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NanceGreggs

(27,815 posts)
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 01:24 AM Dec 2016

And So It Begins

On January 20th, the leadership of our nation will be passed from Barack Hussein Obama to Donald J. Trump.

The leadership of our country will pass out of the hands of an eloquent statesman and into the hands of Twittering fool who can’t even spell, no less put two coherent words together.

The reins of power will go from a man who gained the respect of the global community to a man whose ignorance and idiocy is already the punchline of jokes in newspapers around the world.

The First Family will no longer be the scandal-free role models a nation can look to with pride, but will now be a group of scandal-ridden misfits who outsource jobs to low-wage countries in order to add to their own business fortunes.

The man in charge of our national security will no longer be a man who rightfully placed sanctions on Russia, but will now be a man who owes his pResidency to their manipulations.

The man who will now occupy the Oval Office will go from being a President who won the position, twice, based on the votes of his countrymen to a man who had more citizens vote against him than for him.

The man who will represent us on the global stage will go from being a President who strives for diplomacy, understanding, and international cooperation to a man who talks about “using nukes” as though they were playthings to be toyed with according to his childish whims.

The White House will no longer be the home of a family the world admires and respects, but will be the when-convenient stopping-off place for a family that the world looks down upon – for their crassness, their lack of class, their self-promotion, and their total disrespect for the positions they hold as the First Family.

The man who fought for so many things that improved, enriched – even saved – the lives of his fellow citizens will be handing the torch of leadership over to a man who will do everything in his power to un-do what has been done in the People’s name, who will serve as the puppet of a foreign power, who will treat the lives of his fellow citizens as expendable, who will endanger our national security, and who will more than likely plunge our beloved country into ruin and despair.

THAT is what is going to happen.

So where do we go from here? Do we unite as a party – or do we continue to slice/dice/julienne the primaries and the GE? Are we going to move forward, or are we going to dwell in the past and dissect every campaign move, parse every statement and speech, create endless spreadsheets showing how if we’d just done this instead of that we’d have won this election in a landslide?

What is about to take place on January 20th is not an Excel presentation, it is not a reality-show that can eventually be cancelled due to a lack of viewers, it is not the trigger to the Revolution.

It IS what it IS. So do we stand together in resisting it, fighting it, undermining it? Or do we go our separate ways, where some of us fight while others re-perform the same autopsy for the brazillionth time in order to tell us where we went wrong?

It’s time to pick a side.

103 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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And So It Begins (Original Post) NanceGreggs Dec 2016 OP
K&R!!! 2naSalit Dec 2016 #1
K & R, thanks Nance keep us going to the future Thinkingabout Dec 2016 #2
Excellent post K&R radical noodle Dec 2016 #3
My side? sheshe2 Dec 2016 #4
Its time to pick a side? CaptainTruth Dec 2016 #5
"Do we unite as a party" - I'm no longer convinced that is the DNC Crash2Parties Dec 2016 #6
Well ... NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #7
I did. They folded time and time again. Doesn't mean I'm going to the Dark Side. Crash2Parties Dec 2016 #8
They are trying. There are just so many battlefronts. LisaM Dec 2016 #37
Once again, I ask, Where is Hillary Clinton LakeArenal Dec 2016 #47
"I keep waiting for her to help us find a new path." BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 #51
Thanks for letting me know my opinion is silly.. LakeArenal Dec 2016 #70
You confuse a functionary in a system of government BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 #75
Oh brother.. Thanks again for straitening me out. LakeArenal Dec 2016 #77
Good luck with whatever it is you think you are doing. BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 #80
How about you send your lecture to this Duer as well LakeArenal Dec 2016 #79
My post is visible to anyone who chooses to read it in this thread. BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 #81
blah blah blah.... LakeArenal Dec 2016 #83
That's binary thinking- not either/or, but both/and Fiendish Thingy Dec 2016 #9
So it's "the Revolution" ... NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #11
Nope- it was your OP that called for an end to debate and disagreement Fiendish Thingy Dec 2016 #29
So you and "many progressives" brer cat Dec 2016 #15
Thank you for this JustAnotherGen Dec 2016 #25
We have a good group of democrats brer cat Dec 2016 #33
Absolutely - also note JustAnotherGen Dec 2016 #34
+1 eom Raine1967 Dec 2016 #78
"I give him until January 31 to totally and completely destroy the Republican whathehell Dec 2016 #44
Corey Booker IS the future. If the old guard would get out of the way. 7962 Dec 2016 #60
Boomers aren't going to live forever JustAnotherGen Dec 2016 #76
+1000! mcar Dec 2016 #42
The point is that the person that members of the DP voted for this year to lead....lost LiberalLovinLug Dec 2016 #43
I suggest that you reread the post I was answering. brer cat Dec 2016 #48
I don't know why liquid diamond Dec 2016 #55
I think we all want the same thing LiberalLovinLug Dec 2016 #82
You said what I was thinking nini Dec 2016 #63
Hillary is a progressive. liquid diamond Dec 2016 #54
Other than some social issues, HRC is to the right of Obama, who is a centrist Fiendish Thingy Dec 2016 #58
+1!!! Dustlawyer Dec 2016 #67
Oh gawd.. you presented it so well what we're leaving and Cha Dec 2016 #10
well said Nance still_one Dec 2016 #12
KnR Hekate Dec 2016 #13
Yes, but more than eloquent, he is thoughtful, caring Akamai Dec 2016 #14
The sad truth is that America can't sell this malaise Dec 2016 #16
Following a particular "leader" secondary to Preserving and Defending the Constitution delisen Dec 2016 #17
Well said. CanSocDem Dec 2016 #18
One basic tenet of democracy is that whoever gets the most votes, wins. baldguy Dec 2016 #21
Yep JustAnotherGen Dec 2016 #26
You're accusing Bernie Sanders of not taking a clear stand? That is ludicrous. kickitup Jan 2017 #101
The blind man says JustAnotherGen Jan 2017 #103
So the only votes that matter are those truebluegreen Dec 2016 #45
The old saying is true: fall in love during the primary, fall in line during the general. baldguy Dec 2016 #61
My point is, how to reach the people who truebluegreen Dec 2016 #65
One thing for sure: it doesn't involve one candidate repeating the RW lies about the other. baldguy Dec 2016 #68
She was unpopular, that wasn't an idea the RW dreamed up. truebluegreen Dec 2016 #69
She's been one of the most admired women in America for over 20 yrs. baldguy Dec 2016 #72
"Unpopular" was another bit of RW bullshit you all kept repeating- and basically all RW bullshit bettyellen Dec 2016 #84
OK. She was the best, most qualified, most prepared, awesome-est truebluegreen Dec 2016 #85
Or keep pretending white men are going to care sooo much about the TPP and the 1% that they'll stop bettyellen Dec 2016 #86
You must have missed the part where Trump truebluegreen Dec 2016 #87
They voted anti immigration and anti terrorism- aka racism. bettyellen Dec 2016 #88
There are a lot of obnoxious things around here. truebluegreen Dec 2016 #89
Look at you taking your ball and going home! But not till after you put words I never ever said in bettyellen Dec 2016 #90
Who attacked whom in this conversation truebluegreen Jan 2017 #94
We don't need "Dems"who parrot BS RW memes bettyellen Jan 2017 #97
Still going.... truebluegreen Jan 2017 #99
Oh please with the whining. bettyellen Jan 2017 #100
This is your party; cherish it: truebluegreen Jan 2017 #102
you must have missed the part where Republicans who support free trade did better than Trump and JI7 Jan 2017 #96
Yes. liquid diamond Dec 2016 #56
If we believe as Noam Chomsky has said: retread Dec 2016 #19
This! k&r eom BlueCaliDem Dec 2016 #27
It's not January yet, and it will always be important to try to understand Crunchy Frog Dec 2016 #20
K&R smirkymonkey Dec 2016 #22
More than one side zipplewrath Dec 2016 #23
I know I was going to fight on January 9th ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #24
The gates of hell are about to open. Lint Head Dec 2016 #28
K&R Gothmog Dec 2016 #30
Well said, Nance. MineralMan Dec 2016 #31
Plus 100000! JustAnotherGen Dec 2016 #35
Aye.... Jacob Boehme Dec 2016 #32
Like this? DFW Dec 2016 #46
Wish I could K&R 1,000 times! NastyRiffraff Dec 2016 #36
K&R Jamaal510 Dec 2016 #38
Orange is the new black IronLionZion Dec 2016 #39
DU & the DEM party will unite 1/20/17 because... RiverStone Dec 2016 #40
This message was self-deleted by its author bora13 Dec 2016 #41
K & R Scurrilous Dec 2016 #49
RESIST with every fiber of our being. niyad Dec 2016 #50
Time to pick a side? 4bucksagallon Dec 2016 #52
Bernie is Jewish and a socialist liquid diamond Dec 2016 #59
Many articles have been written showing that Sanders would NOT have beaten Trump 7962 Dec 2016 #62
Many articles were written about how Drumpf could not possibly win too. 4bucksagallon Dec 2016 #66
Look at the puny crowds she pulled in compared to Bernie. Delude yourself all you want Hillary 4bucksagallon Dec 2016 #64
More of this large crowd bullshit. liquid diamond Dec 2016 #71
Bernie had YUGE crowds. NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #74
Off topic but liquid diamond Dec 2016 #91
Gee melman Dec 2016 #92
What would be "unite-y"? NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #93
SSDY. Rex Jan 2017 #98
Kick... JohnnyRingo Dec 2016 #53
K&R n/t lordsummerisle Dec 2016 #57
One man is the The Wizard Dec 2016 #73
kick a$$ bdamomma Jan 2017 #95

CaptainTruth

(6,594 posts)
5. Its time to pick a side?
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 02:24 AM
Dec 2016

Oh hell, I picked my side a long time ago & fascist Trumpenfuhrer can have my America when he pries it from my cold dead hands.

My ancestors fought & died to make America great ... how could I possibly do any less?

Crash2Parties

(6,017 posts)
6. "Do we unite as a party" - I'm no longer convinced that is the DNC
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 02:28 AM
Dec 2016

With very few exceptions their reaction to all of this - the entire circus of tragedies - has pretty much been summed up by Nancy Pelosi: "nothing needs to change".

Crash2Parties

(6,017 posts)
8. I did. They folded time and time again. Doesn't mean I'm going to the Dark Side.
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 02:39 AM
Dec 2016

But for Pete's sake - the least they can do is publicly examine the issues with voting machines, voter suppression, hacking and gross misinformation. Use their position as politicians to do what the press won't - call Trump on his lies. Loudly, please. Expose the GOP as a Dominionist party bent on forming a de facto if not de jure theocracy. *DO* something!

For 17+ years now, they've been expecting the GOP to suddenly stop cheating, become honorable and play fair. And when they don't the Dems just quietly say to each other, "tsk, tsk" as if that will help.

It gets old, and voters like me lose hope. My family is going to be in a world of hurt come January 20th and so far not a single Democrat has offered much hope.

LisaM

(27,813 posts)
37. They are trying. There are just so many battlefronts.
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 02:19 PM
Dec 2016

They've worked on the ID issues in Wisconsin, the gerrymandering in Ohio and Florida, and especially in North Carolina, where they will actually hold a special election next year with re-drawn districts.

Eric Holder also worked hard on this, and as I understand it, still is.

It's just not easy to combat a moving target. Voting is done on a state by state basis, and, unfortunately, when the Voting Rights Act was overturned by a partisan Supreme Court, it got a lot worse. Remember in the primaries in Arizona (and I think in the GE, too?) Polling sites slashed by a GOP Secretary of State. If you remember, Hillary's team did take it to court, though it seems with limited success.

People need to pay attention at a local level. The DNC can't fix this alone, it takes lawyers and resources. It takes the Justice Department, and there will be scant hope of that happening now. But again, I don't see how the DNC alone can fix this. They don't have the resources to throw at it and once you get one jurisdiction fixed, it pops up somewhere else.

LakeArenal

(28,820 posts)
47. Once again, I ask, Where is Hillary Clinton
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 06:05 PM
Dec 2016

Did not the majority of people vote for her leadership? I see no signs of any direction for her followers to go. Was she only in it for the Presidency? She is the leader of this demoralized party, and I keep waiting for her to help us find a new path. I see no fight from her at all. She seems to have taken her ball and gone home.

BumRushDaShow

(129,089 posts)
51. "I keep waiting for her to help us find a new path."
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 07:19 PM
Dec 2016

Why do people need a "leader" to do something?

This is probably one of the biggest cop-outs ever and is just silly. Movements are not single issue nor do they have single solutions. Start at the local level and volunteer to do grassroots organizing for a local election that may eventually produce the next class of politicians that can run for state/federal offices. There are far too many incumbents - notably in GOP areas - that have no one from the Democratic party running against them.

There is no "me" or "you" or "her" but "we" and "us".... where each individual contributes to the collective.

LakeArenal

(28,820 posts)
70. Thanks for letting me know my opinion is silly..
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 10:47 PM
Dec 2016

You have no idea what I have contributed. Who I've worked for. What I have done. How much time I have donated. If we don't need some leadership,not a leader, why do we even need a President. "Help Us" find a new path. Right, no me there... us.. and Help us find a new path, not direct us down a new path. I am asking that she continue to contribute to the collective..

BumRushDaShow

(129,089 posts)
75. You confuse a functionary in a system of government
Fri Dec 30, 2016, 07:05 AM
Dec 2016

i.e., the formal role of "President", who is assigned as a "leader on paper" as part of an established governance structure, with the role of the citizen, and what is needed by the people to petition the representatives of that government and contribute to making it what you want it to be.

The fact that you continue to focus and rely on a single entity to essentially "define" your needs rather than you being your own "leader", and building up the lowest levels to meet your needs, means that you are still not getting it.

Hillary Clinton is a single individual among many with good ideas that have been well publicized, intensely researched, and finely honed, but it takes more than a single person to make change. Barack Obama spent years attempting to make that point with the exhortation - "WE are the change" in order to take the focus off of him and put it on "us". This is in contrast to the authoritarian Drumpf who holds himself up as the "one", the "I"... basically the usual Ayn Rand focus on "individualism" that promotes complete obedience to a single person with the suppression of everyone else.

So YOU be "the leader" and "find the new path". Get people from the lowest levels that impact you the most in your community to start putting those changes in effect. You don't need to demand that a Hillary Clinton "help" you. Ask your family or neighbors or acquaintances to "help".... and the more the merrier. She wrote a book 20 years ago with a title that used the old African saying "It Takes a Village...". The same sentiment applies here.

LakeArenal

(28,820 posts)
77. Oh brother.. Thanks again for straitening me out.
Fri Dec 30, 2016, 11:24 AM
Dec 2016

You seem to a have analyzed me completely... You seem to feel it's okay to demand my course of action, having no knowledge of who I am or what I have done. Yet I QUESTION, where the heck ya been Hillary and you decide that I am confused, silly, lacking in political action, and that I should find with what you consider low impact. Well you seem to be correct. Thanks non leader for scooping down to whom you apparently feel is low impact and directing my course of action.

I have a sentiment that applies here as well.

LakeArenal

(28,820 posts)
79. How about you send your lecture to this Duer as well
Fri Dec 30, 2016, 11:42 AM
Dec 2016

Posted by ENIWETOK

Dear Hillary... Get Your Ass Out There and FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT
If an actual vote is a citizens consent to govern, then the People gave that consent to YOU Hillary. The PEOPLE rejected Trump, and his emotional immaturity, his intellectual dishonesty, his pathological narcissism, and his insane far right agenda by close to 3 million votes.

I don't don't know what your plans are but you better not be licking your wounds, getting ready to retire from public life. If you thought you had the energy to be president for 4 or 8 years then you have the energy to fight what may be the most important battle of your life: saving America and the Democratic legacy from a sociopathic president and his band of far right henchmen. This is no time to retire to Long Island. It's no time to let Bernie, Liz Warren, etc to organize the resistance movements alone. You better be prepared to get your ass out there and leverage that 3 million vote leverage and do it NOW.

BumRushDaShow

(129,089 posts)
81. My post is visible to anyone who chooses to read it in this thread.
Fri Dec 30, 2016, 01:04 PM
Dec 2016

It is apparent that rather than be solution-oriented, you want someone else to do for you, which is obvious from your cherry-picked rant from an anonymous internet poster that further supports looking to others and not to "self".

Fiendish Thingy

(15,623 posts)
9. That's binary thinking- not either/or, but both/and
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 03:01 AM
Dec 2016

We can both unify in opposition to Trump, and still debate how best to work to elect progressive candidates, and yes, to correct the mistakes of the Democratic Party. Whether you agree or not, there are many progressives who feel it is time for "Our Revolution"; one can lead, follow, or get out of the way.

NanceGreggs

(27,815 posts)
11. So it's "the Revolution" ...
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 03:10 AM
Dec 2016

... who's running the show - and who will decide who is leading, following, or getting in the way?

Fiendish Thingy

(15,623 posts)
29. Nope- it was your OP that called for an end to debate and disagreement
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 11:15 AM
Dec 2016

I'm suggesting Democrats "lead" with ideas (which will naturally spark debate), "follow" the ideas that generate grassroots support, or "get out of the way" but ceasing efforts to stifle debate and dictate the traditional "my way or the third party highway" approach of the DNC in the past.

That's a process that's truly democratic (small 'd'), and revolutionary.

If the Democratic Party can't do that and unite in opposition against Trump, they are doomed.

brer cat

(24,576 posts)
15. So you and "many progressives"
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 05:55 AM
Dec 2016

get to decide for the rest of us whether we agree or not? "My way or the highway" is the epitome of binary thinking and the death knell for unity. Members of the Democratic Party voted this year for the person they wanted to lead this party, and the founder of "Our Revolution" wasn't chosen. Overturning the will of the majority and trying to force us to accept as our leader a person who not only was a loser, but is one who actually abhors our party is certainly a novel approach, but one unlikely to be greeted with cheers by the people you are trying to influence.

Bernie has many great ideas, but so do our Democratic Senators. All of the many threads on this board trying to convince us that Bernie invented the wheel and has the sole vision for the future of this country are highly offensive and a catalyst for disunity. If you want to be a member of the party, you have to work with us, not grab the microphone and tell us we have to follow your Savior or get out of the way.

JustAnotherGen

(31,828 posts)
25. Thank you for this
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 10:49 AM
Dec 2016

Me? With all of the Sanders is a Hero I'm seeing? I give him until January 31st to totally and completely destroy the Republican Party or I want him to get out of our Gen X leadership's way. I can't relate to that guy. I can relate to Booker and Gillibrand - they are like me.

brer cat

(24,576 posts)
33. We have a good group of democrats
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 12:27 PM
Dec 2016

who understand both the depth and width of our party, and many are coming into their prime. We have to look forward, not backward to successfully plan our future. As much as I love Hillary, I was supportive of M O'M early in the primaries, and by the run up to 2020, we will have many more vibrant voices to sell our message, Booker and Gillibrand among them. If we fail to lift up the pols people can relate to, we will die off just as the pasty white patriarchal republicans will.

JustAnotherGen

(31,828 posts)
34. Absolutely - also note
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 12:56 PM
Dec 2016

I keep seeing comments along the lines of this:

'we are unashamedly fighting for progressive issues'


Really - if you aren't running in a local race and/or aren't volunteering for school board/town council gotv/elections you are just a poser. You aren't anything more than a cheap two bit dimestore keyboard activist. At minimum - show me the money.

whathehell

(29,067 posts)
44. "I give him until January 31 to totally and completely destroy the Republican
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 03:39 PM
Dec 2016

Party...."

So you're giving Bernie an "ultimatum", as it were?

That's something for him to contemplate, I'm sure.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
60. Corey Booker IS the future. If the old guard would get out of the way.
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 10:01 PM
Dec 2016

From the words of Pelosi, thats not happening anytime soon

LiberalLovinLug

(14,174 posts)
43. The point is that the person that members of the DP voted for this year to lead....lost
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 03:23 PM
Dec 2016

Sanders is not the enemy. He's also not trying to be anyones "Savior". Implying that anyone that backs Sanders is worshiping him as a "Savior" is insulting. Its getting so damn tiring repeating over and over to some of you that it really was about WHAT he said and not his looks, his age, his gender, or even if he ran with a temporary D after his name (would you have preferred he run as a third party?)

Sanders may have actually won if he had the same advantage in the huge start that Hillary had with the SD pre-primary endorsements. Add to that DWS stepping on the scales. His momentum was building with full stadiums. Its only smart to look at what he brought, what he spoke about, how it resonated with young people, to forge a new strategy.

Hillary won Democrats over with a relatively slim majority, given her lead, but she lost the general. Get over it. Its rich scolding all of the many ex-Bernie supporters "you have to work with us, not grab the microphone and tell us we have to follow your Savior or get out of the way". Like we still have to choose between following your losing candidates failed establishment triangulation way, or some pipe dream cult leader "savior".

How about instead we work together. Allowing the runner up to help heal and shape strategy going forward. No, its not fair. Life is not fair. And watching this runner up get more attention than the one that was already anointed complete with her glass ceiling celebration room, must be difficult to watch. But for the good of the party, and for the good of the American people and the best alternative platform that will appeal to a majority of voters, you have to get over it and stop thinking it is us against us.

brer cat

(24,576 posts)
48. I suggest that you reread the post I was answering.
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 06:10 PM
Dec 2016
Whether you agree or not, there are many progressives who feel it is time for "Our Revolution"; one can lead, follow, or get out of the way.


btw if you are going to quote someone, it is dishonest to insert your own emphasis without so noting it. I distinctly placed the emphasis on with which is a different meaning than you created.

Two further points on your post. According to you and many others, Sanders would have won if only the party hadn't been so unfair (how dare those SDs prefer someone other than Bernie!). You then say that Hillary lost without bothering to note that she encountered huge unethical and illegal tactics by the Russian hacks, Comey, et al. It is also very telling that you chose to describe Hillary as loser and Bernie as the runner up. That is straight out of a propaganda textbook!
 

liquid diamond

(1,917 posts)
55. I don't know why
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 09:37 PM
Dec 2016

Bernie's followers keep bringing up how the super delegates influenced the outcome of the primaries. They don't have any real power they can use without destroying their own party. I remember some cocky posters believed Bernie would win and thought the SD's would hand the election to Hillary anyway, resulting in his followers sitting out the election.

They can't have it both ways.

LiberalLovinLug

(14,174 posts)
82. I think we all want the same thing
Fri Dec 30, 2016, 01:42 PM
Dec 2016

A united force to combat the coming storm.

What that post was trying to say IMO, is that they assumed you and most everyone in here would call themselves "progressives", and they were telling you their opinion that many think we have to give "Our revolution" a chance. (And if you don't agree with that majority, and the Democratic Party leadership as well it seems, then it would be better if at the very least you stop criticizing.) But once again, it is turned into a personality issue, not about ideas. Its about following a savior IYO. Its not called "MY" revolution. That platform is not some radical Marxist agenda, it would only bring the USA up to date with every other western democracy. It would only begin to try and reverse the rapidly growing chasm between the wealthy and the poor. Towards the proven reality that a stronger middle class and taking care of the disadvantaged actually improves the economy overall vs. handing all the money to the very wealthy and sitting on pins and needles waiting for them to 'do the right thing' and NOT make their ties in China and instead open shop in the good ole USA and take less profit.

Not quite sure what is so funny you had to drop to the ground in a fit of laughter though. Bernie was the runner up to Hillary as the winner of the Democratic Primary. She was also a loser of the general election. (by the electoral college). If that is a funny fact to you, or "propaganda" then have at it I guess.

You know we are ALL bitter about the GE loss. And Bernie supporters had to also swallow the cutting loss of the Primary before that. It seems that some ex-Hillary supporters just cannot bring themselves to pick themselves up and stop acting like one of two children where they find out they can't go to Disneyland after all. It does no good to then lash out at your sibling to vent your anger, thinking that if the family only had one child they could have afforded to go. You are still not going to Disneyland.

 

liquid diamond

(1,917 posts)
54. Hillary is a progressive.
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 09:23 PM
Dec 2016

She just wasn't pure enough for radical leftists, so they chose cancer by allowing the fuhrer to win instead of getting a cold by voting for a candidate who championed at least some of their issues.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,623 posts)
58. Other than some social issues, HRC is to the right of Obama, who is a centrist
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 09:49 PM
Dec 2016

At best. If you don't believe me, go to politicalcompass.org (I think that's the correct site); HRC and Obama aren't even in the same quadrant as Bernie.

Rather than blame and exclude the radical leftists for "allowing" Trump to get elected, I think time would be better spent for Democrats to figure out how to enlarge and energize their base, to overcome the many obstacles beyond their control (at least until Dems win back control of congress and the White House).

Rather than focus on the 3 million margin in the popular vote, the solution lies in addressing the 80,000 margin in the Rust Belt.

Cha

(297,299 posts)
10. Oh gawd.. you presented it so well what we're leaving and
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 03:04 AM
Dec 2016

what's facing us after January 20, 2017, Nance.

It's some scary shite down the road heading at us as a country and a Planet.. We damn well better have some untied fronts against this vile fascist regime assisted by the US m$media******

 

Akamai

(1,779 posts)
14. Yes, but more than eloquent, he is thoughtful, caring
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 03:49 AM
Dec 2016

and a really nice guy.

I have some minor quibbles with him (like not calling the Republican s out earlier, the trans Pacific trade agreement), but I voted for him wholeheartedly and would do so in a heartbeat again.

Eloquent he is, but his strengths go far deeper.

malaise

(269,053 posts)
16. The sad truth is that America can't sell this
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 06:29 AM
Dec 2016

shit hound to the rest of the planet. Crooked, racist, ignorant - the ugliest American on the planet.

delisen

(6,044 posts)
17. Following a particular "leader" secondary to Preserving and Defending the Constitution
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 06:48 AM
Dec 2016

It is the Constitution and the Rule of Law that is at stake here. The individual leaders are not irrelevant but they are secondary.

Democracy is being attacked throughout the world. The call of "Lock Her Up" is now being chanted in Alberta, Canada by mobs much like the Trump mobs in our country.
A female leader is the target there also.

It is democracy that is under attack in Russia, eastern and western Europe, the US and now Canada.

Democracy is the form of government that seeks equality for each individual-and all of the anti-democracy movements taking place today are moves to deny equality. They are authoritarian movements seeking rule by Strong Men rather than by the Rule of Law.

We don't own democracy; we did not invent it; we are still far from perfecting it- and if we do not focus now on preserving and defending our Constitution we are going to lose the opportunity to perfect.

 

CanSocDem

(3,286 posts)
18. Well said.
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 07:53 AM
Dec 2016


Unfortunately, many here believe that the DNC invented democracy. And when someone with real democratic values comes along they are discarded in pursuit of a DNC victory, which should, by this time, expose the fundamental lack of "democracy" in American life.


.
 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
21. One basic tenet of democracy is that whoever gets the most votes, wins.
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 08:35 AM
Dec 2016

Sanders lost. Clinton won. And the best way Sanders could show "real democratic values" is to join the fucking Democratic Party. He has refused to do so.

kickitup

(355 posts)
101. You're accusing Bernie Sanders of not taking a clear stand? That is ludicrous.
Sun Jan 1, 2017, 02:14 PM
Jan 2017

Sometimes he's the only one taking a clear stand and it's a fucking shame so many on here can't see that.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
45. So the only votes that matter are those
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 03:44 PM
Dec 2016

for the nominee, in the Democratic primary? How'd that work out?

You have noticed have you not, that there are other races that matter, other voters that could be inspired, and brought into the tent? And before you seize on the obvious dodge of "there's no point in talking to those people," I'm talking about the 40+% who don't vote at all, many of them because They Don't See The Effing Point.

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
61. The old saying is true: fall in love during the primary, fall in line during the general.
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 10:02 PM
Dec 2016

That's the way we beat the fascists. That's the only way to beat the fascists.

The trouble is the anti-Democrat, anti-Clinton brats believed all the RW propaganda that was thrown at them.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
65. My point is, how to reach the people who
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 10:13 PM
Dec 2016

feel--rightly or wrongly--they have no reason to vote in either. They are not "in love" with the Democratic Party, and they sure as hell won't be falling in line just because people like you tell them to. Quod erat demonstrandum.

But you were doing so well, if a trifle authoritarian for my taste, until you started ranting about brats. I hope you enjoy fascist rule, 'cause with that attitude there will be plenty more.

Bye.

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
68. One thing for sure: it doesn't involve one candidate repeating the RW lies about the other.
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 10:27 PM
Dec 2016

The Sanders campaign was built on the RW idea that Clinton was unpopular, untrustworthy, corrupt and irredeemable - none of which was even the least bit true. He kept the campaign going for months after he was destined to lose.

And just should we call people who don't take responsibility for their actions in refusing the support the official Democratic nominee? Sanders supporters, apparently.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
69. She was unpopular, that wasn't an idea the RW dreamed up.
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 10:43 PM
Dec 2016

Or have you managed lo these many months to miss her frequently noted favorable/unfavorable ratings? You can claim that was unfair or untrue or whatever, but if you want to maintain that it didn't exist you are making up your own facts and have zero credibility.

And I beg to differ on the Sanders campaign: it was based on the premise that many issues of great importance to the electorate were not being addressed by Hillary. Economic justice, prohibitive college expenses, income inequality, etc.

Hillary must have agreed, since she adopted much of his rhetoric and positions. Or she said she did. Apparently at least some in the Rust Belt didn't believe her. That isn't a RW idea either; it is a fact.

I'm sorry our candidate lost. I am sorry for you that you can't seem to get past your anger and disappointment. If you carry this kind of rage you won't be winning many converts or inspiring anyone to do anything except avoid you. I don't blame Clinton solely for her loss (and ours), but I do think she was a weak candidate at this point in time (I think she would have won in a walk in 2008, given the opportunity). But it is over. She did lose, she won't run again I think and it is time to move on, and find a new direction--clearly the path we are on is not working and hasn't been for some time.

I hope you come along. But if you prefer you can sit here stewing and pointing fingers and blaming anybody and everybody else.

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
72. She's been one of the most admired women in America for over 20 yrs.
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 11:11 PM
Dec 2016

The idea that she's unpopular is one of those Big Lies that the RW is so enamored of - which, unfortunately works on people who aren't paying attention.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
84. "Unpopular" was another bit of RW bullshit you all kept repeating- and basically all RW bullshit
Fri Dec 30, 2016, 04:45 PM
Dec 2016

Against Hillary was just fine and dandy to repeat.
When I saw that I understood it was never about principals or integrity but some weird cult of personality that made aping Fox News bullshit okay. never again.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
85. OK. She was the best, most qualified, most prepared, awesome-est
Fri Dec 30, 2016, 07:15 PM
Dec 2016

Candidate we have ever had or ever could have.

And she lost, where it counted. As have many, many other Democrats at all levels in these last years.

So. What's the plan now?

Blame it ALL on enemy action and unfairness, or consider that maybe, maybe she wasn't the candidate for the time and maybe the Democratic Party needs an overhaul too.

Or keep doing what you are doing. Good luck.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
86. Or keep pretending white men are going to care sooo much about the TPP and the 1% that they'll stop
Fri Dec 30, 2016, 07:40 PM
Dec 2016

Hating women, health and social programs and issues helping POC?
That's the fantasy "lesson" I keep hearing jerks who spent all Spring flinging RW crap
are pushing now. Those WWC people who voted for Trump were nevER going for a "tax and spend liberal". But instead of fighting RW crap like that some of us are still flinging it.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
87. You must have missed the part where Trump
Fri Dec 30, 2016, 08:20 PM
Dec 2016

outflanked Hillary to the left on TPP and other trade deals, bringing jobs back, etc.

Sure we know it was all bullshit on his part but that's what they voted for.

Keeeriiiist, even the Republicans were willing to look at themselves after 2012.* The Democratic Party has to have that much self-respect at least. imho


*although they totally ignored the autopsy and assuming they don't manage to re-write the Constitution before the Democrats get their shit together, that will come back to bite them.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
88. They voted anti immigration and anti terrorism- aka racism.
Fri Dec 30, 2016, 08:26 PM
Dec 2016

The idea that it was about the TPP and the 1% was disproven by post election polls and the miserable results sanders backed candidates had.
Yet people keep cramming this down our throats here. It's getting obnoxious.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
89. There are a lot of obnoxious things around here.
Fri Dec 30, 2016, 08:32 PM
Dec 2016

But, of course, the Democratic Party is perfect, the candidate without flaw and everybody else is all fucked up.

I wish you luck.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
90. Look at you taking your ball and going home! But not till after you put words I never ever said in
Fri Dec 30, 2016, 08:39 PM
Dec 2016

My mouth.... Good luck reaching out to voters when you can't even have an honest conversation with people pn your own side without making up shit or getting in a snit and making snide comments.
That's really going to win hearts and minds. Good luck, indeed.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
94. Who attacked whom in this conversation
Sun Jan 1, 2017, 01:04 AM
Jan 2017

And why would that someone expect a civil response afterwards? You reap what you sow, or so I've heard.

I keep wondering if the entire party has gone insane. Too many are pointing fingers in every direction except inward...even if it was a vast conspiracy involving everyone from the Kremlin to BernieBros to the FBI to the media to hackers to the new Jim Crow to the non-existent Green Party vote we will still need to change our game to win.

Get back to me when you are ready to work on that...if you want allies of course. Feel free to go it alone. Good luck.

JI7

(89,252 posts)
96. you must have missed the part where Republicans who support free trade did better than Trump and
Sun Jan 1, 2017, 04:04 AM
Jan 2017

democrats who opposed it did worse than Hillary.

retread

(3,762 posts)
19. If we believe as Noam Chomsky has said:
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 08:09 AM
Dec 2016

"The Republican Party Has Become the Most Dangerous Organization in World History"

How is any action other than total opposition to any and all measures coming from this danger possible?

Crunchy Frog

(26,587 posts)
20. It's not January yet, and it will always be important to try to understand
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 08:21 AM
Dec 2016

when and why we've screwed up, so we don't keep making the same mistakes in the future. We'll never be able to resist effectively otherwise.

Disclaimer: I was neutral in the primaries.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
31. Well said, Nance.
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 11:41 AM
Dec 2016

And we must do it where we live, not on DU. DU does not affect elections. People affect elections in their own districts and states. Posting on DU is not activism. Activism happens where you live, and requires action near you.

DU is fun. DU is informative. DU is interesting. But DU is not activism.

Jacob Boehme

(789 posts)
32. Aye....
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 12:08 PM
Dec 2016

Donald J. tRump: All the entertainment value of a self-administered colonoscopy.... but with a lot more remaining "residue" afterwards.

NastyRiffraff

(12,448 posts)
36. Wish I could K&R 1,000 times!
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 02:02 PM
Dec 2016

Thank you, Nance. We all need to come together to fight the horror to come. The election,and certainly the primaries, are OVER. We need to face reality, and not reality TV.

To those who claim that this is anti-Bernie, or anti-debate, please read the OP carefully. Nobody is saying there never should be disagreement; it would be silly to say so since disagreement will always be part of the process. But forget the primaries, they'e well OVER and the people spoke loud and clear. We have to face what's looming in the country NOW.

RESIST!

IronLionZion

(45,451 posts)
39. Orange is the new black
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 02:32 PM
Dec 2016

and loss analysis/lessons learned are important parts of moving forward to adequately resist the alt-right and win the next election.

Trump and his minions will damage this country more than Bush and Reagan. We can beat these people because there are more of us and our policies are better.

RiverStone

(7,228 posts)
40. DU & the DEM party will unite 1/20/17 because...
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 02:38 PM
Dec 2016

The primary fight pales in comparison to losing our civil liberties.

So marks the first day of the resistance.

Response to NanceGreggs (Original post)

4bucksagallon

(975 posts)
52. Time to pick a side?
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 07:21 PM
Dec 2016

Maybe it's time to get rid of the Hillary avatars also. That was a losing side for sure. Hillary was the worst candidate to have put against Drumpf. I still say Bernie would have won and this wake we are experiencing now would be a Bernie celebration instead...... If only some would quit picking the wrong side.

 

liquid diamond

(1,917 posts)
59. Bernie is Jewish and a socialist
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 09:57 PM
Dec 2016

Trump's fucking working class whites in the rust belt never would have supported Bernie. Especially after the GOP whipped them up into a hateful frenzy. Oh, Bernie sucked at attracting black voters. I refer you to the primary results in the southern states where Hillary trounced him.

Cut this shit out. There is no way Bernie would have beaten trump. He couldn't even win the fucking primaries.

4bucksagallon

(975 posts)
64. Look at the puny crowds she pulled in compared to Bernie. Delude yourself all you want Hillary
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 10:12 PM
Dec 2016

was a loser from the get go. "But we all know it 'was her turn'"... Her turn to lose to the worst candidate I have ever seen in my lifetime. The DNC and DWS should be ashamed of themselves for foisting this plague upon us, they're not progressive they're regressive they have set the country back to the 1950's at least, maybe even the 1850's, time will tell.

 

liquid diamond

(1,917 posts)
71. More of this large crowd bullshit.
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 10:57 PM
Dec 2016

Take a look at those photos, and you will see mostly white faces proving my point about him sucking at attracting blacks. Additionally, large crowds don't result in more votes as Bernie's loss proves.

NanceGreggs

(27,815 posts)
74. Bernie had YUGE crowds.
Fri Dec 30, 2016, 04:38 AM
Dec 2016

Bernie had a YUGE message.

Bernie had an even YUGER amount of yardsigns and bumperstickers.

And BERNIE LOST.

The only thing that counts in an election are the people who actually show up to vote. Looks like those YUGE crowds that showed up for Bernie rallies just couldn't be bothered to vote for him. Maybe he wasn't as YUGE as some people want to believe he was.

The Wizard

(12,545 posts)
73. One man is the
Thu Dec 29, 2016, 11:52 PM
Dec 2016

result of a wealthy, albeit unscrupulous, sperm donor, while the other overcame incredible odds to reach the highest office.
Real simple: We must make an organized effort to nullify Trump's bizarre proclivities, or we will slide into the abyss.

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