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How long before DU decides to turn on the ACLU... (Original Post) Lancero Sep 2016 OP
Much of DU already hates the ACLU for supporting the Citizens United decision (nt) Nye Bevan Sep 2016 #1
ya can't help but question that move for sure. very very strange Divine Discontent Sep 2016 #2
I don't Bucky Sep 2016 #8
Amen to that Bucky. Dyedinthewoolliberal Sep 2016 #20
Well said PatSeg Sep 2016 #30
YOU ONLY SPEAK FOR YOURSELF & A FEW REPUBLICANS!!! Jeffersons Ghost Sep 2016 #14
Do you have a link or anything? demmiblue Sep 2016 #3
THE ACLU AND CITIZENS UNITED Omaha Steve Sep 2016 #37
I support the ACLU when I agree with them.... Adrahil Sep 2016 #4
^^^ THIS ^^^ Tarheel_Dem Sep 2016 #5
+1 uponit7771 Sep 2016 #40
ACLU has defended the Klan, T-Baggers and Limbaugh among others. lpbk2713 Sep 2016 #6
ACLU position on flag desecration klook Sep 2016 #27
+1, good point... they have a history of having the strength of their convictions uponit7771 Sep 2016 #41
I turned on them 40 years ago marybourg Sep 2016 #7
Yes, god forbid you uphold a principle when it applies to shitheads. X_Digger Sep 2016 #11
They can speak, but they're marybourg Sep 2016 #16
you gotta do what you gotta do, but I can explain my reasoning for reaching Warren DeMontague Sep 2016 #22
"I support free speech. Not as a preference, but as a principle." NaturalHigh Sep 2016 #24
Strange reason to "turn" on them...I thought the ACLU was incredibly brave and courageous tritsofme Sep 2016 #12
"America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship" LongtimeAZDem Sep 2016 #17
If he wishes to speak, fine. marybourg Sep 2016 #18
But my money is MY speech AlbertCat Sep 2016 #32
"Corporations are people, my friend." -- Rmoney. Iggo Sep 2016 #35
The only proper response would be to get yourself... Rochester Sep 2016 #19
I hate Illinois nazis. Iggo Sep 2016 #36
That has happened many times liberal N proud Sep 2016 #9
If they have to remain 'pure' and can't make decisions on their own... randome Sep 2016 #10
The ACLU went over the top ages ago. MohRokTah Sep 2016 #13
Free Him,,,, Has Russia Locked him up Cryptoad Sep 2016 #15
There are people here who think that it should be illegal to draw 'blasphemous' cartoons. Warren DeMontague Sep 2016 #21
Since the ACLU is very pro-free speech... NaturalHigh Sep 2016 #23
DU has never really liked the ACLU linuxman Sep 2016 #25
Ten minuites n/t Kilgore Sep 2016 #26
while i respect the ACLU, i also have often thought some of their stances went against my principles La Lioness Priyanka Sep 2016 #28
DU is never more than one Rawstory 'article' away from turning on anything. Bonx Sep 2016 #29
LOL...I only wish I could disagree. NaturalHigh Sep 2016 #39
?? Been away from DU for awhile, have we? Blue_Tires Sep 2016 #31
Correct! Everyone is falling for Stone's marketing for his film. FSogol Sep 2016 #33
There are many authoritarians among Democrats alarimer Sep 2016 #34
That is their right however naive I think they're being but arthritisR_US Sep 2016 #38
I support free speech for all including assholes. PufPuf23 Sep 2016 #42
Free speech is free speeh. But what is speech? Is it something tangible and attributable? haele Sep 2016 #43

Divine Discontent

(21,056 posts)
2. ya can't help but question that move for sure. very very strange
Mon Sep 12, 2016, 07:58 PM
Sep 2016

their Constitutional arguments really are weak on why CU is okay.

Bucky

(53,511 posts)
8. I don't
Mon Sep 12, 2016, 08:22 PM
Sep 2016

I think the ACLU takes the pure position every time. I expect them to do that, regardless of practicalities, and I'm grateful that they do, even when they work against my interests. There's bigger principles at play here and it's good that there's a group out there holding that line.

Citizens United decision sucked, of course, but the ACLU isn't the party that made that terrible decision.

Dyedinthewoolliberal

(15,381 posts)
20. Amen to that Bucky.
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 12:49 AM
Sep 2016

Ever since the Shrub got in and started wreaking havoc, I have sent the ACLU money........

Omaha Steve

(98,381 posts)
37. THE ACLU AND CITIZENS UNITED
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 10:46 AM
Sep 2016

https://www.aclu.org/aclu-and-citizens-united

Snip: In our view, the answer to that problem is to expand, not limit, the resources available for political advocacy. Thus, the ACLU supports a comprehensive and meaningful system of public financing that would help create a level playing field for every qualified candidate. We support carefully drawn disclosure rules. We support reasonable limits on campaign contributions and we support stricter enforcement of existing bans on coordination between candidates and super PACs.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
4. I support the ACLU when I agree with them....
Mon Sep 12, 2016, 08:06 PM
Sep 2016

And don't when I don't.

They are dead wrong on this.

klook

(12,082 posts)
27. ACLU position on flag desecration
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 09:02 AM
Sep 2016
Flag Desecration

Our democracy is strong because we tolerate all peaceful forms of expression, no matter how uncomfortable they make us feel or how much we disagree. The U.S. Supreme Court has affirmed and reaffirmed that the right to desecrate the flag is included in the Constitution’s protection of speech.

Flag burning and desecration is offensive precisely because it is political. Experience shows that the way to fight political expression with which one disagrees is not to outlaw it, as Congress has repeatedly sought to do, but to express disapproval.

The ACLU has led organizing efforts against legislative attempts to ban flag desecration, including fighting back recently proposed constitutional amendments in 2004, 2006, and 2011. We worked with veteran groups, religious leaders, and other Americans to highlight opposition to the amendment and lobby senators to vote down the proposals. We will continue to react quickly and forcefully to any future attempts to restrict the protections of the First Amendment.

Source: https://www.aclu.org/issues/free-speech/rights-protesters/flag-desecration

I get frustrated when it seems free speech advocates bend over backward to protect the rights of fascists. But the ACLU protects the constitutional rights of all, regardless of content.

marybourg

(12,481 posts)
7. I turned on them 40 years ago
Mon Sep 12, 2016, 08:14 PM
Sep 2016

when they went to court on behalf of a Nazi march through Skokie. Ill., a town where 1 in 6 then residents was a Holocaust survivor.

for those who never heard of this event:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Party_of_America_v._Village_of_Skokie

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
11. Yes, god forbid you uphold a principle when it applies to shitheads.
Mon Sep 12, 2016, 09:10 PM
Sep 2016

Free clue: if it doesn't apply to everyone, it's not a principle, it's a preference. Popular speech needs no protection- it's popular.

Me? I support free speech. Not as a preference, but as a principle.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
22. you gotta do what you gotta do, but I can explain my reasoning for reaching
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 04:06 AM
Sep 2016

the opposite conclusion, from that event.

And I say this as someone from a Jewish family that had relatives in those camps. And I have friends in Skokie. I remember when this all happened.

But I do believe- as noxious as Nazis and Neo-Nazis are- that defending the principle which allowed them to air their foul views, was defending a bedrock cornerstone of liberty that is the exact antithesis of everything Naziism is about.

By allowing them to speak, the Nazis lost. If a precedent had been established that government could shut down unpopular or offensive speech- that would have been one step down the road to the exact sort of situation those fuckheads want.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
24. "I support free speech. Not as a preference, but as a principle."
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 08:46 AM
Sep 2016

Exactly. If it can be denied to anyone, it can be denied to us.

tritsofme

(17,238 posts)
12. Strange reason to "turn" on them...I thought the ACLU was incredibly brave and courageous
Mon Sep 12, 2016, 09:28 PM
Sep 2016

for standing up for the constitutional rights of those Nazi scumbags in Skokie.

The First Amendment applies to everyone, even Nazi scum. We are incredibly lucky to have the ACLU.

LongtimeAZDem

(4,494 posts)
17. "America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship"
Mon Sep 12, 2016, 11:26 PM
Sep 2016

"You've gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, 'You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours"

- The American President

marybourg

(12,481 posts)
18. If he wishes to speak, fine.
Mon Sep 12, 2016, 11:39 PM
Sep 2016

If he wishes to spend his own money to further his speech, fine. But my money is MY speech and I refuse to put it behind HIS speech which is abhorrent to me. That's My red line .

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
10. If they have to remain 'pure' and can't make decisions on their own...
Mon Sep 12, 2016, 08:34 PM
Sep 2016

...they're no better than a collection of robots.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
21. There are people here who think that it should be illegal to draw 'blasphemous' cartoons.
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 04:03 AM
Sep 2016

1st Amendment threads, in particular, can be downright depressing.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
23. Since the ACLU is very pro-free speech...
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 08:44 AM
Sep 2016

I imagine that a great many here already hate them. For many here and in the general population, free speech only applies to those who agree with them.

 

linuxman

(2,337 posts)
25. DU has never really liked the ACLU
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 08:49 AM
Sep 2016

Not as a whole (or even close to it really). Free speech is messy and uncomfortable. Everyone here claims to be its biggest fan, until it's speech they don't particularly like. It's like it never occurred to them that unpopular speech is the only kind the ACLU ever has to defend.

 

La Lioness Priyanka

(53,866 posts)
28. while i respect the ACLU, i also have often thought some of their stances went against my principles
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 09:04 AM
Sep 2016

and were too broad a reading of the constitution (citizen united?)

people can have nuanced opinion you know.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
31. ?? Been away from DU for awhile, have we?
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 09:36 AM
Sep 2016

1. The ACLU already took a big hit here 7 years ago after that Citizens United bullshit...

2. The ACLU's "Free Snowflake" campaign is damn near three years old, nevermind the fact that Eddie isn't in prison so there's nothing to "free" him from... This "campaign" is just getting revived as a tie-in with the movie being released this week..

3. The ACLU isn't infallible, and has hitched their wagon to indefensible loser cases before (See: al-Awlaki)

FSogol

(45,258 posts)
33. Correct! Everyone is falling for Stone's marketing for his film.
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 09:49 AM
Sep 2016
This "campaign" is just getting revived as a tie-in with the movie being released this week..

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
34. There are many authoritarians among Democrats
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 10:12 AM
Sep 2016

They are all in favor of dissent when Republicans are in power, but when a Democrat is, they are in competition to see who can be the biggest cheerleader. You can see this in the discussion around Obama's drone bombing campaign. If Bush was doing it, they would be screaming from the rafters.

I support the ACLU always, because they stand on principle, because the principle of free speech is most important when the speech is unpopular, despicable or just wrong. I also think Snowden is not the enemy here. Our government is, if not our enemy exactly, certainly not acting in the principles we are alleged to stand for. He should be treated as a whistle-blower, certainly no different than Daniel Ellsberg, but Obama's government has been particularly hard on whistle-blowers.

arthritisR_US

(7,236 posts)
38. That is their right however naive I think they're being but
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 11:35 AM
Sep 2016

I certainly won't turn on them and I venture to guess most others won't either.

PufPuf23

(8,556 posts)
42. I support free speech for all including assholes.
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 11:48 AM
Sep 2016

Better assholes in the open rather than skulking around in the shadows.

ACLU is an American institution of enduring principals.

Snowden is a whistleblower, a hero, and a martyr.

haele

(12,541 posts)
43. Free speech is free speeh. But what is speech? Is it something tangible and attributable?
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 01:00 PM
Sep 2016

Is aggressive influence - coercion or blackmail free speech? Is lying - fraud - free speech? Coercion, blackmail, libel, slander, and misleading speech with the purpose to harm or defraud have legal definitions and are regulated under law.
That's the problem in a nutshell.
Breaking laws and legal contracts, even unjust ones carries a cost, even if it's just a day in court to prove the law or legal contract cannot withstand scrutiny.
While a whistleblower has a right to call attention to illegal or dangerous activities, there's also the disgruntled and equally liable employee who wants to stir shit by "exposing" strategies or activities out of context or picking on a few particular activities to justify bringing down an organization as payback for not getting what s/he wants from it.

I'm not saying Snowden is one or the other when he blew the whistle and exposed confidential material from his employer to the public. He did what he did, whether it was for his stated reasons, or for others, or a mix of the two. I personally have a problem with his eventual flight to Russia, but that's because of my feelings about the state of and respect for information security - especially personal information, not just state information - in Russia. Russia isn't Iceland or Switzerland; there's a geo-political element in Russia that is just as interested in hegemony and is just as fascist as elements in the US are.

He has the right to have his day in court - especially since he is not in the military and not considered extra-constitutional. Who knows, he may get an impartial judge and jury - because I'm sure he will be able to access ACLU lawyers who are willing to make the point that he isn't a shit stirrer, but an actual whistleblower, and deserves protection.
That's what they're there for. To give everyone a chance to actually look at the legal issues behind all aspects in case by case situations, not only popular opinion, social trends, or traditions.
The ability for others to twist a position that ensures fairness under the Constitution for their own benefit is no reason to throw out that position for the people who need it.
(Though I do have some question to the idea that the ability to purchase rights being the same constitutionally as the rights of people in general...)

As to the potential for social ostracism issue that goes along with being a whistleblower, that's part of the risk of whistleblowing.
In history, most heroes - especially whistleblowers and those who seek to fight for the betterment of society at large only become Heroes after they're dead. Being a Hero isn't easy, and requires courage to face the fact one may have to be considered a villain while society comes to terms with what needs to be done. A Hero takes his or her lumps.
The expectation of being lauded a Hero for doing the right thing while still living is for deluded Walter Mitty types or narcissistic fame seekers.

Haele

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