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CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 05:31 PM Feb 2016

Through the Looking Glass: Bar at the Folies- Bergere by Manet. Your interpretations, please.

[IMG][/IMG]
A Bar at the Folies-Bergere. 1881.The Courtauld Gallery. London

“He is a painter, the true painter,who showed us how grand we are in our cravats and polished boots...”
--Charles Baudelaire on Eduoard Manet

“He was greater than we thought.”
--Edgar Degas, at the funeral of Edouard Manet

Her name is Suzon.

She is the mysterious young woman at the bar of the famous circus-nightclub where the trendy monied class could go for their amusement. Her gaze has been declared by several art historians as more enigmatic than the Mona Lisa’s. But her gaze to me is one of being very tired on her job and she would rather not be there...and perhaps a lot more...

There has been much speculation that she is a victim of a very unjust social system that entraps women of lower classes into forced sexual availability for the men she encounters in her job. There is certainly enough suggestion here to believe that narrative, but no narrative should deny her the dignity of what her social class “must” be... and the dignity of her as a young woman in deep thought...perhaps worried about a sick child, or how she can possibly pay the month’s rent or perhaps fending off a demanding boss.

The locket is another mystery and we start to question whether she has a lover, perhaps lost, and is keeping a wisp of his hair. It is set off by the delicate lace collar and corsage that frame her flushed face so beautifully. But its secret -- if there is one -- is not for us to know...

In contrast to her silent gaze, what goes on behind her is gala entertainment and this night’s extravaganza is a circus act. What we see are the legs and feet of a trapeze artist in the upper left of the canvas, who is poised to take off in her swing. The bar’s poster reveals more detail as to where we would be seated in this layout...
[IMG][/IMG]

Manet’s bar would be located where the words “prix unique” appear in the bottom foreground of the poster. And you can just barely make out the swinging trapezist in mid air a bit above and to the left of the man’s top hat...

Dominating the top of the painting is a large, beautiful chandelier that the artist has managed to make glitter...one can only imagine being in such a room...we are seeing the mirrored one and the actual one in part above the other woman’s head. This is a huge hall, a pleasure palace full of silk hatted men and beautifully attired women.

In the balcony crowd a woman has her opera glasses at the ready, there is a young waiter costumed in a tricorn hat carrying a large tray of food, while a brightly lit woman in white with elegant tan gloves appears to be watching the show. The young woman tending bar looks at us. Behind her is a mirror. Is she supposed to be the woman whose back is to us and facing the man in a top hat at the extreme right? Or is it another woman -- seen plumper and more animated -- working the other side of the marble table? He seems to be getting into her space and looks rather ominous as he grips his walking stick. Is he stalking her?

“A Bar at the Folies-Bergere” has driven art historians to distraction with speculation about what is going on in this painting and what, if anything, it means. We are led to believe that we are viewing the young female bartender in front of a mirrored image and we are the spectator. But this cannot be because she is not in that image and neither are we. So from the start we are bewildered.

We look for these clues when we see Manet’s oil painted sketch for this work and it looks like we are looking at a very different scene because the model he paints is not Suzon. With her unnaturally yellow hair and weariness she looks older and more disillusioned -- there is no complexity to her that Suzon’s countenance brings.

[IMG][/IMG]

Put these these complexities aside for a moment, though. Manet has provided us with little “moments” in this marvelous painting. He has signed and dated it on the label of a bottle of what could be Provencal Bordeaux (the guess of my local wine expert who was thrilled with the picture and based his guess on the shape of the bottle and the wine’s color), there on her right.
[IMG][/IMG]

On her left Manet has devised a little still life composition of two flowers in a wine glass, oranges in a footed glass bowl and multi-hued bottles of creme de menthes, champagne, Rose, and English Bass ale. While it is a richly delivered bit of social history, there remains a sadness at the tender effort she was perhaps making with her little arrangement...
[IMG][/IMG]

Manet has his own way of making us gasp at the vulnerable, evanescent beauty of flowers...as you can see here, in this depiction of slowly fading blossoms...
[IMG][/IMG]

Art historians regard Manet as a bringer of Modernism; if so, Suzon is Modernism’s Madonna with the sad eyes. Maybe we don’t see her mirrored because she is personified as the one who delivers the message to us. It makes you wonder how Magritte, that teller of the modern age early in the next century, would understand Suzon.

“A Bar at the Folies-Bergere” was Manet’s last painting. Suzon may indeed be us, gazing upon that society and what modernism has brought to it . Perhaps his signing the painting on the wine bottle label is his sad realization that his art --indeed, all art -- had become yet another commodity that trades under a label. (A look at just about any day’s Art Section of the New York Times will inform you of the latest news in this development).

Bring your own interpretation to this wonderful painting...it invites your wonderment and your thoughts...

You have to hand it to Manet: he really took it to his own era’s art community with his frankly bold nude, Olympia, the violent scene of Maximilian’s assassination, and a shocking depiction of a man who has just shot himself to death. He delivered some unwelcome messages to his art world about reality in presenting the day in which they and he lived.

Do you have a theory of “A Bar at the Folies-Bergere”?

93 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Through the Looking Glass: Bar at the Folies- Bergere by Manet. Your interpretations, please. (Original Post) CTyankee Feb 2016 OP
They didn't leave me a tip. Actually, I am being silly - this is a wonderful post. patricia92243 Feb 2016 #1
Thanks, glad you like it. Marvelous work, isn't it? CTyankee Feb 2016 #5
I don't think it's silly at all, it was my first thought before I looked a little closer Warpy Feb 2016 #15
Bookmarking to consider over the weekend. Thanks! pa28 Feb 2016 #2
She's the ultimate female bartender. Brickbat Feb 2016 #3
Thanks (I think) for teaching me RBF. arendt Feb 2016 #6
Oh no! I'm sorry it hurt. Brickbat Feb 2016 #40
I guess I'm just old arendt Feb 2016 #43
Although I had seen the painting, I had never given it much thought. arendt Feb 2016 #4
And, her timeless face...even tho her surroundings are grounded in one era... CTyankee Feb 2016 #7
Again, new thinking for me arendt Feb 2016 #8
it won't be wasted. Art reminds you of all that his wonderfully human about you... CTyankee Feb 2016 #9
How magnificent! hermetic Feb 2016 #10
always a pleasure, hermetic...and thanks... CTyankee Feb 2016 #12
It's lovely. longship Feb 2016 #11
It's a mystery, isn't it? I hadn't realized how many art historians had struggled to explain CTyankee Feb 2016 #13
Well, I raise my glass of wine to you. longship Feb 2016 #16
If it weren't for wine, I don't think I could have survived this shingles thing... CTyankee Feb 2016 #18
I would not want to miss it. nt longship Feb 2016 #22
Feminine lunar dominates masculine solar in the painting. PufPuf23 Feb 2016 #14
Yes. Interesting analysis. CTyankee Feb 2016 #17
Interesting. nt Hekate Feb 2016 #32
maybe its just a woman behind a bar having a few seconds wandering thoughts nt msongs Feb 2016 #19
that has occurred to lots of people looking at this. But others do want to impute other CTyankee Feb 2016 #20
Paintings like this allow the viewer to introduce Oneironaut Feb 2016 #37
I wonder if the model is Ellen Andree. demmiblue Feb 2016 #21
wow, could be...there is a resemblance in what you have shown me... CTyankee Feb 2016 #23
Who do you have to paint to get a drink around here? GreatCaesarsGhost Feb 2016 #24
Nobody...but hey, you get a nice lovely masterpiece and what else do you need? CTyankee Feb 2016 #25
Just an old joke. I enjoy all your essays. And I miss your Friday challenges. GreatCaesarsGhost Feb 2016 #75
Ah, my challenges rise from their grave.... CTyankee Feb 2016 #77
| underpants Feb 2016 #26
Nice rack underpants Feb 2016 #27
It's good that you keep abreast of issues in art! nt JustABozoOnThisBus Feb 2016 #42
Thanks bra! underpants Feb 2016 #46
I think it is her back in the mirror. brer cat Feb 2016 #28
It certainly is in the oil sketch Manet did. But the mystery remains: whose perspective CTyankee Feb 2016 #34
This is an interesting question Generic Other Feb 2016 #55
Bookmarking for later... awoke_in_2003 Feb 2016 #29
I did one on warhol a while back...but I am blanking on the name of the post... CTyankee Feb 2016 #35
found my warhol essay! Here's the link CTyankee Feb 2016 #38
Thanks awoke_in_2003 Feb 2016 #87
Another great essay edhopper Feb 2016 #30
thanks. I always value your opinion and input... CTyankee Feb 2016 #39
I always thought it was a tired thousand mile stare, but now I see we're looking over a man's should Hekate Feb 2016 #31
thank Google. all you have to do is look up the title of the painting with the words CTyankee Feb 2016 #36
So love these essays from you!! Just beautiful, enlightening 7wo7rees Feb 2016 #33
Nice bar. Beautiful girl. tabasco Feb 2016 #41
A wonderful and strange painting. edhopper Feb 2016 #44
that is the mystery that no one can figure out. I have read a LOT on this work and CTyankee Feb 2016 #45
Even though I knew better, my first thought on seeing the legs Lars39 Feb 2016 #53
I mus admit my first thought was that Suzon was pregnant...and didn't want to be... CTyankee Feb 2016 #56
I'm sorry, I'm not getting your reference. Are you meaning the trapeze artist's legs? CTyankee Feb 2016 #64
They also look like the legs Lars39 Feb 2016 #65
Oh, of course, now I get it... CTyankee Feb 2016 #66
I know! Lars39 Feb 2016 #67
just like me jumping on the idea that her look is concern over being pregnant... CTyankee Feb 2016 #68
Life was so hard back then, I'm sure there were lots of pressing things to worry about. Lars39 Feb 2016 #69
I think Manet edhopper Feb 2016 #54
yes, because his oil sketch is so different from what he ended up doing... CTyankee Feb 2016 #57
as it often does. edhopper Feb 2016 #58
for one thing, notice how in the earlier oil the woman has firmly crossed her hands CTyankee Feb 2016 #63
Since both are final works the painting makes me think of Prospero's words from Bluenorthwest Feb 2016 #47
I had the joy of studying this play in grad school with a fabulous professor and have loved CTyankee Feb 2016 #49
I came back to add that this is a fantastic post and to thank you for the efforts. Bluenorthwest Feb 2016 #48
I say this a lot but I love researching and composing these essays because I love art CTyankee Feb 2016 #50
It took me on a trip around the world and through time. Bluenorthwest Feb 2016 #51
another haunting work is the bust of Costanza by Bernini... CTyankee Feb 2016 #52
I have only one Manet print in my house (Lots of Monets though) 'The Dead Toreador' panader0 Feb 2016 #59
he seemed to like death poses...this one is stark... CTyankee Feb 2016 #62
Here is one interpretation from my ex prof Jeff Wall Monk06 Feb 2016 #60
fascinating photographic work. I maximized the picture to get a better reference... CTyankee Feb 2016 #61
Jeff did a Phd art history degree at Caurtauld and wrote an essay about the Manet Bergere Bar for Monk06 Feb 2016 #70
I had so wanted to go to the Courtauld and to the Tates which I missed on my trip to CTyankee Feb 2016 #71
PM me I have a friend who went to Goldsmiths and is also a former student of Jeffs Monk06 Feb 2016 #86
Always thought that it is her reflection on the right? And we are that man? In the reflection you'd bettyellen Feb 2016 #72
and that is our quandary. All of the "we don't know"s " in this painting... CTyankee Feb 2016 #73
I always thought it was interesting that the man doesn't see her disconnect. To me it is like bettyellen Feb 2016 #74
Boy, I wish, wow...a spring trip to Grand Central Station for lunch at the Oyster Bar! CTyankee Feb 2016 #76
Oh no. Shingles? Damn, I am so sorry! silly question..... bettyellen Feb 2016 #78
well, I have my meds but no shingles group. It should be better because I have reduced my CTyankee Feb 2016 #80
there maybe some helpful and new information to alleviate the symptoms or pain... bettyellen Feb 2016 #82
I don't have a smart phone as it is too expensive. call me thru PM with your phone number... CTyankee Feb 2016 #83
Initially, I perceived... TeeYiYi Feb 2016 #79
thanks for your analysis which I think is pretty much on mark... CTyankee Feb 2016 #81
My interpretation of this piece... TeeYiYi Feb 2016 #84
of course! Thank you for your very thoughtful response! It's wonderful... CTyankee Feb 2016 #91
It's fascinating how she's looking inward while everything else is bursting outward suffragette Feb 2016 #85
lucky you! CTyankee Feb 2016 #93
Oh wow awoke_in_2003 Feb 2016 #88
Maybe the image in the rear awoke_in_2003 Feb 2016 #89
Maybe my opinion awoke_in_2003 Feb 2016 #92
I see they served Bass Ale there melman Feb 2016 #90

Warpy

(111,332 posts)
15. I don't think it's silly at all, it was my first thought before I looked a little closer
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 06:18 PM
Feb 2016

The seats aren't filled, so it looks like she is just beginning her long night of pouring drinks and listening to paunchy merchants tell her how their wives don't understand them Her stays are tight and her feet already hurt and she wishes the night would get started so she'd be busy enough not to notice.

I keep focusing on the flowers in the wine glass. Are they an attempt to brighten up an otherwise sordid and boozy night? Or are they there to be sold as boutonieres for the men who forgot them? The glass is in an odd place, right where it will be knocked over and perhaps broken as the calls for alcohol become frequent. I'm leaning toward "up for sale," it was during the rise of the first batch of Robber Barons and everything and everyone was up for sale.

The frosted glass dish of satsumas was fairly typical, they were still a luxury item, but they'd have most likely been sold by people out in the crowd since real estate on the bar would have been restricted to alcohol.

This picture is compelling because she is all of us at one time or another, weary of the dailiness of it all.

The oil sketch is likely more true to life, the brassy blonde is well over the age when she'd have been attractive enough to sell her body for top dollar, so she's been relegated to barmaid. Bitter and cynical? You have no idea.

Brickbat

(19,339 posts)
3. She's the ultimate female bartender.
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 05:42 PM
Feb 2016

Her right eye betrays her sadness, and that makes her compassionate; her left eye shows her strength, which means don't fuck with her; her RBF shows that she's sick and tired of the come-ons, but that she knows she'll get them no matter what.

Brickbat

(19,339 posts)
40. Oh no! I'm sorry it hurt.
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 10:35 AM
Feb 2016

My friends and I all have it and use the phrase liberally. I think it's why men are always telling women to smile -- they can't stand to see a neutral or displeased face on a woman.

arendt

(5,078 posts)
43. I guess I'm just old
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 11:16 AM
Feb 2016

If women think it is an OK expression, then I will not be shocked or judgmental if I hear it in conversation. (I do still interact with 20-something folk. )

BTW - I agree that it's OK not to smile. People used to tell me to smile, and I learned to do so. But, I'm a guy, and I guess I looked angry and scowling.

Any way, culture marches on. Time and tide wait for no man. And all that...

arendt

(5,078 posts)
4. Although I had seen the painting, I had never given it much thought.
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 05:48 PM
Feb 2016

The "Modernism's Madonna" certainly seems to apply.

But, for me, the painting is a much more compelling take on the times than any old black and white photo. What stands out to me is how modern and how antiquated the scene is at the same time. Modern in the sense that we still have bars/nightclubs and their high-end clientelle. Antiquated, not just in costume, but in the lack of any modern tech. All you see are people, wood, glass, and flowers.

I have always loved the Impressionists, and their technique - some of the pointillist stuff is 50 years ahead of its time.

But, I have never thought deeply about what they were trying to say, as opposed to how they were saying it. Your little essay has certainly opened that door for me. Too bad I have no skills at that sort of thinking. Mrs. arendt is the artistic one. I will show this to her, and perhaps let you know her reaction.

It's nice to bail out of the political trench warfare into something beautiful. In our age of rush, rush, reading something the length of your essay was almost contemplative.

Thank you.

arendt

(5,078 posts)
8. Again, new thinking for me
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 06:00 PM
Feb 2016

While photographers will take timeless pictures of ordinary people (like the famous ?Dorothea Lange? picture of the Depression-era mother), painters rarely put so much effort into the portrait of an anonymous, interchangable, lower class person - even when that person's face is memorable. They were paid by the rich and tended to paint the rich.

Darn it, now I'm going to pull out all my coffee table books of impressionism and waste an hour.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
9. it won't be wasted. Art reminds you of all that his wonderfully human about you...
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 06:03 PM
Feb 2016

and, of course, saves you...

hermetic

(8,310 posts)
10. How magnificent!
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 06:09 PM
Feb 2016

Both the painting and your descriptions. His work on the glass and bottles just blows me away. I've never seen this one before although I took Art Appreciation in college and have been to many famous museums.

My first thought upon seeing it was that I used to bar-keep and am quite sure I've have that same facial expression more than once. I also know a good bit about the Folies-Bergere and it certainly wasn't fun for everyone.

Thank you for this lovely post.

longship

(40,416 posts)
11. It's lovely.
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 06:09 PM
Feb 2016

I at first saw it as a mirrored image showing her back, but that does not make any sense with the male figure at the right edge.

I like your narrative for it though. It is a beautiful painting.

Glad to see you back. Hope you are better.


CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
13. It's a mystery, isn't it? I hadn't realized how many art historians had struggled to explain
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 06:14 PM
Feb 2016

this painting and how actually complex it is...

I am off and on better so I await the day I no longer have shingles virus. It's now past 3 months and it's getting old...

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
18. If it weren't for wine, I don't think I could have survived this shingles thing...
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 06:28 PM
Feb 2016

so I raise a glass of wine to you as well...glad you could stop by!

PufPuf23

(8,822 posts)
14. Feminine lunar dominates masculine solar in the painting.
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 06:16 PM
Feb 2016

The woman is sad at what could be and that is her back in the mirror.

Rather than a bright chandelier, the light that predominates is that of the two globes resembling full moons and an indistinct gloom except where the artist wants to attract attention; all women, feminine, or lunar.

The bartenderess is looking sturdily at a man's world with a wistful and longing female gaze.

With her corset, costume, and makeup her form is a pleasure to man in a scene made for man.

She is the spectator of the scene.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
17. Yes. Interesting analysis.
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 06:25 PM
Feb 2016

that corseted figure fascinates me, too...it seems so uncomfortable, altho a younger woman would be less likely to squirm in it.

Manet caught that look in her eyes. He actually posed her in his studio after discovering her at the Bar. He included the rest of the scene behind her by sketches he made there...

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
20. that has occurred to lots of people looking at this. But others do want to impute other
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 06:39 PM
Feb 2016

interesting explanations as to her "sadness." She might just feel very tired...on her feet for a long time...

Oneironaut

(5,524 posts)
37. Paintings like this allow the viewer to introduce
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 09:30 AM
Feb 2016

their own insecurities and apply them to the relatable face in the painting. The truth is, everybody feels exploited, and everyone hates the lavish carelessness and snobbishness of the upper class. Not only is the face timeless - the idea is timeless. You could show this painting at any time in history, and people would still be able to relate to it.

What I'm saying is, she is you, me, the OP, and every human who has ever lived.

demmiblue

(36,879 posts)
21. I wonder if the model is Ellen Andree.
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 07:13 PM
Feb 2016
Andrée was born in 1857 in Paris. She started her work as a model and she has become notable because she appeared in a number of important impressionist paintings. She was an actress in the Naturalist style of theatre where the purpose was to give a near perfect view of real scenes and not to rely on the audience's imagination. She appeared in plays and comedies like those by Sacha Guitry and Georges Courteline and she worked for several decades as an actress but it was the brief period in the 1870s when she was a model for a number of artists but importantly Édouard Manet, Edgar Degas and Pierre-Auguste Renoir that made her name notable.[2] She also appeared in a painting of Rolla by Henri Gervex in 1878 that was based on a poem by Alfred de Musset.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_Andr%C3%A9e


Suzon does have a resemblance to the woman (Ellen Andree) in Edgar Degas' L'Absinthe.





Manet's Parisienne Study of Ellen Andree (much different, I must say):




Ellen Andree also performed pantomime at the Folies Bergère.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
23. wow, could be...there is a resemblance in what you have shown me...
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 08:02 PM
Feb 2016

Last edited Sat Feb 13, 2016, 09:05 AM - Edit history (1)

but Suzon is her real name and I believe she and Ellen are not the same woman...

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
77. Ah, my challenges rise from their grave....
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 08:33 PM
Feb 2016

it was fun, wasn't it? Too bad a DUer, still here, ruined it by cheating...it was just bad form and it made me feel sad...

brer cat

(24,596 posts)
28. I think it is her back in the mirror.
Fri Feb 12, 2016, 08:47 PM
Feb 2016

The way the light hits her face, her cheek appears to be lifted as it would if smiling. We see the sad/weary face and the (probably) forced smile at the gentleman at the same time. Such would be her lot in life.

It is one to enjoy studying and speculating. Thanks, CTyankee.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
34. It certainly is in the oil sketch Manet did. But the mystery remains: whose perspective
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 09:09 AM
Feb 2016

are we, the viewers, taking? Are we actually supposed to be seeing this from the man's perspective? Hmm...

Generic Other

(28,979 posts)
55. This is an interesting question
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 03:20 PM
Feb 2016

I now see what Manet has accomplished, how we are completely drawn into the scene! Very clever. We must provide the narrative as well. He merely painted the scene. We for the moment live it. Our perspective is what matters!

I have renewed respect for the complexity of this painting. Thanks for making me look so carefully at all the details.

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
29. Bookmarking for later...
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 12:03 AM
Feb 2016

did you ever do the Warhol post? I wish there was a way to bookmark members, because I really enjoy your art posts.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
35. I did one on warhol a while back...but I am blanking on the name of the post...
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 09:13 AM
Feb 2016

and, sad to say, I lost a whole bunch of my art essays due to having too long a document. I called my computer guy and we tried to recover the rest of the document but gave up finally. Now I create a new document every 4 or so essays so one document on my computer does not become too lengthy...live and learn.

If I remember the title of the post I'll look it up on DU and send you the link...

Hekate

(90,779 posts)
31. I always thought it was a tired thousand mile stare, but now I see we're looking over a man's should
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 01:44 AM
Feb 2016

....shoulder. My iPad mini is not good with detail, but you are, and when I zero in and blow up portions, then I see much more.

In any case, I've known this picture forever, and always thought she was staring into the distance, lost in her own thoughts, alone with nothing to do at that very moment. Now I see this man reflected in the mirror, and he is gazing into her face.

Where is she? I'm sure he doesn't know.

Her clothing -- well, it's a fancy place, and she's dressed up for it, with her brooch/locket on a ribbon, a gold bracelet, a corsage of fresh flowers tucked into her bosom. Her bosom is not on display -- that says to me that even if she has to put up with sexual harassment as part of her job, her job is to be a bartender.

Thank you as always for making me see art closely -- the still life on our right, the signed wine label on the left, all the rest. What a delight.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
36. thank Google. all you have to do is look up the title of the painting with the words
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 09:17 AM
Feb 2016

"detail of flowers and wine bottles" for instance and you will get what you want. I then copy it into the My Pictures folder for the essay so I can find it later using tinypic.com. when I want to post the essay.

7wo7rees

(5,128 posts)
33. So love these essays from you!! Just beautiful, enlightening
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 02:45 AM
Feb 2016

informative, the list just goes on!

Thank you.

edhopper

(33,610 posts)
44. A wonderful and strange painting.
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 11:49 AM
Feb 2016

Is it a reflection? It has to be, because we see the frame of the mirror at the bottom. But the girl's back should not be that far to the right, and doesn't align with the bottle reflections, and where is the man? We can only assume the man is our POV, and thus the man is the artists himself.(though not a self portrait) But she is not looking at us/Manet, she is staring of to her right. And the "point of interest" in that area is the women in white with tan gloves, What was going on in the barkeeps head might have been as much a mystery to Manet as it is for us.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
45. that is the mystery that no one can figure out. I have read a LOT on this work and
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 12:09 PM
Feb 2016

there are lots of speculative theories, as you might imagine and I have cited some of those here.

I, too, am fascinated with the woman in white and where she is looking. I thought she was just entranced with the show. the woman on the trapeze whose legs and feet are all we see (upper far left as we see it) but we do see the trapezist very faintly on the poster. It's a huge swing so this place must have been more circus than we get from the picture itself. So it might be that this woman is just amazed at the air acrobatics. The poster gives us a better perspective. I cannot tell you how long and hard I studied it.

and yes, I considered your suggestion that the man is the artist himself but it didn't seem correct and he is fixated on her and gripping a walking stick. I used a magnifier and Googled lots of details from this painting and I think the man looks dangerous...just a woman's perspective here...

Manet might have thought he would paint the reflection of the girl and the man in his oil sketch and then changed his thinking about the painting. Maybe he was deliberately trying to make it more "interesting" by making us wonder...

Lars39

(26,110 posts)
53. Even though I knew better, my first thought on seeing the legs
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 01:25 PM
Feb 2016

was that someone had killed themselves.
The eyes seem to be drawn upward from the lady in white, to the light, to the legs.
The legs seem to add a 'quiet desperation' to the scene.
Employment options scarce for women then...how long would she keep her position as she ages? Or falls even further down the path from respectability by becoming pregnant from some smooth talker?
If she marries a customer she could be in the audience like the woman in white.
If not, 'the legs' option?

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
64. I'm sorry, I'm not getting your reference. Are you meaning the trapeze artist's legs?
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 05:31 PM
Feb 2016

the rest of her body is out of view but it implies she's getting ready to swing across the hall as the poster references (very difficult to see, tho).

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
68. just like me jumping on the idea that her look is concern over being pregnant...
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 05:52 PM
Feb 2016

with no contraceptive options in that time, women were subject to lots of unwanted pregnancies.

edhopper

(33,610 posts)
54. I think Manet
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 02:00 PM
Feb 2016

made some artistic choices that he thought made the painting better, even though they were technically 'wrong'.

I wonder if he had a clear narrative, or was just going with what visually was interesting?

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
57. yes, because his oil sketch is so different from what he ended up doing...
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 04:35 PM
Feb 2016

incidently, my research says that he painted Suzon in his studio posed with a makeshift "bar." He went to the Folies-Bergere to sketch out the rest. Clearly, something happened on the way to creating this work of art...

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
63. for one thing, notice how in the earlier oil the woman has firmly crossed her hands
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 05:06 PM
Feb 2016

across her body. Suzon has opened her arms and leans slightly forward to rest her hands on the table. I think there must have been some change of thought as Manet went forward with it.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
47. Since both are final works the painting makes me think of Prospero's words from
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 12:46 PM
Feb 2016

The Tempest:

You do look, my son, in a moved sort,
As if you were dismayed. Be cheerful, sir.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits and
Are melted into air, into thin air.
And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp’d towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.”

That's what she's thinking, or what Manet is thinking.....an insubstantial pageant fading into dream....
The table is set. In The Tempest, this speech is given while festivities are being prepared. The Magician says good bye and vanishes. Leaves not a rack behind.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
49. I had the joy of studying this play in grad school with a fabulous professor and have loved
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 12:58 PM
Feb 2016

it (and Miranda) enormously. We also studied King Lear and what a magnificent play that is...

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
48. I came back to add that this is a fantastic post and to thank you for the efforts.
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 12:48 PM
Feb 2016

Bookmarked and valued.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
50. I say this a lot but I love researching and composing these essays because I love art
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 01:02 PM
Feb 2016

so much. But this one was a duzy to research...there's got to be a gazillion critical pieces to be found on the Internet. But it sure made for a fun winter project!

Thank you for your kind thoughts. I'm so glad you enjoyed it...

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
52. another haunting work is the bust of Costanza by Bernini...
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 01:12 PM
Feb 2016

I was entranced with that and went all the way to Los Angeles to see it on tour...Google it and the background story about her tragic involvement with the artist who was besotted by her...

panader0

(25,816 posts)
59. I have only one Manet print in my house (Lots of Monets though) 'The Dead Toreador'
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 04:40 PM
Feb 2016


Thanks again CT--I really enjoy your posts.

Monk06

(7,675 posts)
60. Here is one interpretation from my ex prof Jeff Wall
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 04:44 PM
Feb 2016

The studio is the SFU downtown studio where I studied with him for three years form 1983-1986

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picture_for_Women

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
61. fascinating photographic work. I maximized the picture to get a better reference...
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 04:58 PM
Feb 2016

obvioulsy Manet has inspired many other artists...

Monk06

(7,675 posts)
70. Jeff did a Phd art history degree at Caurtauld and wrote an essay about the Manet Bergere Bar for
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 06:08 PM
Feb 2016

our seniour class

He knows that painting very well

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
71. I had so wanted to go to the Courtauld and to the Tates which I missed on my trip to
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 06:17 PM
Feb 2016

London in 2013 because I spent an entire day in the National Gallery and ran out of time. I wanted to go back this past year for a short visit to those museums as air fares got slashed. But I couldn't find an art buddy to go with. Oh well...

Monk06

(7,675 posts)
86. PM me I have a friend who went to Goldsmiths and is also a former student of Jeffs
Sun Feb 14, 2016, 01:13 AM
Feb 2016

She could give you a tour if you can cover her expenses from Dublin

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
72. Always thought that it is her reflection on the right? And we are that man? In the reflection you'd
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 07:04 PM
Feb 2016

assume she was engaged with him, but her face -to me- shows one of those distracted moments where you forget to play the role you;re supposed to. Like she should look jovial and enthusiastic, but the bar for her is a different experience from the patron's. He mask has slipped.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
74. I always thought it was interesting that the man doesn't see her disconnect. To me it is like
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 08:28 PM
Feb 2016

her heart and mind are elsewhere, and he somehow can't see it.
Funny I never noticed the Bass ales before! Good stuff, and another great post. Let's do a museum show this Spring.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
76. Boy, I wish, wow...a spring trip to Grand Central Station for lunch at the Oyster Bar!
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 08:31 PM
Feb 2016

Now trying to overcome my shingles attack which doesn't want to go away and now my hands shaking like a leaf....we'll see and I'm the first one to say "I'm in!"

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
78. Oh no. Shingles? Damn, I am so sorry! silly question.....
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 08:37 PM
Feb 2016

have you done any searching for a good Yahoo shingles group? I know they sound archaic, but I have found some great cat health ideas and support that saved my kitty's life. And the VW group was able to immediately diagnose and solve chronic problems that boggled my mechanics- twice! It is a strange little corner of the net, but they seem to have active groups for everything.

Hoping for a speedy recovery- and a spring museum walk for us.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
80. well, I have my meds but no shingles group. It should be better because I have reduced my
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 08:47 PM
Feb 2016

pills from 4 to 2 per day due to tapering off. This may be a side effect. I am going to wait and see. I will talk to my neuro doc about the shaking hands... but this morning I felt shakier than usual...tonight I feel more like myself and no shaky hands...

We'll have to figure out a good recognition device to find each other but other than that, no problem! So nice to find a like minded museum buddy!

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
82. there maybe some helpful and new information to alleviate the symptoms or pain...
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 08:56 PM
Feb 2016

I hope it doesn't sound trite comparing it to my cat, but she had chronic bowel issues and I got a lot of helpful information- things that ultimately helped her symptoms more than the vet did.
I quickly became well versed in newest treatment options, foods and natural supplements, etc. I think it made my veterinarian work a little harder, knowing I was also on the case. Anyway, it seems to be a great place for crowd sourcing info. Google has them too, but usually Yahoo has bigger and more recently active groups.

Recognition device- smart phone? Or I can send you my phone number.
Feel better my friend!

TeeYiYi

(8,028 posts)
79. Initially, I perceived...
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 08:43 PM
Feb 2016

...a more foreboding, demimondaine scenario; particularly when contemplating the dark images and endless supply of potential customers as they seemed to (menacingly) appear in the mirror, in all of their dark intent and haberdashery:



Then, I looked further and reexamined the perspective and potential social mores of the time...

The conclusion that I came to was one of high society in a typical weekend opera or theater setting, during intermission.

The horseshoe balcony of the Folies Bergere is reflected in the mirror behind Suzon. Not only that, but the opposite side of the balcony also appears to have the same mirror or mirror(s) on its wall, showing reflections ad infinitum of the chandeliers and patrons; which serve to draw you into Manet's interpretation.

My first inclination was to assume that the people in the background were bellied up to the bar. As I considered it further, and from a perspective-first vantage point, I began to realize that the mirror behind Suzon reflected a mirror image of the U-shaped balcony at Folies Bergere, which was the local theater/opera in 1881 France.

Not to be confused with the Moulin Rouge, (a well know debaucherous nightclub,) Folies Bergere was the local opera hall. It consistently catered to a higher class of clientele than did the Moulin Rouge.

If you'll notice, the cleavage in both the final painting and the oil sketch, blur the lines between whether or not the women are displaying skin or fabric. I think Manet meant to confuse the interpretation but if you'll notice, the color of the bosom/bodice on both women is lighter and almost white with implied lace, in comparison to the skin color above the choker/necklace line.

And, yeah, she looks a little bored with her station in life as a worker in the service industry but wouldn't that attitude hold true no matter the century?

I think Manet was intentionally blurring the lines between high society and the demimonde of 1880s Paris.

As a side note, I see Manet's oil sketch as a tip of the hat to Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec, a well known artist and famous patron of the Moulin Rouge at that time.



Anyway, what a magnificent puzzle you have chosen to present to the hoi polloi of DU, such as myself...

Thank you, CTyankee, for another excellent and thought provoking art challenge.

TYY

PS--->> For the record, the curiously 'skewed' perspective of Manet's painting has (supposedly) been recreated to show the exact perspective as painted by Manet. Maybe the mirror was at a slight angle?...

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
81. thanks for your analysis which I think is pretty much on mark...
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 08:54 PM
Feb 2016

I have no idea about the angle of the mirror.

I've read so many pieces of art research for this painting it is amazing. Lots to report what critics think is going on. It's a litle crazy, tho.

Well, I thought everyone would get a charge out of this week's essay...it certainly is a big challenge to everyone to figure it all out...

TeeYiYi

(8,028 posts)
84. My interpretation of this piece...
Sat Feb 13, 2016, 09:10 PM
Feb 2016

...is my own and from nothing that I've read. I first opened your OP this morning, around 8 hours ago. It took me until now to pen a response, as opposed to typing a knee jerk reply as I was initially inclined to do.

Before today, I had never seen this painting by Manet. I hope you can appreciate the thought process that went into giving you an honest and unbiased appraisal of this work.

TYY

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
85. It's fascinating how she's looking inward while everything else is bursting outward
Sun Feb 14, 2016, 12:39 AM
Feb 2016

Really glad I was able to see this at the Courtauld.

Hope you are feeling better.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
93. lucky you!
Sun Feb 14, 2016, 05:28 PM
Feb 2016

thanks also for the nice words of support...this shingles thing keeps coming back, today it was in force. I was hoping it would be gone soon but I know now I have to call my neuro doc tomorrow...this ain't good...

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
88. Oh wow
Sun Feb 14, 2016, 02:23 AM
Feb 2016

I never saw that the image in the rear was not the mirror image of the lady in front. I love the Impressionist period, but I cannot totally put my finger on why. Maybe my eye sees it, but the brain hasn't caught up. I need to study more. Thank you.

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
89. Maybe the image in the rear
Sun Feb 14, 2016, 02:26 AM
Feb 2016

is the image of where the young beauty may be in 20 years. Or, maybe, beer is affecting my thinking and I am being a dumb ass.

On edit: I expand on my crazy thought in the next post.

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
92. Maybe my opinion
Sun Feb 14, 2016, 02:50 AM
Feb 2016

is a combination of two arts- visual and literary. In 1984, Winston is gazing on a grandmother pegging up diapers on a clothes line. She is coarse looking and thick. He talks about how the prole women have a fleeting moment of beauty, but because of childbirth and general hardness and coarseness of life, the outer beauty fades. But, even after the hard life the woman has lived, she is singing in the courtyard. Life hasn't crushed her. He declares her beautiful because of this.

On edit: a poor woman in the time frame of this painting might share a similar fate.

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