Was the Brexit a vote for Progress (anti-neoliberalism) or Regression (anti immigrant sentiment)?

[NightWatcher]

I really don't know which it was.

Was it due to the fear and rejection of mostly Muslim immigrants and the "they're taking our jobs" or "they're all terrorists" sentiment?

Was it due to a rejection of austerity and other centralized neoliberalism policies?

Was it a little bit of both?




(If I'm way wrong on this I'll probably just self delete but I'm just trying to get a handle on this)

[sufrommich]

1. It was an anti immigration vote,the UK is about to take a sharp

turn to the right.

[FarPoint]

3. Sure looks that way to me....

[FreakinDJ]

26. UK's manufacturing sector has been crushed under EU

I don't for a minute believe this is can be neatly rolled into Anti-immigrant policies

[Spider Jerusalem]

30. The UK's manufacturing sector has been hollowed out since the '70's

and the reasons have very little to do with the EU. Any more than the decline of industry in Detroit and Pittsburgh and Gary and Akron has to do with the EU (a changing global economy and automation of labour are more responsible).

[FreakinDJ]

31. YES - when they joined the EU in 1973

and began their disastrous "Free Trade" policies

Just like here in the USA the recipe is the same - Export Skilled Manufacturing Jobs - Import Cheap Unskilled Service Workers

The Working class suffers as the fight over the scraps of a dying Working Class economy while the politicians hold up the Investor Class as the champions of the economy

[Spider Jerusalem]

32. The two things are not directly correlated.

[FreakinDJ]

34. Direct Correlation with experts linking the causation

A decade ago, Nifco UK was in deep trouble. It had lost control of costs in the highly competitive business to supply British-based car plants that sell across Europe.

Rivals in Germany and elsewhere threatened to devour the company’s market for handles, plastic pipes in car engines and seatbelt covers. Nifco UK badly needed a turnround plan.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377.html#ixzz4CV9cr6Ne

[Spider Jerusalem]

38. Learn to read

"A decade ago"? That's...c. 2006. UK manufacturing was already a shell of what it'd been, by then, largely because of Thatcher and the aforementioned automation and job losses. (And because the UK government didn't and doesn't have an industrial policy, unlike, say, Germany). The problems of UK manufacturing have more to do with the actions of successive British governments than they do with the EU. (France and Germany both manage to have stronger manufacturing sectors than the UK despite the EU, after all.) And further the article you linked in just about every particular makes the case that the UK has done much better in the EU than it would have out of it.

[TubbersUK]

40. Exactly

That's how it happened.

In fact we've had a fair bit of inward investment from EU funds - e.g. in our devastated coal communities.

[pampango]

2. Is Trump's nationalism a vote for progress or regression? There are many similarities which

is why he supports Brexit and, probably, why Sanders, Clinton and Obama opposed it.

[Metric System]

4. Leave was headed by far righters like Johnson and Farage. I think that tells you all.

[NightWatcher]

9. I'm listening to BBC World and the populist economic nationalism angle is mentioned

but the anti immigration nationalism isn't getting too much mention. I do hear some mention of the code words Nationalism and Sovereignty.

Hate veiled as economic progression is a nasty thing.

[Native]

24. Speaking of the scientific community - this article gives credence to your colleagues' concerns:

http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/24/12023230/brexit-impact-science-research-uk-eu-funding-collaboration

[craigmatic]

6. It was a sign that you don't let people vote on economic policy directly.

[randome]

10. Agreed.

[uponit7771]

16. +1, wtf was the PM thinking

[TubbersUK]

44. As I understand it

He was under pressure from the ever present Europhobic elements within/aligned with the Conservative party and thought if he called the referendum and won, it would put them back in their box for a few years.

He gambled and lost.

ETA: according to many commentators, he was emboldened to do so by his success with the Scottish independence referendum.

[uponit7771]

45. +1, It was a really stupid gamble, the UK isnt used to the tRump types so they gave them too much of

... and ear.

[TubbersUK]

48. It was stupid

Many think that he was emboldened by his success re the Scottish independence referendum - where he got the result he wanted and made the pressure go away.

[craigmatic]

60. The irony is that it was the conservatives in the 1970's that got the UK in the EU

in the first place. This was stupid and it hurt the UK and US's economy and he was right to resign. Cameron was a fool.

[beachbum bob]

7. really? Far right, anti-immigrant..mixed with pervert sense of nationalism and you don't know

what it is??? Its not going to work out well for England....

[RelativelyJones]

8. Right now it is an open field

It can go either way depending on who fights hardest for it.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/eu-referendum-working-class-revolt-grieve#comment-77106792

[baldguy]

11. Trump, Putin & the UKIP were for it. Do you really have to ask?

[uponit7771]

20. +1......This should be its own OP, would set the context of the Brexit...

[greatauntoftriplets]

12. Regression.

[dawg]

13. Regression.

The wealthy and powerful wanted out of the EU because they resented a powerful regulatory body telling them what their companies could and could not do.

Xenophobes wanted out of the EU because they wanted to be able to close their borders.

Now, England and Wales are likely to experience modest but permanent decreases in their living standards. Scotland and N. Ireland will probably just leave. What a waste.

[DanTex]

14. A bit of both, but more anti-immigration.

The big push for this came from the far-right parties, based on straight-up xenophobia. But it wouldn't have succeeded if not for the economic mismanagement and austerity.

[Vinca]

15. I don't know, but I wish we could have a national referendum on guns.

[sendero]

17. Like most votes of this sort...

.. it was not about one thing. Clearly, neoliberal economics has failed the working and middle classes and people are tired of waiting for these policies to trickle down.

The anti-immigration sentiment was also definitely a factor. Of course, most folks around here get the vapors at the idea that a country's citizens should decide who and how many are allowed to immigrate into their country, I happen to disagree.

[uponit7771]

21. Trump and Putin supported it, it might not be about one thing but those supporting sets the

... context about what it is mostly about and few of it is good.

[DetlefK]

18. The UK is a dream come true for neoliberals. As opposed to the rest of the EU.

The UK is a country of speculators, millionaires and stock-trading. Their whole economy is geared towards bending over for Big Money.

What do you think why all the greek and russian millionaires are coming to London???????????????????

The UK is an importer of goods, not a producer. And there are several industries in ailing rural areas that were propped up with EU-money.
Those very same people who can make a living thanks to the EU now voted for leaving the EU. And what happens to those people and those jobs when the british economy stumbles and the UK doesn't have the money to prop up unprofitable fisheries in the deepest hinterland?

[Denzil_DC]

19. It was many things to many people.

In terms of your chosen issues, I'd say it was a rebellion against the effects of homegrown UK neoliberalism and the fetish for austerity that stems from Thatcherism, with the EU and immigrants from any number of locations (most UK immigrants are Polish) as handy scapegoats for those effects.

Which means that nothing will change in a positive way as a result.

It's obviously up to you, but please don't self-delete, BTW.

[FLPanhandle]

22. As with most things in life, it's not an either/or

It's not simplistic. Good or Bad. Immigration and austerity.

Obviously, there is dissatisfaction with the EU not only in the UK but other countries too. Why?

Immigration is a symptom of a EU leadership not listening to their own citizens. Immigration is but one example of that over the years. The leadership decided they knew best what was right and if their citizens didn't agree, they took the attitude of "we know better than those unwashed masses".

In fact, the EU has taken that attitude on many topics. Eventually, if you ignore the wishes of the citizens of your country, then they will replace you.

Lesson learned for every democracy.

[Native]

23. And by a simple majority? That totally freaked me out...

To let 1/2 plus one determine the fate of an entire nation is totally disturbing to me.

[modem77]

28. We do it every 4 years

[Native]

36. Not exactly the same thing. 1 elected official doesn't control our entire economic fate.

[modem77]

41. I disagree. Someone like Trump would have very negative impact on our economic fate.

[Native]

46. Even the system that elects our President is not a simple majority....

we have the primaries and we have recounts. And by the way, their rules do not even allow for a recount.

[Reter]

49. It won by nearly 4 points

Well beyond the recount spread.

[Native]

56. I'm not following you. Can you please elaborate?

If you're taking about the Brexit vote, I've read that there is no provision for a national recount.

[Reter]

61. What I'm saying is that even if there was a provision for a national recount, it wouldn't happen

4 points isn't close enough for recounts.

[Native]

62. Gotcha

[whatthehey]

25. They polled this. A majority cited immigrants as top reason

Left-leaning reasons were WAY down the list. IIRC the top 3 were al jingoistic parochialism.

[NightWatcher]

27. Thanks. I guess the left leaning arguments were cover for racist jingoistic bs

I hadn't heard a breakdown yet, but bbc was trying to dodge the idea of "sovereignty" which is dog whistle racism and anti immigration sentiment.

[Native]

47. there is a breakdown in another of the Brexit posts here. Just can't remember which one.

[tabasco]

58. Simple minds come up with simple explanations

There were many reasons people voted to leave the EU. Claiming that it was all due to racism and anti-immigration is foolish.

[modem77]

29. Do you have a link to back that up? I doubt 51% of UK is racist. Just not buying it.

I think a lot of people here like to turn a complex problem into a simple one by just saying "they're racist". It usually shows a lack of knowledge on a complex issue.

[PaulaFarrell]

33. xenophobic not racist

They dislike foreigners of all colours

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. Here (52%):

Looking ahead to the Referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union on June 23rd, which, if any, issues do you think will be very important to you in helping you decide which way to vote?

Answers from those voting 'leave':

52%: The number of immigrants coming into Britain
22%: Britain's ability to make its own laws
18%: The impact on Britain's economy
14%: Impact on public services/housing
10%: The cost of EU immigration on Britain's welfare system
7%: Cost of EU membership fees
5%: The impact on British jobs
Others under 5%.

page 36: https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/pm-16-june-2016-tables.pdf

[TubbersUK]

42. Unfortunately

we have plenty of racists and a LOT of Little Englanders in some demographics.

[Ohioblue22]

43. Having a problem with immigrants doesn't necessarily

Mean racism

[whatthehey]

50. A)yes b)it's 52% c) I didn't say it was either simple or purely racist

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3746/Immigration-is-now-the-top-issue-for-voters-in-the-EU-referendum.aspx

So about that lack of knowledge on a complex issue?

[Stellar]

35. Not good...that's akin to Trump winning the Presidency.

As far as Van Jones is concerned anyway, he is 'freaking out'.

He said that the people there became complacent because the 'Polls' all said that they would remain in the EU (I guess the same way that all the 'polls' said that Obama would lose to Romney). He's making a cry for GOTV. Don't be put to sleep by all the ignorant things that Trump says or does. Please vote this November folks!

https://www.facebook.com/vanjones/videos/vb.30042869909/10154278077469910/?type=2&theater

[TubbersUK]

37. The latter - regression

I have absolutely no doubt, having witnessed it day after day for weeks

Where the symptoms of the Tory cuts and neglect (austerity as you call it) were cited , they were blamed on immigration.

[kcjohn1]

51. Immigration issue is not similar to one here

US its around undocumented workers and fear of Muslims.

Muslims are an issue but play lesser role. The main issue is around EU migrant workers who can come to UK in unlimited quantity. You have Poles, Romanians, etc who could all migrant to UK because wages are higher in UK and there is less unemployment there vs mainland Europe. Because of the EU free movement rules, the British have no mechanism to control the flow of EU foreigners.

[RandySF]

52. The campaign saw UKIP joined by members of the Labour AND Coservative parties.

[Agnosticsherbet]

53. For the right, Anti-immigrant bias and anti-government regulation played a larger role.

I saw more than a dozen interviews with different businessmen supporting Brexit because the Euro regulation stifled their ability to do business. A Trumpist opposition to immigration was clear in many of the poor and middle class who voted for it.

The left championed an opposition to austerity and neoliberalism.

BREXIT was a vote for both of those things. Considering that the two sides don't agree on anything, it will depend on who is in power. I suspect conservatives will be successful at keeping out immigrants and ending the tyranny of regulation that kept rampant capitalism at bay.

The left in Britain will find that they have been left out in the cold.

[Agnosticsherbet]

55. It was definitively a right wing, anti-immigrant, anti-government vote. See the link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/118754247

[Person 2713]

54. I labeled it a "hybrid "in the link below from the article I posted. UKIP check them out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016161640

[tabasco]

57. It's a combination, of course.

I see a very strong populist element in the exit supporters. Working people have not been the greatest beneficiaries of being a part of the EU. The ruling classes have been the greatest beneficiaries and lots of voters acknowledged that yesterday.

[BlueMTexpat]

59. Regression won out. eom