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Shemp Howard

(889 posts)
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 10:40 PM Dec 2016

Why I am taking a break from DU.

I have posted parts of this post elsewhere. I've now decided to put it all together in one place. Apologies to those who have seen it elsewhere.

One reason I joined DU is that it's a progressive site. The word "progressive" means many things to me. One thing it means, to me, is kindness. Not weakness, but kindness; trying to see the best in people.

This includes the way I see most people who voted for Trump. There are certainly evil people who voted for Trump. I have no sympathy for those people.

But there are also many stupid people who voted for Trump. It is simply wrong, morally, to treat all these stupid people as if they were evil.

As an example, good friend of mine went from working for Hillary in the 2008 primaries to voting for Trump in 2016. Why the change? He lost his job. I do not consider my friend evil. But perhaps he's stupid for falling for Trump's empty slogans.

Unfortunately, post after post here on DU treats all Trump voters as evil beings. No exceptions. They are all very horrible people who deserve to have very horrible things happen to them.

As a progressive, this pains me. Stupid does not equal evil in my book. It just doesn't. I would hope to help educate these stupid people. I do not wish that bad things would happen to them.

But as of now I seem to be in the minority here. So I think I need to take a little break. Perhaps when things settle down a bit, I'll be back.

Yes, I know that with less than 1000 posts, I'm not a key player here. I won't be missed. And yes, I won't let the door hit me on the way out.

Best wishes to you all. Stay strong, and stay vigilant. Going forward, DU will be part of what (hopefully) puts the brakes on Trump.

91 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Why I am taking a break from DU. (Original Post) Shemp Howard Dec 2016 OP
The only thing I know is that those who voted for trump were well aware of his racist and sexist still_one Dec 2016 #1
This message was self-deleted by its author CountAllVotes Dec 2016 #4
There are a lot of people here... potone Dec 2016 #2
+1. And I'd offer that it goes further to the fault of the media not even having intelligent policy JudyM Dec 2016 #7
Very well said! Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #11
Enjoy your break, Shemp True Dough Dec 2016 #19
Thank you for the kind words. (nt) Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #38
It doesn't necessarily make them stupid; aversion to both candidates lowered the prioritization JudyM Dec 2016 #67
I largely agree with your post. ... spin Dec 2016 #55
I am beyond weary of excusing the racism & misogyny of Trump voters as "they don't know any better" Maru Kitteh Dec 2016 #3
This message was self-deleted by its author CountAllVotes Dec 2016 #5
That is a classic straw man argument. Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #6
They may not be stupid or evil EffieBlack Dec 2016 #10
+1000 kairos12 Dec 2016 #14
I must disagree. Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #20
gawd, you'd have to be DUMBER THAN FUCK not to have noticed Trumps's racism and misogyny Skittles Dec 2016 #29
I'd normally like to have a conversation with you about this... Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #31
voting for a racist / misogynist is excusable Skittles Dec 2016 #53
I was pulled into this thread because of your post... herding cats Dec 2016 #58
they have also bdamomma Dec 2016 #72
THANK YOU Skittles Dec 2016 #81
Either America is the dumbest fucking country on Earth Calculating Dec 2016 #74
Do you think Fox News reported racism? OnionPatch Dec 2016 #75
IF YOU WATCH ONLY FOX NEWS YOU ARE DUMBER THAN FUCK Skittles Dec 2016 #82
Yes, some people are dumb as fuck OnionPatch Dec 2016 #87
pleading the 5th Skittles Dec 2016 #91
So which will turn it around? Hate or education? HopeAgain Dec 2016 #78
No good jobs and they're afraid...well, I'm afraid of deep cuts to Social Security benefits and SammyWinstonJack Dec 2016 #84
It should never be normalized or lightly excused. Or next will be a hate criminal was stupid and lunasun Dec 2016 #24
I have to totally agree with the post and add one thing.... usedtobedemgurl Dec 2016 #83
... Different Drummer Dec 2016 #89
Funny, cuz I'm thinking of taking a break due to the nonsensical idea being pushed here Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2016 #8
THIS EffieBlack Dec 2016 #12
I sort of agree with you. Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #15
Personally, I'm afraid the last thing most Trump voters want to be is educated. Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2016 #22
+1,000,000. Thank you. (nt) Paladin Dec 2016 #64
+1000000! SammyWinstonJack Dec 2016 #86
It's human nature to other those who don't belong to our group mythology Dec 2016 #9
We don't have to assume every Trump voter is an open racist or sexist. But they joined forces with EffieBlack Dec 2016 #13
Since you are willing to excuse people who voted for a Bigot. maybe you should do the same for those JI7 Dec 2016 #16
No argument from me there. Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #21
IIRC, according to the stats, most who voted for Trump were well off financially. Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2016 #23
That's a good point. Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #27
Plenty of well intentioned Germans took thier country down . It's only reasonable to not want lunasun Dec 2016 #30
True. Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #34
You may not be in the minority. HassleCat Dec 2016 #17
Can't "puts the brakes on (DRUMPF)" by loving & being kind to him and his. UTUSN Dec 2016 #18
Stupid doesn't equal evil, but stupid does equal stupid. Iggo Dec 2016 #25
Fix stupid. Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #28
You. Iggo Dec 2016 #79
While I appreciate your sentiments, when we start losing our civil liberties... RiverStone Dec 2016 #26
Hmm hibbing Dec 2016 #32
LOL, odd isn't it? Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #36
Who is Shemp Howard? kentuck Dec 2016 #39
My favorite comedian of all time, of course.(nt) Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #42
The fourth stooge from The Three Stooges. lapucelle Dec 2016 #76
Correct. Different Drummer Dec 2016 #90
Equanimity is a progressive trait, being able to shift focus and observe the various facets of a Donkees Dec 2016 #59
GOP is the ,,,, Cryptoad Dec 2016 #33
Buh bye... billh58 Dec 2016 #35
Stupid is as stupid does. hay rick Dec 2016 #37
I agree with you (surprise). Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #40
Maybe not evil. BlueStater Dec 2016 #41
unfortunately liberals don't realize 'stupid' means talk radio-educated certainot Dec 2016 #43
Ignorant and uninformed is not the same thing as stupid. tblue37 Dec 2016 #44
I don't see people that voted for trump as evil just Wiseman32218 Dec 2016 #45
There is a multitude of deplorables who take pride in their ignorance. oasis Dec 2016 #46
So the stupid people who voted for trump elmac Dec 2016 #47
It's not my place to determine if they are evil or stupid... It's just my place to say "Fuck 'em" world wide wally Dec 2016 #48
Imagine, if you will... Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #49
They would most likely prefer to see me dead, so I say "Fuck 'en" world wide wally Dec 2016 #52
Losing your job does not mean racism and sexism are ok. Coventina Dec 2016 #50
A question for you. Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #54
Your friend did something evil, but that doesn't automatically mean he is evil Coventina Dec 2016 #56
They are to stupid to be evil MFM008 Dec 2016 #51
I've actually worked at the frontlines trying to flip many of these voters. herding cats Dec 2016 #57
Come back around mid-summer FarCenter Dec 2016 #60
I see countless posts from DUers about all the health problems they're having since the election. cwydro Dec 2016 #61
You are probably in the majority here FarCenter Dec 2016 #62
Hmm, you may have a point there. cwydro Dec 2016 #71
Even Hillary called for reaching out to the half of Trump supporters that aren't deplorable. aidbo Dec 2016 #63
Thank you for stepping aside. Paladin Dec 2016 #65
Honest question... are you a minority? taught_me_patience Dec 2016 #66
I have glbtq, undocumented, and Muslim fiends. DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2016 #68
Fuck that noise moda253 Dec 2016 #69
What would you call mercuryblues Dec 2016 #70
Nope Calculating Dec 2016 #73
I don't believe you Generator Dec 2016 #77
There seem to be a handful of you here, much like Susan Sarandon, who feel that a Trump admin... Tarheel_Dem Dec 2016 #80
LOL! Give it a little while. When you realize just how much death and destruction those "nice Squinch Dec 2016 #85
Your friend had plenty liquid diamond Dec 2016 #88

Response to still_one (Reply #1)

potone

(1,701 posts)
2. There are a lot of people here...
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 10:50 PM
Dec 2016

who haven't yet come to terms with Hillary's loss, and are angry about it. I agree with you that not all Trump voters are evil; I don't even think that all of them are stupid. Many of them are simply ignorant, and many, such as your friend, voted out of anger and frustration at the seeming indifference of the leadership of both political parties to the struggles and anxieties of most people in this country. So a break is probably a good idea, but don't go away permanently. We need voices like yours, or this site will just become a single-minded echo zone.

JudyM

(28,938 posts)
7. +1. And I'd offer that it goes further to the fault of the media not even having intelligent policy
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:16 PM
Dec 2016

discussion. A lot of those rust belt workers simply don't have a lot of free time to spend reading more than a handful of articles beyond the headlines.

I don't think they're necessarily racist and sexist (as a smaller percentage of his base clearly is), those issues are simply not at the top of their survival-oriented concerns. They might even feel that there's excessive snowflakeness about political correctness because they themselves are not ill-intentioned toward those demographics. The point is that jobs are important, and trump gave the impression that he was going to create jobs, period. All reports suggest that most of these people only half-listened to the racist, sexist stuff he said because they see him as a lot of self-puffing hot air, so they didn't personally appreciate the gravity of the risk he poses, because they think he's a clown who's a good businessman.

His voters were a lot more heterogeneous than we give them credit for being.

Shemp Howard

(889 posts)
11. Very well said!
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:25 PM
Dec 2016

"All reports suggest that most of these people only half-listened to the racist, sexist stuff he said..."

That's a key point. I wish I would have included it in my original post! Many people who voted for Trump heard from him only what they wanted to hear. That does not make them evil. It just makes them stupid...which was my central point all along.

True Dough

(16,868 posts)
19. Enjoy your break, Shemp
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:41 PM
Dec 2016

but don't stay away too long. I agree with your views and those expressed by JudyM and Potone. There are too few of us who refuse to vilify all Trump supporters. Any one of them who expresses bigotry or misogyny is worthy of condemnation, but we need to give a second chance to the frustrated ones who will inevitably see the error of their ways as Drumpf and his administration makes one horrible decision after another. They'll be back. They will.

JudyM

(28,938 posts)
67. It doesn't necessarily make them stupid; aversion to both candidates lowered the prioritization
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 10:12 AM
Dec 2016

of digging in (particularly in the face of a struggling lifestyle). The media wasn't serving up meaningful differentiation on issues! So it was a little of who do you like/dislike more, and a little of what's in it for me?

IMO this is why we lost those states, as well, and had a better chance there with Sanders, who was forcing more attention onto issues, and specifically the bread and butter issues that matter to those voters. He had consistently high trust ratings, as well... but water under the bridge! Just my view that deeming them racist and/or stupid seems reductivist to me.

I hope you come back soon!

spin

(17,493 posts)
55. I largely agree with your post. ...
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 02:45 AM
Dec 2016

I don't consider people who hold different political views from mine to be either evil or stupid.

A person's political views are often based on the political views of their parents and their own life experiences.

When I talk politics with others I often avoid arguing with them as that is futile but I do my best to understand why they feel the way they do. For example if I am talking to a gun owner who has a significant amount of money invested in his gun collection and owns semiautomatic firearms, I can understand his reluctance to vote for a candidate who wants to see a new Federal Assault Weapons Ban enacted. If I am talking to a fundamentalist Christian who believes the Bible is the liberal word of God then I can understand why he votes for people who he see as conservative Christians. When I am talking to a conservative who believes in a strict interpretation of the Constitution then I can see why he votes for a candidate who promises to nominate only conservative justices for the Supreme Court. When I talk to a liberal individual who favors equality for all races and sexual orientations then I understand why he votes for progressive candidates. If I talk to a person who is concerned about global warming I realize that it's unlikely that he will vote for most Republicans.

However one thing I have commonly found while talking with others that there is a large amount of frustration with those we elect and send to Washington DC to represent us. Nothing ever seems to change no matter who we elect and many feel that big money owns those we elect and in effect is running our nation for their profit.

The level of discontent if not anger has risen to the level that helps to explain why both Betnie and Trump did so well. Far too many people are sick and tired of our political establishment and both major parties.

If our two parties wish to survive much longer it might be wise for both to start figuring out issues they can work together on which would help improve life for all in our nation. Otherwise we may find the "Kick all the bums out" movement finally gathering steam and many long term politicians out of a job. Unfortunately that would mean our nation would lose a lot of valuable experience at the highest levels of government.

Maru Kitteh

(28,299 posts)
3. I am beyond weary of excusing the racism & misogyny of Trump voters as "they don't know any better"
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 10:55 PM
Dec 2016

They DO. Some of them may be stupid, but they are perfectly aware of their bigotry and they choose to remain as they are. I know these people. They're in my family. They went to my high school. They get no quarter from me.

I respect your decision to take a break from DU but immorality to me is excusing the behavior of bigots, racists and misogynists. I hope we never "settle down" and normalize the behavior of those people. Ever.





Response to Maru Kitteh (Reply #3)

Shemp Howard

(889 posts)
6. That is a classic straw man argument.
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:02 PM
Dec 2016

I never said that we should "settle down and normalize the behavior of those people." I said that we should treat the majority of them as stupid, and not as evil.

And I said we should try to educate those people. I said nothing about "settling down" and accepting their views.

 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
10. They may not be stupid or evil
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:24 PM
Dec 2016

But they were fully aware of Trump's racism and sexism, etc., and still chose to vote for him. They knew they were aligning themselves with the KKK, Aryan Nation and Nazis, yet they felt that whatever interest they felt that Trump advanced outweighed MY interests and those of millions of minorities who will be damaged by a Trump presidency.

They said, "Yes, I know he's a racist, misogynist, anti-Muslim demagogue, but I don't care . . ."

It will be a long while before I manage to muster up any sympathy whatsoever for those people. To paraphrase Vito Corleone, "this, I cannot forgive."

Shemp Howard

(889 posts)
20. I must disagree.
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:44 PM
Dec 2016

"But they were fully aware of Trump's racism and sexism, etc., and still chose to vote for him."

I just don't agree with that. As I noted in an earlier post, many Trump voters only heard from Trump what they wanted to hear. It is somewhat like people who are in love. They only see good in their partner.

I've talked to many Trump supporters of my acquaintance. Yes, some voted for Trump for racist reasons. But many more went for Trump out of desperation. I'm from a rust-belt state, and many of my middle-aged friends are desperate. There are no good jobs, and they are afraid. So they followed the Pied Piper.

Those Trump voters are not evil, or racist. They just made a bad choice in 2016.

Skittles

(152,851 posts)
29. gawd, you'd have to be DUMBER THAN FUCK not to have noticed Trumps's racism and misogyny
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:14 AM
Dec 2016

FUCK these voters - they voted to put Trump - DONALD FUCKING TRUMP - a man with EXTREME MENTAL ISSUES - into the PRESIDENCY OF THE UNITED STATES

while you're taking time off, figure out HOW TO STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR THEM

THEY HAVE DISGRACED AMERICA

Shemp Howard

(889 posts)
31. I'd normally like to have a conversation with you about this...
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:21 AM
Dec 2016

...as I often learn new things from others, and get new perspectives. But I'm in no mood to trade f-bombs, or be the target of f-bombs. I've learned early on that such conversations go nowhere. So I'll pass, if you please.

herding cats

(19,514 posts)
58. I was pulled into this thread because of your post...
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 03:01 AM
Dec 2016

I just want to say, I approve of your message!

They have disgraced America, and themselves!

bdamomma

(63,249 posts)
72. they have also
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:09 PM
Dec 2016

disgraced the office of the President, the country and our standing in the world. There is enough blame to go around, but we have to MOVE on and get this man/child out of the way. He will cause a lot of trouble, and I don't even want to think about him messing around with North Korea bad enough Putin is laughing all the way to the bank.

Calculating

(2,950 posts)
74. Either America is the dumbest fucking country on Earth
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:36 PM
Dec 2016

Or a significant amount of them actually agreed with what Trump stands for. Our country has LITERALLY been disgraced forever with this election. This is WAY WORSE than GWB. Trump might possibly be insane, is filling our government with science deniers, and is one of the least presidential behaving presidents we've ever had.

OnionPatch

(6,169 posts)
75. Do you think Fox News reported racism?
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 03:40 PM
Dec 2016

Because if you watch only Fox News you may not have actually seen his racist remarks or they would have been explained away. If you were already a fairly non-political person you probably wouldn't be paying the kind of 24/7 attention that we do to politics so you probably didn't get much helpful information and maybe just took your husband's or parent's word for it that Trump was the best candidate.

Plenty of racists voted for Trump, yes. But I think there are reasons some people voted Trump other than blatant racism, stupidity and complacency being high on the list.

Skittles

(152,851 posts)
82. IF YOU WATCH ONLY FOX NEWS YOU ARE DUMBER THAN FUCK
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 04:51 PM
Dec 2016

INTENTIONALLY IGNORANT

and you either ARE RACIST or you ENDORSE RACISM - TAKE YOUR PICK



OnionPatch

(6,169 posts)
87. Yes, some people are dumb as fuck
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 05:51 PM
Dec 2016

and some are intellectually lazy but it doesn't necessarily mean they are racists. A cousin of mine is like that and she had never seen any of the videos of white supremacists cheering on Trump because when she gets on the internet, she's only there for the kittens and puppies. She didn't vote but if her father had still been alive she'd have gone to the polls and voted for whoever he told her to vote for.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
78. So which will turn it around? Hate or education?
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 03:52 PM
Dec 2016

Can the Democratic party pick up the pieces and find a way to change attitudes without becoming one of them?

SammyWinstonJack

(44,127 posts)
84. No good jobs and they're afraid...well, I'm afraid of deep cuts to Social Security benefits and
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 05:47 PM
Dec 2016

Medicare vouchers and so should your middle age friends, be. Why did they think a billionaire business man would be their salvation. LOL.

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
24. It should never be normalized or lightly excused. Or next will be a hate criminal was stupid and
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:56 PM
Dec 2016

just frustrated about a job so let the person back on the streets. Extreme example ? Yes but so is who these voters put in power and if they choose to willing block out trump's bigotry (or their own) to vote for trump ,that is no excuse.
The bad economy was used against Jews in Nazi Germany . Plenty Germans accepted the bigotry and were lulled by work projects like the Autobahn

usedtobedemgurl

(1,050 posts)
83. I have to totally agree with the post and add one thing....
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 05:15 PM
Dec 2016

They knew who they were voting for and decided to vote for what they perceived to be their own self interests. They not only mistakenly thought they were voting for themselves, but they knew they were voting against so many of our citizens including people of color, women, Muslims, etc....Without a doubt, some of the people they voted against were in their family but they did not care.

And now I see articles where they did not believe Trump when he said he would get rid of Obamacare and these folks are scared because now it seems they screwed themselves over despite the fact that they always touted they loved Trump because he says what he means and he means what he says.

I have Obamacare and am female. I did not have health insurance until Obamacare came along. I have a close friend who makes maybe $75/month at flea market stalls and is living off the last bit of money from an inheritance. He swears to me he put in the proper numbers and that Obamacare costs too much. Yeah, right. I know his financial situation and I know he would be getting medicare and that it is free. He is a staunch Republican and posted on FB that he was not voting. I did not try to change his mind because I know who he is stupid enough to vote for.

These people voted against me on two counts. They wanted my insurance gone (but not theirs) and I am female and they have created a very hostile environment for my sex.

Some people will die without Obamacare and they will be the lucky ones. All of the climate scientists claim that we are at or very near the tipping point. Not just being stupid but voting out of spite, to show those liberal, people voted to possibly end our planet. More species will go extinct. Reindeer are dying in droves because of climate change. Our planet is dying and you cannot fix the type of stupid who vote for the extinction of every living creature on this planet.

They listen to talk radio and they will not listen to a single thing you have to say because they are brain washed. There is no talking to them and they believe we are stupid for listening to what are actually the facts. They believe they have a strong hold on every fact out there and that we are the ones who cannot be reasoned with. They believe we are stupid and they laugh at us for trying to save the planet and them along with it.

The ballot should have read "Hillary Clinton" or "End of Planet Earth" because that is exactly what was at stake. There are predictions out there that within our foreseeable future earth will have ended. The titanic is sinking and their band plays on.

Different Drummer

(7,427 posts)
89. ...
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 06:19 PM
Dec 2016
They listen to talk radio and they will not listen to a single thing you have to say because they are brain washed. There is no talking to them and they believe we are stupid for listening to what are actually the facts. They believe they have a strong hold on every fact out there and that we are the ones who cannot be reasoned with. They believe we are stupid and they laugh at us for trying to save the planet and them along with it.


This.

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,749 posts)
8. Funny, cuz I'm thinking of taking a break due to the nonsensical idea being pushed here
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:23 PM
Dec 2016

by so many that we need to "listen to" the Trump voters and change our message to appeal to them.

No, we don't. I already have listened to them. I know what they think. And so do most DUers. I loved my grandparents, but I found it very difficult from an early age to respect them. They were closed-minded, uneducated, fundamentalist, superstitious, homophobic, bigoted, racist, and in my grandfather's case a bully. They had four children. My mom was the only one to truly reject that "heritage." The other three children, their spouses, and their children are all RWers.

The only way the Democratic party would have won any of their votes would have been to indulge the prejudices and ignorance of these people. And if the Democratic party had done that, they would have lost my mom and dad, most of my siblings, my husband and millions and millions of progressive Democrats.

I don't believe many DUers actually believe every single Trump voter is evil. What we do believe is that they have elevated to the highest office in the land, and world, a crass, homophobic, misogynistic, lying, cheating, intemperate, business-bankrupting, ill-prepared, unstatesmanlike, boor, and that they must take responsibility for that vote.

There is no question that a lot of suffering and misery will befall countless Americans. A wish for those responsible for electing such an ill-suited, war-mongering, benefits-slashing cretin to shoulder a large share of that guaranteed suffering and misery does not seem at all unfair or unreasonable to me.

Shemp Howard

(889 posts)
15. I sort of agree with you.
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:33 PM
Dec 2016

We do not need to listen to Trump voters, or in any way try to "learn" from them.

But as I have said before, we also need to understand that most Trump voters are misguided (or just plain stupid). Not evil. That subgroup of Trump voters can be turned around. They need to be educated, not vilified.

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,749 posts)
22. Personally, I'm afraid the last thing most Trump voters want to be is educated.
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:53 PM
Dec 2016

Trump's election reflects a virulent anti-intellectualism that I fear is on the rise and can only lead to disaster. Look at how so many Rs complained about Obama being like a professor. Oh, god forbid the president of the United States should sound intelligent.

Of course, on the other hand, they also said the Constitutional scholar we elected was stupid and should "read the Constitution." So, logical thinking skills, not their strongest point. They are easily manipulated by appeals to their basest instincts such as tribalism and emotionalism. Facts, not so much.

My only hope, and this is perhaps in agreement with you, that there were a lot voters without whom Trump would have lost, who voted for him simply because they fell for the piles of misinformation fed to them. And this I hope only because it means that maybe, just maybe, not all of them are too far gone to ever "learn" anything that is not confirmed for them by the RW propaganda machine.

But, in many cases, for instance in the case of my RW relatives, it is not even that they have been misinformed. It is some kind of a primitive mind set that causes them to want to believe the lies the RW has been telling them. I'm not sure that can be changed.

What I do know is that unless the Democratic party and supporting organizations take the problem of the RW propaganda machine far more seriously and be willing to put massive resources into fighting back with a similar, but hopefully less sensationalist, dishonest apparatus, any chance of an objective reality agreed upon by factual proof, is gone forever. And then, the RW can't lose.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
9. It's human nature to other those who don't belong to our group
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:23 PM
Dec 2016

And it's human nature to shift blame. If we pretend that every Trump voter is an open racist or sexist, we don't have to look at what we as Democrats can do better.

Obviously we shouldn't give in to the worst angels of our nature, but it's hard. The internet plays into that as well.

 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
13. We don't have to assume every Trump voter is an open racist or sexist. But they joined forces with
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:29 PM
Dec 2016

open racists and sexists to make a fellow open racist and sexist President of the United States.

Pointing that out does not give in to the worst angels of our nature. It's just stating a fact. And I don't want my party to gloss over it or go out of its way to try to make nice with people who so willingly put my people and many others in direct danger.

JI7

(89,068 posts)
16. Since you are willing to excuse people who voted for a Bigot. maybe you should do the same for those
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:36 PM
Dec 2016

who are upset over people who voted for the bigot ?

Shemp Howard

(889 posts)
21. No argument from me there.
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:50 PM
Dec 2016

I can understand why many people voted for Trump out of desperation. And as I noted previously, I classify those people as stupid, not evil.

But yes, I can certainly understand why progressives would be upset at those Trump voters. If a well-intentioned person should drive a bus off of a cliff, it would only be reasonable for people to be upset at that bus driver.

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,749 posts)
23. IIRC, according to the stats, most who voted for Trump were well off financially.
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:55 PM
Dec 2016

I'm not sure how much we can excuse due to supposed "desperation".

Shemp Howard

(889 posts)
27. That's a good point.
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:06 AM
Dec 2016

Permit me to qualify my remarks. The "desperate" Trump voters of my acquaintance are not well off financially. They are, like me, working-class Democrats. And their fathers and grandfathers were working-class FDR and JFK Democrats.

But my acquaintances went for Trump because they were afraid. They bought into Trump's boastful and empty promises.

We will never be able to reach the rich Trump voters. No reason to even try. But we can reach those working-class Trump voters! Because they are NOT evil, as so many posts here seem to imply. They are just confused. That's all I'm trying to say here.

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
30. Plenty of well intentioned Germans took thier country down . It's only reasonable to not want
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:19 AM
Dec 2016

to accept that for my own country
and be upset at the voters who seek the same bigoted solutions for their own economic reasons (even though stats say trump voters averaged higher incomes overall) and do not care what that means for fellow targeted citizens . If the final words for them is I want my money and care none if it screws or kills others then they are correctly voting republican

The bad economy was used against Jews in Nazi Germany . Plenty Germans accepted the bigotry and were lulled by work projects like the Autobahn.

Shemp Howard

(889 posts)
34. True.
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:30 AM
Dec 2016

The German experience of the 1930s is a lesson we must never forget. But we must be careful not to apply it where it does not fit.

You are right to be on alert. I certainly can see Trump, if he is not checked, drifting into fascism. But I'd also hate to see many voters who made a mistake in 2016 being lost to us forever, just because we demonized them unfairly.

Perhaps there is merit in both our positions.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
17. You may not be in the minority.
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:37 PM
Dec 2016

Yes, I know those posts seem hateful, but they come from a relatively small group of people. And this is a time when we tend to vent. Some supporters were emotionally invested in Hillary, not just politically invested, and her defeat was almost like a death in the family. Part of the grieving seems to be lashing out. I don't think they really mean much of what they say. God, I hope not. It should taper off pretty soon.

UTUSN

(70,207 posts)
18. Can't "puts the brakes on (DRUMPF)" by loving & being kind to him and his.
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:41 PM
Dec 2016

That's the Col. SANDERS recipe over at the poultry farm.

RiverStone

(7,228 posts)
26. While I appreciate your sentiments, when we start losing our civil liberties...
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:04 AM
Dec 2016

On 1/20/17, it's gonna take an unapologetic resistance.

We have never seen a fascist in power in America.

His followers are also propagating the lies and hate. While insults to their face won't change them, here on DU - we remind ourselves often that we will never normalize what has happened. That includes, remembering that a vote for tRrump, is a vote for racism and misogyny.

I have no problem with how DU characterizes his followers. The fight to save our democracy is on!

Shemp Howard

(889 posts)
36. LOL, odd isn't it?
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:42 AM
Dec 2016

But yes, I think in this matter calling most Trump voters stupid instead of evil is a form of kindness, and so it's a progressive trait.

And it's also probably the most sensible thing to do. A person branded as evil is shunned. But a person thought of as stupid is not shunned. That person can be the target of education. For the sake of the next election, I think it's worth the effort.

lapucelle

(17,944 posts)
76. The fourth stooge from The Three Stooges.
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 03:46 PM
Dec 2016

I think he was a replacement stooge when one of them couldn't perform.

Different Drummer

(7,427 posts)
90. Correct.
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 06:34 PM
Dec 2016

The original Three Stooges were Moe Howard, Curly Howard and Larry Fine. When Curly had to stop performing due to health problems, Shemp stepped in for him.

Donkees

(30,697 posts)
59. Equanimity is a progressive trait, being able to shift focus and observe the various facets of a
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 03:56 AM
Dec 2016

situation, as opposed to using emotional reasoning treating feelings as facts. When emotions run high, complex reasoning gets high-jacked into ego-wars and polarized thinking. Just as there are strategies for dealing with emotional reasoning, there are ways to approach some of these Trump voters and reach them.

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
33. GOP is the ,,,,
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:27 AM
Dec 2016

largest organized group of Bigots and Hate Mongers in the USA.... Period! ,,, and if u vote for them u have become one! ,,,,,,

hay rick

(7,423 posts)
37. Stupid is as stupid does.
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:52 AM
Dec 2016

Many of the Trump voters are not really stupid- they are inattentive and uncritical. Failing to pay attention to available information, however, does not exonerate them from responsibility for their actions- especially when the consequences of their foolishness affects other people. Being "nice" by avoiding confrontation makes us complicit. Being nice to people is my default behavior but it isn't always appropriate. I have no sympathy for Trump voters who allowed themselves to be misled. They failed themselves, their families, and their country. They don't get a participation trophy.

Shemp Howard

(889 posts)
40. I agree with you (surprise).
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:01 AM
Dec 2016

I used "stupid" as a catch-all word to describe most Trump voters. But your description of them - "inattentive and uncritical" - is much better.

And I also agree that we should neither excuse them nor be nice to them. My point is that we should not treat them as monsters. Because most of them are not monsters. They simply heard from Trump what they wanted to hear, and ignored the rest.

Stupid, inattentive, and uncritical. And also redeemable. Not monsters.




BlueStater

(7,596 posts)
41. Maybe not evil.
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:02 AM
Dec 2016

But they went to a polling booth and cast a ballot for a misogynistic self-admitted sexual predator who mocked a disabled man. That's not a minor character flaw that I can just overlook. They can make all the excuses in the world for why they did it and it's all completely irrelevant to me. Nothing can possibly justify voting for that colossal fuckbag to be POTUS. Nothing.

And stupid people can be just as dangerous as willfully evil people. A lot of people are going to suffer, including themselves of course, thanks to their idiocy. I could tell just from listening to Trump for five minutes that he wasn't qualified to lead a goddamn boy scout troop, let alone the country yet, for some unfathomable reason, they could never see it. I have no sympathy for them.


 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
43. unfortunately liberals don't realize 'stupid' means talk radio-educated
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:07 AM
Dec 2016

and they analyze everything in a rw radio vacuum

for eg - 'lost his job' is about who to blame, which cannot be blamed on democrats unless you serve koch think tanks and have a direct line to 1200 radio stations blasting 40 states with 80 senators and 30 years of unchallenged bullshit

which liberals continue to ignore, in the biggest political mistake in history

tblue37

(64,481 posts)
44. Ignorant and uninformed is not the same thing as stupid.
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:07 AM
Dec 2016

The wattage may very well be there, but if people, for whatever reason, fail to inform themselves, then those people are foolish, but not necessarily stupid.

Furthermore, propaganda works, and tribalism is part of humans' instinctive package. Both of these factors can deform the perception even of well-meaning people, and both of these factors are very much involved in the way people vote--and in this election perhaps more even than usual.

Wiseman32218

(291 posts)
45. I don't see people that voted for trump as evil just
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:08 AM
Dec 2016

extremely mis-informed by the bought and paid for MSM and becoming mind numbed robots that cannot understand the repercussions of their voting actions. You can leave but that does not help solve the problem we are facing. Best of luck on whatever path you choose.

 

elmac

(4,642 posts)
47. So the stupid people who voted for trump
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:25 AM
Dec 2016

blamed Hillary for all their problems? Wow, I guess they are stupid, evil stupid.

Shemp Howard

(889 posts)
49. Imagine, if you will...
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:45 AM
Dec 2016

You are the leader of a people's revolution, and you are marching on the palace. Blocking your way is a unit of government soldiers. These soldiers all enlisted voluntarily. Some enlisted out of boredom, some liked the fancy uniforms, and some were seduced by the promises of the recruiter.

And yes, a few of them enlisted for vile reasons.

So what should you do? Should you try to reason with the soldiers, knowing that most of them enlisted out of confusion? Or should you just give them all a big F*ck You?

I'd argue that the revolution would have a much better chance of succeeding if you went the reasoning route.

Coventina

(26,725 posts)
50. Losing your job does not mean racism and sexism are ok.
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:51 AM
Dec 2016

Your good friend knew what he was doing.
There is no excuse.

Shemp Howard

(889 posts)
54. A question for you.
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 02:10 AM
Dec 2016

"Losing your job does not mean racism and sexism are ok."

I agree completely. But that's not the point I was trying to make. I avoid evil people; I shun them. They give off bad vibes. I don't want them anywhere near me.

Now let's consider my friend who worked for Hillary in 2008 but voted for Trump in 2016. I do not excuse his choice. I just explain it.

Here's my question. Should I classify him as an evil being, and shun him? Should I wish that bad things happen to him? Or should I continue a dialog with him, and try to get him back to his Democrat roots?

Coventina

(26,725 posts)
56. Your friend did something evil, but that doesn't automatically mean he is evil
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 02:47 AM
Dec 2016

I would need to get to know him personally before I could make such a determination.

If I was aware of a friend who voted for trump, I would definitely have a talk with him about it, with a conclusion that I really did not see a future for our relationship as long as he endorsed trump's values.

I would then encourage him to reach out to me after having time to think about what I had said.

MFM008

(19,745 posts)
51. They are to stupid to be evil
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:57 AM
Dec 2016

I don't like them, don't have to.
You don't have to like it and I don't expect you or anyone to.
I wish I could be more forgiving, but i have family members that will DIE
if they lose their health insurance.
A personal stake because of maggot voters disgruntled stupidity.
Racism, sexism , misogyny....whatever..
Death focuses you.

herding cats

(19,514 posts)
57. I've actually worked at the frontlines trying to flip many of these voters.
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 02:53 AM
Dec 2016

I'm not doing it anymore (at least for a few years, I have burnout) after this election cycle, but if you'd like to pick up my slot, it's yours for the taking. It's grueling, thankless work for the most part, and people will be vulgar and spew any personal insult they think might sting in your direction. Not all people, but the margin grew significantly this past election cycle.

I mostly work state and smaller level elections, but I do (did) work work the vital national elections in a handful of states where I was needed. The best advice I can give anyone looking to influence such people is, pound the pavement. You'll get nowhere with this demographic by being an internet warrior. They're too insulated in their peer groups and thinking. They reinforce themselves with those who mirror their thinking (look at their facebook, Twitter, etc., accounts, they seek out reinforcing voices, and facts do not matter), values and political views. You know that "bubble" people like to beat each other up with here? They patented it two decades ago. Yeah, I know they've been expanding the usage of "bubble" to cover people on the left, but I believe that's a symptom of social media (See above), and not even close to what those actually on the right have going on. They've had way more time to perfect the technique of full on propaganda, after all.

I agree with your getting off DU and getting out there working to change people's views. DU is a gentle, yet comforting port in the political storm, not a substitute for legwork and actual one-on-one personal interaction. It's discussion, not activism. They're not even similar! Your understanding that they're not evil, just really ignorant pack thinkers voting to harm themselves, and others, because they've not been educated enough yet is an interesting approach. I have no idea why the Democratic Party hasn't thought of this yet.

Be sure and update us on the elections you're working for so we can follow your success. I know I'm deeply interested in your personal experience.

I wish you the best of luck in your future political work.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
60. Come back around mid-summer
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 08:34 AM
Dec 2016

Political discussions are worst when there is no political action going on. Wait until there is some activity in the new administration and congress.

 

cwydro

(51,308 posts)
61. I see countless posts from DUers about all the health problems they're having since the election.
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 08:39 AM
Dec 2016

Numerous posts about the need for psych meds.

Living with hate and vitriol in your heart hurts only you. I'm amazed at the level of hate on this board.

Your hate is not hurting the deplorables. Those that are even aware of your hate are laughing at you.

So I agree with you on most points Shemp, but we're in a minority here.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
62. You are probably in the majority here
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 09:12 AM
Dec 2016

Any sufficiently large political discussion is always dominated by the 10% most vitriolic participants.

Just as society is dominated by the 10% most antisocial members.

 

cwydro

(51,308 posts)
71. Hmm, you may have a point there.
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 11:37 AM
Dec 2016

At any rate, I won't let hate for the other side ruin my life.

Paladin

(28,081 posts)
65. Thank you for stepping aside.
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 09:38 AM
Dec 2016

Things are just going to get uglier before there's any improvement, because of who we're up against.

 

taught_me_patience

(5,477 posts)
66. Honest question... are you a minority?
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 09:48 AM
Dec 2016

As a minority, I see things a very different way. The election of DT was a real punch to the gut to minorities and women because you realize just how many people around the country sympathize with a racist/misogynist.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,672 posts)
68. I have glbtq, undocumented, and Muslim fiends.
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 10:53 AM
Dec 2016

People who voted for Trump put their lives in danger. Where is us the empathy for them?

Do the pluralities of Germans who gave Hitler and his Nationalist Socialist party his victories get a pass because some of them lost their jobs or were hurt by the hyperinflation that plagued Germany in the thirties?

If they don't get passes why should Trump voters? Because they were Germans.

 

moda253

(615 posts)
69. Fuck that noise
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 11:01 AM
Dec 2016

Evil, stupid, lazy, vindictive... whatever it is that led them to vote for these people there is absolutely no excuse. None.

Pussy grabbing should have done it and don't tell me that they didn't know about that. Nasty woman and bad hombre should have told them that he doesn't have the temperament to be president.

There's no excuse. These people voted to ruin our country. They voted to completely fuck up my kid's world.

My children might now get to practice such fun exercises as hiding under their desks to protect themselves from nuclear blasts.

So no I don't think I will just agree that they are just uneducated voters and we shouldn't talk about them in nasty ways.

These people actively participated in destroying our country. Until they get out their pitchforks and torches and march on washington demanding that an about face occur immediately... fuck em. They did this.

In my eyes they are in lockstep with a fucking traitor.

mercuryblues

(14,400 posts)
70. What would you call
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 11:16 AM
Dec 2016

people who blatantly ignored the racism and misogyny that came out of Trump's own mouth? Who claim they voted for Trump because he is a business man, yet ignored all of his bankruptcies, sham college, not paying people who did work for him and his "charity" that he used to buy himself stuff?
Then to add the cherry on top, he promised to get rid of the ACA, with no plan on just what could be done to ease the pain and suffering of those who find themselves without a chance of getting insurance, mid chemo treatment?

Who inspired racial animosity to the point that they feel free to assault anyone who is a minority.

Just what would you call a voter who ignored his rallying cry to "lock her up" that escalated to kill her?

No. they don't get a fucking pass. They knew this and still voted for a man who is volatile and unstable. Because "I lost my job" I am going to vote for the man who says he will bring jobs back. Despite the very fucking fact that every single one of the trump family's factories are all over seas.

You seem to want to ignore the fact that people all over the world will DIE because of trump's policy proposals, while he and his buddies get even more tax dollars to hoard. While the single mother gets the blame for this country falling apart.

No fucking way will I let them rest comfortably. Every chance I get I will remind them how and why SSDI, SS, Medicare and Medicaid was ripped away from people in need. I will remind them that Clinton had very viable solutions to many of the problems in this country, yet they chose to wallow in hatred and believe lies.

Calculating

(2,950 posts)
73. Nope
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:33 PM
Dec 2016

They don't get a pass in the name of just being 'stupid'. Even the stupidest would have heard about Trumps racism/sexism/refusal to pay people who worked for him/etc. Either they agreed with him on that stuff, or they thought he was the lesser evil because they were so UNBELIEVABLY stupid that they believed all the conspiracy shit about Hillary being some kind of satanist.

 

Generator

(7,770 posts)
77. I don't believe you
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 03:49 PM
Dec 2016

That your friend went from "working FOR Hillary" to voting for Trump that makes no sense. Sorry. Maybe liking Hillary but working for her to liking Trump is insane. He lost his job so billionaire racist asshole with no experience is gonna get him one. Insane or stupid? Which would you pick? Maybe your friend is insane. That makes more sense. I don't like being gas lighted. And so sorry your tender feelings were hurt by our dislike of Trump voters. PS most of us have NEVER nor would EVER vote for any Republicon. Not in 50 years. Also you could have discouraged your friend from voting for a monster. Did you even try?

Also I CAME BACK to DU after years because of this nightmare. Leaving now seems the worst decision for a progressive. DU has never been a place of super nice no swearing loving everyone because they are sorry folks. You missed the Bush years! LOL.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,187 posts)
80. There seem to be a handful of you here, much like Susan Sarandon, who feel that a Trump admin...
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 04:27 PM
Dec 2016

won't be so bad. Personally, I don't a give two fucks about Donald Trump, his voters, and his useful idiots like Sarandon and her ilk. There seems to be a concerted effort among those sporting BS avatars to join forces with bigots, outright white supremacists, and sexual deviants who openly boast about assaulting women. You probably need that break you speak of, because I'm willing to bet that there's a huge chunk of DU who could care less about the willful idiots & outright racists who voted for Trump.

Bye Felicia.

Squinch

(50,306 posts)
85. LOL! Give it a little while. When you realize just how much death and destruction those "nice
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 05:48 PM
Dec 2016

people" have wrought, you'll be back.

And remember, when it was time for action, we acted in their interests. If only the same could have been said for themselves.

No one wanted bad things to happen to them. That was why we voted for Hillary. To prevent bad things from happening to them. But now, despite all of our best efforts and because of their own actions, bad things WILL happen to them. There is nothing wrong with hoping they learn the lessons from those bad things.

 

liquid diamond

(1,917 posts)
88. Your friend had plenty
Tue Dec 27, 2016, 06:00 PM
Dec 2016

of proof from Trump about what kind of president he would be. A liar, misogynist, racist, and xenophobe. Being stupid is one thing. Willful ignorance is unforgivable. Fuck trump and anybody who voted for that piece of shit.

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