General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDoes anyone understand the idea of pressure cooker bombs?
I don't quite get how the pressure cooker helps. If anything, a tight fitting pot would seem to dampen the blast. The homemade explosives aren't that powerful, are they? Just wondering if anyone else understands the "science" behind this. I don't really want to go searching around online for this.
anoNY42
(670 posts)the Anarchists Cookbook or Inspire Magazine?
I think it has something to do with the fact that if you just used a normal metal container with a lid, then the blast would mostly go out the lid since that would be a weak spot. If you use something with a very strong lid (like a pressure cooker), then the blast would probably go equally in all directions.
Just spit-balling though, because I don't want the NSA to see my googling...
sarisataka
(18,792 posts)The more pressure you can develop, the larger the explosion once that pressure gets released. The idea behind using a pressure cooker is that it is extremely tough and seals well so it can develop a massive amount of pressure before it overcomes the strength of the container.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)-- force is needed to rupture the container, which could otherwise go into the explosion.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)It's physics. Look it up.
ProfessorGAC
(65,227 posts)The explosives are likely not ultra high velocity. Might be something as simple as gunpowder.
So, these explosive release a lot of gasses, but relatively slowly (compared to the things used for quarrying or in military ordinance.)
Because the velocity is slow, and because the pressure goes down as the volume increases (as the zone of the expanding gas gets bigger), the pressure wave gets very slow very fast.
Also, because the detonation rate (or conflagration rate for gunpowder) is quite slow, the gasses are being released over time as the "bubble" is already expanding.
The net results is that by the time all the material has "burned", the pressure bubble has dissipated to a fairly low speed, fairly low pressure event. Try taking the gunpowder out of a model rocket motor, putting in a pile and lighting it with a fuse. Pretty hot little flame, but no detonation at all.
By containing the combustion, all the reactants have time to completely become gas, so the pressure it all released at one instant when the container fails.
It's not about how much force it takes to shatter the container. It's about how much force it released all at once.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)or have no effect except as a projectile.
And a weak explosive must be titrated enough so that it doesn't fizzle out.
I guess my point is there's probably a just right amount of low level explosive where the pressure cooker helps.
Too little and the explosion doesn't breach the container.
Too much and the container dampens the blast somewhat or provides no benefit.
Just right, and the pressure builds up enough to create a good blast once the container breaks.
I guess at some point, one of these terrorists must have done some tests to get just the right amount of explosives needed, using several cookers in the process.
NickB79
(19,274 posts)If you take a deer rifle with a 26" barrel and start cutting off the barrel inch by inch, you start to see your velocity drop precipitously. A barrel 6-8" shorter can reduce bullet velocity by hundreds of feet per second, because you need as long a barrel as you can manage to burn all the powder in the cartridge. A complete burn produces maximum pressure and gas volume to expel the bullet. Too short a barrel, and some of your gunpowder is actually spraying out of the muzzle before it's even had a chance to burn up yet.
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Experiment 1:
1. Inflate a balloon.
2. Now, pop the balloon with a pin.
Experiment 2:
Repeat Experiment 1, but without the balloon.
left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)As a kid, we made home made root beer without using a balloon.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Ah, you are from the "pop belt".....
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)why Floridians (esp. old Cracker families) used "Coke" generically. "Soda" is for Central and South Florida -- more of the big retirement communities.
I suspect "Coke" is used in the Southeast due to Coca-Cola being headquartered in Atlanta. (R.C.was HQ'ed in Columbus, Ga.)
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)lapfog_1
(29,227 posts)If you have some leftover firecrackers...
Take one and split it open vertically... lite the fuse.
Now take one and simply lite the fuse...
The paper container causes the powder to burn and release the gas from the chemical reaction until the gas breaks the container (paper wrapping) causing an explosive force.
With the paper split open, gas escapes over a longer period of time... no explosion.
Same idea with a pressure cooker.
However, you are correct that if an insufficient amount of reactants are used, the pressure cooker (or any sealed container) would completely contain the "explosion" (reaction)... and no damage would result... however if enough reactant is used to split the pressure cooker... that will cause a much bigger instant release of gas from the reaction thus a much more forceful explosion.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)So it actually would take some calibration, it doesn't automatically make some explosives into a powerful bomb
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)cookers use screw down bolts to seal the container.
Home canning pressure cooker.....Home canning cooker
Presto 3 quart pressure for preparing meals ....
Presto cooker
TexasProgresive
(12,159 posts)If the reaction is not contained what you get is a flash, maybe some fire but no real bang. This is the principle of most munitions and bombs. In guns the explosion is contained with one weak spot; the projectile. So the force of the blast drives the bullet through the bore.
A pressure cooker is an ideal container, relatively cheap and available, with a locking lid. Oh and I suppose the small vent can be used as a conduit for wires.
longship
(40,416 posts)One normal. Then dip one in epoxy, leaving the fuse normal. Let the epoxy harden.
First, light the fuse of the normal firecracker and let it blow up.
Then light the epoxied firecracker -- you'd better get way back.
Compare. I guarantee that the epoxied one will be a lot louder and more destructive.
Physics 101.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)This is a "dry ice bomb". A piece of "dry ice" (solid CO2) is put into a plastic soda bottle (with some water to promote sublimation of the dry ice from solid to gas), and the cap screwed back onto the bottle:
Now, if you just take a piece of dry ice and put it in water, the dry ice turns back into gaseous CO2, and nothing happens other than some bubbling.
If you have something which is going to release gas slowly, then you don't get an "explosion" without a pressure vessel to contain that gas until the pressure builds up to the point where the pressure vessel fails dramatically.
If you just put a piece of dry ice into a soda bottle, and don't seal it up, the only thing that is going to happen is that you'll get some bubbles and some condensation (the white "smoky" like stuff you get from putting dry ice in water).
"High explosives" - substances like plastic explosive - are hard to obtain. "High explosives" will burn so fast (because at a molecular level they contain both the fuel and oxidizer in a single unit), that they create a pressure wave all on their own. Things like gunpowder and other less powerful substances are easy to obtain or make.
But if you take some gunpowder and light it on fire, it just burns really fast. It liberates a lot of gas, but doesn't "explode".
If you take that gunpowder and seal it into something that will hold a lot of pressure, then the gunpowder is going to burn, that gas pressure is going to build up, and the vessel will eventually fail violently.
Then, you can get creative with the vessel in order to create shrapnel - things which will fly out from the explosion in order to do more damage.
That's why one type of grenade looks like this:
When it fails, it will break along those seams, and send pieces of metal flying in all directions.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)but I guess you're saying the pressure cooker can maybe convert a weaker explosive into a stronger one...
Calculating
(2,957 posts)Getting access high explosives like C4 and TNT can be quite tricky. Lower power explosives such as flash powder and black powder are readily made and available though.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The gunpowder in a pressure cooker bomb is doing the same thing that the dry ice is doing in a dry ice bomb - creating a lot of gas really quick.
You can make a bomb out of match heads and a tennis ball (there are youtube videos of those too, of course). That seems to be the kind of thing that blew someone's foot to pieces in NYC a few weeks back.
Doing that sort of thing is dangerous, since they can strike off one another by friction while you are assembling it.
But - as a class - its the same thing as blowing up a balloon with your own breath until it pops. Without the balloon to hold the pressure up to the point where it pops, your breath doesn't go "bang" when you exhale.
It's also the same thing with pipe bombs - filling a metal pipe with gunpowder and then capping it or crimping it at both ends. Again, the gunpowder grains can ignite by friction during assembly, which is why there are a lot of blind one-armed pipe bomb makers.
The hazards of making pipe bombs are what make pressure cookers so attractive.
Calculating
(2,957 posts)Is it if they get caught in the pipe threads or something? Seems like one could just drill a hole in the assembled pipe bomb and slowly funnel in the grains to avoid that.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)According to Wikipedia "Pipe bombs can fail to explode if the gas pressure buildup is too slow, resulting in bleed-out through the detonator ignition hole. Insufficiently tight threading can also bleed gas pressure through the threads faster than the chemical reaction pressure can rise."
So I would imagine that the hole for the detonator fuse, wires, what-have-you, is preferably as small as possible.
My actual experience building pipe bombs is zero, so there's that.
But a fun fact of growing up in Delaware is that, at some point, every elementary school class takes a field trip to the original DuPont gunpowder mills and, if they are paying attention, learns how to make gunpowder.
A "bomb with a hole in it" is otherwise known as a "rocket engine".
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Last edited Thu Sep 22, 2016, 06:35 PM - Edit history (1)
This is simplified, but IMHO, the cool thing about explosives.
If you think about what it takes to make "something burn rapidly", you need two things: (a) the thing that burns, and (b) the thing that supplies oxygen to the thing that is burning.
In gunpowder, the "thing that burns" is carbon, and the the "thing that supplies oxygen" is potassium nitrate (KNO3). It turns out that at a convenient temperature, the potassium nitrate lets go of that oxygen very easily. So if you have a fine composition involving carbon (and some sulfur) and potassium nitrate, once you get it burning it sort of "burns by itself" since the heated nitrate will release oxygen to the carbon and sulfur, which will get hotter, and it goes very quickly.
The magic is in getting them mixed well in order to get a high speed of ignition and burn.
In "high explosives" you have molecules in which part of the molecule is the oxidizer and another part of the molecule is the fuel.
This is TNT:
Do you see that Carbon atom up there with the three hydrogen atoms? There are additional carbon atoms (not shown) at the corners of the ring. And do you see those Nitrogen atoms hanging onto those lovely big oxygen atoms?
Just like in gunpowder, you have a bunch of carbon sitting around, and some oxygen which is bound to nitrogen.
That Carbon would LOVE to get rid of those hydrogens, hook up with the oxygens, and make carbon monoxide. Meanwhile, the hydrogens would like to get together with a couple of oxygens of their own and make water.
The nitrogens, on the other hand, would prefer to just couple off on their own together.
It's like a miniature soap opera of unrequited love going in around that toluene ring (in which each of those corners of the ring is also a carbon atom).
All they need to do is to be given a little push for everyone to pick up the partner they want, and one part of the molecule supplies the fuel, while other parts of the molecule supply the oxygen.
It's the same thing that goes on in gunpowder, but unlike gunpowder, where you have various chemical components doing different parts of the work, high explosive molecules are tiny machines which reproduce that fuel/oxidizer concept at the molecular level. They are just itching to rip themselves apart, given the correct "push" to do so.
As you might imagine, an unstable molecule is going to rip itself apart faster than little bits of carbon will light on fire from nearby little bits of nitrate in the gunpowder. So when it goes, it goes at tremendous speed.
Calculating
(2,957 posts)Are you a chemistry major or something?
What role does the sulfur play in blackpowder/flash powder mixes? Is it just a catalyst or what?
Personally I've toyed with the idea of making homemade fireworks and such, but the stories of people blowing their hands/legs/etc off tend to spook me lol. I've only ever made small amounts of thermite and flash powder.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Honestly, as I said, they teach this to kids in Delaware, because the DuPont company played such an important role in the history of the state.
These are the old DuPont powder mills along the Brandywine River in Wilmington:
That's the mill race in the foreground, and the mills are powered by those wheels, to grind the powder. Notice that the mill houses are high stone in the back, and have a sloping wood roof facing toward the river (on the other side of the mill houses).
Here's another view:
They are built that way so that each one works a limited quantity. If one of them blows, speaking of pressure vessels, it explodes outward toward the river, and not toward the other mill houses or the rest of the plant (situated on the bank side across the mill race) - or, more importantly, toward E.I. DuPont's house, which is also situated just uphill from the plant.
But, seriously, groups of children in Delaware are regularly taken there and shown how to make and test blasting powder:
They have a small scale setup in one of the mill houses, and it's great to watch the kids jump when they set it off every half hour or so.
Sulfur has a low melting point and a lower ignition temperature than charcoal, so it brings down the ignition temperature of the mix.
You can make gunpowder without it, but it is a lot harder to light.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)That is, making gun powder ( first "black powder," then modern nitro-cellulose propellant ("smokeless" powder). Approx. 215 years old.
The second oldest by this standard? Remington Arms, 200 years old this year.
One side of the structures DuPont made had very flimsy walls which were easy to replace when the "occasional" accident occurred and blew out the wall, along with the workers. Black powder, though less powerful than modern propellants, is far less stable, and sensitive to both heat and impact.
If I remember correctly, black powder explosions readily follow the path of least resistance, whereas TNT, etc. has an explosion which can radiate significantly in all directions. The Boston bomber's devices generally upwards, but left the sidewalk and its bed underneath with superficial damage. The great danger was shrapnel. Other immediate clues than the murderers used stripped away firecrackers were the "sulfurous" smell many reported, and the billowing white clouds.
Thank goodness the bombs were not fashioned with modern explosives.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)... they had a reputation for being fanatical about safety.
It didn't matter how good a chemist you were, if you were in the lab and not wearing goggles, you were out of a job.
Calculating
(2,957 posts)Take easily made flash powder for example. If you just pour a small pile and light it on fire it does nothing remotely explosive. It will just burn quickly producing smoke and bright white light. If you were to take said flash powder and fill a pressure cooker with it then you end up with some entirely more dangerous. The confinement causes a build up of pressure and also causes the flash powder to burn much more rapidly. The pressure will then rupture the vessel sending shards of metal shrapnel all over the place.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)ileus
(15,396 posts)rickford66
(5,528 posts)He said he had them buried around his property and could remotely set them off. Haven't seen him since and glad of it.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)LastLiberal in PalmSprings
(12,599 posts)You've got a moist material surrounded by a hot shell. Heat the popcorn kernel to a certain temperature and the moisture expands enough to overcome the resistance of the shell. Pop! The trick to manufacturing good popcorn is to develop a type of corn where all of the kernels have virtually the same shell strength. Orville Reddenbacker (sp??) has this down to a science -- there are rarely any unpopped kernels left.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)librechik
(30,677 posts)MowCowWhoHow III
(2,103 posts)If you have access to high explosives then a pressure cooker or similar has a lot less utility.