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mitty14u2

(1,015 posts)
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:08 AM Dec 2015

4 Million Muslims Killed In Western Wars: Should We Call It Genocide? Aug 2015



AUSTIN, Texas — It may never be possible to know the true death toll of the modern Western wars on the Middle East, but that figure could be 4 million or higher. Since the vast majority of those killed were of Arab descent, and mostly Muslim, when would it be fair to accuse the United States and its allies of genocide?

A March report by Physicians for Social Responsibility calculates the body count of the Iraq War at around 1.3 million, and possibly as many as 2 million. However, the numbers of those killed in Middle Eastern warscould be much higher. In April, investigative journalist Nafeez Ahmed argued that the actual death toll could reach as high as 4 million if one includes not just those killed in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but also the victims of the sanctions against Iraq, which left about 1.7 million more dead, half of them children, according to figures from the United Nations.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/4-million-muslims-killed-in-western-wars-should-we-call-it-genocide/208711/

Hating Muslims is not Christians, what would Jesus do?

Wow I had no idea that’s how many have been killed; I bet the rest of America has no idea either. If a Born Again Christian killed over 100 thousand Iraqis and injured Tens of thousands more should we hate all born again Christians? I cant see hating all Muslims but I think if nothing else we should do a lot of fence mending of every kind. If we spent a million dollars on medicine to tents a month would be a start in every town that we bombed. It would save us millions more or ten fold and help mend are stupidity and ignorance! Hating Muslims is not Christians, what would Jesus do?
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4 Million Muslims Killed In Western Wars: Should We Call It Genocide? Aug 2015 (Original Post) mitty14u2 Dec 2015 OP
It could be Kalidurga Dec 2015 #1
Right now we are not in a major leadership role on the war overseas yeoman6987 Dec 2015 #2
We still have too many bases Kalidurga Dec 2015 #5
During the Iran-Iraq War, the Reagan-Bush Admin. was open leveymg Dec 2015 #3
The 4M figure is pure crap Yorktown Dec 2015 #4
Really now malaise Dec 2015 #6
If I sell a gun to someone who ends up using it, am I a murderer? Yorktown Dec 2015 #7
Murderer? Some here say yes. cherokeeprogressive Dec 2015 #13
Well, these folks are extreme. Yorktown Dec 2015 #14
Only some. cherokeeprogressive Dec 2015 #17
Back to your original point to me Yorktown Dec 2015 #18
I am a non-murderous gun owner. cherokeeprogressive Dec 2015 #24
The US deliberately seeks out and arms the worst elements in the Middle East. cpwm17 Dec 2015 #25
It is arrogance to believe everyone is a puppet of the malefic USA empire Yorktown Dec 2015 #30
Saudi Arabia is one of the villains in this equation. cpwm17 Dec 2015 #31
The decadence of the Muslim world started before the USA even existed Yorktown Dec 2015 #32
No, 'genocide' involves intention and agency muriel_volestrangler Dec 2015 #9
Well credible sources suggest that over one million malaise Dec 2015 #10
mostly by, as I said, other Muslims muriel_volestrangler Dec 2015 #12
Hear, hear. Yorktown Dec 2015 #15
Where did Saddam get that gas? The West provided it so Iraq could gas Iranians. leveymg Dec 2015 #22
It would be interesting to see how much Muslims were killed due to the policies of the Assad, still_one Dec 2015 #27
Add to that the 1 to 1.5 million Afghans killed during the Soviet invasion and occupation. n/t pampango Dec 2015 #8
Sure we should. Absolutely. nt. polly7 Dec 2015 #11
What does the term Genocide refer to? I thought it was a deliberate attempt to eradicate a el_bryanto Dec 2015 #16
Genocidal activities include arming and assisting ethnic groups trying to wipe out rival ethnics. leveymg Dec 2015 #23
If it was genocide, we'd have finished the job in a month. randome Dec 2015 #19
No. kiva Dec 2015 #20
For oil. Octafish Dec 2015 #21
No Marrah_G Dec 2015 #26
Muslims don't need the West to kill each other. Throd Dec 2015 #28
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2015 #29
 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
2. Right now we are not in a major leadership role on the war overseas
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:40 AM
Dec 2015

Russia and France have taken our place. We'll see how long we can stay out of it.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
3. During the Iran-Iraq War, the Reagan-Bush Admin. was open
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 02:21 AM
Dec 2015

In acknowledging its joy in enabling both sides to kill more than a million of each other. Sec. Clinton and Director Petraeus similarly pursued an arm the Sunnis to weaken Shi'ia states strategy. In a word, genocidal.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
4. The 4M figure is pure crap
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 02:27 AM
Dec 2015

Saddam brought sanctions on himself by invading Kuwait and by gassing the Iraqi Kurds.

And if the Iraqu invasion was criminal stupidity on GW's part, the death toll post invasion was mostly due to Sunni/Shia power jockeying.

To lay those 4M dead at the doorstep of the West is rather disingenuous.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
7. If I sell a gun to someone who ends up using it, am I a murderer?
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 05:04 AM
Dec 2015

Saddam and the Shia/Sunni loons killed 4M people.

Yes, GW prompted them into it, but he didn't willingly hold the trigger.

(GW is greedy and xtra-super dumb, but probably not evil to the core)

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
18. Back to your original point to me
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 09:37 AM
Dec 2015

Do you yourself equate ownership of a gun with murderous intent?

I personally am a non-violent vegetarian. I bear no violent gruge to anyone.

If I buy a gun tomorrow, would that make me a murderer?

Or would anyone holding that opinion be rather extreme in their judgments?

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
25. The US deliberately seeks out and arms the worst elements in the Middle East.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:50 AM
Dec 2015

Most of the Middle East had been much more secular and peaceful.

The US armed the fundies to fight the commies. Most of the crazies were concentrated in US supported Saudi Arabia. The US very much helped spread the ideology. With the constant US brutalization of the entire region, that set up an environment where conservative religious views can much more easily spread.

The US also arms and supports the most brutal leaders, including supporting Saddam in his unprovoked war against Iran. The US helped in the creation of Iraq's chemical weapons program and supplied the intelligence on how to employ the chemical weapons against Iran, the very same Iran that the US had overthrown their secular leader and installed the brutal Shah.

The US helps in the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and Israel's brutalization of all of Israel's neighbors.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/eye-opening-graphic-map-of-muslim-countries-that-the-u-s-and-israel-have-bombed/

This “three-decade war for domination of the Middle East” becomes apparent when we consider how many Muslim countries the peace-loving United States and her “stalwart ally” Israel have bombed:...

Under Barack Obama, the U.S. is currently bombing Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and Libya. According to some reports (see here and here), we can add Iran to this ever-expanding list. [Update: An Informed Comment reader named Shannon pointed out that in fact the United States bombed Iran in 1988 during Operating Praying Mantis, an act that “cannot be justified” according to the International Court of Justice.]

Thanks to American arms and funding, our “stalwart ally” Israel has bombed every single one of its neighbors, including Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. Israel has also bombed Tunisia and Iraq (how many times can Americans and Israelis bomb this country?).

The total number of Muslim countries that America and Israel have bombed comes to fourteen: Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, Iran, Sudan, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Tunisia.

This is something approaching genocide.
 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
30. It is arrogance to believe everyone is a puppet of the malefic USA empire
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 09:38 PM
Dec 2015

Saddam, the Saudis have agency: they had their own will.

Saudi Arabia propagates wahhabism to perpetuate their corrupt and decadent regime,

Saddam did what megalomaniac tyrants do. Ditto for Bachar.

If it rains tomorrow in the Bekaa Valley, it won't be Obama's fault.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
31. Saudi Arabia is one of the villains in this equation.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:18 PM
Dec 2015

The US and Israel are also major players in the destruction of the Middle East. If you could turn back the clock and eliminate those three nations' influence from the region, current history would change very much for the better – though other nations may have entered the void.

Inevitably when powerful nations spend a lot of time brutalizing weaker nations a lot of bad will happen. A more extreme case was Cambodia after Nixon bombed the shit out of that nation. It allowed the Khmer Rouge to gain power. The Khmer Rouge was a small movement that would never have taken control without the mass slaughter and destruction of farm lands by the US.

Much of the Middle East had a diverse population, and some still has, that has managed to mostly get along for centuries. Why did they suddenly fall apart when the US started supporting and arming brutal leaders and religious kooks, and overthrowing secular leaders? Is that just a coincidence? Obviously it isn't a coincidence.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
32. The decadence of the Muslim world started before the USA even existed
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 11:04 PM
Dec 2015

Mostly because the Islamic faith has a much stronger grip on society than Christianity had.

Even by the end of the Middle Ages, the contestation of the Church was active in Europe in ways much greater than anything existing today in the Muslim world. It flourished during the Enlightenment, and Hume or Voltaire have no equivalent in the Muslim world today (where you still have religious figures arguing the earth is flat because the Quran says so).

As a consequence, the Muslim GDP/head which was superior to the western GDP per head in the year 1000 reached parity circa 1300 and was left way behind by 1500-1600.
Nothing to do with the USA, all to do with the economy and religion.


Edit: on another point you make, you greatly underestimate the historical Muslim internal strife
Just look at the history of Muslim rule in Spain as an extreme example. On a greater scale, the caliphal succession wars. Or the Shia/Sunni conflicts in History.

muriel_volestrangler

(100,967 posts)
9. No, 'genocide' involves intention and agency
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 06:32 AM
Dec 2015

The West is involved in it, but there isn't an intention (for 'the West' in general, anyway - a few nutters do want Muslims in general dead) for the mass deaths, and the agents are largely other people in the Middle East - most of whom happen to be Muslims too.

malaise

(266,702 posts)
10. Well credible sources suggest that over one million
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 06:39 AM
Dec 2015

Iraqis were killed in that illegal war and occupation in Iraq

muriel_volestrangler

(100,967 posts)
12. mostly by, as I said, other Muslims
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 08:05 AM
Dec 2015

so that it can't be described as 'a genocide of Muslims', nor by the West. The deaths of up to 6 million in the DRC in the last 20 years were not 'a genocide of Christians'.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
22. Where did Saddam get that gas? The West provided it so Iraq could gas Iranians.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:13 AM
Dec 2015

On the other side, the U.S. and Israel provided Iran with missiles and spare parts for US-made aircraft. It was called Iran-Contra. Remember?

still_one

(91,471 posts)
27. It would be interesting to see how much Muslims were killed due to the policies of the Assad,
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:59 AM
Dec 2015

Kaddafi, Husseins and the like

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
16. What does the term Genocide refer to? I thought it was a deliberate attempt to eradicate a
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 09:26 AM
Dec 2015

race or ethnicity? Is that what the West is trying to do?

Bryant

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
23. Genocidal activities include arming and assisting ethnic groups trying to wipe out rival ethnics.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:19 AM
Dec 2015

Last edited Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:58 AM - Edit history (1)

The result need not be complete eradication, merely "ethnic cleansing" by specific targeting in conflicts where the distinction between military and civilian targets is nil. Ethnic cleansing is a genocidal activity.

That's what the US has done repeatedly in the Mideast. The arming of Sunni tribes in the Petraeus signature "Awakening" or "Sons of Iraq" programs are an example of arming and setting ethnic groups against each other, as is his and Sec. Clinton's arming the Sunni Jihadi opposition to overthrow the regime in Syria. These are related, as many of the Iraqi Awakening program militias coalesced with ISIS in Syria.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
19. If it was genocide, we'd have finished the job in a month.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 09:52 AM
Dec 2015

It isn't. The Muslim world is as much of a danger to itself as anyone else.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)
[/center][/font][hr]

kiva

(4,373 posts)
20. No.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:00 AM
Dec 2015
http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext-printerfriendly.htm

The legal definition of genocide (Including Discussion and Key terms)

The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.
Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide (For full text click here)

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide. "



Octafish

(55,745 posts)
21. For oil.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:11 AM
Dec 2015

On Dec. 8, 1992, after George Herbert Walker Bush was defeated at the polls by Bill Clinton with an assist from Ross Perot, he ordered the U.S. military into Somalia. Operation RESTORE HOPE was sold at the time as a "Humanitarian Mission," a phrase rarely used in conjunction with anything the guy did as president, as vice-president, as a Congressman from Texas or in his time at CIA for anyone other than his cronies and partners in crime.



What Poppy Bush's last new mission in Somalia did accomplish was to leave a crisis -- a huge dog turd in a burning bag of a crisis -- on the welcome mat at the front door of the White House for incoming President Bill Clinton. After that, things got off on the "right foot," from peace and prosperity for all to healthcare for the public and continued welfare for the wealthy. And the humanitarian mission? It quickly devolved into a fiasco of the first order, culminating in the disaster seared into the public consciousness as "Black Hawk Down."

Oh. Not that it's on tee vee or anything where millions might see it, but we're still in Somalia and a whole lotta places more where "brown" people are mowed down like grass on the fairway.

Response to mitty14u2 (Original post)

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