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Human101948

(3,457 posts)
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 04:26 PM Jul 2016

Clinton Calms Silicon Valley’s Worries, Promises To Preserve High-Skill Visas

Presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton vowed on Thursday to uphold the high-skill visas prized by the tech industry as part of comprehensive immigration reform, clarifying media reports that suggested her position on immigration policy would make it harder for Silicon Valley companies to hire talented workers.

“Part of what we have to be strong in standing for is a credible path forward for reform that is truly comprehensive, addressing all aspects of the system. Including immigrants living here today, those who wish to come in the days ahead. From highly skilled workers to family members. To those seeking refuge from violence wherever that might occur,” Clinton said, speaking to a room full of Latino activists during a speech at the League of United Latin American Citizens (LULAC) conference luncheon.

http://thinkprogress.org/immigration/2016/07/14/3798330/clinton-h1b-visa-plan/

H1B visas are part of solving the immigration problem?

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Clinton Calms Silicon Valley’s Worries, Promises To Preserve High-Skill Visas (Original Post) Human101948 Jul 2016 OP
Preserving H1B visas is part of a comprehensive approach bluedye33139 Jul 2016 #1
They're not cheap shots, worked in IT and the contracting companies out and out lied about ... uponit7771 Jul 2016 #3
Recruiting companies lying bluedye33139 Jul 2016 #5
Disney workers replaced Cayenne Jul 2016 #4
I'm not requiring "workers" to believe anything bluedye33139 Jul 2016 #6
So screw overpaid Americans? Cayenne Jul 2016 #11
Why do you hate America? bluedye33139 Jul 2016 #12
Why do you not express concern ... GeorgeGist Jul 2016 #40
Why don't you care more for good white decent 'Murkan's, you mean? bluedye33139 Jul 2016 #43
Bullshit. Having worked for a fortune 100 telecom, I can tell you it's all about driving wages down. X_Digger Jul 2016 #22
Is there anything there to bolster displacement laws? We don't need to worry about visas if the ... uponit7771 Jul 2016 #2
Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #7
Lack of both nuance and context once again... typical. LanternWaste Jul 2016 #9
H1B visas are bullshit angrychair Jul 2016 #8
The contempt for American workers is appalling Cayenne Jul 2016 #14
There's no consensus - in the economist and social science community at least - Politicub Jul 2016 #19
I saw it first hand, as a hiring manager. I know what we paid US workers vs H1Bs for the same job. X_Digger Jul 2016 #23
Sounds like a shitty company with shitty policies Politicub Jul 2016 #25
Agree bluedye33139 Jul 2016 #26
Bullshit. There is no lack of talent. X_Digger Jul 2016 #29
Data? bluedye33139 Jul 2016 #34
Every company that I've worked for that used H1bs was the same. X_Digger Jul 2016 #28
You're a focus group of one Politicub Jul 2016 #30
What skills specifically do the US workers NOT have gd770226 Jul 2016 #36
There's not enough - it's not that people are getting turned down Politicub Jul 2016 #38
No they wouldn't. Statistical Jul 2016 #37
That doesn't describe where I work Politicub Jul 2016 #39
The Canadians seem to manage ... GeorgeGist Jul 2016 #41
Well, Canada Politicub Jul 2016 #42
HB1s are important Politicub Jul 2016 #10
Important for the rich, not the workers Cayenne Jul 2016 #13
Unless you're a person with an HB1 Politicub Jul 2016 #17
And the US citizens displaced do not depend on their jobs for their livelihood? gd770226 Jul 2016 #20
Just wait for mass automation - HB1s will seem quaint in comparison Politicub Jul 2016 #27
Call me crazy, I think we should try to find Americans for domestic jobs before importing workers. Warren DeMontague Jul 2016 #15
Borders bluedye33139 Jul 2016 #24
I agree. My husband works in IT and the vast majority of the H1Bs prayin4rain Jul 2016 #35
I guess I will be sitting out this election. modem77 Jul 2016 #16
That makes zero sense Politicub Jul 2016 #18
Why should anybody vote for somebody that flat out supports a program that takes jobs away. gd770226 Jul 2016 #21
one thing for absolutely certain, Trump will do the same and worse. Ignore his mouthy rhetoric. tonyt53 Jul 2016 #32
Won't vote from Trump either gd770226 Jul 2016 #33
There are Americans skilled for those jobs. Wtf? onecaliberal Jul 2016 #31
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2016 #44

bluedye33139

(1,474 posts)
1. Preserving H1B visas is part of a comprehensive approach
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 04:31 PM
Jul 2016

There is a lot of nativist anti-H1B talk going on in the US today, as we approach immigration reform. Protecting H1B visas is an important part of a rational plan to reform immigration.

Some people try to score cheap "America First" points by attacking tech companies for hiring H-1B workers. H1B visas are an important part of solving America's immigrant problem, cheap shots from nativists aside.

uponit7771

(90,301 posts)
3. They're not cheap shots, worked in IT and the contracting companies out and out lied about ...
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 04:33 PM
Jul 2016

... wages paid TO the person do the work vs the fully burdened cost to the company paying for the labor.

bluedye33139

(1,474 posts)
5. Recruiting companies lying
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 04:38 PM
Jul 2016

I can easily believe that there are recruiting companies that lie about the wages they pay. I support your point 100%.

Cayenne

(480 posts)
4. Disney workers replaced
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 04:35 PM
Jul 2016

The American workers are supposed to agree that H1-Bs are good? Are we sure we are Democrats? If Trump is allowed to take this issue........

bluedye33139

(1,474 posts)
6. I'm not requiring "workers" to believe anything
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 04:41 PM
Jul 2016

I'm not requiring anyone to believe anything. I'm stating that H1B visas are currently an important part of our immigration system, and I believe that people who immigrate on an H1B visa generally experience an improved life.

I get uncomfortable if the question become: Should good decent native-born Americans not become filled with rage at the thought of foreigners getting good jobs? It kind of asks me to determine whether or not people's xenophobia or immigrant-phobia is justified, and ... well, I am not the one to justify anyone's emotional sense that there are too many foreigners taking "our" jobs.

As for the Trump question, I might not be understanding you. Trump is getting this issue in the sense that he is not jumping onto the rightwing attack on H1B visas? I guess, in a sense, Trump's decision to break from Sessions and the rightwing cabal that wants to do away with H1B visas could persuade anti-Trump folks to agree with Jeff Sessions and the rightwing racist junta on this issue, but ... I don't think that's a legitimate analysis. Sessions is wrong. Trump is accidentally right about protecting H1B visa holders from the nativists. Should we do away with H1B highly skilled workers because Trump disagrees with the GOP on this?

Cayenne

(480 posts)
11. So screw overpaid Americans?
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 05:46 PM
Jul 2016

Disney just recently had its IT staff train the new, cut rate H1-B immigrants. Yes, those jobs belong to native Americans and not foreigners. Why do you hate the American tech workers, paid too much?

bluedye33139

(1,474 posts)
12. Why do you hate America?
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 05:58 PM
Jul 2016

Why do I hate America? Have you stopped beating your wife?

Why do I hate? Why? Why?

Um, I'm going to bow out of this. The rhetoric is a little odd.

GeorgeGist

(25,308 posts)
40. Why do you not express concern ...
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 03:54 PM
Jul 2016

for American tech workers who are deliberately displaced by lower paid immigrants?

bluedye33139

(1,474 posts)
43. Why don't you care more for good white decent 'Murkan's, you mean?
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 04:00 PM
Jul 2016

Yes, I am not writing abundantly about the thirty-five Disney employees commanded by their management to train their lower-paid replacements. You are totally right about that.

In part, it's because the number 35 is statistically insignificant when you look at the millions of employees we are talking about. There isn't high-quality data showing that H1B employees lower wages in general. That's another reason I'm not parrotting the demagogue-beloved rhetoric of good white 'Murkan's being pushed aside by hideous brown people.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
22. Bullshit. Having worked for a fortune 100 telecom, I can tell you it's all about driving wages down.
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 09:53 PM
Jul 2016

Fuck that shit.

uponit7771

(90,301 posts)
2. Is there anything there to bolster displacement laws? We don't need to worry about visas if the ...
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 04:32 PM
Jul 2016

... displacement laws were enforced and companies weren't allowed to out and out lie about wages

Response to uponit7771 (Reply #2)

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
9. Lack of both nuance and context once again... typical.
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 04:56 PM
Jul 2016

Lack of both nuance and context once again... typical.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other-- each containing precisely the same amount of petulance and supporting evidence for the premise. Allow us objective, peer-reviewed evidence for your conclusion, else it's simply another, typical bumper-sticker.

angrychair

(8,677 posts)
8. H1B visas are bullshit
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 04:54 PM
Jul 2016

No, it is not some "America first" xenophobic nonsense.
It is a totally different and unique issue.
I have been in the IT industry for 20 years and H1B visas are a valid tool to temporarily fill positions that are in significant demand and no ability to fill that need.
More importantly, if there is a significant need for a particular technical skill or discipline than those companies should be working with their respective state's university system and unemployment office to fill that need on a permanent basis.

Sadly, that is not what is happening.

Wages in the IT industry are becoming more and more stagnant and, depending on your education and training, harder to find a decent paying job with a reasonable schedule and benefits.
IT companies should not be allowed to use H1B visas as a permanent fix or as a way to get around prevailing wage and benefits to take advantage of a person from a poorer country.

Cayenne

(480 posts)
14. The contempt for American workers is appalling
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 06:10 PM
Jul 2016

The purpose of H1-Bs is to drive down wages for the American worker. It works.

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
19. There's no consensus - in the economist and social science community at least -
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 08:24 PM
Jul 2016

That HB1 visas drive down wages. So the question becomes, should the number of these visas be curtailed or reduced? I tend to err on the side of getting more educated workers in America, not less.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
23. I saw it first hand, as a hiring manager. I know what we paid US workers vs H1Bs for the same job.
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 10:01 PM
Jul 2016

I worked at Verizon, and we were ALWAYS being pushed to bring in devs that we paid $50k/year for, vs $70k/year which was the prevailing wage.

Then once the H1B was approved, they worked those guys like fucking dogs; they were terrified to refuse for fear that their status would be revoked.

Guys would be sharing 2 bedroom apartments between four of them. (We paid the company $50k, they made about $25k.)

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
25. Sounds like a shitty company with shitty policies
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:15 AM
Jul 2016

That's a corporate culture problem, not an HB1 problem. The company would be just as employee unfriendly if HB1s went away completely because it's rotten to the core.

bluedye33139

(1,474 posts)
26. Agree
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:18 AM
Jul 2016

I see people targeting this program as if it's causing corporations to act ingredient abusive ways. When in fact these companies are acting this way because they want to and because they can. The highly skilled worker visa program is irrational and positive thing, and the workers that we bring into the United States make our economy stronger. There is a dearth of available technical skill in the United States, and it is a fact that we require highly skilled Tech workers and that they are available through this program.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
29. Bullshit. There is no lack of talent.
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:23 AM
Jul 2016

There is a lack of talent willing to take 1/2 the industry standard pay to do the same job.

bluedye33139

(1,474 posts)
34. Data?
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 11:08 AM
Jul 2016

I live in Seattle (currently; will be leaving because the cost of living is 2.5x the average) and know a handful of folks on H1B visas who make wages equivalent to their "native" colleagues.

I get that this has been framed as an us-versus-them thing, and there are highly publicized stories of companies using H1B visas to leverage against their workers, but it is the motivation of the corporations to lower wages that is the problem, not the visa program itself.

The agitation against the H1B visas is a rightwing campaign led by Sessions and other ethnocentric extremists who want to preserve the "Anglo/white" cultural composition of the United States, and I've been stymied by white heterosexual male progressives allying with the rightwingers on this issue. The Center for Immigration Studies, for instance, is one of the most vociferous racist organizations in the US, and it gets tons of support from anti-immigration "progressives" that ... well, I don't support anti-immigrant ideologies in general, no matter how Independent-VT the anti-immigrant activists are.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
28. Every company that I've worked for that used H1bs was the same.
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:21 AM
Jul 2016

They're a means to drive wages down.

Free clue: Nobody's tombstone will ever read, "He added shareholder value."

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
30. You're a focus group of one
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:30 AM
Jul 2016

Just because you had a certain experience doesn't mean that all companies are like that. The place where I work can't find enough talent to fill all developer roles. They hire whoever has the skills they need to get the job done.

I'm with you on the shareholder value thing. I place the blame on investors punishing companies that invest for the long term. It's all about the next quarter.

 

gd770226

(35 posts)
36. What skills specifically do the US workers NOT have
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 11:59 AM
Jul 2016

I see this all the time. People say the company they work for can't find developers, my own company included. So, what skills specifically do the candidates NOT have that is the deal breaker and makes the foreign worker the better option?

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
38. There's not enough - it's not that people are getting turned down
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 12:18 PM
Jul 2016

Tech companies will take all of the development talent they can get, unless the company isn't doing well.

If you have an untapped source of experienced people who know multiple modern and legacy development environments and languages, please send it my way. I could use the extra money from referring these experienced candidates for jobs here.

Statistical

(19,264 posts)
37. No they wouldn't.
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 12:14 PM
Jul 2016

We are talking about skilled workers. Trying to do that to Americans would simply mean the American leaves for a better employer.

H1B workers are essentially wage slaves. They have no rights. If they complain they go home, if they leave the employer they go home (and take a 99% paycut and probably have no way to feed their families). So the suck it up and do what they are told. 80 hour work weeks, substandard pay, work outside of their job description (a common trick - hire an experienced db developer under a H1B for entry level tech support and then have him do db work at an entry level tech support pay).

You have a system where the worker has no power, no choice, no control and no matter how awful the American company is, the situation back home is even worse.

There is one simple way to fix H1B program. Make companies pay 200% of the prevailing wage (with prevailing wage determined by the govt). The employee gets half of the pay and the govt gets the other half to cover costs. Companies would only use H1B when there is no qualified American because why pay 200% for an H1B when you can pay an American 100%.

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
39. That doesn't describe where I work
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 12:23 PM
Jul 2016

Or would want to work.

What you don't get about HB1s is that there's a lot of competition for these visas because the jobs are there.

Some employers are cheap and awful. Some are not. HB1 is far more nuanced and complex than you make it out to be.

Reforming the program would be great so visa holders get more flexibility. I know companies in my market would like to have the access to talent.

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
42. Well, Canada
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 03:59 PM
Jul 2016

They seem to do everything better than us. No surprises there.

And truly, I have no idea how the Canadian immigration system works. Other than I will be exploring it should the election not go in the way we want.

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
10. HB1s are important
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 05:02 PM
Jul 2016

I'm in tech and work with a lot of HB1 visa holders. It's not some abstract notion to me like many others who complain. These are individuals with skills needed for today.

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
17. Unless you're a person with an HB1
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 08:14 PM
Jul 2016

Then the job is your livelihood. It's easy to talk about groups in the abstract. It's a more complex when you think about the educated men and women who hold these visas.

 

gd770226

(35 posts)
20. And the US citizens displaced do not depend on their jobs for their livelihood?
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 09:46 PM
Jul 2016

I'm sorry, but I was displaced by a H1B person a few years ago. It was a horrible experience. I had 17 years at the company. I was the most senior person with the most experience and most qualifications for that job, but that didn't stop them from replacing me with a cheaper H1B. So I call BS on trying to get sympathy for the H1B person needing the job for their livelihood, so do I.

This is the #1 reason why I will not, and never will vote for Clinton. Won't vote for Trump either, but for differant reasons.

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
27. Just wait for mass automation - HB1s will seem quaint in comparison
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:20 AM
Jul 2016

Your single issue will not go away by burying your head in the sand by withholding your vote or using it for someone who has no chance of winning. I think the answer is a universal basic income for what's coming next with the global economy.

I'm done talking with you about this topic. It's clear that your mind is made up and I'm tired of wasting my time. Have a good day.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
15. Call me crazy, I think we should try to find Americans for domestic jobs before importing workers.
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 06:17 PM
Jul 2016

And yes, I understand the logic of tech companies and H1B visas.

Maybe that makes me "nativist", however, it seems to me there are separate questions around immigration- one, do we provide a path to citizenship for the undocumented workers who are already in this country- some of them for decades- or continue to keep them off the books so that companies can pay them substandard wages with no benefits, etc. (Or promise to deport them, which is completely unrealistic as well as immoral)

That's one thing. But no country in the world doesn't control its borders or somehow try and regulate immigration. The idea that it is intrinsically immoral to regulate immigration in any way- well, I don't think that's what anyone is advocating, is it?

The only people who believe borders should be erased are Ayn Rand/Club for Growth types, last time I checked.

So it's really a question of what, how, how many, etc. And the H1B visa program isn't about working to document people already here, it is a way for companies to actively recruit people to come and take high-paying jobs.

Now, fine. Maybe that's a net gain for the US and worth it. It's a logical argument, and we should have that conversation. But not pretend it's the same thing as a path to citizenship for millions of undocumented workers who are already here.

The other part of the equation is "well, Americans simply don't have the skills for these jobs"- and why is that? Why aren't we educating our kids for the jobs of the 21st century?

Maybe we should have that conversation, too.

bluedye33139

(1,474 posts)
24. Borders
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 09:58 AM
Jul 2016

I have been told just this week by a progressive opponent of the TPP that their main complaint was that the TPP did not allow for the free movement of labor and people across borders. So, there are some progressives who also believe in opening borders fully.

prayin4rain

(2,065 posts)
35. I agree. My husband works in IT and the vast majority of the H1Bs
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 11:29 AM
Jul 2016

that are hired are not for extremely high level jobs. For example, a large portion are hired for QA work. Average college graduates could EASILY be trained to do QA work in a matter of 6 weeks or so. The H1B program is very clearly being abused.

modem77

(191 posts)
16. I guess I will be sitting out this election.
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 06:30 PM
Jul 2016

I am not going to vote for anyone that wants to help take my job away.

 

gd770226

(35 posts)
21. Why should anybody vote for somebody that flat out supports a program that takes jobs away.
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 09:51 PM
Jul 2016

I have a family to support. When I lost my job to a H1B replacement it took me 13 months to find a new job, and that job paid 25% less than my previous job. When unemployed I had to eat away at what little savings I did have, as my child support did not stop or get lowered. Child support didn't even get lowered once I got a job at a greatly reduced salary. 4 years later and several good raises, I still don't make what I made years ago. So I still struggle each month in paying everything. So forgive me if I consider this issue very important for me.

I still believe in and support other liberal democratic policies, but I in no way can support this and have to not vote for anybody that does support this program. Deal breaker issue for me.

 

tonyt53

(5,737 posts)
32. one thing for absolutely certain, Trump will do the same and worse. Ignore his mouthy rhetoric.
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:35 AM
Jul 2016

Trump WILL continue and even expand the H1B program. Look at his past history. It is all about money.

 

gd770226

(35 posts)
33. Won't vote from Trump either
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:54 AM
Jul 2016

I'm not 100% sure that Trump will expand H1B program, but it doesn't matter, I have no intentions of voting for him either. At this point I simply plan to sit this one out.

It would be nice if there was a candidate that was serious about protecting US jobs. They certainly try to talk a good game about investing in jobs, creating jobs, blah blah blah. But then do shit that is the exact opposite of what they say about existing jobs. H1B's take jobs from US citizens and they suppress wages. Why ANY politician would create and support this type of program is beyond me. Our government is supposed to work FOR us and HELP US.

Wages in the tech industry have gone nowhere for a long time now, why do you think that is? It's a bullshit policy and it needs to go away. How about a policy to give the tech companies tax credits for providing training or giving money to colleges and other places that train tech workers. There are lots of things that can be done instead of simply giving these companies the cheap labor they want. I find it very odd that anybody on a site like this would support H1B's. There are tons of threads on minimum wage, basic income, living wages, etc., which are all good, but then why would you support all those workers but then not tech workers? I just don't get it.

Response to Human101948 (Original post)

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