HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Greenwald calls-out the d...

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:09 AM

 

Greenwald calls-out the dominant Brexit narrative

https://theintercept.com/2016/06/25/brexit-is-only-the-latest-proof-of-the-insularity-and-failure-of-western-establishment-institutions/

Brexit is Only the Latest Proof of the Insularity and Failure of Western Establishment Institutions

THE DECISION BY UK VOTERS to leave the EU is such a glaring repudiation of the wisdom and relevance of elite political and media institutions that – for once – their failures have become a prominent part of the storyline. Media reaction to the Brexit vote falls into two general categories: (1) earnest, candid attempts to understand what motivated voters to make this choice, even if that means indicting one’s own establishment circles, and (2) petulant, self-serving, simple-minded attacks on disobedient pro-leave voters for being primitive, xenophobic bigots (and stupid to boot), all to evade any reckoning with their own responsibility. Virtually every reaction that falls into the former category emphasizes the profound failures of western establishment factions; these institutions have spawned pervasive misery and inequality, only to spew condescending scorn at their victims when they object.

The Los Angeles Times‘ Vincent Bevins, in an outstanding and concise analysis, wrote that “both Brexit and Trumpism are the very, very wrong answers to legitimate questions that urban elites have refused to ask for thirty years”; in particular, “since the 1980s the elites in rich countries have overplayed their hand, taking all the gains for themselves and just covering their ears when anyone else talks, and now they are watching in horror as voters revolt.” The British journalist Tom Ewing, in a comprehensive Brexit explanation, said the same dynamic driving the UK vote prevails in Europe and North America as well: “the arrogance of neoliberal elites in constructing a politics designed to sideline and work around democracy while leaving democracy formally intact.”

In an interview with The New Statesman, the political philosopher Michael Sandel also said that the dynamics driving the pro-Brexit sentiment were now dominant throughout the west generally: “a large constituency of working-class voters feel that not only has the economy left them behind, but so has the culture, that the sources of their dignity, the dignity of labour, have been eroded and mocked by developments with globalisation, the rise of finance, the attention that is lavished by parties across the political spectrum on economic and financial elites, the technocratic emphasis of the established political parties.” After the market-venerating radicalism of Reagan and Thatcher, he said, “the centre left” – Blair and Clinton and various European parties – “managed to regain political office but failed to reimagine the mission and purpose of social democracy, which ­became empty and obsolete.”

(snip)

Corrupt elites always try to persuade people to continue to submit to their dominance in exchange for protection from forces that are even worse. That’s their game. But at some point, they themselves, and their prevailing order, become so destructive, so deceitful, so toxic, that their victims are willing to gamble that the alternatives will not be worse, or at least, they decide to embrace the satisfaction of spitting in the faces of those who have displayed nothing but contempt and condescension for them.


(boldface emphases added by me)

As I write this, two of the top five "Greatest Threads" here at DU are precisely the dominant Brexit narrative that Greenwald eviscerates above (with plenty more detail and evidence at the link). I think that DU can and should bring a more critical eye to the Brexit issue, and take the lessons of it to heart before the USA's politics goes similarly off the rails.

-app

237 replies, 25511 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 237 replies Author Time Post
Reply Greenwald calls-out the dominant Brexit narrative (Original post)
appal_jack Jun 2016 OP
Android3.14 Jun 2016 #1
840high Jun 2016 #81
tk2kewl Jun 2016 #199
NuclearDem Jun 2016 #2
appal_jack Jun 2016 #6
pkdu Jun 2016 #66
skepticscott Jun 2016 #146
KPN Jun 2016 #22
libdem4life Jun 2016 #61
840high Jun 2016 #82
xocet Jun 2016 #27
stopbush Jun 2016 #76
TheFarseer Jun 2016 #165
Drunken Irishman Jun 2016 #232
TheFarseer Jun 2016 #234
Drunken Irishman Jun 2016 #235
Number23 Jun 2016 #183
rpannier Jun 2016 #185
pampango Jun 2016 #196
nikto Jun 2016 #194
Cal Carpenter Jun 2016 #3
Mojorabbit Jun 2016 #10
bbgrunt Jun 2016 #24
ancianita Jun 2016 #25
arikara Jun 2016 #133
smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #216
SidDithers Jun 2016 #4
transatlantica Jun 2016 #111
ljm2002 Jun 2016 #138
rpannier Jun 2016 #184
wildbilln864 Jun 2016 #220
LWolf Jun 2016 #5
appal_jack Jun 2016 #88
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #7
appal_jack Jun 2016 #30
Jester Messiah Jun 2016 #71
appal_jack Jun 2016 #72
cprise Jun 2016 #142
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #31
KPN Jun 2016 #43
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #46
Human101948 Jun 2016 #53
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #59
Human101948 Jun 2016 #141
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #143
Human101948 Jun 2016 #144
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #145
Human101948 Jun 2016 #155
KPN Jun 2016 #207
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #208
Human101948 Jun 2016 #209
Post removed Jun 2016 #210
KPN Jun 2016 #214
KPN Jun 2016 #203
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #205
In_The_Wind Jun 2016 #213
pampango Jun 2016 #77
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #126
TomVilmer Jun 2016 #140
KPN Jun 2016 #202
KPN Jun 2016 #58
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #63
KPN Jun 2016 #201
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #204
KPN Jun 2016 #211
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #212
KPN Jun 2016 #215
AntiBank Jun 2016 #67
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #90
pampango Jun 2016 #75
cali Jun 2016 #8
MohRokTah Jun 2016 #9
Post removed Jun 2016 #70
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #113
MohRokTah Jun 2016 #114
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #116
MohRokTah Jun 2016 #117
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #119
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #118
LineLineLineLineLineReply .
MohRokTah Jun 2016 #120
ConservativeDemocrat Jun 2016 #148
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #170
ConservativeDemocrat Jun 2016 #221
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #222
ConservativeDemocrat Jun 2016 #223
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #237
still_one Jun 2016 #130
ljm2002 Jun 2016 #139
fbc Jun 2016 #11
Cryptoad Jun 2016 #16
Post removed Jun 2016 #20
stevenleser Jun 2016 #105
happyslug Jun 2016 #167
PaulaFarrell Jun 2016 #188
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #12
appal_jack Jun 2016 #18
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #26
JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #32
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #37
JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #40
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #41
JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #45
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #48
JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #49
marchellojones Jun 2016 #162
pampango Jun 2016 #74
JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #83
pampango Jun 2016 #89
appal_jack Jun 2016 #52
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #54
DCBob Jun 2016 #78
TwilightZone Jun 2016 #34
mythology Jun 2016 #64
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #152
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #150
happyslug Jun 2016 #168
muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #189
Scientific Jun 2016 #13
Cryptoad Jun 2016 #14
baldguy Jun 2016 #15
TwilightZone Jun 2016 #35
MohRokTah Jun 2016 #96
stevenleser Jun 2016 #17
JonLeibowitz Jun 2016 #33
stevenleser Jun 2016 #60
ismnotwasm Jun 2016 #19
PSPS Jun 2016 #21
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #23
Dworkin Jun 2016 #92
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #93
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #153
treestar Jun 2016 #28
bbgrunt Jun 2016 #29
bucolic_frolic Jun 2016 #36
DirkGently Jun 2016 #38
msanthrope Jun 2016 #39
Odin2005 Jun 2016 #44
msanthrope Jun 2016 #51
Odin2005 Jun 2016 #56
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #156
TwilightZone Jun 2016 #50
msanthrope Jun 2016 #57
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #97
joshcryer Jun 2016 #132
nashville_brook Jun 2016 #135
msanthrope Jun 2016 #149
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #159
TwilightZone Jun 2016 #157
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #160
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #154
Odin2005 Jun 2016 #42
nashville_brook Jun 2016 #136
YoungDemCA Jun 2016 #47
SunSeeker Jun 2016 #84
yurbud Jun 2016 #55
stevenleser Jun 2016 #62
Chakab Jun 2016 #106
Name removed Jun 2016 #107
truebrit71 Jun 2016 #122
SunSeeker Jun 2016 #87
yurbud Jun 2016 #98
SunSeeker Jun 2016 #100
yurbud Jun 2016 #101
TiberiusB Jun 2016 #121
yurbud Jun 2016 #128
LuvNewcastle Jun 2016 #164
smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #217
wysi Jun 2016 #137
Recursion Jun 2016 #190
truebrit71 Jun 2016 #123
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #108
AntiBank Jun 2016 #65
Jester Messiah Jun 2016 #68
840high Jun 2016 #85
Akamai Jun 2016 #69
pampango Jun 2016 #99
Akamai Jun 2016 #104
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #131
Akamai Jun 2016 #179
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #186
stevenleser Jun 2016 #151
Akamai Jun 2016 #181
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #182
stevenleser Jun 2016 #195
Adrahil Jun 2016 #73
reACTIONary Jun 2016 #169
DCBob Jun 2016 #79
struggle4progress Jun 2016 #80
840high Jun 2016 #86
Cosmocat Jun 2016 #91
Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2016 #94
Post removed Jun 2016 #95
stupidicus Jun 2016 #102
DirkGently Jun 2016 #103
Name removed Jun 2016 #109
nationalize the fed Jun 2016 #110
treestar Jun 2016 #112
DirkGently Jun 2016 #115
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #124
DirkGently Jun 2016 #125
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #127
DirkGently Jun 2016 #134
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #171
still_one Jun 2016 #129
uponit7771 Jun 2016 #161
still_one Jun 2016 #163
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #172
still_one Jun 2016 #174
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #175
still_one Jun 2016 #177
fleabiscuit Jun 2016 #147
nationalize the fed Jun 2016 #166
pnwmom Jun 2016 #180
Recursion Jun 2016 #191
pnwmom Jun 2016 #192
Recursion Jun 2016 #193
fleabiscuit Jun 2016 #219
Land Shark Jun 2016 #158
some guy Jun 2016 #173
PatrickforO Jun 2016 #176
still_one Jun 2016 #178
Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #187
rockfordfile Jun 2016 #197
Fast Walker 52 Jun 2016 #198
davidthegnome Jun 2016 #200
truebrit71 Jun 2016 #206
malaise Jun 2016 #218
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #226
malaise Jun 2016 #227
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #233
Albertoo Jun 2016 #229
TubbersUK Jun 2016 #231
Albertoo Jun 2016 #236
Albertoo Jun 2016 #224
appal_jack Jun 2016 #225
Albertoo Jun 2016 #228
Name removed Jun 2016 #230

Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:15 AM

1. "only to spew condescending scorn at their victims when they object"

 

There is an arrogance that runs with the oligarchy that is independent of party affiliation in the US, and is fueling the chaos in this election cycle.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #1)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:48 PM

81. Amen

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Android3.14 (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 07:15 AM

199. distract. "muddy the waters"

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:17 AM

2. Does Glenn Greenwald ever get tired of being wrong?

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #2)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:28 AM

6. Any evidence you might have regarding this particular issue is welcome. Nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:57 AM

66. Scotland!

explain using Greenwald worldview.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pkdu (Reply #66)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 06:28 PM

146. Or that the people voting to leave

 

were heavily older and more politically conservative.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #2)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:03 AM

22. Is he wrong?

That simple comment is an excellent example of what he so accurately described. An institution/government that does not benefit the majority of its constituency is not of value to that constituency. What is so hard to understand about that?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #22)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:45 AM

61. Not to worry...just a 3-word knee jerk that failed to pass the

 

cerebral cortex.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #22)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:49 PM

82. He's not wrong.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #2)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:09 AM

27. Do you have a specific objection to the article, and, if so, can you elaborate on your analysis? nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #2)


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #2)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 09:16 PM

165. What exactly is wrong in this article?

Brexit won. People here act like it lost 90-10% and is completely laughable. Most party elites just try to convince us 52% of brits are racist and can't afford to let on that there might be another explanation.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TheFarseer (Reply #165)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 08:58 AM

232. And I bet you believe tea party didn't form the second we elected a black president.

 

It's clear this was about immigration. Not all of it - but enough to make it pass. It passed because older conservatives voted. It's also why the more liberal areas of the UK, including Scotland and London, didn't vote for it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #232)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 12:29 PM

234. So you believe the tea party wouldn't have formed if Hillary had won in 2008?

I think it's almost certain it would have just because of the increasing polarization of party politics. I really don't get folks who believe 100% of evetything can be explained by racism.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TheFarseer (Reply #234)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 05:09 PM

235. lol Obama had been in office all of two months.

 

It was a reaction to a black man being in power.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #2)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 02:00 AM

183. Not when he has hordes that will eat up every embarassingly wrong utterance he makes with a spoon

and pay him hand over fist to be loud and wrong to boot.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #2)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 02:57 AM

185. Really? Lot of smart people on the leftwere arguing for Brexit before it happened

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/19/progressive-argument-for-leaving-eu-is-not-being-heard-referendum-brexit

Paul Mason a Remain supporter argues that it should happen, just not while Grove and Johnson are around to steer the ship

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory

On June 6, Richard Tuck, the Frank G. Thomson Professor of Government at Harvard, laid out a pretty cogent argument for leaving in his piece 'The Left Case for Brexit'

And Peter Mandler, in his piece. 'Britain's Problem is a London Problem' lays out how the Remain camp failed miserably to understand the dynamics at play

When I return from holiday in England (Jul 3 - 10) I'll get back to you and see what people there think/thought
You may be right and me wrong or vice-verse

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rpannier (Reply #185)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 05:25 AM

196. "But not now with Boris Johnson around to steer the ship" in the wake of Brexit. Mr. "Neoliberal

Fantasy Island" is set to govern. With liberal Scotland set to secede and join the EU, the rest of England and the UK will become even more conservative than it is now.

Unless a "lot of smart people on the left" were looking for a liberal independent, EU-member Scotland to emerge and for the UK run by the far-right, I doubt that this was the right time and method for Brexit. (A lot of 'not-so-smart' people on the right were hugely in favor of Brexit as this time and in this method.)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #2)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 04:19 AM

194. Typical response from a cipher

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:20 AM

3. I think the binary thinking is dangerous

You are right that the dominant narrative is strong here on DU, it is simplistic, and most criticism of that narrative is treated as siding with xenophobia, nationalism, RW mentality etc. I am happy to see that some are trying to look at this in a more nuanced way.

I may not agree with everything Greenwald is saying, but I'm glad he is saying it and it is being posted here. I also noticed some threads about Brexit in the Good Reads part of DU with articles by Yves Smith and others who are looking at this more clearly without partisan blinders.

I think here, in the US, especially during an election year, we get so caught up in binary thinking that we can't conceive of a third (or fourth, or fifth) angle on anything. It's a shame.

Thanks for posting this.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:36 AM

10. +1000 nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:04 AM

24. +100 this, and thanks to the OP too.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:05 AM

25. K & R Thanks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 04:47 PM

133. It's strong with who is still here on DU

The old crowd would not be so quick to agree with the dominant narrative of today.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #3)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:38 AM

216. +1000

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:20 AM

4. Greenwald. LOL...nt

Sid

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SidDithers (Reply #4)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:19 PM

111. LOL..nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SidDithers (Reply #4)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 05:27 PM

138. Wow, another substantive post...

...from Sid, who thinks we are pie-in-the-sky dreamers when we support single-payer health care here in the US -- from the comfort of his home in Canada -- where they, and he, already have it.

But he never fails to denigrate anyone who expresses liberal, but non-Third-Way opinions.

And especially Greenwald, who seems to have really gotten under the skin of a large contingent here at DU.

Well in this case, Sid, Greenwald is 100% correct. He isn't denying that xenophobia played its part; he is merely pointing out that it is a direct result of policies that benefit the elites and leave everyone else behind, creating fertile grounds for the demagogues to come in and whip up anger against "the other".

But that, apparently, is a little too complicated for some here to grasp. It is much easier to say that it's nothing but a bunch of stupid racists, with no real grievances.

And that, of course, is the formula for fomenting more rage. Since that attitude is largely shared by the elites who have set up our current structures, then more rage from the masses is sure to ensue. Hope y'all enjoy it. I, for one, am quite worried about how this will play out. I am very glad we have people like Greenwald to so eloquently express the TRUTH about these issues.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ljm2002 (Reply #138)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 02:48 AM

184. He (the person who responded to you) would have said in 1774

that it was pie-in-the-sky to revolt against the UK
It's always the same with him, 'Don't rock the boat. Don't make waves. Give it time - 1000 years - and it'll be better.'
I've given up responding to him

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rpannier (Reply #184)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 06:26 PM

220. precisely! thank you! n/t

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:26 AM

5. He's right.

Without reading responses to this thread, I'll predict that the knee-jerk response will be to attack Greenwald. He's not part of the establishment, so he's always a hated target when he calls out the establishment.

He's right. Neoliberals would like to focus on xenophobia and bigotry, which certainly exist, while they distract from their economic and political agendas that are the source of much of the problem.

And yes, I've seen DU embracing neoliberalism, submitting to that "protection," at a rapidly increasing pace in the last several days.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LWolf (Reply #5)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 01:07 PM

88. And your prediction is 100% correct. Thanks. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:33 AM

7. He's not only wrong, but very wrong

the "Leave" campaign was mostly about xenophobia, the leaders of that campaign were by and large "elites" cynically exploiting the resentments of the working classes to their own ends by blatantly lying about what would happen in the event of a "leave" vote ("£350 million a week for the NHS? Never said that!" "Well we won't actually see much reduction in immigration", "all those things we said? those weren't actually promises, that was just a series of possibilities".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #7)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:10 AM

30. It's worth asking why people embraced such hatefulness and believed such lies.

 

I recall a conversation I had with one of the Hanford nuclear waste site activists back in the early 1990's. He told me that as the cancers climbed and the local economy fell apart through the 1970's, and the full scope of pollution on the Hanford Reservation in Washington became known many hate groups and fringe activists attempted to leverage the issue to their own ends. The KKK recruited there on the basis that the nuclear waste was due to Jewish bankers, Stormfront types said in local meetings that the USA cared more about giving welfare to black urbanites than helping rural white people, LaRouch-ites said whatever nonsense they always do, the Revolutionary Communist Party said that capitalism depended upon poisoning the working class, etc. All of them saw the crisis of nuclear waste ruining a whole community not as something that needed to be solved, but as an opportunity to spread their preferred narrative. My activist friend was smart enough to ignore these campaigns, and stuck to pressuring the US Department of Defense to clean up its mess (an issue not yet resolved today, from my understanding). But some of his neighbors embraced the Klan or other hatemongers. Desperate people will take desperate measures.

I see the failure of modern western neoliberal entities as a similar moment, but on a global scale. If we don't fix the underlying issues, the racists and xenophobes will definitely make hay of it. But their hateful opportunism does not excuse modern western neoliberal institutions for their oligarchic and anti-democratic practices that cause the underlying problems.

-app

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Reply #30)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:07 PM

71. And to that point, xenophobes are still going to vote.

 

No one is going to lose their right to vote due to being called out as a xenophobe. So they're xenophobic, so what? If they shrug and own it, what then? Wouldn't it be preferable to engage and try to change their minds via dialog rather than just spew useless vitriol?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jester Messiah (Reply #71)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:12 PM

72. Yes, that would be useful. Nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jester Messiah (Reply #71)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 06:05 PM

142. People become more xenophobic when steeped in economic insecurity.

Economic inequality is having repercussions, creating instability. Its astounding that people on DU can't admit that. Learn some history!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #7)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:10 AM

31. +1

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #7)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:24 AM

43. But do you really think 52 % of all British voters are

xenophobes? That view strikes me as overly simplistic ... and shallow. Plumbing the depths of Brexit (and the general rise of populism on-going in the western world today) it's not too hard to recognize that distrust, resentment and exasperation of the establishment (it is so nice to see that term return to the relevance and notoriety it held inthe 70s-early 70s) run much deeper and broader than xenophobia.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #43)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:25 AM

46. No, but I think that enough of the "Leave" vote came from xenophobes to represent the winning margin

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #46)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:32 AM

53. Using your reasoning it could very well be that the majority of Brexit voters were not xenophobic...

 

Just tired of being screwed by the one percenters.

The parallel here in the USA is that some people support Trump because they know the powers that be are screwing them royally. Many supported Bernie because they know they are getting screwed royally. Some are xenophobic and racist, many are not. But, truth is, they are getting screwed royally.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Human101948 (Reply #53)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:39 AM

59. Please stop with the "screwed by one percenters" nonsense.

That has NOTHING to do with it at all. Anyone who says "blah blah one percent blah blah austerity blah blah Greece" should shut up and go away because they have NO IDEA AT ALL what they're talking about re the "Brexit" referendum.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #59)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 06:03 PM

141. What are your qualifications as a pontificator on this subject?

 

You seem to be very sure of yourself, there must be an advanced degree involved.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Human101948 (Reply #141)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 06:06 PM

143. My qualifications?

That would be that I live in the UK and have seen this whole referendum campaign up close. I've seen the "Leave" campaigners on television, I've gotten their flyers through the door, I've seen their supporters, I've heard their arguments. I know much more about it than any ignorant American who just went scrambling for something that conforms with their pre-existing political prejudices.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #143)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 06:09 PM

144. Leaflets under the door..unimpeachable anecdotal experience...

 

I bow to your superiority almighty Brit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Human101948 (Reply #144)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 06:11 PM

145. Actually having a firsthand acquaintance with the "Leave" campaign...

clearly makes me more qualified to speak to it than you who have no clue, I'd say.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #145)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 07:55 PM

155. Others, more credentialed than yourself, agree with me...

 

What has certainly happened is that decades of globalization, deregulation, and policy changes that favored the wealthy have left Britain a more unequal place, with vast regional disparities. “It’s the shape of our long lasting and deeply entrenched national geographic inequality that drove differences in voting patterns,” Torsten Bell, the director of the Resolution Foundation, a bipartisan think tank, commented on Friday morning. “The legacy of increased national inequality in the 1980s, the heavy concentration of those costs in certain areas, and our collective failure to address it has more to say about what happened last night than shorter term considerations from the financial crisis or changed migration flows.”

That argument sounds persuasive to me. On Thursday night, it was the early announcement of a huge Leave vote in Sunderland, a depressed city in the Northeast that used to be a big shipbuilding center, that indicated the way the night was headed and caused the pound sterling to plummet in the Asian markets. Meanwhile, the Remain vote was consistently stronger in prosperous areas. Economics matters.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/why-the-remain-campaign-lost-the-brexit-vote?mbid=nl_160625_Daily&CNDID=27694289&spMailingID=9111072&spUserID=MTE0MTYzMzk5ODg3S0&spJobID=942410256&spReportId=OTQyNDEwMjU2S0

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #145)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:05 AM

207. Here's what your argument without deeper explanation says:

if the xenophobes who voted in favor of Brexit hadn't voted, the Remain supporters would have WON ... and the hell with the 45% (or whatever that specific number is) of voters who voted for Brexit because they lost faith in the institutions that affect their livelihood, and that have served the 1% -- the elites -- but not them.

Brexit is not the fault of xenophobes, but the fault of elites responsible for economic policies that dislocated the millions of people who voted for Brexit. They got it wrong and ignored all of the warning signs that have been flashing for two decades now. Brexit is the result of mass discontent with "leaders".

The establishment ignores the masses at its own risk here in the US as well ... and, yes, xenophobes make up a share of the millions who are discontent -- but they are small part of the pie -- as they were in the UK.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #207)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:09 AM

208. Okay, I see, you're a crank.

And also sadly ignorant. Do you know who was leading the campaign? Boris fucking Johnson. Old Etonian, Oxbridge, as "establishment" as you can get. Along with people like Nigel Farage (privately educated former City commodities broker). The "Leave" campaign was largely led by members of the "establishment". With the goal of making the UK more "neoliberal" than is allowed under EU regulations relating to human rights and worker protection and the environment. Painting this as some victory against "the establishment" is shockingly stupid.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #208)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:16 AM

209. Were you intending to call yourself a "crank?"

 

Because you just answered your own post.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Human101948 (Reply #209)


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #208)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:32 AM

214. You are making all kinds of assumptions about what people here are saying.

I'm not defending the correctness of Brexit. This whole discussion is a result of you saying it's all about xenophobes and fear-mongering. All I'm saying is the Brexit vote is far mnore complicated than that -- and to disregard that is, using your word, stupid.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #59)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:49 AM

203. Really? So what is the basis for the vast populism today?

Are all those people irrational? Do you have anything more meaningful to say than "blah, blah, blah", "shut up and go away"?

Absent substantive argument, your post seems childish at best.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to KPN (Reply #203)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:31 AM

213. just, wow

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Human101948 (Reply #53)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:40 PM

77. "Just tired of being screwed by the one percenters." EU countries have some of the highest pay,

strongest unions and most equitable incomes in the world.

If Brits are tired of that they are in for a rude awakening. Instead of the EU they will turn things over to the Conservative Party and their next prime minister, Boris Johnson who, in his own words, wants to turn the UK into a "hyper-capitalist island freed from EU regulation", a "neoliberal fantasy island".

There is a reason that British unions, Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders all supported the UK remaining in the EU - and it wasn't because they support neo-liberalism.

Responding to the unhappiness of your face by cutting of your nose is not an effective tactic.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #77)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 04:22 PM

126. Spot on n/t



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #77)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 05:54 PM

140. Quotations?

Boris Johnson who, in his own words, wants to turn the UK into a "hyper-capitalist island freed from EU regulation", a "neoliberal fantasy island".

Nice quotes, but Google is no help - where did you pick them?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Human101948 (Reply #53)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:44 AM

202. Not could well be ... EXACTLY!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #46)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:38 AM

58. So what do you know about xenophobia

other than it's irrational on its face. Why do people act irrationally? Or put another way, is it likely that lack of education and economic well-being play a role in xenophobia?

If so, doing something to help alleviate those growing conditions might affect levels of xenophobia. Or, neoliberal could just find ways to get xenophobes to vote according to their views.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #58)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:48 AM

63. Xenophobia and anti-immigrant sentiment is highest in areas with the lowest levels of immigration

poll after poll has shown this. It has nothing to do with "conditions". It has to do with racist fearmongering and overt lies on the front pages of right-wing newspapers.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #63)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:42 AM

201. OK, so you are a neoliberal.

I get it. Short sighted basically.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #201)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:53 AM

204. LOL.

Anytime someone says "blah blah neoliberal" in reference to what happened with the UK's "Brexit" vote I know I can safely disregard their opinions. The "Leave" campaign has been a right-wing "let's close the door to immigration and scrap the European Court of Human Rights" thing from the beginning.


The Leave campaign’s stunning upset has barely sunk in and already the pundits are flogging a familiar storyline. Those ‘left behind’ in the hard-luck provinces have punched privileged, corporate London in the nose.

The facts tell a different story: culture and personality, not material circumstances, separate Leave and Remain voters. This is not a class conflict so much as a values divide that cuts across lines of age, income, education and even party. A nice way to show this is to examine the relationship between so-called ‘authoritarianism’ questions such as whether children should obey or the death penalty is appropriate, and support for the EU. The British Election Study’s internet panel survey of 2015-16 asked a sample of over 24,000 individuals about their views on these matters and whether they would vote to leave the EU. The graph below, restricted to White British respondents, shows almost no statistically significant difference in EU vote intention between rich and poor. By contrast, the probability of voting Brexit rises from around 20 per cent for those most opposed to the death penalty to 70 per cent for those most in favour. Wealthy people who back capital punishment back Brexit. Poor folk who oppose the death penalty support Remain.



A similar pattern holds in the British Values Survey for the strongly worded question probing respondents’ desire to see those who commit sex crimes ‘publicly whipped, or worse.’ Political psychologists show a close relationship between feeling fearful of change, desiring certainty, and calling for harsh penalties for criminals and discipline for children. These are people who want a more stable, ordered world. By contrast, those who seek change and novelty are willing to embrace immigration and the EU.



Precisely the same relationship – based on values rather than class – characterises support for Donald Trump. “I’ve found a single statistically significant variable predicts whether a voter supports Trump—and it’s not race, income or education levels: It’s authoritarianism,” wrote Matthew MacWilliams back in January.

http://www.fabians.org.uk/brexit-voters-not-the-left-behind/

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #204)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:25 AM

211. Fabians is a good source. But those statistics are not really relevant to your argument.

They say nothing about xenophobia which is what you attribute the vote to. There is nothing surprising about the fact that some wealthy people have a conscience about the current economic system/structure and would vote in manners that would alter it. There are plenty of economic progressives who are wealthy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #211)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:26 AM

212. "have a conscience" = "I want to bring back hanging and whipping"

okay then, I see you're utterly impervious to reason, have fun in your fantasyland.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #212)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:00 AM

215. Lol.

Listen, you are making a zillion assumptions about what I think -- and from what I can tell, they are all wrong. At the base, you assume that I think Brexit is good -- you are wrong about that. The European Union was a great idea -- but in my view, it has lost its way over time, just like the USA, in following trickle-down economic theory and, more recently, austerity, despite all of the evidence that it is not working. If the EU was working better, i.e., serving everyone better, the populist opposition to it would not exist to the extent it currently does.

As far as why Brits voted Brexit, my point has simply been that it continues to be foolish to discount and disregard the failure of trickle down theory and the growing popular discontent that has resulted. Sure, playing to xenophobia and other fears helped the Brexit front carry the day. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that. We have the same going on here with Trump (and the GOP frankly).

But blaming the outcome of the vote on xenophobes would be like me blaming Sanders' loss to Hillary on the southern blacks because without their en masse support of Hillary, Bernie would have won. That argument ignores all of the underlying reasons behind people's choice when they actually vote. That's basically what I think you are doing. And I have no idea why you would ignore underlying reasons driving the millions of non-xenophobes who voted Brexit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #46)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:01 PM

67. politics makes strange bedfellows, in this case some voted the right way

 

for the wrong reasons.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #43)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 01:16 PM

90. The Brexit vote wasn't monolithic though

Much of it was drawn from natural Tory voters - predominantly older, perhaps relatively affluent Little Englanders with a longstanding dislike of immigration and pretty much anything that isn't British. Often too polite (or devious) to be overtly racist, but getting a kick out of the winking racism their political heroes on the right serve up from time to time. Many tolerate the more 'one nation' Tories but idolize the Europhobes and ideologues in the Party. They don't resent the establishment, they resent anything or anybody that isn't establishment enough (British establishment that is). The Tories got 11,000,000 mill votes in 2015. Brexit was made for many of them.

Then there was the natural UKIP vote - they got 4,000,000 votes in last years general election i think, more than the Liberal Democrat party - and UKIP only really targeted 25 out of a total of 650 seats in that election. They had national scope in the referendum of course so there could well have been additional pent up demand for their brand of petty fascism.

In terms of the natural Labour supporters who voted Brexit, UKIP and their noxious cronies really did pull out all the stops to make sure that their pain and frustration was minted into resentment of immigration and the EU. Of course it didn't work with everyone, but it worked with a lot. I saw the impact among my own family and friends and encountered many, many Brexit voters who, rather than pointing the finger at successive Conservative and Blairite governments for their economic distress, blamed it on immigration and that fictitious £350 million a week we were paying into EU coffers.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #7)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:28 PM

75. Exactly. The Left, Jeremy Corbyn, British unions (not to mention Bernie) supported Remain.

The right played on voters fear of immigrants and OTHERS, just like Trump does here.

Sometimes FEAR wins. Donald is counting on it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:34 AM

8. That is a thoughtful and interesting read. Thank you for posting.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:35 AM

9. GREENWALD!!!!!

 











Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MohRokTah (Reply #9)


Response to MohRokTah (Reply #9)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:20 PM

113. How sad.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #113)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:22 PM

114. I know, the idiot is really sad.

 

It's sad somebody who supports the rightwing and is a racist gets so much play on DU, too. I mean seriously, the guy supported a Neo-Nazi for goodness sake!

Don't you agree?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MohRokTah (Reply #114)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:23 PM

116. Using that ridicule emoticon is sad on a politically liberal message board. Don't you agree? nm

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #116)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:25 PM

117. If what you say is correct, then blame the Admins, not me.

 

The Admins are the ones who included it and precisely for the reason I used it, too!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MohRokTah (Reply #117)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:32 PM

119. So if the Admins set a gun on the table and you picked it up and shot someone, you want to

 

blame the Admins?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MohRokTah (Reply #114)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:31 PM

118. I want to use this opportunity to use this as an example of the split in our Party.

 

Before you alert, I want to say that I fully support the Democratic Party and in no way advocate voting Republicon. But we shouldn't be in fear here of mentioning the major chasm in our party. The bitter primary battle was proof. Please don't bother with rationalizations about how every primary is contentious. Not like this one. The Progressives that have stood up will not "sit down and shut up."

How people feel about Glen Greenwald shows the difference in the sides of our Party. One side thinks he is a hero, willing to speak truth to power while the other side show a deep hatred for him. We are not close on this issue as many other issues.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #118)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:33 PM

120. .

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #118)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 06:38 PM

148. There is just as much a split in the Republican party over this as ours

With Trump on the "build a wall" side, and many more traditional moderates on the internationalist side.

It was exactly the same in the Brexit vote. Extremist leftists and rightists equally imagined that erecting barriers and bashing immigrants would be a good thing. The young, in Britain at least, weren't so stupid.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #148)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:11 PM

170. Here we are again with you calling the Progressive Wing extremists. And here again I will

 

ask on which issues do you think the Progressives are extreme? And after asking that question 100 times, when we are called extremist or ideologues, I have yet to get an answer.

Part of the time the Clinton supporters call us extremists and part of the time they are claiming that there is no chasm in the Party. I wish they'd make up their minds.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #170)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 10:03 PM

221. And here I'll answer you very clearly...

...by stating that anyone of the left who, like you, refuses to vote for the Democratic nominee, because you're so extremist you can't tell the difference between Democrats and Donald Trump, is so far out in koo-koo-land, "extremist" is the nice way to describe you.

Democrats make up about 35% of the country, of which the people who voted for Sanders made up about 45%, meaning 17%. Of them, only 8% are Bernie or Busters, which by my math, is less than 1.5% of the general voting public. Given that that percentage is less than a tenth of Americans who believe the Earth revolves around the sun, one might say with reasonable certainty that that's fringe.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #221)

Tue Jun 28, 2016, 11:26 PM

222. And again you failed to answer. You have no idea how I will vote. To say

 

I will vote for Trump or stay home is a STRAWMAN.

Now I will again ask the question that you are terrified to answer. When you vilify the left, on which issues do you disagree with us?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #222)

Wed Jun 29, 2016, 11:30 PM

223. I just took you at your written word...

You are exceptionally clear about how you are going to (not) vote in the general in the link I provided.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #221)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 08:57 PM

237. And again I ask where you disagree with the left and again you won't respond.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MohRokTah (Reply #9)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 04:30 PM

130. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MohRokTah (Reply #9)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 05:33 PM

139. MohRokTah!!!!!

puke:

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:45 AM

11. Great read. And the responses in this thread are perfect examples of what he is talking about.

 

"since the 1980s the elites in rich countries have overplayed their hand, taking all the gains for themselves and just covering their ears when anyone else talks, and now they are watching in horror as voters revolt."

Democrats almost overthrew their establishment elites this primary season. The republicans did.

If the US had a Brexit type vote, where the fascists and racists on the right would combine with the disaffected working class on the left, we'd vote "Leave" too. In fact, this entire primary season was one long "leave" vote for most of the population.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to fbc (Reply #11)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:53 AM

16. So we going to fight the Primary over once again??????

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cryptoad (Reply #16)


Response to fbc (Reply #11)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 02:49 PM

105. Nope, both Greenwald and those who agree with him are perfect examples of forcing a narrative

 

on situations that are nothing about that narrative.

Several folks have the facts here including Spider Jerusalem who actually lives in Britain and Muriel Volestrangler in this excellent post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7957988

Looking ahead to the Referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union on June 23rd, which, if any, issues do you think will be very important to you in helping you decide which way to vote?

Answers from those voting 'leave':

52%: The number of immigrants coming into Britain
22%: Britain's ability to make its own laws
18%: The impact on Britain's economy
14%: Impact on public services/housing
10%: The cost of EU immigration on Britain's welfare system
7%: Cost of EU membership fees
5%: The impact on British jobs
Others under 5%.

page 36: https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/pm-16-june-2016-tables.pdf

Inequality may have set the scene for this, but the right wing media has successfully stirred up anti-immigrant feeling - especially in older age groups.

Greenwald acknowledges that Corbyn is 'authentically left-wing', and was elected leader of the Labour party. And Corbyn campaigned for Remain. The majority of Labour voters (about two thirds) voted Remain. The malcontents were mainly right wing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #105)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:01 PM

167. Someone does not understand surveys...

 

The Classic case is from the 1950s, two surveys were done by two different auto makers, one asked people what type of car they will buy. The response was a car for four people, small fuel efficient engine, good mileage nothing fancy. The other car maker asked people what type of car they NEIGHBOR wanted. The response was a large car, a large engine, a lot of chrome and tall fins (This was the 1950s). Both companies built car based on their surveys,. The company that asked what people wanted in their cars, folded no one bought they car. The car maker that asked what type of car their neighbor wanted, make a lot of money.

That story is taught to this day in marketing classes. People what to response that makes then seem logic and something they see at present driving their decisions. The problem is people are driven by unseen forces and at the same time want to appear logical. Thus people decided saying immigrants was the reason for the decline in their economic decline is based on their present impression and appears to be logical. Austerity has driven a lot of hardship to a lot of people but at the same time people want to appear logical, thus they opt for immigration as what is driving wages down. They also look at local politicians helping them as a solution to their economic decline.

Just a comment that just because people said they voted one way do to X, does NOT mean X is wanted forced them to vote the way they did. In most cases it ends up being economics, for if all boats are going up, opposition to immigration and racism tends to decline (that is what happened in the US in the 1940s till the 1960s), on the other hand if the lower economic classes see a decline in their standard of living, they will look for reasons including racism and other rationales. We have to understand that what people SAY they did something is often NOT the real reason, but some sort of rationale, when the real reason is economics.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to happyslug (Reply #167)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:31 AM

188. Yes, it's quite possible the anti-immigration number was higher

It's not something people want to admit to, so they cloak it in other issues. No one would be ashmed to say they were voting for economic reasons, so why didn't they say that? It doesn't make logical sense, especially when you read the wailing and gnashing of teeth, 'don't call me racist!'.

I also live in the UK and this was an immigration vote - remember, the Tories were only re-elected last year and this referendum was a promise they made to stop Tories switching to UKIP. It is the Tories who are the architects of austerity here, but then people often do not vote in their best interest, they vote their prejudices and favorite 'single issue'.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:48 AM

12. No, Greenwald doesn't have evidence. Here's evidence:

Looking ahead to the Referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union on June 23rd, which, if any, issues do you think will be very important to you in helping you decide which way to vote?

Answers from those voting 'leave':

52%: The number of immigrants coming into Britain
22%: Britain's ability to make its own laws
18%: The impact on Britain's economy
14%: Impact on public services/housing
10%: The cost of EU immigration on Britain's welfare system
7%: Cost of EU membership fees
5%: The impact on British jobs
Others under 5%.

page 36: https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/pm-16-june-2016-tables.pdf

Inequality may have set the scene for this, but the right wing media has successfully stirred up anti-immigrant feeling - especially in older age groups.

Greenwald acknowledges that Corbyn is 'authentically left-wing', and was elected leader of the Labour party. And Corbyn campaigned for Remain. The majority of Labour voters (about two thirds) voted Remain. The malcontents were mainly right wing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #12)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:55 AM

18. Add the non-immigration responses together and you get 76%.

 

In other words, your own link shows that more than 3/4 of the respondents felt that the locus of control had slipped further from their reach, and that was a problem.

-app

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Reply #18)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:08 AM

26. No, the 'non-immgration' ones only add up to 52%

22%: Britain's ability to make its own laws
18%: The impact on Britain's economy
7%: Cost of EU membership fees
5%: The impact on British jobs

versus the immigration ones, which are what add up to 76%:

52%: The number of immigrants coming into Britain
14%: Impact on public services/housing
10%: The cost of EU immigration on Britain's welfare system

(and 'the impact on British jobs' can be taken 2 ways; it could be "there will be fewer jobs overall", or "immigrants are taking too many jobs". But, for the sake of argument, we'll take it as a non-immigrant one).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #26)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:12 AM

32. The effects of immigration is a valid concern and is not xenophobia/nativism.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #37)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:21 AM

40. If you were trying for an incomprehensible post you have succeeded.

Could you use some...words...to make a point in reply?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JonLeibowitz (Reply #40)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:22 AM

41. There is a link, there are words there, surely you know how to click (n/t)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #41)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:25 AM

45. Yes but the words have nothing to do with my point.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JonLeibowitz (Reply #45)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:27 AM

48. They have everything to do with your point

massive increase in racist incidents with Brexiteers shouting racist abuse at obvious "foreigners" and telling them "we won, time for you to go home"? If you don't see how that relates then you're not clever enough to be having this conversation.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #48)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:28 AM

49. My point was that the 14% and 10% figures are in the wrong category.

That they show nothing about xenophobia.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #48)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 08:26 PM

162. don't mean to but in your

conversation but when David Beckham got sent off in 98 world cup, people were ready to lynch him. Month later it was all forgotten. British people get emotional sometimes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JonLeibowitz (Reply #32)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:24 PM

74. Trump is counting on it. Xenophobia and nativists are, by definition, anti-immigration.

The whole Republican Party is built on anti-immigration. Every Democratic candidate is pro-immigration and seeking a way to enact comprehensive immigration reform.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #74)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:52 PM

83. But not all concerns about immigration are by nativists. This is a logical fallacy

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JonLeibowitz (Reply #83)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 01:08 PM

89. Of course not. But they can provide the winning margin. This is clearly a victory for the right,

nativist and non-nativist, though I'm sure some liberal non-nativists joined their ranks.

If Trump wins here in November the same will be true. For trump to win he has to hope that some liberal non-nativists join the ranks of his conservative nativist and non-nativist supporters. I doubt Trump will get many liberal votes but it ain't over til it's over.

If the only way we can beat Trump is with the help of racists, nativists, homophobes, I would not be happy. I figure the only way he can beat us is with the help of such voters.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #26)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:30 AM

52. We agree on much, but read some of the numbers differently.

 

I interpreted the 14%: Impact on public services/housing, and 10%: The cost of EU immigration on Britain's welfare system as both non-xenophobia-related since whether or not the immigrants are there is one issue, and how their costs are funded is another.

The EU not only mandated that Britain accept a certain number of immigrants, but failed to support Britain's public housing and other sectors in a manner that would have mitigated the costs borne by British citizens. One need not be racist at all to be angry that you were bumped 50 places down the list for public housing due to an EU mandate.

-app

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Reply #52)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:35 AM

54. Not necessarily 'xenophobia', but they're about immigration

Britain's public housing is not something that the EU has any control or influence over. It's the fault of the Tories who endlessly made sure councils had to sell off houses while making it impossible for them to build more, and all politicians (national and local) for restricting the amount of new private houses.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #26)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:43 PM

78. +1

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Reply #18)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:14 AM

34. 52%: The number of immigrants coming into Britain

That one alone reduces the non-immigration reasons to 48%, by its very definition. That doesn't even include the other responses that are related to immigration issues.

Your assertion makes no sense.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Reply #18)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:57 AM

64. Wow, just wow is that a silly way to look at it.

 

When you add 52 and 76 you get more than 100. Obviously people were able to vote for more than one thing. But a flat majority of people voted for immigration. More than double for any other item.

Oh and lumping the cost of immigration on the national welfare system as not immigration is at best disingenuous. Not to mention how do you differentiate between costs on housing that would also go to immigrants.

Greenwald is continuing is habit of being willing to twist any evidence to support the conclusion he wanted from the beginning. The Brexit vote was clearly based on bigotry and hatred.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mythology (Reply #64)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 07:52 PM

152. +1

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #12)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 07:50 PM

150. There it is then

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #12)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:04 PM

168. Someone does not understand surveys.

 

The Classic case is from the 1950s, two surveys were done by two different auto makers, one asked people what type of car they will buy. The response was a car for four people, small fuel efficient engine, good mileage nothing fancy. The other car maker asked people what type of car they NEIGHBOR wanted. The response was a large car, a large engine, a lot of chrome and tall fins (This was the 1950s). Both companies built car based on their surveys,. The company that asked what people wanted in their cars, folded no one bought they car. The car maker that asked what type of car their neighbor wanted, make a lot of money.

That story is taught to this day in marketing classes. People what to response that makes then seem logic and something they see at present driving their decisions. The problem is people are driven by unseen forces and at the same time want to appear logical. Thus people decided saying immigrants was the reason for the decline in their economic decline is based on their present impression and appears to be logical. Austerity has driven a lot of hardship to a lot of people but at the same time people want to appear logical, thus they opt for immigration as what is driving wages down. They also look at local politicians helping them as a solution to their economic decline.

Just a comment that just because people said they voted one way do to X, does NOT mean X is wanted forced them to vote the way they did. In most cases it ends up being economics, for if all boats are going up, opposition to immigration and racism tends to decline (that is what happened in the US in the 1940s till the 1960s), on the other hand if the lower economic classes see a decline in their standard of living, they will look for reasons including racism and other rationales. We have to understand that what people SAY they did something is often NOT the real reason, but some sort of rationale, when the real reason is economics.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to happyslug (Reply #168)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:33 AM

189. Dismissing what people say their reasons are is condescending

It's not as if economics was not brought up in the election; the Remain case was primarily "the economy will be better if we stay in the EU". You're arguing that you knew the real drivers behind British voters better than the voters knew themselves. You don't have evidence for that, just your opinion that you know better than they do.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:50 AM

13. k and r

interesting perspective

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:50 AM

14. neither side in this issue

is the solution nor the Problem in stopping the growth of Corporate Socialism that was seeded and promoted by Conservative Economic Doctrine in EU. Greenwald is unable to even frame the problem and once again chasing his tail!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:51 AM

15. Greenwald an UKIP on the same side.

 

Not really surprising when you think about it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to baldguy (Reply #15)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:16 AM

35. And Sarah Palin and Donald Trump

Those renowned experts on British politics.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to baldguy (Reply #15)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 01:51 PM

96. Seeing as how Greenwald made his bones defending a Neo-Nazi in Illinois...

 

it's not surprising at all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:54 AM

17. Gee, what a surprise, his analysis of the meaning dovetails with what he WANTS it to mean.

 

Anyone who knows what Greenwalds schtick is could have written this for him in advance.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #17)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:13 AM

33. LOL. That's rich...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JonLeibowitz (Reply #33)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:45 AM

60. Yes, it is, and obvious if you observe Greenwald for any length of time. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:58 AM

19. Wow. A Hillary slam and a Brexit defence in long

Hyperbolic, meandering article. I'll never get the time back from reading that.


Aaand...tucked way down in there...what's this?

Brexit – despite all of the harm it is likely to cause and despite all of the malicious politicians it will empower – could have been a positive development. But that would require that elites (and their media outlets) react to the shock of this repudiation by spending some time reflecting on their own flaws, analyzing what they have done to contribute to such mass outrage and deprivation, in order to engage in course correction. Exactly the same potential opportunity was created by the Iraq debacle, the 2008 financial crisis, the rise of Trumpism and other anti-establishment movements: this is all compelling evidence that things have gone very wrong with those who wield the greatest power, that self-critique in elite circles is more vital than anything.


So is Brexit a good thing or a bad thing?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:03 AM

21. The "official DU" stances are: "Brexit was xenophobia" and "Greenwald is a hack."

Greenwald is correct, of course. In this case, though, any opinion contrary to the "official" DU stance means you are uninformed or stupid.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PSPS (Reply #21)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:04 AM

23. Most of the posters here who are actually in the UK will tell you it was xenophobia

we probably have a better idea than you, or Greenwald.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #23)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 01:20 PM

92. Getting a better idea ....

Hi,

I have lost count of the people I meet who said "I'm not racist but...." before going on to criticise immigrants in the UK.

Interestingly, no one doing this in my presence drew a distinction between EU immigrants and others, although immigration from outside the EU has been more. I suspect some conflation on this point.

D.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dworkin (Reply #92)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 01:28 PM

93. Many people seem to be kind of confused on the subject

and post-referendum there has been a lot of public expression of racism directed at people who aren't immigrants from the EU (Indian/Pakistani, Muslim, Sikh, etc, visibly brown people, not white Europeans) telling them "we won, you need to go home now". And one of the big slogans of the "Vote Leave" campaign was "take back control" (which seems to be a kind of dog-whistle related to "take back control of our borders". A significant number of the "Leave" voters are...well, a little thick, to be charitable.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:09 AM

28. Every corner is using the Brexit to support their

agenda, which generally has nothing to do with it. It's hilarious to see. Bernie supporters claiming Bernie inspired it. Anti-Establishment people claiming it is about the Establishment. Glenn has to be relevant, the vote just happened, so he weaves it into his preexisting narrative agenda.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:10 AM

29. thanks for posting. Good article.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:16 AM

36. We do have options

Elect Hillary and allow the GOP Congress to tie her up as progressives
try to drag her left, which gives us time to work on our gerrymandering
predicament

or

elect Trump and sign the country over to Paul Ryan's budget and agenda.
Democrats will be reduced to filibusters and sit-in's.

Take your choice.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:16 AM

38. The Chris Hayes tweet is right on point as well. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:20 AM

39. Given GG's problematic immigration stances, it's hardly surprising he wants to deny xenophobia....

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to msanthrope (Reply #39)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:25 AM

44. Holy shit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Odin2005 (Reply #44)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:29 AM

51. Yes...someone with those views on immigrants is who we should listen to?

 

Unbelieveable.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to msanthrope (Reply #51)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:36 AM

56. This stuff is why as a Socialist I am suspicious of people calling themselves "left-wing populists".

IMO both LW and RW populists are two sides of the same coin, they want to go back to a mythical "golden age" when all was supposedly right with the world. My usual talking point against these people is that the answer to Globalist Capitalism is a Globalist labor movement and Globalist Socialism, not nostalgia about an idealized past prosperity that was ultimately based on the Capitalist exploitation of the developing world.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Odin2005 (Reply #44)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 07:56 PM

156. +1, he's a piece of work

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to msanthrope (Reply #39)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:29 AM

50. Oops. "Obama cultists" lol

Nice find. Thanks for posting. His backpedaling isn't terribly convincing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TwilightZone (Reply #50)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:37 AM

57. His Neo-Nazi civil client is a real peach, too. Although everyone deserves a criminal defense, I

 

often wonder at attorneys who take up the civil defense of property rights of those who advocate violence.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to msanthrope (Reply #39)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 02:07 PM

97. WOW!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to msanthrope (Reply #39)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 04:39 PM

132. That POS sickens me.

He's obviously a sheister, millionaire click bait journalist. Takes checks from billionaires, bitches about them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to msanthrope (Reply #39)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 05:03 PM

135. you forgot to post this part (no surprise) -->

it's at the TOP of the post:
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2005/11/gop-fights-itself-on-illegal.html

GG note: This post was written in 2005, one month after I began blogging. It was recently dug up by some Obama cultists trying to discredit my criticisms of the President (to understand what I mean by "Obama cultists," see this 2006 post I wrote about Bush cultists: exactly the same mentality). As my subsequent writing reflects over the next many years, this post does not remotely reflect my views on immigration. My response to someone who recently asked about it is here:

That was a 6 yrs ago: 3 weeks after I began blogging, when I had zero readers. I've discussed many times before how there were many uninformed things I believed back then, before I focused on politics full-time - due to uncritically ingesting conventional wisdom, propaganda, etc. I've written many times since then about how immigrants are exploited by the Right for fear-mongering purposes. I'm 100% in favor of amnesty, think defeat of the DREAM Act was an act of evil, etc. That said, I do think illegal immigration is a serious problem: having millions of people live without legal rights; having a legal scheme that is so pervasively disregarded breeds contempt for the rule of law; virtually every country - not just the U.S. insists on border control because having a manageable immigration process is vital on multiple levels. But that post is something I wrote literally a few weeks after I began blogging when nobody was reading my blog; it was anything but thoughtful, contemplative, and informed, and - like so many things I thought were true then - has nothing to do with what I believe now.

That's why Obama cultists have to dig back 6 years into my archives to try to find things to discredit me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nashville_brook (Reply #135)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 07:31 PM

149. You mean his non-apology where his excuse is that he was new to blogging?

 

Sure.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to msanthrope (Reply #149)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 08:02 PM

159. +1, as if he couldn't just look shit up on the thing he was using to blog with

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nashville_brook (Reply #135)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 07:57 PM

157. When he blamed it all on "Obama cultists", the sincerity of his "apology"

pretty much went out the window, especially after he said they're exactly like Bush cultists.

"I didn't really mean it" seems a little hollow in that context.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TwilightZone (Reply #157)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 08:06 PM

160. +1, also he had the means to look at both sides of the story vs just taking RW word for it...

... is one of the reasons why a lot of winger repentance rings hollow.

Hell... even on DU stuff has to be sourced ... just taking someones word for it good or bad doesn't fly

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to msanthrope (Reply #39)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 07:54 PM

154. +1

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:23 AM

42. Greenwald = Contrarian dipshit.

He's politically stuck in the "edgy teenage anarchist" phase.

EU regulations are protecting British workers and labor unions from conservatives wanting to go Full Thatcherism.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Odin2005 (Reply #42)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 05:06 PM

136. unfortunately, that's untrue. they're an extension of Thatcherism. but carryon.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:25 AM

47. That's surprisingly articulate writing for Donald Trump

 

Still bullshit though, but somewhat more eloquent bullshit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #47)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:53 PM

84. LOL

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:35 AM

55. for those who disagree with Greenwald, what about elites screwing the rest? Is that wrong?

Do you deny that they have hollowed out our democracy and work around it?

That they screw the middle and working class while filling their own pockets with all the gains in productivity that have resulted from technological advancement?

Every hour of our work produces more wealth, but that wealth only goes to the investor class not the people doing the work.

Then when wars to control gas, oil, and routes to transport the same produce oceans of refugees, those same people who already feel economically precarious resent the refugees instead of looking past them to those who are driving the refugees out of their homes.

This is the basic economic reality of our time. People have noticed and want it to change.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to yurbud (Reply #55)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:46 AM

62. Biggest problem is, we have polling from those voting to leave

 

and their reasons don't agree with Greenwalds take at all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #62)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:00 PM

106. It's mind-boggling that we're being accused of "smearing" people by calling them xenophobes when

 

they're practically yelling from the rooftops that they're fed up with foreigners.

I agree that not all concerns about immigration are invalid, but it is patently obvious that bigotry was a driving force behind the leave campaign and votes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chakab (Reply #106)


Response to Chakab (Reply #106)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:54 PM

122. Absolutely...

 

Sometimes it is what it is....and this was fueled by right-wing smears against immigrants more than anything else. ...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to yurbud (Reply #55)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 01:02 PM

87. Pro-Brexit elites used that line to get workers to vote against their own interests.

They outright lied in their campaign to exit the EU. But the main focus of the lies was on immigration--the pro-Brexit elite knew the 84% white Brits would fall for those lies. The Brexit vote was wrong on so many levels. You can't put lipstick on that pig by repeating one of the pro-Brexit bullshit slogans.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SunSeeker (Reply #87)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 02:18 PM

98. Why did some elite want it? I don't have a definite opinion on this, I'd like to hear

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to yurbud (Reply #98)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 02:33 PM

100. Ask them. Why does Trump do it?

Demagogues being demagogues?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SunSeeker (Reply #100)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 02:36 PM

101. If somebody has a lot of money, they rarely act without making more in mind

I'm not sure if Trump's demagoguery serves any bigger agenda than his own ego.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to yurbud (Reply #101)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:50 PM

121. Trump is out to help Trump, but he does illustrate a bigger problem

Last edited Sun Jun 26, 2016, 09:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Trump is pursuing an agenda that serves Trump, which is hardly a surprise. However, it can hardly be argued credibly that the GOP hasn't been leveraging the same misogyny and racism for decades to push their own agenda. And therein lies the problem, for me, with the superficial analysis of the Brexit vote that tries to dumb it down to just simple racism. Yes, rampant nativism dripping with overt racism fueled the vote itself, but what brought the UK to this point?

Think of it like the discovery of HIV. This may seem odd, but stick with me. Back in the 70's, gay men were dying at an alarming rate due to high incidences of certain types of pneumonia and cancer. It took years of research to find the culprit, but finally HIV was identified and, after a lot of political and social debate, action taken. Now imagine if those early researchers had simply settled on treating just the obvious problems, the cancers and other infections. If that were the plan, we would be trapped in an endless loop of fighting one opportunistic infection after another in a slow march to a predictably fatal outcome. They looked a bit harder and now we know the truth and have decades of progress to show for it.

Now replace "HIV" with "neo-liberalism" and "cancer' with "racism". Neo-liberal economic policies and the associated consequences (austerity, inequality, job loss, diminished educational opportunies, TTIP, etc.) create ever increasing pressure on the middle and lower classes, many of whom are at a loss to see a way out of their predicament. Along comes a Trump or a UKIP, proclaiming the system corrupt. They point to all the immigrants the elites are welcoming into the country to take jobs and spread disease and wrap their message in some pseudo heroic nonsense about "taking their country back!" Those destructive messages find willing minds among the disenfranchised and uneducated, an increasingly desperate group who are all too quick to throw their loyalty behind any slick snakeoil salesman with promises of a return to glory. It seems cliche to go the the WWII well and bring up Hitler, but here we are. Take an economically ravaged, post WWI Germany, add a bucket of deeply wounded national pride, point a finger or two at the Jews, the gypsies, and the homosexuals, and before you know it, you get WWII.

While many here are seasoned experts at dismissing everything with the byline "Greenwald" in it with deep and well reasoned arguments like or "Greenwald...BOO!", I think it might help to consider the possibility that the Brexit vote might be indicative of both a deep nativism AND a growing distrust of government. Getting people to recognize what neo-liberalism is and how to effectively fight it without giving in to simplistic pandering and racial hatred is the problem, no matter what side of the pond you're from. I don't really see anyone claiming that there was no racism or nativism involved in the Brexit results. I see plenty of people arguing that there is more to the story, and that if we don't want to repeat this scenario again, we need to treat the disease and not just the symptom.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TiberiusB (Reply #121)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 04:26 PM

128. those who reflexively dismiss Greenwald do more harm to their reputation here than his

There are some critics of Chomsky, Pilger, and respected voices on the left and I take their criticism with about as much weight, especially since it is seldom backed by evidence.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TiberiusB (Reply #121)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 09:10 PM

164. Well said!

Neoliberalism created this underclass of uneducated resentful people, and then neoliberals are shocked when someone comes along and exploits that resentfulness. These people have been shat upon continuously by a financial system that has diverted virtually all the gains from their labor, but they're supposed to sit back and eat their fucking peas. Uneducated people don't know the best way to make their voices heard, but things eventually come to a boiling point and in their anger, they throw vulnerable people in society on the bonfire when they're ready to burn it all down. It's a shame, but it has happened so many times in history that it should be no surprise now. The peasants will not put up with being ignored forever. Economic problems often become masked as social upheaval. Widening opportunities and better distribution of wealth are the remedies for an intolerant society.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TiberiusB (Reply #121)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 02:42 PM

217. +1000

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to yurbud (Reply #98)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 05:27 PM

137. Vulture capitalists

Descending to pick over the bones of the UK economy. And those wanting to get rid of pesky environmental and related rules that "hurt profits".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to yurbud (Reply #98)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:38 AM

190. Because EU rules keep them from removing British labor laws

I don't see why this is so hard for so many people to grasp.

The EU sets standards which members' labor laws must meet.

Tories want to lower those standards. If they stay in the EU, they can't.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SunSeeker (Reply #87)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:55 PM

123. Yup.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to yurbud (Reply #55)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:11 PM

108. You're certainly describing modern UK Conservative Governments

They've (quite knowingly) created and maintained a precariat in this country - they like it, it suits them and their cronies - but it's nothing short of heartbreaking for those of us struggling to stay afloat on zero hour contracts, poverty level wages and punishing rents.

Blairite Labour governments don't have entirely clean hands in this context either, but what the Tories are particularly adept at is dodging responsibility for their actions. They've been using the EU as a scapegoat for years.

I know that the Tories love selective austerity, that it's second nature to them, that they need absolutely no external prompting when it comes to visiting it on the working poor and other vulnerable groups. I know that, but many others don't. There's always another culprit pushed forward for vilification: the EU and (by implication and dog whistles) the immigrants, global economic conditions, cleaning up after an outgoing, oh so profligate (LOL) Labour government............

The chief irony of the Brexit fiasco is that it's EU standards that have kept Tory hands off the workplace rights we have left.

So here we are, post Brexit. What's in the offing? A gung ho, freshly mandated Boris Johnson or the like, with even more scope to do what the Conservatives like doing best. It's hard to see any sort victory for the left in that, I certainly don't feel like we've struck a blow against the establishment.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:57 AM

65. thank you so so much for this post!!!

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:01 PM

68. This part in particular

 

“the arrogance of neoliberal elites in constructing a politics designed to sideline and work around democracy while leaving democracy formally intact.”

Fucking nailed it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jester Messiah (Reply #68)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:57 PM

85. .+1

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:04 PM

69. Absolutely agree with Greenwald. Because of "free trade" and

 

other manifestations of corporate and oligarch greed -- e.g., monopolies, tax evasion, taking over our electoral system, having the mainstream media distract us with the latest shiny object -- our economic and overall wellbeing has been diminished.

The poor and middle-class are hurting and the wealthy and the Republicans don't give a damn.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Akamai (Reply #69)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 02:24 PM

99. The UK did not have 'free trade' (though it likely will under Boris Johnson's 'neoliberal fantasy

island' vision for the UK).

The UK as a member of the EU had high labor, high regulatory and high environmental standards tied to their trade with other EU countries. Now they will not - particularly under Conservative Johson's vision.

IF (a BIG IF) Brits were voting against "free trade", they really did not think this through. If they were voting against immigrants, they are very likely to get what they want. And if they need a wall in the English Channel, Americans can recommend just the man to build it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #99)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 02:43 PM

104. Young adults in England and Europe know what austerity is doing to their countries, their

 

job prospects, their futures. It sure seems that this vote is one way for them to try to "cast off the yoke" imposed on them by the wealthy elites.

I believe that if you asked them what they thought of austerity spending or rules imposed on their countries by wealthy elites many hundreds of miles away, they would react very strongly. They see their wages declining, their actual wealth decreasing, etc.

I sure hope Obama also pays attention to this and stops trying to push the TPP on the American people.I sure hope that Hillary as well comes out full-throated in her opposition to it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Akamai (Reply #104)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 04:34 PM

131. The UK Conservatives are quite independently wedded to austerity

or rather selective austerity, and they've never required outside pressure to apply it.

Of course, they've always been happy to be seen as under the yoke of the EU in this respect, and you can often catch them pushing this perception, but that really isn't reality.









Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TubbersUK (Reply #131)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:19 PM

179. You have stats that show kids up to 30 have no complaints about austerity? I think that would

 

be difficult to show.

Or maybe not. But let's see your stats on this!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Akamai (Reply #179)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:19 AM

186. That's not my point, as you well know

I'm baffled by your defence of the the UK Conservatives.

Strange bedfellows indeed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Akamai (Reply #104)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 07:51 PM

151. Young adults overwhelmingly voted to stay in the EU, so that's wrong too. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #151)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:26 PM

181. Seems to me that you are saying pretty much every youngster in the UK voted to stay in the EU. Maybe

 

yes. maybe no.

But I would be willing to bet many, many thousands of kids are concerned about their jobs in the future, etc. About how their prospects are diminishing as time goes by.

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think so and I don't want people to suffer unnecessarily.

Let's roll back all these "free trade" agreements and help the average American family, the average American, even those among us will lesser abilities.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Akamai (Reply #181)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:33 PM

182. The Leave leadership

would like to see the UK a free trade paradise. Their vision for the UK, as much as they have a coherent one, is as an offshore tax haven with low regulation.

Some of the people trying to inform you here actually live in the UK. It's up to you whether you listen to them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Akamai (Reply #181)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 05:15 AM

195. Only 21% of ages 26 and younger voted to leave, so as I said, overwhelmingly voted to stay. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:19 PM

73. Of course, all this globalism....

 

has allowed Greenwald to run his business from Brazil, without heavy tax obligations in multiple countries. He can live in that country because of generous immigration polcies, and he can travel freely because of globalist policies easing travel restrictions.

He's against "elites" taking advantage, unless the elite is him.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Adrahil (Reply #73)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:05 PM

169. +10!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:45 PM

79. What non-sense.

The polling is clear. The main issue was immigration.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:46 PM

80. Another petulant incoherent ramble from GG

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 12:58 PM

86. Good read. Thank you K/R

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 01:17 PM

91. This is part of the need to force a contrived narrative

we see this in various forms on this issue, and trumpism in particular,

Trying to negatively cast tertiary elements.

This is like the bullshit trying to blame Hillary or Obama for republicans' being jackasses.

Trying to blame other people for

1) Shit stirring jackasses foaming up bigotry and divisiveness
2) The masses being stupid enough to gobble it up and vote against their own interests

This need to somehow romanticize it.

It is simple, real simple.

People are fucking stupid asses in mass, and sometimes the stupid reaches a critical mass.

Like in 94 with republicans taking the house and senate.
Like in 2000 when this country elected a moron at POTUS.
Like in 2010 when this country saw fit to once again give republicans the house and senate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 01:29 PM

94. It's like when we talk tariffs and are accused of being anti-trade.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 02:40 PM

102. well, the neolibs support their masters and hate GG for many of his critiques directed at them

 

sometimes you could be led to believe that they think/believe that attacking the messenger is complete rebuttal to the content of thoise critiques, when really they just stupidly leave them entirely intact and unrebutted.

It's almost like they attended Trump University debating classes or something...lol

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 02:41 PM

103. Economic problems foster xenophobia among conservatives.

It's the conservative reaction to problems to find a group to blame. Fascism was born of economic hardship the last time around, as we know.

And the Brexit folks sure did hit economic promises (false ones) hard:



http://infacts.org/vote-leave-lying-saying-send-eu-350-million-week/


So arguing about "polling" is a bit facile. The right-wing is always there, selling racism and fear. They get people to buy it when people are suffering.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DirkGently (Reply #103)


Response to Name removed (Reply #109)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:18 PM

110. +1

Why did This Guy support stay?



Bezos held a gun to his head?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Name removed (Reply #109)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:19 PM

112. using the word swamped to describe immigration shows it right there.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Name removed (Reply #109)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:22 PM

115. Well they're clearly afraid of something.

No one gets this worked up over a simple "preference." Setting aside of course that Brexit likely won't change immigration policy at all of course.

This is how racists and fascists traditionally get traction. Doesn't work when times are good, whether immigration is high or low.

It works as a way for simple-minded people to feel like there's someone to blame. Someone easier to identify than short-sighted political leaders or bad economic policy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DirkGently (Reply #103)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 03:56 PM

124. It's also used as a tool by the conservatives/ neo-liberals to control the public.

 

Pitting one side against the other.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #124)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 04:07 PM

125. What I'm not following is this "progressives are the real racists"

beat that keeps getting thrown up against the wall..

What it appears is being attempted is that economic populism of any kind goes hand-in-hand with racism / xenophobia, because racism / xenophobia is also broadly populist.

Even though, you know, it's right-wingers. Who call themselves "right-wingers." Because they are right-wingers.

But it looks like people who feel aligned with economic elites would like to somehow conflate calls for economic reform, which comes from the people, with right-wing, nationalist, xenophobic extremism, on the basis that it also comes from "the people."

Not the same "people," but apparently that can be overlooked.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DirkGently (Reply #125)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 04:24 PM

127. It's very strange that some people that want social justice will sell their souls to

 

the Powers That Be, and give up economic justice for the weak promise of some social justice. It's not rational.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #127)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 05:03 PM

134. Social justice is free. Profitable, even.


Wealthy interests don't have a thing to lose from an inclusive, socially equitable society. No one does, although obviously plenty of people have thought otherwise.

But if it will keep people quiet, they'll certainly share depressed wages and a system of inequitably distributed resources with everyone.

Just don't ask for a raise or for Social Security not be handed over to the banks or less war anything like that. That would affect money, and money will not be compromised.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DirkGently (Reply #134)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:16 PM

171. Yes but the Powers That Be love to use social justice issues as a divisive tool which they

 

lose if they yield. That's why even the Third Way doesn't want to give out too much social justice.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 04:28 PM

129. Mr. libertarian, claiming that xenophobia had nothing to do with the Brexit. Funny that the voting

was right across generational lines. The younger generation approved staying, and the older generation approved leaving.

We will see just how well it works out for Great Britain in the months to come. Either way, Mr. Greewald won't be affected, and living quite comfortably in Brasil, while others will have to deal with the consequences.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to still_one (Reply #129)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 08:11 PM

161. +1, also the data clear says the majority voted on brexit cause of immigration here

... upthread someone posted the numbers.

Greenwald's spinning

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to uponit7771 (Reply #161)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 08:29 PM

163. That is a very important point, how close the referendum was

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to still_one (Reply #129)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:24 PM

172. Xenophobia is a tool used by the neo-liberals to stir up hatred and draw attention away

 

from their economic thievery.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #172)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:28 PM

174. xenophobia is a product of the conservatives, and the history of Europe has been filled with it

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to still_one (Reply #174)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:35 PM

175. It's a tool used by conervative/neo-liberals to stir up hatred similar to what Hitler did in Germany

 

Tell the people that it's the ______________ fault that they are economically hurting, while in fact it's the corporatists that are causing the economic problems for the 99%.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #175)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:39 PM

177. Have fun with your conspirisy theories

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 06:34 PM

147. Without looking him up with google...

can someone clue me into who and what a Greenwald is and why I would want to give a rat?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to fleabiscuit (Reply #147)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 09:33 PM

166. Most everyone here loved Greenwald

during the Bush years because he was one of the most hard hitting columnists on the net. Go back a few years: http://www.salon.com/writer/glenn_greenwald/

But then 2009 came, and instead of twisting his principles like a pretzel he kept writing about the same things (drone bombs, war, MIC) and his popularity sank like a rock. People may one day pretend to care about those things again but anyone paying attention will see right through their fake concerns.

"Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to fleabiscuit (Reply #147)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:23 PM

180. He's a libertarian who's been published by The American Conservative

and the Cato Institute, as well as some mainstream publications.

Not everyone on DU is a Democrat and some push Greenwald here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pnwmom (Reply #180)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:39 AM

191. The American Conservative also endorsed Sanders, in fairness. They're an odd bunch.

Just about the only part of the right worth regularly reading, though.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Recursion (Reply #191)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:43 AM

192. Probably because of his states rights positions. In the past,

he's taken state's rights positions on gun laws and marriage equality.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pnwmom (Reply #192)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:46 AM

193. Foreign policy

These are paleos, after all. They said none of the Republican field could be endorsed by a "conservative" as they understand the term, and of the rest that leaves Sanders as the one they prefer. (This was early, I think, before Gary Johnson's campaign had solidified.)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pnwmom (Reply #180)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 06:07 PM

219. Thanks. Libertarian party affiliated, he's American then? nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 08:01 PM

158. Yes! Due to lack of alternatives, everything clearly OUTSIDE establishment does Better Than Expected


The U.K. would not have been in any top five lists of racist countries before Brexit, but misunderstanding the Brexit majority probably puts it on a top five list now.

Simply put, a majority there will risk being associated with a Brexit minority of clear bigots and racists in order to reject failed elite projects like the EU. The bigots are listening to that majority while the establishment has refused to listen for decades and continues to double down on that number.

Everything clearly outside the establishment has or will do better than expected: Samders, Libertarians, Trump, racists. To say this is not an endorsement, but to fail to honestly wrestle with this "mood" that was decades in the making is political suicide, and worse yet, entirely cedes the anti-establishment power to some of the worst forces. Democrats need Sanders and Warren front and center to.Occupy Anti-Establishmentarianism.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:26 PM

173. I don't know much about

the EU, or BRexit, but looking from afar at the way the EU has treated Greece, which I also don't know very much about, I am inclined to be unenthusiastic about the EU as a system to enable and elevate the people.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:39 PM

176. It is a populist thing. Unfortunately the laziness of the average person

in keeping informed has allowed the forces of xenophobia and chest-pounding nationalism to co-opt what should be a people's movement. Plays right into the hands of the MIC if you ask me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Sun Jun 26, 2016, 10:55 PM

178. It seems that view doesn't seem to match the facts

"Now some pundits are suggesting that the real lesson of Brexit is that ordinary Britons are bearing an unacceptable economic cost from immigration, and that elites should heed that lesson and think about restricting immigration to other Western countries to prevent a similar populist backlash.

There’s just one problem: this narrative isn’t actually true. Data shows that Britain wasn’t suffering harmful economic effects from too many new migrants.

What Britain was suffering from too much of, however, was xenophobia — fear and hatred of immigrants. Bigotry on the basis of national origin."


http://www.vox.com/2016/6/25/12029786/brexit-uk-eu-immigration-xenophobia


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:26 AM

187. K&R for very uncomfortable truth

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 05:41 AM

197. Years ago he was ok guy, but now he's just a Alex Jones

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rockfordfile (Reply #197)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 06:22 AM

198. what pure BS... Jones is freaking insane

 

Greenwald is thoughtful and always has good points, even if he doesn't doesn't parrot the Democratic narrative.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:28 AM

200. Hmm.

" (2) petulant, self-serving, simple-minded attacks on disobedient pro-leave voters for being primitive, xenophobic bigots (and stupid to boot), all to evade any reckoning with their own responsibility. Virtually every reaction that falls into the former category emphasizes the profound failures of western establishment factions; these institutions have spawned pervasive misery and inequality, only to spew condescending scorn at their victims when they object. "

The fact of the matter is that there are a lot of primitive, xenophobic bigots who are indeed stupid. They are not limited to either America or Britain, but exist all over the world. There are issues of economics and security to consider in regards to immigration, and some few have genuine concerns about that. The real issue though (here as well as there) has to do with a deep sense of entitlement, racism, xenophobia - and indeed - stupidity.

How many armed militia groups exist today that are trying to "police the borders"? How many Republican voters condemn any attempt at all to resolve our immigration problems? To, for example, even permit children who were born here to remain - and for, perhaps, their parents to remain with them? From the right, we see stories of so called "anchor babies", angry denouncements of Mexicans taking all their jobs, receiving medical treatment when ill or injured... or worse, horror of horrors, receiving some kind of financial assistance through government programs.

There are issues of our time that have to do with Neoliberalism, or NeoConservatism, but the issues of white privilege, racism, ignorance, xenophobia and so on... these issues are the driving force behind a great deal of both poor policy decisions - and utter obstructionism in regards to any kind of legitimate progress.

Greenwald should consider how many Brits who voted to leave didn't actually know what they were really voting for. Were their issues with the Neoliberal elite? Neoliberal politics? Would they even comprehend what those things are? Do they even care? Somehow, for the most part... I doubt it. There may have been some level of resentment over economic issues and so on... but I'll bet you whatever pathetic change I have in my piggy bank, that a lot of that resentment was the idea that people who weren't British Nationals, who had come from away, who were of different race, Nationality, religion and so on... were being helped by funds and programs which they felt should not have been used for anyone but white British Nationals - if even them.

You can hear it all the time from American conservatives (and even some American democrats - though fewer), the frequent rants about the welfare system. Welfare Queens. Lazy free loaders. Gaming the system. Living "high on the hog" through TANF dollars, food stamps and so on. It's beyond stupid - when you consider just how little is actually done to help the poorest among us. Our social safety net does not lift people out of poverty. Government programs in general, whether state or federal... do not pay enough to maintain a reasonable standard of living.

I suspect that Britain and America, in this regards, have a lot in common. I don't know how Greenwald thinks engaging the "Neoliberal elite" is going to resolve this. What we should be doing (in my, perhaps, not so humble opinion) is combating the forces of ignorance, racism, stupidity, Nationalism, white supremacy, greed and selfishness. I am so damned tired of these imbeciles who could not take a simple lesson (learned in most Kindergarten classes and in most Sunday schools) to heart.

Share.

I feel that Greenwald is underestimating the power of petulant white people - and overestimating the power of the "Neoliberal elite". Fact of the matter is, we - and by we I mean white people in general - have some soul searching to do, some growing up. It is time to abandon that part of our ego that suggests that we are what is most important, to embrace, instead, the notion that we are all in this fight for survival... for progress... for liberty, together. We should be building bridges, bringing all peoples of the world together to address the issues of our time, to unify in resolving the issues of poverty, hunger, war, violence... and climate change.

This is no movement founded for justice against the wealthy powers that be, rather, it is the result of misunderstandings, poor education, ignorance, xenophobia, racism... and yes, even stupidity.

Don't get me wrong. America has the same damn issues - and, if anything, white people here are, in general, more xenophobic, racist, petulant, angry - and stupid. Many Brits who voted to leave the EU did not know what it was. Well, many Americans who voted for Bush could not have named the three branches of government. Could not have told you the difference between Iraq and Iran. We've got climate change deniers, evolution deniers, people who believe the earth is only a few thousand years old and disregard science to such an extent that it boggles the mind.

The stupid is everywhere - but that does not mean greater intellect is the solution.

The solution is really damn simple, actually. Let's all agree to share what we have with each other and to make the world a better place. If we can abandon our egos, swallow our pride and screw up our courage enough to give a damn... none of these debates will be necessary in the future.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:58 AM

206. I normally agree with GG, but he is miles off on this one.

 

Was there anger at the "elites"? Sure, but the vote at is base was xenophobic...it had almost fuck all to do with "taking back control", there was no control to take back, this was a vote against Johnny Foreigner pure and simple.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Mon Jun 27, 2016, 02:50 PM

218. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

The neo-liberals promote any meme except the abysmal failure of the Reagan/Thatcher neo-liberal new world order.

THey prefer to promote racism and xenophobia than condemn this failed model

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to malaise (Reply #218)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 05:37 AM

226. But Brexit was conceived, led and voted for by Thatcher's heirs and their supporters.

Thatcherites old and new were all over it.

ETA: I'm more than happy to condemn neo-liberalism, been doing it for years, particularly the Thatcherite version that the modern Conservative Party is using to victimise me and mine at the moment.

Brexit empowers those even further right than this character, some revolution:



David Cameron makes leaner state a permanent goal

The government is to forge a "leaner, more efficient state" on a permanent basis, David Cameron has said as he signalled he had no intention of resuming spending once the structural deficit has been eliminated, a clear change to claims made after the last general election .

In a change of tack from saying in 2010 that he was imposing cuts out of necessity, rather than from "some ideological zeal", the prime minister told the Lord Mayor's banquet that the government has shown in the last three years that better services can be delivered with lower spending.

Cameron said that the government would press ahead with tackling the deficit after cutting it by a third. But he made clear that his party intended to go further.

"We are sticking to the task. But that doesn't just mean making difficult decisions on public spending. It also means something more profound. It means building a leaner, more efficient state. We need to do more with less. Not just now, but permanently."



http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/11/david-cameron-policy-shift-leaner-efficient-state


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TubbersUK (Reply #226)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 06:43 AM

227. Precisely

but the dog whistles were racist and xenophobic. At the end of the day it is nothing more than the Reagan/Thatcher New World Order of neo-liberalism. Deregulate, Devalue, Divest increase debt and die.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to malaise (Reply #227)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 09:10 AM

233. Yep

They played the immigration card to the max.

It was odious.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to malaise (Reply #218)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:44 AM

229. Reagan/Thatcherism were half baked, but their followers very rarely were racists

 

From those I knew

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Albertoo (Reply #229)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 08:54 AM

231. I've never done this before, but there comes a time:

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TubbersUK (Reply #231)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:05 PM

236. :) and yet, I maintain my point

 

People who were Reaganites/Thatcherites were those drawn by an economic discourse,
not a social one, even less a racist one.

Now, racist hillbillies did vote for Reagan, but didn't do so on the grounds of Reaganomics.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Wed Jun 29, 2016, 11:46 PM

224. Greennwald's analysis is obviously self serving nonsense

 

Notably when he thinks he's making a point here:
The Los Angeles Times‘ Vincent Bevins, in an outstanding and concise analysis, wrote that “both Brexit and Trumpism are the very, very wrong answers to legitimate questions that urban elites have refused to ask for thirty years”; in particular, “since the 1980s the elites in rich countries have overplayed their hand, taking all the gains for themselves and just covering their ears

IF Brexit had been a rejection of the elites grabbing all the money,

Cameron would not have been reelected after savage cuts in social budgets and public service.

As usual, Greenwald is more of a fanatic than an analyst.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Albertoo (Reply #224)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 03:55 AM

225. I'm not saying that any 2-choice vote was 100% logical or consistent

 

Back in May of 2015, was Cameron's rival the genuinely leftist Jeremy Corbyn? No, on the Labour side it was classically failed neoliberal politics of Ed Milliband. Not a very clear choice for voters.

When voters are only offered two choices, they will often gravitate to "B" after years of "A" failing to deliver on its promises. It often does not matter that "B" is a total shit sandwich, 10x worse than "A."

In the Brexit vote, the neoliberal EU with its distant, unaccountable, meddling Eurocrats was "A." I agree with you that "B"ritain (see what I did there?) will not suddenly become a grass roots workers' paradise just due to the vote. But I still maintain that the failures of neoliberal Europe contributed heavily to the results of the Brexit vote.

-app

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Reply #225)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:42 AM

228. Ed Milliband, a neoliberal? I'm not sure we got the same facts on the table.

 

Blair was a rational reformer.
Ed Milliband, half his brother.
Jeremy Corbyn, an antisemitic Marxist clown.

Recently, Labour has been like London Bridge, falling down, down, down

Rabid Marxism is not an efficient defence of lower income people.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to appal_jack (Original post)

Reply to this thread