4 Million Muslims Killed In Western Wars: Should We Call It Genocide? Aug 2015

[mitty14u2]

AUSTIN, Texas — It may never be possible to know the true death toll of the modern Western wars on the Middle East, but that figure could be 4 million or higher. Since the vast majority of those killed were of Arab descent, and mostly Muslim, when would it be fair to accuse the United States and its allies of genocide?

A March report by Physicians for Social Responsibility calculates the body count of the Iraq War at around 1.3 million, and possibly as many as 2 million. However, the numbers of those killed in Middle Eastern warscould be much higher. In April, investigative journalist Nafeez Ahmed argued that the actual death toll could reach as high as 4 million if one includes not just those killed in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but also the victims of the sanctions against Iraq, which left about 1.7 million more dead, half of them children, according to figures from the United Nations.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/4-million-muslims-killed-in-western-wars-should-we-call-it-genocide/208711/

Hating Muslims is not Christians, what would Jesus do?

Wow I had no idea that’s how many have been killed; I bet the rest of America has no idea either. If a Born Again Christian killed over 100 thousand Iraqis and injured Tens of thousands more should we hate all born again Christians? I cant see hating all Muslims but I think if nothing else we should do a lot of fence mending of every kind. If we spent a million dollars on medicine to tents a month would be a start in every town that we bombed. It would save us millions more or ten fold and help mend are stupidity and ignorance! Hating Muslims is not Christians, what would Jesus do?

[Kalidurga]

1. It could be

For sure the US needs to stop being in the business of making war.

[yeoman6987]

2. Right now we are not in a major leadership role on the war overseas

Russia and France have taken our place. We'll see how long we can stay out of it.

[Kalidurga]

5. We still have too many bases

too many nukes
too many war ships and all the other war toys.

[leveymg]

3. During the Iran-Iraq War, the Reagan-Bush Admin. was open

In acknowledging its joy in enabling both sides to kill more than a million of each other. Sec. Clinton and Director Petraeus similarly pursued an arm the Sunnis to weaken Shi'ia states strategy. In a word, genocidal.

[Yorktown]

4. The 4M figure is pure crap

Saddam brought sanctions on himself by invading Kuwait and by gassing the Iraqi Kurds.

And if the Iraqu invasion was criminal stupidity on GW's part, the death toll post invasion was mostly due to Sunni/Shia power jockeying.

To lay those 4M dead at the doorstep of the West is rather disingenuous.

[malaise]

6. Really now

It is genocide on the part of the West.

Never forget who gave Saddam the gas.

[Yorktown]

7. If I sell a gun to someone who ends up using it, am I a murderer?

Saddam and the Shia/Sunni loons killed 4M people.

Yes, GW prompted them into it, but he didn't willingly hold the trigger.

(GW is greedy and xtra-super dumb, but probably not evil to the core)

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. Murderer? Some here say yes.

Some here equate ownership of a gun with murderous intent.

[Yorktown]

14. Well, these folks are extreme.

My 2 cents.

[cherokeeprogressive]

17. Only some.

Very few actually.

[Yorktown]

18. Back to your original point to me

Do you yourself equate ownership of a gun with murderous intent?

I personally am a non-violent vegetarian. I bear no violent gruge to anyone.

If I buy a gun tomorrow, would that make me a murderer?

Or would anyone holding that opinion be rather extreme in their judgments?

[cherokeeprogressive]

24. I am a non-murderous gun owner.

I hope that answers your question.

[cpwm17]

25. The US deliberately seeks out and arms the worst elements in the Middle East.

Most of the Middle East had been much more secular and peaceful.

The US armed the fundies to fight the commies. Most of the crazies were concentrated in US supported Saudi Arabia. The US very much helped spread the ideology. With the constant US brutalization of the entire region, that set up an environment where conservative religious views can much more easily spread.

The US also arms and supports the most brutal leaders, including supporting Saddam in his unprovoked war against Iran. The US helped in the creation of Iraq's chemical weapons program and supplied the intelligence on how to employ the chemical weapons against Iran, the very same Iran that the US had overthrown their secular leader and installed the brutal Shah.

The US helps in the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and Israel's brutalization of all of Israel's neighbors.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/eye-opening-graphic-map-of-muslim-countries-that-the-u-s-and-israel-have-bombed/

This “three-decade war for domination of the Middle East” becomes apparent when we consider how many Muslim countries the peace-loving United States and her “stalwart ally” Israel have bombed:...

Under Barack Obama, the U.S. is currently bombing Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and Libya. According to some reports (see here and here), we can add Iran to this ever-expanding list. [Update: An Informed Comment reader named Shannon pointed out that in fact the United States bombed Iran in 1988 during Operating Praying Mantis, an act that “cannot be justified” according to the International Court of Justice.]

Thanks to American arms and funding, our “stalwart ally” Israel has bombed every single one of its neighbors, including Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. Israel has also bombed Tunisia and Iraq (how many times can Americans and Israelis bomb this country?).

The total number of Muslim countries that America and Israel have bombed comes to fourteen: Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, Iran, Sudan, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Tunisia.

This is something approaching genocide.

[Yorktown]

30. It is arrogance to believe everyone is a puppet of the malefic USA empire

Saddam, the Saudis have agency: they had their own will.

Saudi Arabia propagates wahhabism to perpetuate their corrupt and decadent regime,

Saddam did what megalomaniac tyrants do. Ditto for Bachar.

If it rains tomorrow in the Bekaa Valley, it won't be Obama's fault.

[cpwm17]

31. Saudi Arabia is one of the villains in this equation.

The US and Israel are also major players in the destruction of the Middle East. If you could turn back the clock and eliminate those three nations' influence from the region, current history would change very much for the better – though other nations may have entered the void.

Inevitably when powerful nations spend a lot of time brutalizing weaker nations a lot of bad will happen. A more extreme case was Cambodia after Nixon bombed the shit out of that nation. It allowed the Khmer Rouge to gain power. The Khmer Rouge was a small movement that would never have taken control without the mass slaughter and destruction of farm lands by the US.

Much of the Middle East had a diverse population, and some still has, that has managed to mostly get along for centuries. Why did they suddenly fall apart when the US started supporting and arming brutal leaders and religious kooks, and overthrowing secular leaders? Is that just a coincidence? Obviously it isn't a coincidence.

[Yorktown]

32. The decadence of the Muslim world started before the USA even existed

Mostly because the Islamic faith has a much stronger grip on society than Christianity had.

Even by the end of the Middle Ages, the contestation of the Church was active in Europe in ways much greater than anything existing today in the Muslim world. It flourished during the Enlightenment, and Hume or Voltaire have no equivalent in the Muslim world today (where you still have religious figures arguing the earth is flat because the Quran says so).

As a consequence, the Muslim GDP/head which was superior to the western GDP per head in the year 1000 reached parity circa 1300 and was left way behind by 1500-1600.
Nothing to do with the USA, all to do with the economy and religion.


Edit: on another point you make, you greatly underestimate the historical Muslim internal strife
Just look at the history of Muslim rule in Spain as an extreme example. On a greater scale, the caliphal succession wars. Or the Shia/Sunni conflicts in History.

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. No, 'genocide' involves intention and agency

The West is involved in it, but there isn't an intention (for 'the West' in general, anyway - a few nutters do want Muslims in general dead) for the mass deaths, and the agents are largely other people in the Middle East - most of whom happen to be Muslims too.

[malaise]

10. Well credible sources suggest that over one million

Iraqis were killed in that illegal war and occupation in Iraq

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. mostly by, as I said, other Muslims

so that it can't be described as 'a genocide of Muslims', nor by the West. The deaths of up to 6 million in the DRC in the last 20 years were not 'a genocide of Christians'.

[Yorktown]

15. Hear, hear.

Well put.

[leveymg]

22. Where did Saddam get that gas? The West provided it so Iraq could gas Iranians.

On the other side, the U.S. and Israel provided Iran with missiles and spare parts for US-made aircraft. It was called Iran-Contra. Remember?

[still_one]

27. It would be interesting to see how much Muslims were killed due to the policies of the Assad,

Kaddafi, Husseins and the like

[pampango]

8. Add to that the 1 to 1.5 million Afghans killed during the Soviet invasion and occupation. n/t

[polly7]

11. Sure we should. Absolutely. nt.

[el_bryanto]

16. What does the term Genocide refer to? I thought it was a deliberate attempt to eradicate a

race or ethnicity? Is that what the West is trying to do?

Bryant

[leveymg]

23. Genocidal activities include arming and assisting ethnic groups trying to wipe out rival ethnics.

Last edited Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:58 AM - Edit history (1)

The result need not be complete eradication, merely "ethnic cleansing" by specific targeting in conflicts where the distinction between military and civilian targets is nil. Ethnic cleansing is a genocidal activity.

That's what the US has done repeatedly in the Mideast. The arming of Sunni tribes in the Petraeus signature "Awakening" or "Sons of Iraq" programs are an example of arming and setting ethnic groups against each other, as is his and Sec. Clinton's arming the Sunni Jihadi opposition to overthrow the regime in Syria. These are related, as many of the Iraqi Awakening program militias coalesced with ISIS in Syria.

[randome]

19. If it was genocide, we'd have finished the job in a month.

It isn't. The Muslim world is as much of a danger to itself as anyone else.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[kiva]

20. No.

http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext-printerfriendly.htm

The legal definition of genocide (Including Discussion and Key terms)

The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.
Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide (For full text click here)

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide. "

[Octafish]

21. For oil.

On Dec. 8, 1992, after George Herbert Walker Bush was defeated at the polls by Bill Clinton with an assist from Ross Perot, he ordered the U.S. military into Somalia. Operation RESTORE HOPE was sold at the time as a "Humanitarian Mission," a phrase rarely used in conjunction with anything the guy did as president, as vice-president, as a Congressman from Texas or in his time at CIA for anyone other than his cronies and partners in crime.



What Poppy Bush's last new mission in Somalia did accomplish was to leave a crisis -- a huge dog turd in a burning bag of a crisis -- on the welcome mat at the front door of the White House for incoming President Bill Clinton. After that, things got off on the "right foot," from peace and prosperity for all to healthcare for the public and continued welfare for the wealthy. And the humanitarian mission? It quickly devolved into a fiasco of the first order, culminating in the disaster seared into the public consciousness as "Black Hawk Down."

Oh. Not that it's on tee vee or anything where millions might see it, but we're still in Somalia and a whole lotta places more where "brown" people are mowed down like grass on the fairway.

[Marrah_G]

26. No

Words have meanings.

[Throd]

28. Muslims don't need the West to kill each other.

They are quite capable of doing it on their own.