General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAm I the only one who does not understand why none of these idiots are being arrested?
They are roaming around, going into town, etc.
It seems to me all of them are breaking the law.
Why have no warrants been issued?
Is this technically not illegal?
This seems like a farce.
Any good reason not to arrest them?
stage left
(2,967 posts)They should all be in jail already.
Dustlawyer
(10,499 posts)Cops only go after un-armed men and women.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)They are just a bunch of crazed white older dudes. If they were crazed POC then they would be arrested.
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)any sort of justice, and in fact, the penalties just keep racking up the longer these guys continue to act like idiots.
Letting them continue with their juvenile antics doesn't harm anyone, doesn't really cost anything, (certainly not on the scale of keeping law enforcement in full gear 24 hours a day, on high alert) and just keeps building the cases against more and more of these nuts.
It makes no sense to endanger anyone's life for these boys and their toys. They can be held accountable financially once this mess is over; they'll be responsible for any damages to the building and grounds.
They can be held responsible for any costs incurred at the hands of law enforcement, plus, there is grounds for a great lawsuit by the government and localities.
They'll be prosecuted to the fullest extend of the law once they come crawling back to civilization.
Their court cases will cost the taxpayers money, and while justice may not be swift, it will come eventually.
I'm very happy with the passive attitude of law enforcement. As long as these nitwits aren't posing a danger to anyone else but themselves, that's fine. Chances are good too that their own tensions will escalate and maybe they'll even shoot each other. I'd be ok with them cleaning out their own end of the gene pool, so long as no one else is at risk.
I have complete confidence that this will end well, with patience.
CanonRay
(14,132 posts)what world are you in?
And by the way, nobody was prosecuted "to the fullest extent of the law" after the Nevada standoff. Nobody was arrested. Period.
The passive attitude of law enforcement will only serve to embolden them. I don't want another Oklahoma City.
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)Their only danger is to themselves and the idiots they surround themselves with. I see a win-win here, because hopefully with all their loaded guns, I bet within a week they start shooting each other. Especially when they run out of pretzels and beer.
Going in, guns blazing, starting a shoot-out JUST to arrest them for trespassing and a few dozen other minor offenses is pointless. They're some 40 miles from any communities, so let them do the crap they're doing and hang themselves out to dry.
Justice WILL come eventually. The guys they're 'defending' are still going to serve their time in jail; at some point in time Bundy's million dollars in fines will be levied against his property, which he can now never sell because of that.
Remember, it was taxes that brought down the mafia... the same will eventually happen here in this huge, silly circle.
I only wish that the official would jam their mobile phones and cut off the water. That would be pretty funny, but very passive aggressive. It's going to be a long, cold winter.
CanonRay
(14,132 posts)they are keeping the kids home from school.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)...given that the occupation is taking place 30 miles away.
Rex
(65,616 posts)30 miles is nothing to someone with a truck.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Curt power to the compound, too. The militants have been given multiple opportunities to end the occupation. Time to tighten the screws.
But my point was that the school closure is only justifiable by the fact that they needed somewhere to locate the influx of law enforcement, etc. (and not because of any danger to students) There's been time to find a better logistics solution.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Maybe there are FBI agents in Ghilli suits out there...but seriously...WTF? The armed morons can go anywhere they want to in a truck in no time and with as much ammo as they want.
Crazy stuff imo.
doc03
(35,431 posts)reported in another post here on DU. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027516358
randys1
(16,286 posts)We have two Americas, this situation in OR is a textbook example.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Some harsh views you have of the President and AG Lynch.
ladyVet
(1,587 posts)Given a shitty trial and thrown under the prison.
If they were black, they'd have been dead days ago.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)Tarpman took a reporter through the building on a tour and exposed this.
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)If the building held any important information, it's likely it would have been better secured.
These guys aren't the brightest bulbs in the pack.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)from people breaking in after hours and using their tags to access privileged information or going through their files, they should have been better secured" ploy?
They have threatened the Sheriff's family, wife and parents. They have accessed information including ss#s on other employees now. And it's "not a big deal"?
I disagree.
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)social security numbers?
Threats against the sheriff? So what?
They'll choke on their beef jerky long before they've got balls enough to harm someone, or figure out what to 'do' with some stranger's ss numbers.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)potential of the situation is, by weighing in the abilities of the putzes in residence, their actions and behaviors to date, and the potential of what they can actually do.
Strip it all down, and I gotta say, it's pretty effing funny.
The building is little more than a public restroom and the offices of a wildlife and bird sanctuary used by humans a few months out of the year. It's hardly the Federal Building in Los Angeles.
These guys are a real joke. The best move any authorities could do is to pack up their observation stations and go home, and show the world that these guys are utterly inconsequencial.
Then serve them with a pay rent or quit notice.
meow2u3
(24,775 posts)Those armed insurrectionists are nothing but terrorists acting above the law. If you let them go back free men and/or treat them like heroes instead of criminals, you're telling them they don't have to obey the law and they can do anything they damn well please. Does this answer your question?
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)unrelated charges -- but he's in jail now.
Give them all the rope they need to hang themselves. They're being passive, causing no real harm, and the charges against them keep racking up in the hundreds.
Justice will come in one form or another. Putting them in jail for sitting in an empty office will only stir up the other right wing nuts.
Here's the thing, by acting passively and non-reactive to these putzes, it takes all the wind out of their sails. By not reacting at all, it shows what a total non-threat they are, and for the wussies they really are.
It's the whole not reacting to a child's temper tantrum and letting it play out until the kid wears himself out and throws himself on the ground, exhausted.
I like it.
dsc
(52,172 posts)so that their buildings can be used as command centers for monitoring these fools. The fact is I can live with not escalating but why on God's green earth are these people being permitted to come and go and now a caravan of armed people are being allowed to join them?
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)this week.
There isn't a law that prevents more people from joining them. Preventing these unemployed weekend cowboys from drinking with their buddies would only add fuel to the fire.
It's less risky than starting a shoot out and general insurrection by freaks that are armed to the teeth. They pose more risk being provoked than they do being left to hang themselves for now, so what's the rush?
Should ANY law enforcement officials lives be put at risk for this situation? I don't think so, not one bit, not at all.
They're looking for an excuse to start a shoot out. This isn't a situation worth dying for. They're more likely to shoot each other, given enough time. We can only hope!
dgibby
(9,474 posts)Just like their daddy.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)Half of them (at least) should already be in jail.
(And no, I'm not advocating an armed standoff.)
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Funny watching people flop all over themselves with lame excuses.
spanone
(135,919 posts)that's how it appears to me
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)If they weren't armed, they'd be in jail by now.
Unfortunately this will just embolden the gun humpers to use guns to get their way.
Chakab
(1,727 posts)get shot to death by law enforcement on a regular basis.
The way that this is being handled is fucking absurd.
The Bundys and their supporters should have been arrested and prosecuted for brandishing their weapons against BLM personnel when they went to retrieve the cattle that had been removed from government land by force.
The more the authorities refuse to crack down, the more emboldened these idiots will get, and it will actually reach the point where somebody in law enforcement gets killed or injured.
tblue37
(65,524 posts)policemen after leaving the ranch, as well as a man in a Walmart who tried to use his CC gun to stop the man, not realizing the woman was also a murderer. Fortunately those two shooters are dead, but any of these insurrectionists could decide to take things to another level if they think they can get away with it.
rusty quoin
(6,133 posts)They walk through black neighborhoods with assault rifles over their shoulders in Ohio. They walked into restaurants with their assault rifles on one shoulder and baby carriers on the other.
They had a black guy on their side and got away with it. I would like to see that black guy alone doing the same thing.
They are the real Americans as they say. Everyone else is scared of them.
uponit7771
(90,370 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)cheapdate
(3,811 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)But, don't camp in the same spot for over two weeks or you are in violation of the camping regulations.
[center]
Logical
(22,457 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)Because it is out in the middle of no where and if it wasn't for the media telling you they are there litteraly no one would know.
Why cause a confrontation with a bunch of idiots taking over a tiny building in the middle of BFE when the cold will likely run them out for you.
If someone gets shot out there it looks like a long trip to a hospital even in a helicopter.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)a week = forever
Logical
(22,457 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)I suspect winter will take care of it though.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Then, as the next step in pushing them to voluntarily end this, cut off electricity. But going in to make arrests still risks a firefight. If there's a way to end this without bloodshed, I think the ethical thing to do is still to wait them out.
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)what they're doing is having no effect on anyone or anything, and their little stand off isn't being appreciated by anyone but the lowest form of the gene pool.
They're idiots and they'll turn on each other like the rats they are. It will all be just fine.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)Their own roadblocks just like they did near the bundy ranch and are stoping anyone that tries to cross it.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)no one goes there anyway.
rpannier
(24,350 posts)The feds look like fools in the way this is being handled
The leave the power on, they let them come-and-go as they please
More crazies show up
This is the sort of crap that leads to bigger problems
For some reason, people seem to think that being mocked on social media is dispiriting them
I hate to break it to people who are that deluded, but it is not having any real negative affect; as can be gleaned from the 'patriots' that have shown up, and they're setting up their own road blocks
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)But I'm guessing there's a lot going but we just can't see it. I'm sure you understand the reasoning behind that.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)csziggy
(34,139 posts)Malheur is a great location for it - miles from anywhere, far from major roads so it should be easy to monitor their movements and isolate them. The locals are pissed of at being used as an excuse so there will be little support from the closest towns and ranches. And if and when a round up of these morons is attempted, if any of them try to sneak out there is little cover, it's a horrible time of year to try to live off the land so it would be simple to find them using FLIR from helicopters.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 10, 2016, 01:20 PM - Edit history (2)
anyone. Why don't we just surrender it and let the bunch of idiots there have their way?
~Heard around many a Northern (and Western) campfire and household hearth in 1861.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)I say let em. At least we will know where they are and can avoid them.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Ignore them and they will go away.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)This is not an isolated incident. The Far Right is taking over Federal Land bit by bit.
INdemo
(6,994 posts)WACO
branford
(4,462 posts)It appears these idiots have committed little more than criminal trespass of an empty government building in the middle of nowhere during winter. They neither harmed nor directly threatened anyone, and are not disrupting any essential government services. I would also note that it is my understanding that the open carrying of firearms is legal in the area.
Attempting massive raids against these armed individuals over property crimes, when no one is endangered and time is not of the essence, needlessly risks the lives of both the offenders and law enforcement and further could make martyrs out of fools during an election year. If law enforcement can end the "siege" peacefully by simply waiting them out and letting them freeze or starve, it's exactly the type of peaceful and effective procedures we have been demanding for some time.
Quixote1818
(29,013 posts)The Gov. is currently winning the PR game which really is the only game in town. Had the Gov. come in heavy handed it would have played right into the narrative they are trying to create.
branford
(4,462 posts)including the locals and even all of the Republican presidential candidates.
There is simply no reason to risk lives, give their cause more notoriety, make them martyrs, and create problems in an election year, when simply ignoring them and a little patience should easily be able to resolve the situation.
Nothing is really happening out there. The press will soon get bored, the yahoos will leave, and they then can be arrested for their various minor criminal misdemeanors, all safely at the convenience of local law enforcement.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Bundy or Ruby Ridge Ridge?
branford
(4,462 posts)the police should arrest the individual. However, a dislike of the militia, simple legal open carry of firearms, and criminal trespass of an empty building is not a direct threat to anyone.
Law enforcement must also endeavor to not overreact to minor provocations, or this will truly turn into the next Waco or Ruby Ridge. All that will accomplish is make these idiots martyrs and create political problems for Democrats in an election year, and that's assuming no militia member or police officer is killed or wounded in any encounter.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)and nothing ever happened to them. No charges.
Two from that gang went on to assassinate a couple cops who were eating lunch. They dropped one of their 'don't tread on me' flags and claimed they were starting the revolution. Those two muderous thugs are in jail.
beevul
(12,194 posts)Its kind of hard to make that claim stick, without looking through their scopes/sights. Pointed in that direction? Sure. But that's not quite the same thing as 'aimed at'. I suspect the reason that none of them have been charged, is because of that ambiguity, however, I could very well be wrong.
Actually, if memory serves, the miller couple are dead.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)beevul
(12,194 posts)It isn't quite as simple as you make it out to be. If we were talking about handguns and short distances, sure. When your talking distances of over 100 yards, theres a thousand ways to point a gun 'in that direction' without ever actually pointing it AT a federal agent.
And again, proving where the gun was aimed after the fact, just doesn't seem like a simple matter to prove in a court of law. I could be wrong, maybe the law provides wide enough coverage that it fits. I honestly don't know. I just know that 'in general', it would be a very difficult task to prove what exactly a rifle is or is not 'aimed at' unless you're the one looking through the scope/sights.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)at anyone. If you use a weapon as a threat you generally have committed a felony.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)i wouldn't waste one bullet on them
PADemD
(4,482 posts)Really? Why did the Sheriff's wife leave town with her four kids? Was it because her tires were slashed? How about the Sheriff's elderly parents who have been harassed?
AZCat
(8,339 posts)They've harmed the federal employees who worked at the refuge. They've harmed all of us because of the interruption of the work accomplished at the refuge, which benefits all of us no matter how much people like the Bundys claim otherwise.
Is none of that worth considering?
PADemD
(4,482 posts)My response was to Branford's assertion that the militia has not directly threatened anyone. They have threatened the Sheriff's family, wife and parents.
AZCat
(8,339 posts)I misunderstood.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)is paying for their electricity/power use?
Here's the thing, the Feds haven't established a perimeter, haven't cut off power.
No one is saying raid them. But wtf aren't they being completely isolated and cut off?
branford
(4,462 posts)The bloodlust is readily apparent in many of the threads concerning the "takeover." Apparently, to many, aggressive, violent policing is totally acceptable so long as the offenders have right-wing political views. I, however, am not a hypocrite and believe in smart policing which protects the safety of both officers and offenders whenever possible, regardless of whether the miscreants are Greenpeace, Black Lives Matter, KKK, or anyone else. If a situation can be peacefully resolved with a little patience, that is always the prudent, professional, and correct course of action.
If you believe law enforcement has simply been too lax in maintaining a safe and effective perimeter, that may indeed be correct. I've not followed the news closely enough or have the requisite tactical experience to make such a personal judgment. However, we may not know the true manpower or disposition of law enforcement forces in the area. Such information would not be made public, as the militia members are almost certainly watching the news just like us.
As I indicated earlier, the only crimes that have been committed thus far appear to be fairly minor property matters such as criminal trespass. Vagrancy, use of government electricity and computers, etc., are similarly minor offenses, some of which may even be civil rather than criminal prohibitions.
I'm pleased the cooler heads in law enforcement and political leadership seem to be prevailing. I hope the press also soon loses interest, as this will undoubtedly accelerate the resolution of this mess.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)There are other options. Why has power not been cut off? Why have the roads not been secured? Why have they been allowed to come and go at will?
Not aimed at you, but at those who Arrest them all!!! or meh, leave them be.
branford
(4,462 posts)Given the militia's lack of support locally and nationally, remote location, minor criminal violations, etc., non-confrontational monitoring and non-public law enforcement preparation, really is doing something, and doing it smart with little risk of bloodshed (or political blow-back and making these idiots martyrs) and high probability of resolution.
Moreover, a great number of people are indeed advocating very drastic, violent and dangerous actions, largely because of the right-wing beliefs of the militia. Sadly, these are many of the same people complaining about the militarization of law enforcement, stupid police polices where they shoot first, and ask questions later, failure of police to deescalate confrontations, etc.
Of course, the situation on the ground can change or worsen with little warning, law enforcement must be prepared to quickly adapt without overreacting, and opinions on how to then best deal with the situation may radically change.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)They could arrest the leaders of these idiots when they are in town which they frequently are. Instead, they let them come and go. That is what the OP appears to be questioning. Why not just arrest them when they're eating in the restaurant?
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)after all they get blamed no matter what happens.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)sedition, conspiracy, unlawful assembly, and so forth, were applied much more vigorously against the left than the right. Meetings of trade unionists, communist, Bolsheviks, etc. Were routinely harassed and arrested, while gatherings of rightists were left alone. It's the same here now. Mass media is another example. Any media figures who express liberal views quickly become unemployed and subject to threats.
History repeats itself.
rusty quoin
(6,133 posts)even though it is a huge movement, and this tiny group of armed white guys took over a fed building are treated with kid gloves.
I guess today you need to observe it all happening from Mars to be truely objective. At least that is the case for the media, but not us.
pacalo
(24,721 posts)bvf
(6,604 posts)Love it!
pacalo
(24,721 posts)You put it to perfect use here, btw.
JudyM
(29,294 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)Look at how many threads there are about it on DU alone.
JudyM
(29,294 posts)Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)I'm fascinated by this idiotic standoff, and I want to see them crawl out of there inhumiliation.
But I'm not finding much news on CNN, which I have on pretty much all the time when I'm inside.
JudyM
(29,294 posts)uppityperson
(115,681 posts)JudyM
(29,294 posts)uppityperson
(115,681 posts)Bettie
(16,139 posts)then I realized that these are people who get to do whatever they want.
They are older right wing white guys with guns. They get to do what they want, Bundy ranch proved that. They don't answer to anyone, the laws don't apply to them, the rules don't apply to them.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)wordpix
(18,652 posts)of thugs. If they were black, brown or Hispanic, they would be arrested by now. But since they're white with guns, ws have to treat them with kid gloves and sy pretty p!ease, leave. I do understand the need to protect law endorcement but why not go in with military equipment like they did in Ferguson where it should not have geen used? Here, ir should be.
demwing
(16,916 posts)Well, there's "Tarpman" and "Drunken Embezzlement" -- and those were just the opening acts. Seriously, you can't buy this kind of cow, you just have to milk it while its standing under the tarp, and make sure no one really gets hurt. In the meantime, get outta the way and let these derp-billies inadvertently craft an extremely effective (and free!) PSA proving why we need gun control.
This is the NRA guys. Tarpman and the Drunken Embezzler are the NRA.
Kablooie
(18,645 posts)I'd they didn't have guns they would all be in jail but no one dares interfere with them for fear of the wrath of the NRA.
Being an old white guy with a gun give you freedom to do nearly anything you want because the NRA wants it that way.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)rusty quoin
(6,133 posts)I knew about it back then. We are never to old to learn.
Cassiopeia
(2,603 posts)It seems so damn simple. Set up a perimeter at a safe distance. Cut power. Arrest anyone trying to go in or out.
We've spent BILLIONS developing "non lethal" weapons for crowd control since 9/11. This seems like a perfect test run. Rubber bullets, speaker systems, tasers etc etc etc.
I thought our policy was to NEVER negotiate with terrorists etc. These fuckers are able to stroll away and have a night on the town.
I get not calling in the B2's with smart bombs, but handshakes and freedom to do whatever seems insane. Fucking INSANE!
Bettie
(16,139 posts)that they aren't terrorists because their skin is white and they are male.
This, from my white male husband who is as disgusted by this as I am.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)Sam_Fields
(305 posts)As far as the trespassing the Feds may address that after they all go home arresting them one by one.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Federal 'good old boys' have never 'arrested' or 'charged' one of their own in the entire 40 years of their existence.
merrily
(45,251 posts)They don't want another Montana Freemen situation and they don't want to risk any casualties becoming martyrs and a recruiting tool. Freemen, Koresh--strong arm tactics by the feds in stand offs tend to have negative blow back. If any of that can be eliminated or minimized be a little patience before people start blasting Nancy Sinatra records at them, wait a minute and a half, sez I.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Kaleva
(36,384 posts)In the end, the conflict was resolved peacefully and no one was arrested even though the armed standoff lasted for months.
"The FFJ-occupied compound is on a hill which overlooks Keweenaw Bay, just above Highway 41 on the Lake Superior shoreline. As you drive up the hill into the compound, you come to the "Bottom Gate," mostly blocked off with logs and other defensive barriers. On the south side of the hill is the large three-story brick building which served as tribal headquarters. Burned-out vehicles lay in front of the building. On the north side of the hill is the Holy Name Catholic Church, other church buildings, an d an old one-room schoolhouse. FFJ members both occupy the tribal headquarters, and have sanctuary in the church buildings. At the top of the hill, along Mission Road, is the "Top Gate," also defended with logs and barbed wire barricades. Halfway up the hill is a huge silver church bell that would be rung to alert the community that an assault is underway or imminent. "
http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/news/thebayup.htm
Logical
(22,457 posts)pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)Vinca
(50,323 posts)Get as many in one spot as possible and then arrest them?
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)I think they'd view that as only making the situation more dangerous and unpredictable. That may work with warrant stings, but armed militias are a different matter.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)You see, they're NOT black, NOT liberals, NOT women, NOT Muslims, and armed. Ergo, it's okay.
Logical
(22,457 posts)L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)and not possible to encapsulate in a simple, reductionist view of the world where seven billion individual agents of action are interacting.
And then there is the other problem, the wealthy cowboy and corporate asshats with cell phones connected to law firms are in this to poke Obama and everyone in the fed management chain in the eye, sue them, embarrass them, get revenge on them, and generally get their political will imposed on everyone else, and they are working as a large group in concert while law enforcement has to identify individual actions to bring charges.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)prevented black students from entering just integrated scools in the 60s. There was a show of civil rights law enFORCEment that sent message to the bigots nd kkk. We need to do that here. Let these 2nd amendmenters contemplate in jail.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)It seems more like a coordinated campaign 2016 operation by the ultra-rightists in the Trump camp than anything related to Harney County or Oregon.
It is very revealing of who is who in the Republican world and who the real gun nuts are. Extremist elected public officials and Republican Party officials are involved.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Vogon_Glory
(9,136 posts)I didn't expect such Mollycoddling either. Certainly it's not the sort of treatment AA's and Mexican Americans (And Northern Paiutes!) would expect.
I would have expected roadblocks, caltrops, Denver boots attached to tires when the gun nuts ventured into town, a long-overdue Internet and power cut-off and other signs that Momma ain't happy.
stage left
(2,967 posts)at least? Would they have to confront the group to do that?
Logical
(22,457 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)"Would they have to confront the group to do that?"
Although I've been to the refuge HQ multiple times, I never noticed anything about the utilities (no reason to look...), there's a pretty good chance service could be cut well away from the property. There are no other structures very close to the property at all, and the power lines have to lead in from somewhere.
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)phones. That's pretty smart actually.
stage left
(2,967 posts)But I'm betting if they were not white, monitoring their communications would not be an issue. We know they're insurrectionists, correct? Anti-government "freedom fighters" who are, nevertheless, collecting benefits from the government they're going up against. What's the reason for letting them come and go at will? And letting others of their ilk join them?
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)Sure beats putting one SINGLE person's life at risk for this stupid bunch of pathetic wingnuts.
Of course their communications are being monitored.
And of course if they were brown skinned people things would probably be different, but that's all speculation.
The reality is that the waiting game is the best game to play. It makes them out for infantile fools. The best thing to do is laugh at them rather than to be so upset about it all.
The worst thing you can do to a bully is ignore them or laugh at them. Paying attention only adds fuel to the fire.
randys1
(16,286 posts)agree with you that the way the Feds are going about this is the right way.
Obama knows there are tens of millions of rabid racist assholes out there, most are armed, just looking for an excuse to start shooting the place up.
He knows that America is a rabidly racist society and if the Black man is seen putting some hurt on ANY white folks, the whole country could erupt.
Obama is one of the coolest, smartest dudes on this planet.
stage left
(2,967 posts)If they were black, they would be dead or in prison. I fear that these guys will not face any consequences for their actions. I hope I'm wrong.
stage left
(2,967 posts)with the waiting game if I believed that any of these people would ever serve jail time. Precedent says otherwise. Has old man Bundy paid any fines yet?
OregonBlue
(7,755 posts)spring. Of course in Spring, they will be far outnumbered by the birders and hikers, etc.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Yes: avoiding bloodshed. Apparently both local law enforcement and the FBI personnel on the scene believe that this situation can be resolved without anyone having to die. Allowing them to disperse back to their home states and subsequently arresting them back where they live also has the advantage of them not bring in a large, heavily-armed group when you do so.
I have no problem with waiting them out.
AZCat
(8,339 posts)Was anyone arrested after last year's incident at the Bundy ranch?
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)It's more than clear that letting people get away with what occurred at the Bundy ranch was a huge mistake. Apparently, Sheriff Ward was assured by the FBI that there would be arrests this time. How much stock to place in that assurance, I don't know.
AZCat
(8,339 posts)I'd just like to see some consequences eventually. I don't want the local gun thugs taking over the corner Quiky-Mart just because gas prices go up by a dime per gallon (Obama's fault, see?) with impunity.
Rex
(65,616 posts)That way I can ignore them in the future.
countryjake
(8,554 posts)The Pacific Patriot Network from Idaho, Washington and Oregon, heavily armed with assault rifles, arrived at the bird sanctuary today, Jan. 9, 2016, outside of Burns, Oregon. Photo by Mark Graves /Oregonian Staff
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/arrival_of_rifle-toting_patrio.html#incart_most-read_pacific-northwest-news_article
(surely that must be the lesson we're to learn)
Rex
(65,616 posts)and I too could be looting and plundering government property! That seems to be the message imo.
treestar
(82,383 posts)maybe they've scared the cops that they'd start shooting? Makes no sense. There is probable cause they committed a crime. If they go into town there is not even a standoff.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)Minority groups, occupy groups, and "niche" protesters lack the infrastructure to avoid police brutality; both at the local level and federally.
There is no media wing, presented in 20 flavors, like the RW radio network and Faux News; to recruit, radicalize, and deploy via innuendo the foot soldiers.
There are no Super PACs to fund, protect, and coordinate the actions foot soldiers to the political advantage of the donors.
How large would the RW backlash be if their were minority equivalents of Limbaugh, Hannity, Alex Jones, and Glenn Beck; people who have made hundreds of millions of dollars inciting the section of humanity which physically resembles them.
Minority advocates of equal treatment under the law and in our society are accused of incitement by publicly announcing the noticed a particular instance of inequality already.
It is all infrastructure.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)And now you have me wondering.
Just as the Tea Party didn't organically spring up on it's own and was manufactured
I wonder if these take-overs of Federal Lands (it's happening in other places in various ways) is being instigated somewheres inside the power/money structure.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)to a lesser extent Lumber and Factory Farming.
countryjake
(8,554 posts)http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/opinion/sunday/the-ideological-roots-of-the-oregon-standoff.html?_r=0
IT is tempting to dismiss the antigovernment gunmen who took control of an animal refuge in Oregon on Jan. 2 as fanatics working at the fringes of American politics. But if the methods used by the rancher Ammon Bundy to seize the federal property were radical, the ideological roots of the operation were somewhat more mainstream.
By storming the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and vowing to return it by force of arms, if necessary to the people of Harney County, Mr. Bundy and his men were echoing the teachings, if not the tactics, of the Wise Use movement: a conservative land-use doctrine that has been a part of the national discourse for nearly 30 years.
A successor to the Sagebrush Rebellion of the 1970s (itself a successor to the anti-national parks Boomers project of the early 1900s), Wise Use answers the question of who should own the West by granting moral primacy to natural resource companies and to logging and ranching families like the Bundys, some of which have worked the land since the pioneer expansion.
Though composed of many activists and scores of organizations, Wise Use found its voice in the late 1980s when a timber industry adviser named Ron Arnold published The Wise Use Agenda. The manifesto offered an expansive plan to gut environmental regulation, increase private ownership of public land and compel the federal government to open its holdings to mining, oil and logging companies and to the unrestricted use of off-road vehicles.
Mr. Arnold adopted the phrase wise use from Gifford Pinchot, the first head of the United States Forest Service (who said that conservation is the wise use of resources). In 1988 he held a conference, bringing together the likes of Exxon and the National Cattlemens Association, with the goal of seeding the West with grass-roots groups that could wrest control of federal land and give a local flavor to his Reaganite aims.
haele
(12,688 posts)I always wondered how it could be that the use of "wise" and other such positive words connoting some form of fair or considered thought process can make the word "profitable" acceptable to the general public who are otherwise being robbed blind by the wealthy and powerful.
Haele
countryjake
(8,554 posts)Conservation be damned, especially. So it makes sense if you look at the word thru their eyes, their ideology.
Hearing of things like the actions of the Bundys, both in Nevada and Oregon, and back when that "Wise Use" movement began with the mega-corps who were behind it, it never fails that I'm reminded of that old Indian saying, a Cree proverb, I think, because it's a favorite of Buffy Sainte-Marie's...
polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you cannot eat money.
beevul
(12,194 posts)This isn't hard. A credible threat of force has been established, in a nation with many millions who haven't forgotten Waco or the OKC bombing, during an already tense national political environment.
Stop and think for just a minute, about the attitude of the populace towards law enforcement. I'm not saying its undeserved. Its a fact that both the current national attitudes toward law enforcement, and the hard lessons of Waco, influence the actions of law enforcement from top to bottom, right now. I'm sure what happened at the ranch hasn't been forgotten either.
The decision makers are approaching this very cautiously, and I think, deliberatively.
Which is wise.
lpbk2713
(42,772 posts)Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027514907#post7
But they're just getting a "Good Ole Boy" pass.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)wallstreet firm, nothing would of happened?
Calista241
(5,586 posts)Thousands of people would not have been able to go to work. An armed OWS takeover of a building in downtown NYC would have been front page news across the entire world.
Whole streets would have to be shut down. Essentially, all work in NYC would have come to a screeching halt, and would have cost our economy billions each hour the takeover persisted.
Nobody cares about a building 100 miles from anywhere that's not even utilized 1/2 the year.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)...grammatical errors all the time. But I appreciate it when I'm corrected. It's just that using "of" in place of "have" is a grammatical pet peeve of mine.
Keep using it if you want to keep using it.
Logical
(22,457 posts)ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)Here's how I handled it:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7494850
Sorry you're so butt hurt by my pointing it out. Do you need a hug?
Logical
(22,457 posts)ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)...pressing together, and I gently apply pressure, a little pressure, not a lot, and tell you "Shhh...it's going to be ok, my friend." And you say "It's getting better already. Is that a section of water main in your pants or are you just glad to be hugging me?"
Hope I used my commas correctly. I used all I was alloted for this post.
Logical
(22,457 posts)To be a grammer/grammar nazi!
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)wordpix
(18,652 posts)Not at all the same. Occupy also had a ciherent message about corporate power and money in politics. These gun lovers are ranch welfare cheats and want to use and abuse our fed lands for free.
branford
(4,462 posts)Just because you (or I) like or agree with the message of occupy does not exempt them from the same laws as everyone else.
I live in Manhattan. As an attorney, I was frequently near Zuccotti Park because it's near the courts downtown and some of my clients. It was a filthy madhouse, prevented many thousands of people from using or enjoying the park, terribly disrupted both government services and commercial enterprises in some of the densest parts of downtown Manhattan's financial district, cost the the city and state untold sums in policing, sanitation and other costs, and there was ample evidence of regular criminal conduct, some serious, ranging from drug use, harassment, and numerous health and hygiene violations to sexual assault, all beside the obvious criminal trespass and blatant misuse of both public and private property. Even the general very liberal Manhattan residents wanted wanted the occupiers to leave. They were not well received by vast majority of people who actually lived and/or worked here. The NYC occupation occurred for longer than the current matter in Oregon, occupiers came and went even more freely than the militia, and the percentage of ultimate arrests, no less actual prosecutions, was minimal to effectively non-existent. The only aggravating factor in Oregon is that the militia is armed. However, despite the shock and dismay of people here, the open carry of weapons is not illegal in Oregon, particularly in heavily rural areas, and while certainly a logistical complication for potential law enforcement if they need to move on the militia, it's not nearly as big an actual legal problem as some want or believe.
The militiamen in Oregon are terrible people with worse ideas, but they are not stupid or politically ignorant. They know full well that because of responses to the national occupy movements and fears of repeats of government fiascoes like Waco and Ruby Ridge, particularly during a presidential election year, that law enforcement must be extremely cautions lest they make the militia martyrs, generate sympathy for their cause, and politically damage the current Democratic administration of the president and in Oregon.
The best thing right now is that there's simply no need to rush anything in Oregon. The militia have received no major political support, including from any of the Republican candidates who want them to leave peacefully, no one is directly threatened, the building was otherwise closed for the season, and everything is happening in the middle of nowhere during a cold winter. Waiting is a prudent law enforcement strategy that ensures the safety of officers, bystanders, and militia, all without providing the militia with the political victories that any government instigated raids or similar proactive actions would surely provide.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)[center]
Gawdless Pinko Lib
(75 posts)In fact, this situation has me pining for Janet Reno.
JEB
(4,748 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,204 posts)While local police have become more militarized, federal law enforcement took the public relations disasters of Ruby Ridge and Waco and made significant changes to prevent such bloodshed again.
moondust
(20,019 posts)RW extremism has grown dramatically since Obama took office. Some authorities may be wary of providing an excuse for a group of unstable, heavily armed Timothy McVeigh types to go berserk.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)because Washington is scared shitless of forcing their hands and causing another Waco (assuming these rednecked cowards are serious about going down shooting)...
So where does it end? They might as well start hitting banks now, since the bankers will hand the sacks over with no fuss, and cops will give them a police escort around town on the taxpayer's dime...
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)This is a terrorist attack, not a moving violation. The potential for violence and political fallout demands a strategic approach; doubly so since the perpetrators actually want the police to storm the reserve. It is far more sensible to keep tabs on them, wait them out, and then nail them when they're separated and weak.