General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI think the British people are leading the 'revolution'....
...against income inequality and global economics. They are tired of their jobs shipped to wherever the labor is the cheapest. They blame immigration for most of their domestic turmoil.
There are probably more Americans, than we wish to think, that believe in a similar way.
People talk about a "change" election. It is difficult for an establishment figure to win in such a political environment. In my opinion, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are the embodiment of "change" candidates.
That is why Hillary needs every vote she can garner to win this upcoming race. She needs Bernie voters and everyone else she can get. The Catch-22 is that it will very difficult to accomplish with moderate positions on the issues. People want change. How can Hillary convince these voters that she stands for change?
We should not follow the polls too closely. Donald Trump could very easily win the White House. There is no room for complacency.
That's the way I see it.
Response to kentuck (Original post)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
randome
(34,845 posts)People will pull themselves up by their bootstraps the way God intended!
Response to randome (Reply #24)
rjsquirrel This message was self-deleted by its author.
Xipe Totec
(43,890 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)Unfortunately,it will fall on deaf ears with some.
kentuck
(111,094 posts)you are correct.
Dem2
(8,168 posts)davekriss
(4,616 posts)That was beautifully done!
Describes the moment well.
Xipe Totec
(43,890 posts)joshcryer
(62,270 posts)They have no leg to stand on. They will almost certainly get a far worse deal with the EU trade wise than they had before. In fact, that is absolutely certain, since they had all of those exceptions with the EU before (like being able to stay on the Pound).
kentuck
(111,094 posts)not the solution.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)You would get 99 blank stares. This vote was not about trade. It was about immigration and nationalism. Its not revolution, its devolution.
kentuck
(111,094 posts)Deeper, it is about trade and cheap labor and international agreements and a race to the bottom.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)in fact,there's a rapidly growing middle class in the 3rd world.
kentuck
(111,094 posts)The multi-nationals and the corporations are becoming very wealthy as the expense of the middle classes in developed countries, in order to increase the standard of living in third world countries. That is the nature of the new capitalism.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)the food chain back?
Chan790
(20,176 posts)I'm in favor of protectionism, national economic self-interest is a legitimate interest; the entire "free-trade" movement needs to be disemboweled. Anyways, we can do as much for the "third world" without self-mutilation with the adoption of "fair trade" polices that would be better for everybody except the oligarch capitalists on Wall St.
I have no apologies for thinking that way.
kentuck
(111,094 posts)to benefit third-world workers, or mainly to benefit the corporations that move their jobs mostly for the cheap labor and the increase in their bottom lines. This is a primary reason for the continuing income inequality in the world. You can trace it back to the trade agreements, which primarily benefit the big corporations.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But it would seem that many here (and elsewhere) are fighting the last trade war ... The best strategy for retaining "American" jobs and "American" wages is for the American worker to advocate for higher "3rd world" wages!
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)kentuck
(111,094 posts)when you pay the Vietnamese people 65 cents an hour, that may get them into their middle class but the jobs they do take a lot of Americans out of the middle class. That is not equality. That benefits no one except the corporations and businesses that improve their bottom lines. The Chinese that build Apple computers cannot afford to buy them.
Ohioblue22
(1,430 posts)PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)Much ad many people on this board wish it were otherwise. Sometimes people are just pricks and this is one of those.
Response to PaulaFarrell (Reply #10)
AntiBank This message was self-deleted by its author.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)All those British cars? Who did they sell the most to? Europe. 57.5% of their cars, to EU. Gun to their head is an underestimate of epic proportions.
kentuck
(111,094 posts)Last edited Mon Jun 27, 2016, 02:02 PM - Edit history (1)
I doubt it will make much difference, in that respect. The people will soon find out the truth.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)One where the EU gets to make the all the demands in the world and the UK, since it just shot itself in the gut, has no choice but to agree to them.
randome
(34,845 posts)I think that's why there is a petition for a re-vote: they have already found out the truth, and it isn't pretty.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)Its German
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Britain is going to suffer a nasty recession and it's gonna hurt more than Britain.
This was the equivalent of cutting off your foot because there is a splinter in your toe.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Labor makes a major push to prevent Article 50 from being enacted. Presses for EU reforms (whatever BS they can muster, making it more democratic, whatever). Stand tall in the Oct elections and see if they don't get kicked out. If they stay in, then the British people will have effectively reversed the will of the Brexit voters.
But it's a damn long shot from hell and I doubt Labor has the courage to attempt it. This is not illegal and it's not subverting democracy because it's well within the rules (the vote was non-binding), but it is political suicide.
If they do that, though, and succeed, they will go down in history as the greatest political maneuver in British history.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)1. The Labour Party is not in government;
2. There will be no October elections, unless the House of Commons passes a "No Confidence" motion; there will be a change of leadership of the Conservative & Unionist (Tory) Party (and perhaps of the Labour Party) by then.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)I thought they were having elections in October.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)so far...
Denzil_DC
(7,241 posts)It doesn't address the underlying causes of disaffection.
The UK (if it still exists as that entity), as it struggles to cope with the economic fallout, is going to become even more wedded to austerity, with added "justification."
And the future UK (or whatever it is), when all's done and dusted, is far more likely to resemble a free marketeer's dream of a tinpot offshore tax haven than a post-revolutionary workers' paradise.
Maybe not?
Denzil_DC
(7,241 posts)but just watch.
Turkeys voted for Christmas.
kentuck
(111,094 posts)...and are ready to vote for the TPP.
Do these agreements really help average working folks?
Do these agreements directly contribute to the continuing income inequality throughout the world?
Or are we to believe that, as we have been told a million times, the global economy is the new reality and there is nothing the people can do about it?
It appears the British people are getting ready to test that theory?
Denzil_DC
(7,241 posts)in the decade to come, it will have a relationship to the European bloc with opt-outs on various measures.
It will try to attract investors by undercutting the EU whenever possible, degrading regulations as far as it can, giving workers fewer rights etc. etc. That's what a lot of the griping from the upper echelons of the Leave camp was about (while it dogwhistled, sometimes foghorned, like crazy about immigration) - Europe ties our hands in these matters. It fits the pattern since the Thatcher years.
This vote has done nothing to rock that boat. If it's a revolution, it's a neoliberal coup in the making.
kentuck
(111,094 posts)before this vote ever took place. Most will overlook that fact.
Denzil_DC
(7,241 posts)It gives the austerity-mongers the perfect excuse:
Tighten your belts another couple of notches! Us against the world! Dunkirk spirit! Times is hard, but that's the price of freedom! We have our country back! If you're still suffering, it's the fault of {Insert pointy finger at succession of convenient scapegoat groups here}!
TubbersUK
(1,439 posts)and now they've been gifted:
(1) A handy excuse for visiting more pain on those of us already hurting
(2) More scope do so, now that our employment and other rights are up for grabs
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)The Tories has been pressing Thatcherite austerity, iced with a little anti-immigrant fervor just to get the votes. Thatcherism didn't work in the 80's, and it isn't working now. Cameron hoped he could defuse the te anti-EU faction of his party with this referendum, and still maintain their votes for his Thatcherite policies. He played with fire and got burnt. He'll go down into British history as an ignoble figure.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)And they will use the gutting of labor to reduce regulations and cause even more internal strife. And of course, the 10% immigrant population will be blamed for the continued degradation of the country. Until they really do start mass deportations.
Denzil_DC
(7,241 posts)It's gotten exhausting having to keep pointing this out.
Visit the UK group if you like, as quite a few of us UK DUers are all but giving up on trying to discuss this on the rest of the board and going over the same old ground again and again (though we'll no doubt still keep popping up).
Chan790
(20,176 posts)I don't think it's as much that we're ready to vote for TPP/TTIP...it's better known than the butchers want it to be and people are mostly opposed. I think the turkeys are about to be betrayed by politicians that lied and said they oppose TPP; they were believed and nobody laid attention to the knife behind their back.
No more FTAs! It's time the US used its bully-pulpit and walked away from the ones we're in. Not negotiated withdrawal...unilateral "Fuck you, we're not doing this anymore" and "Fuck you, we're not recognizing the legitimacy or authority of the entities of this agreement."
What are Canada and Mexico or South Korea going to do if we simply refuse to abide the authority of the star-chambers of these FTAs? Go to war against us?
TubbersUK
(1,439 posts)Speaking as one of the UK's economically marginalized, the Tories have just been handed an even bigger stick to beat me with.
Selective austerity is second nature to them, just occasionally they even own up to it:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/11/david-cameron-policy-shift-leaner-efficient-state
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/13/david-cameron-austerity-public-sector-cuts
Chan790
(20,176 posts)this was a huge stick for the liberals in the UK to use to beat the Tories senseless at the polls...but the libs seem more interested in self-mutilation and trying to oust Corbyn because they don't want him in charge if they take back the government.
TubbersUK
(1,439 posts)Chan790
(20,176 posts)I was reading an article in The Independent yesterday, I may have gotten information crossed but the gist was Corbyn's shadow cabinet and leadership team were resigning en-mass following what they were calling a "coup attempt" led by Hilary Benn to oust him as head of the party.
I can't find the article I was reading but this seems to be the followup:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-faces-worst-labour-crisis-since-1935-as-party-is-hit-by-mass-resignations-a7104951.html
TubbersUK
(1,439 posts)the timing is very unfortunate given the possibility of a snap general election in the autumn
ETA: As you said, if they were in better shape they might have been able to make hay with some of the absurdities thrown up by Brexit
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)The Brexit vote was a xenophobic one. This romanticism about revolution is not realistic.
BeyondGeography
(39,374 posts)trying to save his worthless ass.
It'll have ramifications all right, but they will be so sad as to discourage imitations. We don't have national referendums anyway, which is a damned good thing.
Igel
(35,309 posts)That's change. So I what I really want is just change.
However, I'm likely to see work conditions deteriorate, and my neighborhood's only likely to get worse.
That's change.
Gee, I'm getting what I want. I wanted change. I get change.
If you don't get past the superficial form of words and look at the word's referents; if you don't realize that some words don't so much have unique and clear referents but function as placeholders; if you don't realize that one very nice, very appealing, and very specious form of argumentation relies on shifting the meanings of words subtly so that people are led to want what they don't want; then discussion is difficult. Polemic is much easier, however.
Look at the polls. Brexit was split in its vote. You look at partial data, and it's the enlightened versus the troglodyte. But if you were liberal or Tory or UKIP, you gave pretty much the same answers for why you voted Remain. If you were liberal or Tory or UKIP, you gave the same answers for why you voted Leave.
Remain wanted primarily financial benefits, and the EU provided them. The Leavers wanted more say, they wanted to feel empowered. Both are needs: one is material, although accoutrements of wealth also go to psychological well being for many. The other is psychological. Call it "respect" and "dignity", to use politically popular words. Yeah, there's some racism thrown in there, just like more than a few of the Remain voters are greedy consumerists. (Diversity and nuance. Empathize with it.)
You see the same effect in the US. A lot of people want benefits, but they want more say. That can be retirees wanted reduced government but more benefits. It can be welfare recipients wanting more benefits and with fewer restrictions on how they can use them. It can be the sick wanting increased public health care but less preaching on lifestyle choices and their risks, or students wanting free education but no restrictions on what they can study (or "I want the prestige of English degree from this school, but you have to revise it to include just what I want" . We like the perquisites but not the requisites. For some, the perks are more important; for others, the desire to avoid what's requisite.
What's really hard is that often it contradicts our notions of class consciousness. (But that's okay, we have "false consciousness" to fall back on--we really know what's best for those poor benighted people, if only they'd trust us.)
Take, for example, the "red alert" post yesterday: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027959733
The concern is that all the EU regulations that Britain may not have wanted will fall by the wayside, and this is a horrible thing. Well, if we like democracy then if "Britain" doesn't want all the enviro-regs then they shouldn't be force-fed them. If Britain wants them, they'll reinstate them. However, the attitude is that British Leavers hate being told what to do with immigration and such, but luvs them some forced-feeding of environmental regulations. In other words, we see what *we* want to see, not what the voters say. Being force-fed regulations and having immigrants imposed on them is, as far as the polls go, the same thing: The average voter is being talked down to by technocrats and bureaucrats who make far more than he does and have cushier jobs. Call it "respect" if you want to. But ultimately, the technocrats win because if they don't get what they want the first time, it comes back over and over. Many of those saying the electorate voted and there must not be a re-do are the opposite when it comes to what they want--it just takes one vote, so hold the vote over and over until you get what you want.
Their voters were alienated. And they voted their alienation. But that alienation takes on a lot of forms and has a lot of causes. In a democracy, the government has to be concerned about satisfying those citizens, whether the rulers agree or not. Talking down to their lessers will not produce joy and gladness.
Ex Lurker
(3,813 posts)and DUers. Calling someone stupid and ignorant is a good way to insure that they never listen to your ideas. It happens a lot on DU. If you're not on one of the coasts or in a major urban area, you're an inbred hick to DU. And yet we wonder why vast areas of flyover country have written off the Democratic Party entirely.
Response to kentuck (Original post)
Post removed
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
kentuck
(111,094 posts)Response to Post removed (Reply #33)
B Calm This message was self-deleted by its author.
BlueMTexpat
(15,369 posts)"the revolution," then the UK have just screwed themselves royally ... right off a cliff and likely into their own break-up.
Please stop this iteration of RW (or RLW) TPs.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)The only change and it will not come in any great rush is that the UK will extricate itself from the EUs extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal. This will bring not threats, but golden opportunities for this country to pass laws and set taxes according to the needs of the UK.
Yes, the Government will be able to take back democratic control of immigration policy, with a balanced and humane points-based system to suit the needs of business and industry. Yes, there will be a substantial sum of money which we will no longer send to Brussels, but which could be used on priorities such as the NHS. Yes, we will be able to do free trade deals with the growth economies of the world in a way that is currently forbidden.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/
He's not going to look to fix inequality; he wants less employment regulation, or environmental regulation. He's all for free trade, and a race to the bottom for employment conditions.
Denzil_DC
(7,241 posts)It might save many of us UK Duers a lot of typing and spittle.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)"The stock market is way above its level of last autumn; the pound remains higher than it was in 2013 and 2014. "
Pound-dollar rate 2013-14: low $1.48; high $1.72. Now: $1.32 (31 year low)
http://www.indexmundi.com/xrates/graph.aspx?c1=USD&c2=GBP&days=1825
The stock market was, last autumn, between 5900 and 6400; it's now dropped to the low end of that, rather than being "way above".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market_data/stockmarket/3/twelve_month.stm
If Johnson's idea of 'calming the markets' is to ignore the figures and make his own up, we're extremely fucked.
Denzil_DC
(7,241 posts)If you didn't see it, I posted this Nick Cohen Guardian article in Good Reads:
There are liars and then theres Boris Johnson and Michael Gove
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016161801
I usually don't have much time for Cohen on foreign policy, but on the domestic front he's OK, and it's a ripping read.
pampango
(24,692 posts)If they are going after "income inequality and global economics" by voting out labor and environmental protections and voting in Boris Johnson's "hyper-capitalist island freed from EU regulation", a "neoliberal fantasy island", they did not really think this through.
Unfortunately I am not confident that American voters will think things through any better than British voters did. If right wing populists like Johnson and Nigel Farage can win in the UK, their American equivalent - Trump - must be taken very seriously indeed.
CrispyQ
(36,464 posts)I know lots of white collar workers who don't consider themselves labor, even though the greatest percentage of their income comes from their labor. Many of them were disdainful of unions. Now lots of those professionals, especially in IT, have seen their good paying jobs shipped overseas. In the USA, we specifically need to un-do the harm Reagan did to the image of unions. If you were born after 1980, all you've heard is that unions are bad.
I thought this was an interesting article, although it's 11 years old.
Whats the Future of Globally Organized Labor?
by James Heskett
03 OCT 2005
Summing Up
Globalization could spur organized labor to rethink its premises, objectives, and strategies. But the prospect for that is not clear, according to respondents to this month's column. As Arun Joshi put it, "Now that the world is becoming a global village, it falls to labor's competency and its ability to move up the value chain that will allow it to share the positive gains. If labor tries the old tactic of strikes, management will just outsource the staff from somewhere else ... "
~more at link: http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/whats-the-future-of-globally-organized-labor
On edit: I don't know how we do it. The multinationals have so much clout.
greatauntoftriplets
(175,735 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)also have anything to do with the rise of China's renminbi to world currency status, rivaling, seriously, the dollar, pound and even the euro along with a host of others?
If not, okay....but the quiet machinations behind the current world financial drama playing out because of the China world currency bid which has been granted.....in conjuction with AIIB who touts a 40 nation signatory list....Britain, Germany and Australia on that list in favor of the conversion of the yuan, leads me to see it this way.
mainer
(12,022 posts)Economically deprived areas of England received generous subsidies from the EU that they never got from their own government. Now they're losing those subsidies. A vote for Brexit was actually a vote to hand MORE power to the rich.
https://twitter.com/FT/status/746681886131486720
Rex
(65,616 posts)ONE! Not TWO or THREE! ONE!
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)pampango
(24,692 posts)labor and environmental standards of any trade association? Let's get rid of labor and environmental standards and turn things over to conservative politicians. That should work.
That's one hell of a way to lead a 'revolution' against global economic and income inequality.
liberal N proud
(60,334 posts)Britain is in the lead but the US is holding the Trump card.
AllTooEasy
(1,260 posts)N. Ireland, Scotland, and Gibraltar voted to Remain. Please don't generalize.
TubbersUK
(1,439 posts)Handing the whole show over to the Conservative Party, the oldest and probably the most dominant party political elite the world has ever seen, one of the brightest stars in the neo-liberal firmament?
Some revolution I must say.
AllTooEasy
(1,260 posts)South America and Africa have had lots of them. How did those turn out?