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Canuckistanian

(42,290 posts)
Thu Jun 21, 2012, 10:44 PM Jun 2012

I've got this friend, see...

Ok, it's not really me, it's really a friend. And he's really confused politically.

OK, we're both Canadian, but he's a RABID fan of Ron Paul. And he's ALSO a big Occupy Wall St. fan.

I've tried to tell him that the two philosophies are at odds with each other, but he can't see the difference.

What is the most convincing argument that would cohere his thoughts into a more consistent world view?

This is driving me nuts.

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dwalters

(1 post)
1. You should consider the opposite perspective...
Thu Jun 21, 2012, 11:34 PM
Jun 2012

Namely, that the two movements are not at odds with each other philosophically. Some OWS supporters have been (and are) misguided; this is also true of some Ron Paul supporters. The fundamental underpinning of OWS is the desire to put an end to corporate welfare (Bailouts, Quantitative Easing, Military Industrial Complex, etc). This is one of the beasts that threaten our liberty. The only way monopolies and oligopolies can be sustained is through selective government sponsorship. When a particular business is backed by the force of government and the treasure of the tax payers, it makes it difficult for competitors not receiving assistance to compete. Meanwhile, those companies receiving subsidies can afford to maintain large market shares while still employing less efficient means of production than a free market would demand. Tax payers are looted while the Federal Government plays the role of a rookie venture capitalist. Corporate welfare is a real danger to us all, and OWS supporters are right to go after it. Now, if you will take a moment to consider the Austrian School of Thought regarding economics, you will find that these same principles that motivate OWS also motivate the modern Libertarian (Individual Liberty) Movement. The People are hungry for freedom. These two groups have grown from similar philosophical roots (although Libertarianism has been more concretely defined).

MADem

(135,425 posts)
3. Welcome to DU-- take the time to familiarize yourself with the TOS.
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 01:17 AM
Jun 2012

It will answer a lot of questions you may have about this site!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

LeftishBrit

(41,205 posts)
5. The same principles that motivate OWS do NOT motivate the modern Libertarian movement
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 05:56 AM
Jun 2012

Of course some people may join OWS protests for reasons other than the usual principles; but most OWS supporters are protesting in favour of social justice; against the super-rich robbing the poor; in favour of government spending to help the public, and welfare going to those who need it, rather than the banks.Right-libertarians do not care about social justice; they are fine with the super-rich being allowed to rob the poor, so long as the government isn't directly involved; they don't want government spending or welfar for ANYONE.

An unrestricted free market, such as that favoured by Ron Paul and the Austrian School, basically means favouring the already-strong, and trampling all over poor, weak, vulnerable, sick or disabled people. And in the end trampling over the public in general.

AJTheMan

(288 posts)
4. The problem with OWS is that they don't seem to have a clear set of objectives or goals.
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 01:21 AM
Jun 2012

So defining them is difficult. To compare one group to another, you must first define both groups.

LeftishBrit

(41,205 posts)
6. I don't think you can force someone into a consistent world view; but there are many good arguments
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 06:16 AM
Jun 2012

against Paul.

The real question is: WHY is he a Ron Paul fan? Some progressives are only aware of Ron Paul's opposition to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and to the drug wars, and are unaware of his harsh and indeed nutty economic views. It might be worth pointing out to your friend that Paul has many very unpalatable views.

As I posted a few years ago:

'Some quotations from his own website indicate some of the serious problems with his views, from a progressive perspective:


'A Republic, If You Can Keep It’ by Dr. Ron Paul, U.S. Representative from Texas

Address to the U.S. House of Representatives delivered on the Floor of the House January 31 - February 2, 2000

....The modern-day welfare state has steadily grown since the Great Depression of the 1930s. The federal government is now involved in providing health care, houses, unemployment benefits, education, food stamps to millions, plus all kinds of subsidies to every conceivable special-interest group. Welfare is now part of our culture, costing hundreds of billions of dollars every year. It is now thought to be a "right," something one is "entitled" to. Calling it an "entitlement" makes it sound proper and respectable and not based on theft. Anyone who has a need, desire, or demand and can get the politicians' attention will get what he wants, even though it may be at the expense of someone else. Today it is considered morally right and politically correct to promote the welfare state. Any suggestion otherwise is considered political suicide.
.
....Controlled curricula have downplayed the importance of our constitutional heritage while indoctrinating our children, even in kindergarten, with environmental mythology, internationalism, and sexual liberation. Neighborhood schools in the early part of the 20th Century did not experience this kind of propaganda.

....It is now accepted that people who need (medical) care are entitled to it as a right. This is a serious error in judgment.

...Probably the most significant change in attitude that occurred in the 20th Century was that with respect to life itself. Although abortion has been performed for hundreds if not thousands of years, it was rarely considered an acceptable and routine medical procedure without moral consequence. Since 1973 abortion in America has become routine and justified by a contorted understanding of the right to privacy. The difference between American's rejection of abortions at the beginning of the century, compared to today's casual acceptance, is like night and day. Although a vocal number of Americans express their disgust with abortion on demand, our legislative bodies and the courts claim that the procedure is a constitutionally protected right, disregarding all scientific evidence and legal precedents that recognize the unborn as a legal living entity deserving protection of the law. Ironically the greatest proponents of abortion are the same ones who advocate imprisonment for anyone who disturbs the natural habitat of a toad.

....The welfare system has mocked the concept of marriage in the name of political correctness, economic egalitarianism, and hetero-phobia.


....Any academic discussion questioning the wisdom of our policies surrounding World War II is met with shrill accusations of anti-Semitism and Nazi lover. No one is even permitted without derision by the media, the university intellectuals, and the politicians to ask why the United States allied itself with the murdering Soviets and then turned over Eastern Europe to them...'


So let's see. Paul is totally against any form of welfare state, even in its current American sense (very limited compared with most other developed countries); considers benefits for poor people to be 'theft'; does not think that people are entitled to medical care. Despite all his libertarian justifications for all the above, thinks that the government is entitled to ban abortions and 'defend marriage', (though he considers that these, like other government functions, should be carried out by individual states rather than the national government). He is opposed to gay rights ('heterophobia') and considers concern about the environment to be based on 'mythology'. Moreover, he is so isolationist or anti-Soviet or both, that he would apparently rather have had Hitler take over Europe than have an alliance between America and the Soviet Union during the war.'

On the other hand, your friend may a right-libertarian, who opposes the government bailing out the bankers because he opposes any government intervention, rather than because he thinks that such interventions should favour the general public rather than the already-rich. In that case, there probably isn't much you can do about it.

At least if he's Canadian, he cannot vote for Ron Paul. So the question is: how does this translate into his basic political philosophy? If he consistently votes NDP and supports public services at home, then it does not really matter that much, if he has a misguided view of Ron Paul. If he votes Conservative or Libertarian and cheers every cut in services that Harper proposes, then it is a different matter.

Canuckistanian

(42,290 posts)
8. All good points, thanks
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 08:34 AM
Jun 2012

I hadn't seen that address before. The part about "environmental mythology" certainly is at at odds with what I and most Canadians think.

I'm really astounded at the number of Canadians who seem to think that Paul is some kind of visionary while totally ignoring his socially destructive views.

NNN0LHI

(67,190 posts)
9. All good points?
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 08:43 AM
Jun 2012

Ron Paul voted in favor of the invasion of Afghanistan and then several years later in 2007, Ron Paul voted against a date for the Iraq war pullout.

Don

LeftishBrit

(41,205 posts)
11. Wow. I didn't realize the latter one, and I'm a card-carrying Paul-hater!
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 06:40 PM
Jun 2012

Thanks for further showing up Paul's hypocrisy.

Canuckistanian

(42,290 posts)
14. Umm, I'm vehemently against Paul
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 08:37 PM
Jun 2012

I was looking for ammunition against him. LeftishBrit gave me some.

What are you insinuating?

rucky

(35,211 posts)
7. Ask him how removing regulations on Wall Street would meet OWS objectives
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 07:01 AM
Jun 2012

If he's worked this out in his mind somehow, maybe saying out loud will make him realize how ridiculous it sounds?

surrealAmerican

(11,361 posts)
12. Is this friend some sort of crazy, mixed-up anarchist?
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 06:57 PM
Jun 2012

What is it about Ron Paul that he likes?



Maybe he's just trying to get a rise out of you.

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