Should we extradite Muslim cleric Fethullah Gülen to Turkey for trial/execution?

[realmirage]

I don't know a whole lot about this guy yet, but Turkey wants his ass on a platter. I was thinking about what we should do with Muslim leaders who advocate shit stirring that results in people's deaths in other countries. Normally, if they are citizens, they should be protected, but do the current times call for something different? Just posing the question.

[Duckhunter935]

1. Follow the laws and treaties

[NutmegYankee]

2. No. The man is a lawful US resident and is under the protection of our Laws/Constitution.

Let Turkey really prove it has a conspiracy case to justify an extradition.

[still_one]

3. exactly

[Throd]

4. ^^^^Yep.

[Rex]

10. Wait...you mean we shouldn't just hand him over?

But the cable news people said so.

[backscatter712]

5. Only if the evidence justifies it.

Make it like any other extradition case: Turkey can present its evidence, and if they can make a credible case, then perhaps an extradition is in order.

OTOH, If all it is is Ergogan using the coup attempt as an excuse to purge his enemies, I see no reason why the US should help him.

What evidence do they have?

[realmirage]

15. Even if this cleric is an extremist whose demise

would help prevent terrorism? Just a theoretical question

[Yo_Mama]

28. That allegation must be substantiated. It hasn't been, to my knowledge.

Erdogan has a host of critics; he was arresting Turkish scientists and journalists who didn't follow his agenda before the "coup". Now he appears to be purging the judiciary, which has often correctly held that his initiatives violated the Turkish Constitution. Because many of them have.

To extradite someone in these circumstances is almost certainly a violation of the US Constitution. Erdogan is destroying the Turkish Constitution through might. It would be a witless tragedy if he were permitted to subvert OUR constitution.

I look forward to the Obama administration growing some balls and saying "no", but I suspect they will shunt it to our courts who will say "no".

[phleshdef]

37. Well he isn't anything close to that at all.

Muhammed Fethullah Gülen (born 27 April 1941) is a Turkish preacher,[5] former imam,[5][6] writer,[7] and political figure.[8] He is the founder of the Gülen movement (known as Hizmet meaning service in Turkish). He currently lives in self-imposed exile in the United States, residing in Saylorsburg, Pennsylvania.[9][10][11]

Gülen teaches a Hanafi version of Islam, deriving from Sunni Muslim scholar Said Nursî's teachings. Gülen has stated that he believes in science, interfaith dialogue among the People of the Book, and multi-party democracy.[12] He has initiated such dialogue with the Vatican[13] and some Jewish organizations.[14]

Gülen is actively involved in the societal debate concerning the future of the Turkish state, and Islam in the modern world. He has been described in the English-language media as an imam "who promotes a tolerant Islam which emphasises altruism, hard work and education" and as "one of the world's most important Muslim figures."[15][12]

....

Gülen has condemned terrorism.[68] He warns against the phenomenon of arbitrary violence and aggression against civilians and said that it "has no place in Islam". He wrote a condemnation article in the Washington Post on September 12, 2001, one day after the September 11 attacks, and stated that "A Muslim can not be a terrorist, nor can a terrorist be a true Muslim."[69][70] Gülen lamented the "hijacking of Islam" by terrorists.[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethullah_G%C3%BClen

[backscatter712]

38. Make the case in court.

If he is indeed an extremist, and his actions were inciting this insurrection in Turkey and leading to violence and death, and doing so in violation of the laws of the US and Turkey, I'm sure the court would be more than happy to rule for extradition.

We're a country of laws.

[Schema Thing]

6. Naw.

[pangaia]

7. I can not believe this OP.

Obviously you don't know anything about him, or Turkey, or the self-proclaimed president of Turkey, or "Muslims," or.....



What are "the current times?"

[realmirage]

12. Relax, I didn't say what I think, just posing the question

[Joe the Revelator]

8. To be frank, we should do absolutely jack shit that Erdogan wants.

Fuck him.

[realmirage]

16. Why is that?

[Joe the Revelator]

19. He's a power hungry quasi-dictator with support from Hamas among many other things. nt

[JCMach1]

58. 100% correct... Erdogan has crossed the dictatorship rubicon...

[Rex]

9. I read he has been tried in absentia three times in a court of law.

SO where is the guy? Are we sure he is even still alive?

[realmirage]

13. He's in Pennsylvania

[Rex]

17. Are we sure?

Someone has seen the guy in the past week?

[ansible]

21. There's a lot of protestors outside his Pennsylvania home right now protesting

https://twitter.com/BBCBarbaraPlett/status/754435599470321664

[Rex]

22. Wow, this is so fast too fast imo.

This is going to get out of hand, Egypt already weighed in and NOT on the side of their President either. Somebody wanted all those judges removed in a hurry, this sounds bigger then just two men and a few military generals.

[AntiBank]

33. 10 quid says most of those protestors are Erdogan stooges

[LeftyMom]

32. Yes, the BBC interviewed him a couple of days ago.

He lives in the Poconos. He's not hard to find.

[modem77]

11. No. We should never suspend civil liberties because "current times call for something different"

[realmirage]

14. Lincoln did it, so there is precedent. Just putting that out there

[MADem]

18. Not without proof that he's done anything wrong, which has not been presented.

And, which he has vehemently denied.

Also, in future, testimony under torture doesn't count.

The Turkish President is looking for someone to blame, and to give him an excuse for killing and imprisoning thousands of military personnel.

[realmirage]

23. Edit

I can't seem to find clear info on whether this guy is a closet extremist with an agenda or just another regular religious nut like Pat Robertson.

[MADem]

24. The current President wants to be a dictator.

The accusation that he set this up, a faux coup, to do an end run ahead of any real one, to me is plausible.


The neutrality of this article is in question, but it might help you formulate a few opinions re: Gulen:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BClen_movement

[Yo_Mama]

27. And arresting judges by the thousands, scientists and journalists.

Arresting nearly three thousand judges is enough to provide facial evidence that Gulen would not receive a fair trial.

Erdogan has flipped his wick. It is very sad for Turkey and Turks, but the wrath of a would-be autocrat does not and should not figure in US court deliberations.

I suspect Erdogan is deliberately brewing up this fight, because in the past he has received strong support from his base when he's started one of these "publicity quarrels".

[MADem]

47. Particularly since it was the assessment of the intelligence agencies that the army wouldn't

move against him in the near term. He'd already gotten rid of most of those he perceived as "troublemakers." This was his way of clearing out the deadwood from Field Grade on up.

I feel sorry for Turkey. I have some friends there, haven't seen them in years, mind you, but still think of them on occasion. I can imagine what they're thinking and feeling. It's probably something akin to despair.

[Yo_Mama]

49. And worry - deep worry. I would be in fear. n/t

[MADem]

50. They're all from military households, too.

I know some of my friends are on the facebook, but I don't think it's prudent to go seeking them out at this time. Hell, anything coming from USA could be taken the wrong way.

[Yo_Mama]

51. Yes, best not. And Turkey is going after Facebook.

Very dangerous to them to try to contact them in any way from the US.

I bet Erdogan is using some of the facilities supposedly set up for refugees as political internment camps - he must surely have run out of conventional prison space.

[MADem]

52. Military installations are good for that kind of thing ....

[Strelnikov_]

20. Absolutely

The Gülen movement is a transnational Islamic civic society movement inspired by Gülen's teachings. His teachings about hizmet (altruistic service to the "common good&quot have attracted a large number of supporters in Turkey, Central Asia, and increasingly in other parts of the world

Sounds like an existential threat to dictator's and corporatist's everywhere.

[Yo_Mama]

26. Well, as the journalists, judges and even scientists are arrested in Turkey,

one may imagine that all ethical voices in opposition are perceived by Erdogan as anathema. This does not mean that any justice system with decency should render unto Erdogan.

[Yo_Mama]

25. He may be extradited only if there is real evidence of a crime.

Otherwise, the Constitution and human decency require that this man be fully protected.

If Turkey files an extradition request through diplomatic channels, an extradition order may be granted. However, Gulen has the additional right to a habeas corpus petition in a regular US district court - this allows him to demand that Turkey show evidence for the charges in a US court.

I would expect a US court to be suspicious of Turkish authorities after thousands of judges there have been arrested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_the_United_States

I would expect an "expanded" review of any habeas corpus petition filed by Gulen.

For diplomatic reasons, the US Dept of State would probably prefer that the courts said "no" rather than the US government. It seems obvious that Gulen cannot obtain a fair trial in Turkey under the current circumstances. Thus it is probably a violation of the US Constitution to extradite him without incredibly clear evidence that he committed a real crime.

[brentspeak]

29. Muslim cleric whose name might as well be "Emmanuel Goldstein". n/t

[Bernielover357743]

34. No

He is a US citizen. He should be protected as such

[JI7]

35. should Salman Rushdie be turned over to Iran ?

[Democat]

41. Some on DU probably think he should

Those posters who hate everything about the west.

[trumad]

55. The some on DU are surface readers of the new. They see it on Fox and believe shit.

[realmirage]

45. Salman Rushdie was not advocating terrorism

so it doesn't compare well to the question in the op

[JI7]

46. that's the accusation of those who support ISIS

[MADem]

48. According the the ulema he was--he was advocating "un-Islamic" principles, which is a crime against

the state in a nation that practices sharia law.

He committed a "crime" in Iran.

[LettuceSea]

36. HELL NO

Erdogan is a dictator and a doormat to ISIS. The 'coup' is just a way for him to identify and weed out the 'traitors' and consolidate his power.

Unfortunately, I predict he's going to cause a lot more problems re: regional and world stability.

[phleshdef]

39. Hell no. He is one of the Muslim voices we NEED influencing the Muslim world as much as possible.

By standards of "Sharia law Muslims" (the right wing of Islamic culture) vs The opposite, he is a liberal Muslim in that context.

[Democat]

40. Turkey removes more than 2,700 judges

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1520957
Do you think he would get a fair trial?

[davidn3600]

42. We have an extradition treaty with Turkey

And it specifically outlines the legal process that Turkey needs to follow. If they don't like that then they can go pound sand.

Sorry Mr. Erdogan. But we are a nation of laws.

[Bradical79]

43. Despite the death penalty being a thing in the U.S.

I don't want to extradite anybody to a country where they will be executed, guilty or not. Let there be evidence, a trial if necessary, and life imprisonment if found guilty.

[Iggo]

44. Just answering: Nope.

[bemildred]

53. We should stall at least six months, longer is better, and then refuse on humanitarian grounds. nt

[Her Sister]

54. Let's ask Trump & do the opposite!

[MariaThinks]

56. No.

[Calista241]

57. Depends on if we want to keep bombing / fighting Isis.

And on what Israel wants. At the end of last month, Israel and Turkey normalized relations, which is a GIANT boon for Israel. It would be very easy for Erdogan to make wholesale changes to anything he wants in the wake of this coup attempt. Turkey is in a VERY strong position to get what they want from us.

If this guy was smart, he'd mosey on up into Canada, which is probably less susceptible to pressure of this sort than we are.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

59. Only if two things that I don't expect to happen do.

1) Turkey would have to show strong evidence that he was involved in the planning of the coup.
2) Turkey would have to provide believable, cast-iron guarantees that his trial would be fair and that even if convicted he would not face torture or execution.

I don't expect either of those to happen.

If 1) happens but 2) doesn't, the USA will be in an awkward position - I don't know if there are provisions in national or international law for dealing with people who are probably guilty but can't legitimately be extradited? But that's mostly a hypothetical - I doubt Gulen was anything to do with the coup.