $2.99 lb. - a savings of $2.19 per lb. That's right. Around here, ground beef now costs over five bucks a pound - and it hardly ever goes on sale anymore....

Thanks for the thread.

[spinbaby]

94. To make money off the poor, you have to keep them poor.

Forget where I heard that quote, but it's always stuck with me.

[2naSalit]

96. Good quote!! nt

[YoungDemCA]

99. B-b-but whadabout bootstrappin', rags-to-riches *insert anecdote here*

K&R.

[KamaAina]

105. Barbara Ehrenreich nailed this topic in "Nickel and Dimed"

http://www.amazon.com/Nickel-Dimed-Not-Getting-America/dp/0312626681/ref=sr_1_1

[Spitfire of ATJ]

110. What annoys me is middle class people who actually ARE sloppy with their money....

I know someone who put everything on autopay and regularly pays over three hundred bucks a month on bounce fees and he doesn't CARE.

[lumberjack_jeff]

111. Sometimes they are. In fact, Linda herself became famous for writing ...

Why Poor People's Bad Decisions Make Perfect Sense

I have a close family member who is Linda, but marginally insulated from the worst consequences of shitty decisions ("we spend our money on experiences, not material things&quot by a middle-class paycheck that due to poor management provides a substistence living. The all-too-frequent interruptions of that paycheck create chronic catastrophe.

One avoids poverty by turning income into assets (wealth). "Experiences" are a shitty retirement portfolio.

[Prism]

112. We need a "How to be poor" classes

Which is a statement in and of itself, but it's actually very expensive to be poor.

Funny but painfully true article about being poor:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-nobody-tells-you-about-being-poor/

Being poor in America is actually counterintuitive. A lot of decisions that seem like the right ones at the moment are actually terrible for you long-term. Take owning a car. If you're poor, you might buy a beater just to cope. But then, because it's a beater, you're fixing and replacing this, that, and the other thing. If you had saved or delayed or (have the ability) financed a better car, long term, you'd pay less.

Same with food. Costco? Go for it (if you have a fridge and freezer and the $55 for membership, and one actually near you).

Shitty shoes? No, buy the more expensive good shoes damnit.

And on. And on. And on. And on.

In the heat of the moment, in the immediacy of need, people make poor economic decision that ultimately cost them.

It's expensive to be poor in America. But if we taught people to make slightly better decisions, we could alleviate it a little bit. Just a little bit. It still sucks to be poor. (I was poor as recently as five years ago. I worked up bit by bit to middle class because I was once a financial advisor and knew how to avoid the exploitive nature of a lot of things poor people think of as simple aspects of their lives).

[Dont call me Shirley]

125. Both my husband and I have done worse than our middle class parents and our kids are doing

worse than us.

[happyslug]

128. This was posted December 8, 2014 on DU, here is that thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025927418