Rejectionist movements should terrify all liberal democracies (Mounk in Slate)

[Recursion]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/06/britons_radical_rejection_of_the_status_quo_should_terrify_all_liberal_democracies.html

As my recent research shows, British voters are far from alone in turning against the limits on the popular will that constitute an important element of liberal democracy. Across most countries in North America and Western Europe, voters have grown deeply dissatisfied with the political class. For a rapidly growing number, this dissatisfaction with particular leaders has started to transform into an actual rejection of democratic institutions. Across North America and Western Europe, the number of citizens who say that it is important to live in a democracy is shrinking. At the same time, the number of citizens who are open to making their countries more authoritarian is rising.

This trend is especially striking in the United States. Two decades ago, 1 in 16 Americans believed that Army rule would be a good way to run the country. Today, it is 1 in 6. The picture is even bleaker among the young and affluent: Support for military rule in this group has increased nearly sixfold, from 6 percent to 35 percent.

Obviously, Brexit won’t lead to military rule. Nor is the Pentagon about to assume power in America. Opinion polls need to be interpreted carefully and with a healthy dose of skepticism. But when they show such a stark shift in opinion, it is safe to conclude that something big is going on. That big thing, I fear, is that the citizens of liberal democracies have grown so disenchanted with the status quo that they are willing to put their faith in populist strongmen and radical political experiments.

Two decades ago, far-right populists were electorally insignificant in most of North America and Western Europe. Then, people such as Jörg Haider in Austria, Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, and Marine Le Pen in France celebrated a remarkable string of political successes, establishing their movements as a firm part of their political systems and making their countries less hospitable for immigrants and other minority groups. In countries such as the United States, France, or Sweden, they are now within striking distance of outright majorities. Thursday’s referendum proves that there is no magic firewall that is sure to stop them.

[bemildred]

1. This stunned disbelief from the indolent twitterati about the consequences of misrule in democratic

political societies is self-serving. There is no mystery, when the political classes do a shitty job, they get thrown out. The problem they are having is that they don't want to face up to the shitty job they have done of running things.

[Recursion]

2. It is a mystery though

People are richer at every quintile in both the US and UK than 20 years ago. They just believe the opposite.

[bemildred]

3. A mystery to you perhaps.That does not make it a mystery.

What they believe is what matters.

[GreatGazoo]

26. No the standard of living in the US peaked around 1968, in the UK 1971, and has been in

decline ever since. On average Americans now make 57% less than they did in 1970 -- no mystery.

[Recursion]

27. Nope.

Making up crap doesn't help your argument. Real incomes at every quintile are higher now than they've been at any point in US history except for a brief time in 2007.

[GreatGazoo]

30. You perhaps aren't interested in facts as you are the one "making up crap," sir.

Pew Research crap:



See any "rise" there ?

[Recursion]

33. Notice that agrees with me

Particularly if you go back past 2000.



There's the poorest three African American and white quintiles since 1965.

Going on that, would you rather have lived before 1994 or after it?

[tblue37]

40. Income is only one part of people's standard of living and quality of life. nt

[Recursion]

43. True; it's "just" the part that buys it... (nt)

[BlueMTexpat]

4. The problem with Brexit is that

this is not simply an internal political change, nor a governmental changeover. Those are indeed primary roles of a democratic society.

This is literally a sea change in how the UK will function, likely for generations, in a world that is fast becoming less a State-governed society than a transnational one.

The UK no longer has its huge Empire to rely on, nor will it any longer have its EU protections and bennies. It will be just a single rather small island and a small part of another (assuming that Scotland and NI stay within the UK, which is iffy right now) that will have to wend its way on its own when it has fewer resources for doing so. In union there is strength. The UK has literally squandered its strength.

If it makes me part of the "indolent twitterati" for stating the truth, then I am proud to be among them.

[bemildred]

5. Priceless. nt

[secondwind]

10. Well stated, BlueMTexpat.

[BlueMTexpat]

11. Unfortunately.

[AngryAmish]

16. Singapore is a small part of an island

They do ok. What matters is not physical infrastructure. A people matter, and the institutions that are created by said people. Britain is strong in both parts and will remain so.

[BlueMTexpat]

22. Singapore was originally part of

the British Empire and received its independence in 1965. It has benefited enormously from its position as an Asian "tiger economy" and as a strategic financial center for other Asian economies. Singapore is also one of the founding members of ASEAN, a political and economic organisation of ten Southeast Asian countries, which is effectively a southeast Asian version of the EU.

ASEAN was formed on August 8, 1967 by Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, Singapore, and Thailand. Since then, membership has expanded to include Brunei, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar (Burma), and Vietnam. Its aims include accelerating economic growth, social progress, and sociocultural evolution among its members, alongside protection of regional stability as well as providing a mechanism for member countries to resolve differences peacefully.

Singapore is hardly just a small part of an island. It recognized very early on that strength required unification with others. Exit from ASEAN would be unthinkable.

[AngryAmish]

28. Equating ASEAN to EU is so intellectually dishonest as to approach a lie

No Brexit supporter wants out of a common market.

But as a foreigner, me nor any one else has any fucking business telling the British what to do. They are a free people in an actual functioning democracy. If they want this, so be it. And seeing how our self appointed "betters" have reacted with hysteria and sneering contempt, the distrust normal people have for the elite appears to be well earned.

BTW, I am only in this deal for a united Ireland. Maybe Scotland will join us. Some have called it a Commonwealth of Craic. Sounds good to me.. The golf will be grand.

[BlueMTexpat]

31. Sheesh - did I "equate"

ASEAN? I said that it was "effectively" equal. In fact, Wiki supports that view because that is where I got the rest of the information.

Besides you have rebutted nothing of what I said. Nice deflection.

[Recursion]

25. They're also in ASEAN and joining the TPP (nt)

[Surya Gayatri]

18. So. Well. Said.

[Denzil_DC]

41. Well expressed. n/t

[ljm2002]

39. Precisely. n/t

[bemildred]

6. Behind the support for Brexit and Trump: Economic resentment

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The United Kingdom's stunning vote to leave the European Union was driven by much of the same sentiment that fueled Donald Trump's insurgent march toward the Republican presidential nod: A rejection of economic globalization and the elites who favor it by those who feel left behind.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_BRITAIN_EU_BREXIT_TRUMP_ECONOMIC_SIMILARITIES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2016-06-25-03-02-06

[puffy socks]

51. Its strange how people see

that when folks are unhappy they shouldnt riot in the streets but then do the equivalent at the polls and burn their own neighborhoods to the ground.

Normalcy bias makes people behave so irrationally.

[bemildred]

54. The only people that see that in the first place are people who like things as they are.

People who are being screwed by the current class system do not see that they should put up with it, and they never will without massive brainwashing. What is irrational is expecting that they would.

You second paragragh is full of irony.

[bemildred]

7. Brexit and the anti-elite revolt: What UK vote may mean for Clinton and Trump

t was Britain’s poorer and less-educated citizens — angry at not having shared in the economic benefits of a new world order — who pushed it out of the European Union, in a vote that threatens elites, analysts say.

They are those who suffered the worst hangover from the economic crisis, and whose precarious economic position makes them most fearful of rising immigration — to the benefit of far right groups in the EU and Donald Trump in the United States.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/brexit-and-the-anti-elite-revolt-what-uk-vote-may-mean-for-clinton-and-trump/

[bemildred]

8. What a Failure to Predict Brexit Means for the U.S.

The United Kingdom’s decision to leave the European Union has set off shockwaves across the globe—and rightfully so. Betting markets, pollsters, and pundits suggested the Brits would uphold the status quo. It didn’t take long before Americans started wondering what a failure to predict the Brexit could mean for the United States in a year where Donald Trump, the Republican Party’s presumptive presidential nominee, has outperformed expectations.

There are certainly parallels to be drawn. A similar demographic profile unites many of the people who voted for Britain to leave the EU and voters who have stood by Trump. “Brexit supporters mirror Trump voters,” Reuters reported, “in that they tend to be older, white, less affluent, and less likely to live in urban areas.” So should the referendum results serve as a warning to Americans not to underestimate the potential of a Trump presidency?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/brexit-donald-trump/488774/

[bemildred]

9. “As a political matter, you have to take working class viewpoints seriously.” nt

[Recursion]

12. Their views would make them poorer, so, no we don't (nt)

[bemildred]

13. I thought this was going to affect everybody? nt

[Recursion]

14. Who said that?

The British 1% are going to make a killing off this as they roll back the EU-mandated labor regulations.

The upper middle class should probably do fine too.

[bemildred]

15. The OP?

We should all be terrified?

[Recursion]

17. We should, because we don't want to erase the gains the working class has seen in the past 20 years

I'm scared of returning to the higher poverty and lower wages of the 1970s; I think it would be awful for society.

[bemildred]

19. Well, they seem to have thwarted your will to do them good. nt

[Recursion]

20. Yep. Not the first time, either (nt)

[bemildred]

21. Which brings us back to post #9. nt

[bemildred]

23. Tsipras blames Brexit on austerity, deficiencies in EU leadership

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, whose own rebellion against European Union policy brought the bloc to a crisis last year, said on Saturday he did not blame the British people for voting to leave but rather EU leaders.

Speaking to his leftist Syriza party's central committee, Tsipras blamed the Brexit outcome on the "chronic deficiencies" of European leaders and their insistence on austerity policies that fed populism and nationalism.

"As much as the decision of the British people saddens us, it is a decision to be respected. We must not put the blame on the British people ... when the borders remain open on austerity policies but stay closed for people," Tsipras said.

Tsipras led his Syriza party to victory in two elections and a referendum last year in an attempt to end years of austerity imposed on euro zone member Greece because of its untenable debt.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-greece-idUKKCN0ZB0FU?rpc=401

[Recursion]

24. What does the EU have to do with austerity?

Is Tsipras thinking of the ECB/Eurozone?

[FLPanhandle]

29. It's a lesson for all governments

If they don't listen to what their citizens want and act like "we know better than you unwashed masses", then the citizens will replace those governments.

No reason for liberal democracies to be terrified if they put the welfare and interests of their own citizens first and simply LISTEN!

It's not hard or scary.

[Recursion]

32. Yes it is hard: how do you make citizens feel listened to when their ideas will harm them?

That's exactly the problem here.

If you put NAFTA to a vote in the US we would leave it, and working Americans would get poorer. How do you square that circle?

[FLPanhandle]

35. Then your job to communicate and convince them.

You don't just say, "We are going to do it anyway and to hell with what you voters think".

A leader builds support before acting. It's leadership skills 101.

The EU leadership just arrogantly dictated, whether it be "you will take X number of immigrants, I don't care what you think", or "we are banning these appliances, I don't care how that impacts you", or dozens of other examples.

There is no reason for liberal democracies to be worried unless they act as if their citizens are "the stupid unwashed masses and we know whats best for them even if they don't".

It really isn't hard nor scary.

[bemildred]

36. Try listening. I find that often makes people feel listened to. nt

[Recursion]

37. I have listened, and people don't know WTF they're talking about

I could humor people, I suppose.

"Hmm... Oh yes... very interesting... Your job moved to China and you blame NAFTA? Fascinating.... I'll look into this, I promise."

[bemildred]

38. They need good jobs. Did you get that part? nt

[Recursion]

42. Then they need to leave the rust belt

I left the deep south the second I turned 18 because it had no jobs. (That's changed since.)

[bemildred]

44. Right, they are on their own, aren't they. nt

[Recursion]

45. We sure as hell were in the "golden" 1970s people seem to miss

As a southerner I would fight any attempt to roll back the economy to the 1970s kicking and screaming.

[bemildred]

46. Apparently, in Britain, you don't have to do that, instead you can vote

to eject the politicians that won't give you a decent job.

[Recursion]

47. Hey, if we could vote on adopting a Westminster-style government I'd vote yes in a heartbeat

However, we're stuck with the structures we have...

[bemildred]

48. I assure you it can be done here too. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

34. If you don't want your system to be rejected, best make sure that system does not revise

histories and steamroll peoples as part of its daily doings. If you keep insulting and slapping people, they eventually punch back. That's life.

[QC]

49. +1

[Oneironaut]

50. Who is dumb enough to think "Army rule" is a good idea?

If those statistics are true, it's frightening that anyone, let alone so many people would want the military running the government. That's insanity. I hope that the author is embellishing / inventing statistics.

[Odin2005]

52. 35% of well-off Millennials support a military dictatorship?

That's terrifying.

[lumberjack_jeff]

53. "Thursday’s referendum proves that there is no magic firewall that is sure to stop them."

Sure there is.

But it's not magic, and pointing it out is against the rules.

The cure for right wing populism is leftist populism, not centrist elitism.