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ithinkmyliverhurts

(1,928 posts)
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 07:03 AM Jun 2012

"Government isn't the solution; government is the problem."

How many times have we heard this--and from good people, who are smart, articulate, etc. When I hear this line, my first response is always: "Come on now, we all believe in government intervention; now it's simply a matter of degree and efficiency." Once we begin here, then we can discuss rationally, logically. Sure, you may have the but-job brother-in-law who wants NO GUBNINT at all in his bidniss. You can bring up sidewalks, interstate program, rural electrification (RURAL Fucking ELECTRIFICATION!!!!!!!), and he still won't budge. Fine. Kick the dust off your sandals and move along. This is clearly an irrational person.

But for those who like clean drinking water, sidewalks, snow plows, rural electrification . . . well, again, we have a place to begin: degree and efficiency. And once we begin here, you'll quickly notice that degree depends wholly on efficiency. You'd be amazed what citizens will allow if it's done with efficiency, if it's helpful, if it's a non-nuisance. Anyway, I know we all tire of the "government's the problem" argument, but it really is one that's a no-brainer to win. We can always agree with their frustration about inefficiency (insane expenditures, etc.) within government, but we must always go back to, "we all agree on government intervention; it's just a matter of degree and efficiency."

And if they go all Constitution on you, well, that's another thread.

29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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"Government isn't the solution; government is the problem." (Original Post) ithinkmyliverhurts Jun 2012 OP
It's a catchy soundbyte that has multiparty appeal Scootaloo Jun 2012 #1
Government (local/state/federal) melm00se Jun 2012 #2
The hippies? raouldukelives Jun 2012 #13
No, I blame Hippy Bullshit-thinking Scootaloo Jun 2012 #27
Sorry about that. I couldn't find "Hippy Bullshit-Thinking" raouldukelives Jun 2012 #28
Remember this one? "There oughta be a law" HereSince1628 Jun 2012 #3
It's insane clang1 Jun 2012 #6
Completely idiotic statement when you think about it randr Jun 2012 #4
+1000% RC Jun 2012 #9
We hate rules, but love the benefits of having rules: LOVE- HATE relationship. Festivito Jun 2012 #5
Ineffective government is a problem. Puzzledtraveller Jun 2012 #7
"Government isn't the solution; government is the problem." ?? raging_moderate Jun 2012 #8
It's amusing really. those who cry that government is the problem usually work in government. Javaman Jun 2012 #10
If government is such a problem, then why are these guys amassing truth2power Jun 2012 #11
Said the one time leader of.....wait for it.....the GOVERNMENT! Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2012 #12
How will the Koch bros, save us from an asteroid impact? RedCloud Jun 2012 #14
Do you know who said it? Hells Liberal Jun 2012 #15
Government is the people. kimbutgar Jun 2012 #16
Ronald Reagan was a very ignorant and selfish man. GeorgeGist Jun 2012 #17
Capitalism is the problem and government is supposed to be the solution libtodeath Jun 2012 #18
Huh? Puzzledtraveller Jun 2012 #20
That would be on the theory - bhikkhu Jun 2012 #22
If capitalism is based on limited resources, ithinkmyliverhurts Jun 2012 #25
There is a quote from the late Molly Ivins Fortinbras Armstrong Jun 2012 #19
That is why we loved her. jwirr Jun 2012 #24
We the People are the government. That's why Authoritarian warmongers hate us so much. Octafish Jun 2012 #21
One of the big problems with this is that when a state/usa has a rethug leader they do everything jwirr Jun 2012 #23
"History has tried to teach us that we can't have good government under politicians." Mark Twain Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2012 #26
and i hear this shit from people who are employed BY THE GOVERNMENT. spanone Jun 2012 #29
 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
1. It's a catchy soundbyte that has multiparty appeal
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 07:23 AM
Jun 2012

"What's that," you say, "multiparty appeal?" perhaps you scoff. Allow me to explain.

Hippy bullshit-thinking still dominates the Democratic party. I don't mean all "hippy" ideas were / are bad, but c'mon guys admit it, there's plenty of bullshit in there. And one of those bullshit ideas is very much "government is the enemy." While from the Conservative-Bullshit perspective, the government is evil because it has taxes and stuff, to the Hippy-bullshit perspective, the government is the enemy because of the military and the DEA.

What's more, both styles of bullshit strongly favor ultra-concentration of power in the hands of a very small "elite." Here's how that works from the Hippy-bullshit angle; The entire political thought of this generation amounted to "If we stop doing stuff, things will get better." Drop out of the political system and "the revolution" will come. Never ever get involved with government because that's how "the man" will bring you down, maaaan. Voting is for squares, and civic participwhat? Whereas the conservative-bullshitters are happily and actively trying to transfer all power to a nepotistic ruling class, the hippy-bullshitters are happily doing fuck-all about it; an then using it as justification for happily doing fuck-all about it.

Cut to the present day. What passes for "the left" in America is still largely founded on the ideals of Hippy-bullshitters. Essentially the Democratic party is still pretending it can turn the clock back and live in 1969 (or 1973 if they're like, totally far-out, man.) This is why we have to constantly put up with the debacle of these idiots trying so desperately to be "bipartisan," because of some mythology that that's how it was then so it should be now. And as people who largely buy into the idea that government is the enemy ("Like, remember Nixon, man?&quot they are philosophically inacapable of arguing the point with the Republicans - and a sizble chunk of the voting base for Democrats is either similarly impaired, or can only offer lukewarm defenses of government that sound more like someone reading a VCR manual than making an argument.

Bottom line is, we are the government. "of the people, by the people, for the people" is how Lincoln put it, way back when. Someone who says "government is the enemy" is saying democracy is the enemy, that Americans are the enemy.

melm00se

(4,993 posts)
2. Government (local/state/federal)
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 07:43 AM
Jun 2012

has to perform a balancing act.

it has to walk a fine line between being uninvolved and overly intrusive.

fall on either side of the line and you end up with lots of negative repercussions.

raouldukelives

(5,178 posts)
13. The hippies?
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 09:41 AM
Jun 2012

Blame the hippies? Sure some people dropped out, just like they are dropping out now. When I look to the youth now to see a better future it isn't coming from young MBA's and the offspring of real estate developers and Wall St enablers. Its probably much the same as it was in the 60's. The youth today who make me have the most hope for the future are absconding from the mainstream and trying sustainable food production, solar power, arts & music. I know that stuff is considered hippie bullshit, and maybe it is, but its far, far better than capitulating to the right. The hippies I know, the hippies I've known, were always the one who stood the fastest to their beliefs, to the things that they felt made them human and made them put environment and wildlife sometimes even ahead of their own lives. These guys might seem all peace & love but back one in a corner over an issue they champion and they will fight til they are dead.
I'm really not sure where all the earth last, corporation loving liberals came from who invaded this party. But I do believe they are the ones who have pushed this party towards the center and who provide cover for the crimes of high finance and will do anything for enough dollars.
My kooky theory is that the right in this country has become so insane over the last 30 years that many moderate conservatives changed teams. In the process many of them with contacts in Wall St, banking and the MIC started crafting backroom deals and sweetheart situations for themselves and friends.
Ah well, all I know is if we are being held back by hippies now then bless them for trying. I had no idea we had so many commune loving, organic farming, Pink Floyd listening, tie dye t-shirt making, money & war hating leaders in Washington today.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
27. No, I blame Hippy Bullshit-thinking
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 03:19 PM
Jun 2012

Specifically, the Hippy bullshit-thinking that says "the government is the bad guy." What I said had fuck-all to do with music or fuzzy animals.

It's all right there in my post that you DID NOT FUCKING READ. My suggestion is to take off the huge headphones - Wavy Gravy isn't going anywhere - apply some visine (it gets the red out) and read the lines that I wrote. It's arranged into left-to-right sentences, structured into words, and for your viewing convenience I have used the Latin alphabet. Basically I'm holding your hand and walking you half-way.

raouldukelives

(5,178 posts)
28. Sorry about that. I couldn't find "Hippy Bullshit-Thinking"
Sat Jun 23, 2012, 09:06 AM
Jun 2012

in my dictionary. So basically the only "Hippy Bullshit-Thinking" you have a problem with is "the government is the bad guy". Which I never really considered "Hippy Bullshit-Thinking" but I see where you are coming from.
I thought you meant more than that like maybe the 60's didn't show us the possibilities and responsibilities we all had. Thanks for the clarification and sorry to make you have to resort to insults.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
3. Remember this one? "There oughta be a law"
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 07:50 AM
Jun 2012

And the R's are still very deep into that meme, too. And that goes to show that r's DO see government as the solution, so long as it's a republican run government pushing ideas that Fox news and the ALEC-oid think tanks are behind.

Nine hundred and sixteen, 916!!!!, bills introduced in the various legislatures to tell women what they can't do with respect to their own reproduction. That's government staying out of people's private lives?

 

clang1

(884 posts)
6. It's insane
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 08:56 AM
Jun 2012

isn't it.

re: Nine hundred and sixteen, 916!!!!, bills introduced in the various legislatures to tell women what they can't do with respect to their own reproduction.

randr

(12,412 posts)
4. Completely idiotic statement when you think about it
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 07:50 AM
Jun 2012

Problems are a part of life and government is how we have evolved to deal with them.
Another example of how right wing sound bites dominate the thinking process of people incapable of thinking for themselves.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
9. +1000%
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 09:07 AM
Jun 2012

What randr said. Why government and not private enterprise? Because government can do it more efficiently and cost effectively than private enterprise, because the profit motive is missing. The CEO perks and bonuses and obscene 450%+ pay is missing for starts. Because the services offered are to serve the public and not to make a profit at the public's expense.
Depending on the function, government can offer some of its services at less than cost to the public, which would bankrupt a private company trying to do the same thing at the same price.

Festivito

(13,452 posts)
5. We hate rules, but love the benefits of having rules: LOVE- HATE relationship.
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 08:52 AM
Jun 2012

If kids are late, parents overreact.
If parents are late, same kids are in a tizzy.

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
7. Ineffective government is a problem.
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 08:58 AM
Jun 2012

Democrats or Republican, we send them to Washington to do our work, you would think we are asking them to perform brain surgery every day. Both sides will cry obstructionism, that's total BS, it's collusion to sit on their hands long enough to make it to another term, promising, they will get something done this time.

raging_moderate

(147 posts)
8. "Government isn't the solution; government is the problem." ??
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 09:06 AM
Jun 2012

Yeah, when you clowns run it. So why don't you get out of our way?

Javaman

(62,530 posts)
10. It's amusing really. those who cry that government is the problem usually work in government.
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 09:18 AM
Jun 2012

and the best part is: their mouth breathing moron supporters fail to see the irony.

truth2power

(8,219 posts)
11. If government is such a problem, then why are these guys amassing
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 09:22 AM
Jun 2012

billion dollar campaign chests in order to become a part of it for their entire lives??


ETA: To javaman, above....I guess we both posted about the same time. Great minds, and all that.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,182 posts)
12. Said the one time leader of.....wait for it.....the GOVERNMENT!
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 09:32 AM
Jun 2012

Damn that guy was stupid.

Yet, if Ronald Reagan was insinuating that he was the problem, perhaps he was right after all....

RedCloud

(9,230 posts)
14. How will the Koch bros, save us from an asteroid impact?
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 09:44 AM
Jun 2012

I would weld their nuclear fallout door shut so they can't get back out!

 

Hells Liberal

(88 posts)
15. Do you know who said it?
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 10:02 AM
Jun 2012

Ronald Reagan at his 1981 inauguration.

Think about it for a minute - Reagan served two terms as governor of the largest (population) state in the country. He ran for president three times and was elected to the position twice!

If he thought that "government was the problem", then why be a part of it? Why not stay in the private sector, which, according to his logic, is the solution?

Just one more example of Reagan's hypocrisy and idiocy. Be sure to share with the repub you love.

kimbutgar

(21,155 posts)
16. Government is the people.
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 10:03 AM
Jun 2012

Do we want to live in a country where corporations control the people or people control the corporations? Because government is the people and the only way we can have an effective control is when the people are in charge. Unfortunately since raygun with his "government is the problem bullshit" enough people believe this and put these anti government people in charge who F$%k up the government. Now they want to privatize government but when you do that someone has to make a profit and those profit have to increase to please shareholders and then prices get raised. Government runs as non profit and the only shareholders are the people. But this bit of logic seems to escape the sheeple who are being lied to by the right wing media and the corporate overlords who want money money money and screw the people.

libtodeath

(2,888 posts)
18. Capitalism is the problem and government is supposed to be the solution
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 10:12 AM
Jun 2012

that was how it was set up and worked pretty well for a long time.
We need to get back to that thinking as a nation if we want to thrive.

bhikkhu

(10,718 posts)
22. That would be on the theory -
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 11:26 AM
Jun 2012

that capitalism inherently creates inequality and concentrates the wealth of many in the hands of a few. Government, through taxation and services, balances this and provides for a decent level of equality.

The goals of Norquist and the repugs make more sense if you look at it this way - they have a fundamentally different notion of how the world should be.

ithinkmyliverhurts

(1,928 posts)
25. If capitalism is based on limited resources,
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 01:44 PM
Jun 2012

and that is, in fact, what it is based on--just ask any capitalist--then in some way government by the people most likely won't help enable the manipulation of limited resources. Businesses will (that is simply objectively what they do), but the people push back through representation. Representation = government. Sometimes government can fill a void which industry does not find immediately profitable (light houses, for example, or libraries), but we ask the our reps. to keep it as efficient as possible, not to overpay themselves or buy unnecessary crap (like Jane Austen novels--I kid), so that we too can participate in a system based on limited resources.

And on and on.

Fortinbras Armstrong

(4,473 posts)
19. There is a quote from the late Molly Ivins
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 10:18 AM
Jun 2012

Last edited Fri Jun 22, 2012, 12:39 PM - Edit history (1)

I think government is a tool, like a hammer. You can use a hammer to build with or you can use a hammer to destroy with. Whether government is good or bad depends on what you use it for and how well you use it. On the whole, it's a poor idea to put people in charge of government who don't believe in using it. I believe government should be used in order to form a more perfect Union, to establish justice, ensure domestic tranquillity, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.


Octafish

(55,745 posts)
21. We the People are the government. That's why Authoritarian warmongers hate us so much.
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 10:38 AM
Jun 2012


We the People is the problem.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
23. One of the big problems with this is that when a state/usa has a rethug leader they do everything
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 11:28 AM
Jun 2012

in their power to prove the statement is true. I am not anti-south but take a look at states like LA. The government there is not working to better the state. Instead it is weakening the government programs such as education. This is happening wherever there is a rethug in the lead.

And it is not just the south - just more visible there. My own state MN elected a bunch of teabaggers in 2012 and they are doing everything they can to destroy our state. Thank God for Governor Dayton. He can veto them.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
26. "History has tried to teach us that we can't have good government under politicians." Mark Twain
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 01:55 PM
Jun 2012
"History has tried to teach us that we can't have good government under politicians.  Now, to go and stick one at the very head of government couldn’t be wise." - Mark Twain
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