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lindysalsagal

(20,683 posts)
Sun Sep 18, 2016, 05:13 PM Sep 2016

I just finished skimming Gerges' History of Isis, recommended by CNN's Fareed Zakaria

On his show, which I always tape and watch, Fareed declared this book the authoritative source on Isis. It was on the shelf in my town library.

Ok, no way could I wade through the long narrative of the life stories of all the players, their training, attacks, imprisonments, regroupings....it's endless. I don't know how Gerges ever got through it all himself, but his notes start on page 298 and end on 351.


ANYWAY, the quick takeaway is more or less what we've been hearing:

1. Isis required the breakdown of the Iraqi government, courtesy of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Rice, Bolton and all the other well-known neocons. Just lay the blame there and you're on the money. Pottery Barn theory was right: We broke it, we didn't fix it, enter Isis, stage right.

2. It also required the Syrian civil war. All this instability was required for Isis to gain followers to the apocalyptic goal of killing off all global non-muslims and establishing a caliphate a la the year 700AD. Quite appetising, to be sure. Looking forward to it.

3. It also required lots of unemployment, hunger and social abandonment all over the middle east. Yup. Knew that.

4. Blame has to be laid on the eternal death battles between the Sunni and Shia muslim sects, and on their backers: i.e.: Us, Russia and Iran. Nice. Here, the U.S. and we, the semi-informed civilians, fail to appreciate how much sectarian hatred dominates the lives of many middle easterners. They're not done killing, yet. Not even close. We just don't understand killing for god like they do.

5. They also gain steam from the un-resolved isreali-palestine issues.

Of course, many middle eastern civilians detest all this violence and pre-historic yearnings. But they're at the mercy of whoever seems to keep the lights on, today. It's hard to argue with machine guns, grenades, and hand-made bombs. Your kids need food and water and shelter.

6. We're a big part of this, but of course, we don't want to spread that around too much.

Bottom line is Isis won't stop the terrorist incursions on the western world until we reverse the poverty and hopelessness of the 3rd world. Again, no big surprise. Moving muslims around the planet will help a little, but there will always be enough marginalized backers left behind to make our lives miserable.

So, Obama was right not to get us into their ground war: They want us as targets. This feeds their cultish death paradigm. They love shooting at infidels. So, we can all stop berrating Obama for "not fixing syria way back when....." there was no opportunity to fix this mess. There are no threats or punishments that will contain this killing. It's killing because allah wants killing. Death 'cause death is holy. "Killing R Us." Obama has no impact on this. Hillary won't either. No one will. Time, alone, will get the world beyond this, if it ever happens. We might collectively kill the planet before they're done killing each other.

The U.S. bombing raids and missiles and drone attacks have recaptured about 40% of the land Isis has taken. But they'll just go elsewhere until the poverty and hopelessness is reversed and legitimate governments are effectively established. At that point, Isis will lack the air, water, and fuel to gain adherants and they'll drift into obscurity. Regular people would rather work a job, get married, and spend their free time with friends and family, if that's at all possible, than attend jihad training camps and blow themselves up.

Right about now, a blood-thirsty non-sectarian tyrant running Iraq and establishing order sounds pretty good. Anyone know a guy who can do that?

Oh, yeah. He's gone.

15 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I just finished skimming Gerges' History of Isis, recommended by CNN's Fareed Zakaria (Original Post) lindysalsagal Sep 2016 OP
Thank you for the information - I have been researching asiliveandbreathe Sep 2016 #1
Ah, yes. The old god Mithras: I miss that guy. Killed the bull. lindysalsagal Sep 2016 #3
The animated map of the empires is incredible: Never heard of some of them: #9 lindysalsagal Sep 2016 #4
Vox maps underpants Sep 2016 #5
Wonderful animated map link. Thanks! . . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2016 #7
I've found those maps interesting, too. herding cats Sep 2016 #9
That map.....wow!!! dixiegrrrrl Sep 2016 #11
You got it! - "Pay it forward" is my mantra... asiliveandbreathe Sep 2016 #12
the surge was a huge boost to Isis as well MattP Sep 2016 #2
The surge is one of those things that keeps changing long after it ended. Igel Sep 2016 #10
That was the official story, but it's something of a fairytale Chathamization Sep 2016 #15
Great post. K&R. underpants Sep 2016 #6
Gerges' History of Isis - Just added it to my reading list. herding cats Sep 2016 #8
Happy to share. I've learned so much on this site. n/t. lindysalsagal Sep 2016 #13
#1 & 3... Ilsa Sep 2016 #14

asiliveandbreathe

(8,203 posts)
1. Thank you for the information - I have been researching
Sun Sep 18, 2016, 05:22 PM
Sep 2016

the Middle East for some time - this book "Gerges' History of Isis" is now on my list.

Online I found VOX 40 maps helpful with a visual of the how the Middle East and different religions moved and shifted with time....

http://www.vox.com/a/maps-explain-the-middle-east

This War is hundreds of years old..and we are responsible for shaking the hornets nest...

lindysalsagal

(20,683 posts)
3. Ah, yes. The old god Mithras: I miss that guy. Killed the bull.
Sun Sep 18, 2016, 06:13 PM
Sep 2016

Just one of the many gods I don't believe in, including the one that's popular now.

Great maps. Thanks!

lindysalsagal

(20,683 posts)
4. The animated map of the empires is incredible: Never heard of some of them: #9
Sun Sep 18, 2016, 06:21 PM
Sep 2016

Wow! Also, the current map 13, of the sunni-shia divide explains alot: Iran and afghanistan and lebanon are shia. Everything else is sunni, including iraq and saudi arabia.

Thanks.

herding cats

(19,564 posts)
9. I've found those maps interesting, too.
Sun Sep 18, 2016, 08:18 PM
Sep 2016

Glad to see them linked here again. More people should know about them.

Thanks for posting them!

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
11. That map.....wow!!!
Sun Sep 18, 2016, 08:31 PM
Sep 2016

I have been pouring over it for an hour now, it's truly fascinating.

Sending it on, too.

Thanks!!!!

asiliveandbreathe

(8,203 posts)
12. You got it! - "Pay it forward" is my mantra...
Sun Sep 18, 2016, 08:41 PM
Sep 2016

I found it amazing, must say, as I worked my through the maps it felt like...one step forward, two steps back - I was quit taken by the enormous amount of information - and now, one thing is leading to another

The book info I found on-line - "Gerges' History of Isis" - then lead me to the Author - that lead me to his other books....fascinating ..

Be well -

Igel

(35,300 posts)
10. The surge is one of those things that keeps changing long after it ended.
Sun Sep 18, 2016, 08:26 PM
Sep 2016

It was a response to a local problem: local leaders wanted the AQ in Iraq folk gone. They'd gone over the top and needed to go; they were also poking holes in the local power structure. So the surge had a strong local component.

The surge was also a lot of American troops. Without them, the locals were on their backs, hands behind their heads, handcuffed, with knees in the small of their back and a forearm holding their face to the ground. The US troops went through, shattered the initial resistance, and then went back for beef stew and to play poker at their base so the local forces could do the nasty work that was absolutely culturally appropriate and expected but totally against what the US considered legal. If a pocket of resistance developed, US troops; if not, the US would move to the next berg to shatter the Salafist front for medievality.

That's the surge. It fed the Salafist/Shi'ite conflict, not the Sunni/Shi'ite conflict. "Salafist" is a word you should become familiar with. It's many of the Muslims in the rural parts of the area. We call them "Islamists," but another word might be "primitive" (in the sense that there are Xians who follow Primitive Xianity). They strive to achieve the purity and faith of those in the first few generations after Muhammed. They reject a lot of things, and you could consider them to be a funny sort of Muslim Protestants--instead of sola biblia they're sola korani. If it's not in the Qur'aan, screw it; if it's there, do it. They're Sunnis. The Wahhabis were part of this movement back in the late 1700s, but, really, they've moderated since then. Welcome to reality; if you think it was bad before clarity was achieved, it's far worse after.

The local Sunni PTB in Anbar Province were pissed at the Shi'ite for what happened after 2011, not what happened in 2007-08. They still don't like the Salafists.

Chathamization

(1,638 posts)
15. That was the official story, but it's something of a fairytale
Sun Sep 18, 2016, 10:24 PM
Sep 2016

Many in the Iraqi army wanted to work with the Americans when they came in, and there were even large scale demonstrations against the occupation because it wouldn't. Disaffected members of the army were one of the core elements of the insurgency. Though the press framed the insurgency as being mainly al-Qaeda, there was a number of different groups and movements involved, and it wasn't uncommon to read about various insurgent groups fighting with each other (often Salafist groups against other groups).

The so called "awakening" preceded the surge; it seems to have been about the U.S. deciding that it was willing to play ball with and fund some of the militant groups in Iraq. It's framed as the Iraqis having a change of heart, but it seems like it was more the U.S. having a change of heart - some of these militants look like they were ready to work with the Americans from the beginning. Naturally, the Bush administration didn't want to say "we screwed up and now realize that we want to ally with the some of the same people we've been trying to kill for the past few years."

The surge came later and didn't effect Anbar that much - I think there was something like 4,000 U.S. troops added to the province. But again, the narrative that was given was different, since it suited the political goals of the administration.

As for ISIS, it seems likely that what gets called ISIS is actually an umbrella group composed of various militant groups. You actually here some of this in the reporting from time to time, when they mention that some of the major players are army officers. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the people we are thinking of as ISIS are just some reconstituted awakening groups (the Baghdad government tried to disband them), not particularly interested in ISIS ideology but happy to take guns and money from them in exchange for a nominal commitment (maybe not completely different from their arrangement with the U.S.).

herding cats

(19,564 posts)
8. Gerges' History of Isis - Just added it to my reading list.
Sun Sep 18, 2016, 08:17 PM
Sep 2016

I've heard of it before, but your synopsis makes me think it's something I need to read now, rather than want to read at some point.

Thank you for the post! It is appreciated.

Ilsa

(61,695 posts)
14. #1 & 3...
Sun Sep 18, 2016, 10:19 PM
Sep 2016

Paul Bremmer was sent to Iraq to fire all of the Sunnis in Govt, even if they weren't tied to Saddam. Then Bremmer took apart the social safety net, pensions, etc. Iraq would be a field test for GOP grand libertarian plans.

Men out of work, no govt assistance to help feed families, etc. led to idle hands creating a counter-force manipulated into extremism.

This was a summary I heard on Thom Hartmann Show. I think it fits in with your OP.

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