When we did nothing after Sandy Hook, we willingly walked through the Gates of Hell.

[Jerry442]

And now we are in it.

[katmondoo]

1. Best definition of these continuing tragedies

[Fresh_Start]

2. The outrageous support for the NRA and a gunz gunz gunz culture

is another facet of white privilege

[whathehell]

32. Say what?

What does.the NRA and "gunz gunz gunz" have to do with "white privilege"?

[avaistheone1]

39. Guns and white privilege?

That's a new one.

What about blacks and guns? mexicans and guns? and all the other races and ethnicities running around the US with guns. Is that part of their privilege too?

[whathehell]

61. Yeah...

I'd call it a 'reach' to put it mildly.

[Fresh_Start]

50. young black males can't walk safely with skittles in their pockets

or playing with toy guns

but whites can strut around latently threatening everyone ...cause 2nd amendment gives them the right
but women, children and minorities don't have the right to live without those latent threats

[Silver_Witch]

51. This^^^

[potone]

56. Very well put!

[whathehell]

60. No female of ANY color can walk the streets safely, especially at night

They're made victims of rape and murder by black, white and asian men every day.

[alcibiades_mystery]

3. Agreed...it was the signal to all that we truly don't give a fuck

[Dustlawyer]

5. It is clear evidence of the corruption of our supposed Representatives.

They are supposed to represent their constituents who overwhelmingly (90+%) wanted some reasonable restrictions to help prevent this type of assault.

Nothing will change until we attack the root problem of legalized bribery of our elected officials. We need Publicly Funded Elections! Then we can solve a whole host of problems, including this one.

[homegirl]

20. Amen!

So many Americans want Public Funding of Elections but there must be some reason, you think, why politicians don't lead the move for change. When I had the opportunity to publicly ask Nancy Pelosi and my Congressman what they were doing about it I got the usual smarmy politicians reply. "Yes, we want to change, yes, we have a committee, blah, blah, blah. These are the same people who complain about spending so many hours a week raising campaign funding. If they really wanted a change it would have been done a long time ago!

[treestar]

52. We truly as a nation accept these kinds of sacrifices

to the Second Amendment. We should build statutes of the victims, since they died for our freedoms.

They should be honored as much as the military dead.

[Logical]

4. And what would you do? Details. Nt

[Orrex]

13. Ban firearms that fire or can be made to fire more than one round per 5 seconds

Ban firearms that can be loaded with more than one round at a time.

Those would seem a good and reasonable start and entirely within the requirements of the 2nd amendment.


What would gun zealots do? Details. Up until now they sure as shit haven't done anything but obstruct.

[Logical]

16. Sorry, there is no dem or gop member in the house or senate that would vote....

For that. It is not possible.

[FailureToCommunicate]

26. That doesn't answer the question posed back at you: what would you do?

[Logical]

30. Figure out why we are so violent compared to canada for starters

[Kentonio]

27. It's only not possible because everyone starts out assuming its not possible!

How about people start a movement and tell their congress and senate representatives that if they don't vote for this, they'll be out on their asses next election? You know, the way democracy is actually supposed to work.

[ileus]

38. And when the majority say no to gun control what should the reps do?

[Kentonio]

40. If the majority say no to gun control, then there should sadly be no more gun control.

The question is though, do the majority really think that or are a lot of people just be blinkered by partisan nonsense?

[Orrex]

33. All right, but work with me here.

Assuming that Congress briefly decided to stop kissing the NRA's ass and managed to pass such bans, what would be the impact?

Let's also skip the usual nonsense about "criminals don't obey laws anyway," because if it were as simple as that we could get rid of all laws.

So the proposed bans go into effect. Would they reduce gun crime? Why or why not?

If not, what else might be done to reduce gun crime?

If yes, then what possible justification can there be for failing to pass such a ban?

[jmg257]

36. Would the bans include confiscation of existing weapons? nt

[Orrex]

41. In a sane country actually concerned about gun violence, I'd say yes.

And if existing weapons are brought into compliance with the ban, then there's no problem.

Of course, I'm posing this hypothetical in full awareness that a segment of our society values its guns more than any mere consideration of personal or public safety, so obviously I don't think this has any chance of passing. I'm not naive.

However, gun advocate have never--and I mean never--offered a reasonable solution to gun violence, and this fact seems all the more glaring in their "guns first" rhetoric following every single mass shooting.

So, since "responsible gun owners" are unwilling or unable to step up to the plate, then another portion of society may need to take the reins.

[jmg257]

43. Understood - I asked because it helps to answer your questions.

I feel only DRASTICALLY reducing the number (and/or type) of guns could we reduce the level of gun violence (more then normal ebb and flow).

A simple ban wouldn't do much, and even registration & ban like in NY won't do much ("now" - though may though attrition), because of the very low compliance rate.

[Orrex]

45. Thanks for clarifying.

The National Firearms Act apparently allows civilian ownership of fully automatic weapons build prior to 1986, as long as the owner has a Class 2 permit. With that in mind, it seems that there is some precedent for effective bans on the manufacture and ownership of firearms based on specific criteria.

Of course, even if my hypothetical bans went into effect, they almost certainly wouldn't be made retroactive, so we'd be left with a zillion large-capacity weapons still legally owned.

Maybe we could limit the purchase of bullets like we restrict the purchase of sudafed?

[jmg257]

48. Limiting bullets has been mentioned - not sure how popular that would be (either).

Or how constitutional...the whole 'means to a right' thing. Having a few current laws of the land means challenges to many proposed and passed legislation.


There are certainly other things that can be done to reduce gun crimes, just have to figure out how to do it...

Re:Chicago and their Subject List:

“We know we have a lot of violence in Chicago, but we also know there’s a small segment that’s driving this stuff,” Eddie Johnson, the police superintendent, said in a recent interview.
"In a city of 2.7 million people, about 1,400 are responsible for much of the violence"
Mr. Johnson said, and all of them are on what the department calls its Strategic Subject List.
So far this year, more than 70 percent of the people who have been shot in Chicago were on the list, according to the police, as were more than 80 percent of those arrested in connection with shootings."

In a broad drug and gang raid carried out last week amid a disturbing uptick this year in shootings and murders, the Police Department said 117 of the 140 people arrested were on the list.

“We are targeting the correct individuals,” Mr. Johnson said. “We just need our judicial partners and our state legislators to hold these people accountable.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/24/us/armed-with-data-chicago-police-try-to-predict-who-may-shoot-or-be-shot.html?_r=0

[Orrex]

53. That's an interesting approach

If that's workable on a national level, with effective targeting of high-risk offenders, then I'd be all for such a program.

[sarge43]

19. OK

Make gun ownership as difficult as

Getting an abortion

Registering to vote

Getting an appointment at the VA

Running TSA at an airport

Getting a basic background check security clearance

Qualifying for enlistment in the National Guard, ie militia

Yeah, it's sarcasm; no need to reply.

[LittleGirl]

22. That's not sarcasm

that's brilliant. Only make sure that once they complete the first one, they have to go through the hoops for each and every one of those steps.

[sarge43]

64. Thank you.

Hell, it's easier to get a gun than driver's license.

[prayin4rain]

37. Yes! Keep the guns in a neighborhood armoury and before one can be checked out

require a 48 hour waiting period, a 20 minute video, a doctor's lecture, a mental health evaluation, and a probing of some sort.

[Orrex]

42. Throw in a trans-vaginal ultrasound for good measure

Or its nearest equivalent, for our vagina-deficient gun aficionados.

[prayin4rain]

44. Seriosly though, often times suicide or accidental shootings

are the violence caused from people's decision to own guns. We must protect the health of gun nuts better and require a full mental health and physical evaluation, as well as safety training before purchase. We also need a buy back program in place for people to dispose of unwanted guns. Top dollar given and the gun destroyed.

[Orrex]

47. I like all of that. (nt)

[aggiesal]

57. "... a probing of some sort." ...

[Marengo]

67. Ah, so no guns for the disabled as they cant qualify for service in the Natiional Guard?

[wildeyed]

35. Require a certification process before owning a semi-automatic fire arm.

Like getting a driver's licesnse.

Put warnings on guns so people at least have the opportunity to be more educated about owning one. I don't care if people want to have one, but it is clear many do not understand the associated risks. Perhaps they would choose differently if they were informed.

Limit the amount of ammo you can buy in a month. Real terrorists will stockpile and find ways around the rule, but it might short circuit some of the impulsive mass shootings.

We made cars much safer by enacting legislation and god knows Americans LOVE their cars. We decreased drunk driving deaths dramatically too. Hardly anyone smokes cigarettes anymore. Guns have also become a public health hazard. We need to start doing SOMETHING. Trial and error. Look at what works in other countries and try that. We are never going to be a gun free society. It is not in our DNA. But we can do better.

[Logical]

46. good points but not sure it stops any mass shootings. Nt

[Orrex]

49. So what will stop mass shootings?

Looking for something more concrete than "figure out why we're so violent."

[Ineeda]

6. Words matter. We need to stop using adjectives like

unbelievable, inconceivable, unfathomable, unexpected, unreal, and even unspeakable. We must, for more than a week or two, speak of the physical and emotional horror and trauma of these tragedies. More important, though, is that we need to recognize that such an awful event is very real, totally believable, and in fact, horribly predictable. Generic or specific hate, dogma, and zealotry is the ostensible motivation. Yes, ISIS is a big part of this particular event, as is homophobia and mental illness, whether diagnosed or through societal observation. Assholes like Trump fan the flames. All of this should be points of discussion. But equal time, or really more time, should be concentrated on the primary, nucleus, core, and heart of the problem. Clearly culpable is the insane, unnecessary, barely managed private ownership of military-styled firearms.

[Lizzie Poppet]

9. More culpable than mindless homophobia driven by primitive fundamentalism? I disagree.

Strongly.

[Ineeda]

14. Agree or not, but

you can't stop homophobia or fundamentalism. You CAN do something about the tools they use for mass murder.

[Lizzie Poppet]

24. Fair point.

There are a lot of reasonable, potentially-effective steps just waiting to be taken. Things like universal background checks (which we managed to enact here in Oregon), greater access for the NICS background check database to various types of records (domestic abuse indictments, certain mental health diagnoses, etc), much more aggressive prosecution of straw purchasers, and a lot more. A lot of gun owners (myself included) support such steps.

[Jerry442]

17. The woman who was raped at Stanford showed the way.

Concrete details. Show people what it was actually like to live through the experience. Cut through all the abstract crap like "original intent" and make people see the harsh reality.

[Ineeda]

18. Yes. Thank you. n/t

[jtuck004]

7. We walked through the gates of hell when we created the US on top of the bones of tens of

millions of indigenous people, stealing their wealth, cannibalising their remains. We shut the door behind us when we built it on the backs of slaves.

We have been in it so long that the privileged have forgotten just how vile they really can be.

[FailureToCommunicate]

8. Some have called for the release of the photos of the unspeakable carnage at Sandy Hook as a

way to move public opinion from prayers and vigils and blaming mental health, to outrage deep enough to force real change...

the way Vietnam War coverage on TV or the coverage of the 9/11 terror attack seemed to do.

[Ineeda]

11. I've said this exact thing too.

Nothing like a lake of gore that used to be little children to make an impression. Unfortunately, it would only horrify those of us who are already horrified.
Anecdote: one of my neighbors, who is actually a city councilwoman, erected a massive sign on her front lawn the day after Sandy Hook. It was a depiction of an assault-type rifle with the words, "This house protected by the second amendment." The very next day! while people of conscience were in shock and grieving for those little babies.
(I'm in Florida.)

[heaven05]

10. +1000

[mountain grammy]

12. Yep! and don't forget.

at Sandy Hook, the killer's gun jammed. He could have easily killed 50, but the reaction from Congress would have been the same; prayers, in other words, nothing. But god or allah is in heaven and let's pray for peace because that's working so well.

[Botany]

15. And after Sandy Hook republicans across the country made it easier to get and carry guns

Bottom line It's the guns.

[Moostache]

21. This photo literally made me loose my appetite.

I am sitting down with a bagel before leaving for work and the bagel just went into the trash as my stomach turned seeing these faces again.

I am horrified at what we have collectively become. A gang of loutish, gun-humping vulgarians have over run the common decency of the American people all while another group of amoral conspiracy theorists have bought off the chickenshit congress critters and made change impossible.

Fuck this America. This version of our country is a boil on the ass of humanity and needs to be replaced with a better version. One that is not a moral embarrassment at the very least.

[nruthie]

25. You have summed it up perfectly.

I agree totally. I am actually glad that I am getting along in years and won't have to see much more of the side-show that this country has become. We aren't even civilized anymore. Donald Trump really does make a fine spokesman for a land of ignorant thugs.

[Botany]

28. My son is now 21 but those little kids being killed @ Xmas time hurt me more .....

.... then I can say. I felt the same hurt yesterday morning.
I have been deer hunting for years but after Sandy Hook I
couldn't even take my shotgun from its case let alone load it.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027907299 links to where we can help

[Paladin]

29. Well put. (nt)

[aikoaiko]

23. Except that none of the proposed laws produced by the Biden workgroup would have stopped this.

None.

Even the so called Assault Weapons Ban of 2013 would have allowed AR15s by merely changing their pistol grip to one where you could not wrap your thumb all the way around.

[Moostache]

59. What about the proposal to ban those on the no-fly list from buying guns?

There ARE common sense suggestions that have been proposed and blocked by the NRA, included among them are proposals like that, which COULD have saved 50 lives on Saturday night and countless more to come.

When you love your access to guns more than even the smallest compromises to keep them away from dangerous people - even if only by making it temporarily more difficult to get one - then you are a monster and the pictures of dead babies in school rooms of carnage or dead adults sprawled across dance floors, tables and bathroom floors should haunt your dreams.

But let's play further hypothetical games, shall we?
Let's stipulate that you are right, and that no laws or proposals would have stopped the killer or his rampage.

What if "merely changing their pistol grip to one where you could not wrap your thumb all the way around" resulted in a loss of targeting ability and aim? What if the rifle were less shooter friendly and caused just ONE victim to survive Saturday night instead of dying in the hail of gunfire? What if instead of 50 dead it were 49? or 40? or 30? What if?

Is a human life worth so little in your eyes?
Are you even aware of what an enormous piece of shit that would make you?
ONE life is worth thousands of times the inconveniences gun owners currently face.

[aikoaiko]

63. I'm ok with using the terrorist watch list if due process were added.

Which would include knowing when you are placed on it, the criteria for inclusion, a process for appealing, and accountability for the creation and maintenance of the list.

Yes, I've played the hypothetical game you suggest. Let me ask you, did you feel glad after the Sandy Hook shooting that perhaps one life was saved from not having a bayonet lug in compliance with the CT AWB? Or a flash suppressor?

In your example, what if the grip change was an improvement for that particular shooter (some people don't like the pistol grip on ARs) and it caused another death. Who would be the monster then? Would life be worth less to you?

I care about people and you care about people. We both agree that this massacre is horrible and shouldn't happen. Let's not question each other's humanity as we try to figure out a way to lessen the opportunity for it to happen again. Or go ahead, but I won't assume less of you.

[aggiesal]

62. So let's try nothing? ...

Oh, I'm sorry, that's exactly what we've done.

I'm getting sick and tired of hearing this excuse.

We could have enacted the AWB 2013 and improved on it.

[Blue_Tires]

31. It's kind of hard to do something when half of the RWers

still want to believe it was all Hollywood effects and CGI engineered by Obama...

[OnlinePoker]

34. Every time something like this happens, I think of this quote from Mark Twain

We build a fire in a powder magazine, then double the fire department to put it out. We inflame wild beasts with the smell of blood, and then innocently wonder at the wave of brutal appetite that sweeps the land as a consequence.

[treestar]

54. True, if nothing was to be done after that event

no other event could be worse to motivate.

[Protalker]

55. Another NRA event

The NRA has been run and supported by membership to negate any type of reform. I support hunting, right to have a hand gun or rifles. This is not about sportsmen. It is about power and hate.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

58. There were plenty of people who did something.

They went to gun shows and gun shops and lined up for their AR-15 rifles.

It was the absolute most disgusting mass behavior I've ever seen from my fellow citizens. It was utterly deplorable.

[MadDAsHell]

65. So what would you have banned after 9/11? The USS Cole bombing? OKC bombing? Boston Marathon?

[ecstatic]

66. You're right. If nothing was done after Sandy Hook,

nothing will be done now, despite 50+ dead. SMH. Disgusting.