Ann Romney's High Horse Super Hit had Butorphanol, Delomidine, Romifidine, & Xylatine in its system

[kpete]

Ann Romney's High Horse

Super Hit had Butorphanol, Delomidine, Romifidine, and Xylatine in its system at the time of his sale, according to court documents. Testified an expert: “In my 38 years of practice, I have never come across a drug screen such as this where the horse has been administered so many different medications at the same time.”





MORE:

Romney and her trainers sold the horse, Super Hit, in 2008 for $125,000. And Super Hit had what a prominent veterinarian described as a staggering quantity of drugs in its system at the time of its examination before being sold, according to a toxicology report that's part of the lawsuit over the horse's condition.

According to a toxicology report provided to the horse's vet and testimony from a veterinarian, Dr. Steven Soule, included in the lawsuit, Super Hit had three sedative pain killers and one narcotic pain killer in her system when the horse was examined to check her condition pre-sale. The drugs were Butorphanol, Delomidine, Romifidine, and Xylatine.

Soule, who has been the United States Equestrian Team veterinarian since 1978, writes, “In my 38 years of practice, I have never come across a drug screen such as this where the horse has been administered so many different medications at the same time.” The horse had a defect in its foot, and Norris's lawyers alleged that the Ebelings had drugged the horse in order to hide its condition.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/ann-romneys-high-horse

[MADem]

1. Perhaps she's been drugging Mittsy too, and that accounts for his fumbles, bumbles and missteps! nt

[randome]

4. Unfortunately, she didn't use the right amount of rat poison.

Now he's grown immune to the stuff.

[SoutherDem]

24. High on pain relievers

That would explain his personality.

[MADem]

29. Oxycodone is Hillbilly Heroin; I imagine he must be on some sort of Millionaire's Morphine! nt

[goclark]

58. Isn't that what Rush Limpballs

takes all the time?

[MADem]

60. I understand he used to send his maid out to get it, and bullied her

into providing him with her husband's pills.

[goclark]

64. Arrest Rmoney , he needs some Time Out For A Rest

He is not fit to be around animals or humans.
Well, put him around Rethugs, they are Birds of a Feather.

[PostCapitalist]

63. Lush Rimjob...

[riderinthestorm]

33. Pain killers and tranquilizers. I had to look all of those things up!

I didn't know what any of them were.... None of these are standard drugs. It LOOKS as though the Romneys and Ebelings went out of their way to use substances that (I presume) wouldn't show up in a routine blood test - common drugs like bute, aspirin, acepromazine etc.

Un-fuckingbelievable. And really despicable.

[magical thyme]

37. I looked them up as well

the only one I recognized was rompun (xylatine) -- heavy duty, fast acting sedative that's knocks them practically off their feet. It used to be used alone for some procedures. I used it once decades ago working in an international barn, I think for a horse having a dental procedure done.

It's now used in concert with one of the other drugs and I think that is what my elderly gelding was given back in January when he had his teeth power-floated.

What amazed me -- I need to check again -- but I think I saw that at least 2 of them were contra-indicated. If so, they could have killed that poor horse.

[AllyCat]

67. Oops! I posted this downstream as I didn't see this here.

The Rompun alone was enough to sedate a horse. To have all four of these drugs at the same time is horrifying. All sedatives. Not pain killers in horses as far as I can tell. Narcotics don't really work in horses, hence the bute and Banamine we all know. Sedatives are what you need when those don't work anymore. This is really horrible.

[magical thyme]

74. the butorphonal is an analgesic

which is another word for pain killer. The ditidimine (or whatever) also has "analgesic properties."

These days they do use specific combinations of 2 for certain medical procedures. Usually Rompon (xylodine) and either Butorphonal or another sedative/analgesic.

The veterinarian in question had used and listed 2 of the drugs in order to do the x-rays, but said he was unaware of the other 2 drugs. Ebeling also claimed to have no knowledge of the other 2 drugs.

Obviously somebody knew that horse had the other drugs in his system.

[magical thyme]

38. here it is...

Ok, not contraindicated, but 3 of them cause brachycardia (slowing of the heart rate) and depress respiration. Also, butorphanol is prohibited for use in competition by the FEI.


In veterinary use, butorphanol ("Torbugesic&quot is widely used as a sedative and analgesic in dogs, cats and horses. For sedation, it may be combined with tranquilizers such as alpha-2 agonists (medetomidine (Domitor)), benzodiazepines, or phenothiazines (acepromazine) in dogs, cats and exotic animals. It is frequently combined with xylazine or detomidine (Domosedan etc.) in horses[3]. As with other opioid analgesics, central nervous system effects (such as sedation, confusion, and dizziness) are considerations with butorphanol. Caution should be used if Butorphanol is administered in addition to other narcotics, sedatives, depressants, or antihistamines as it will cause an additive effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butorphanol

Detomidine is a sedative with analgesic properties.[1] ... Due to inhibition of the sympathetic nervous system, detomidine also has cardiac and respiratory effects and an antidiuretic action.[2]

A profound lethargy and characteristic lowering of the head with reduced sensitivity to environmental stimuli (sound, pain, etc.) are seen with detomidine. A short period of reduced coordination is characteristically followed by immobility and a firm stance with front legs spread. Following administration there is an initial increase in blood pressure, followed by bradycardia and second degree atrioventricular block (this is not pathologic in horses). The horse commonly sweats to excess, especially on the flanks and neck. Other side effects reported include pilo erection (hair standing erect), ataxia, salivation, slight muscle tremors, and (rarely) penile prolapse.

As detomidine is an arrhythmogenic agent, extreme care should be exercised in horses with cardiac disease, and in the concurrent administration of other arrhythmogenics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detomidine

Romifidine is a drug that is used in veterinary medicine as a sedative mainly in large animals such as horses,[1] although it may be used in a wide variety of species.[2][3] It is not used in humans, but is closely related in structure to the commonly used drug clonidine. Romifidine acts as an agonist at the ?2 adrenergic receptor subtype. Side effects can include bradycardia and respiratory depression.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romifidine

Xylazine is a drug that is used for sedation, anesthesia, muscle relaxation, and analgesia in animals such as horses, cattle and other non-human mammals. An analogue of clonidine, it is an agonist at the ?2 class of adrenergic receptor.
As with other ?2 agonists, adverse effects include bradycardia, conduction disturbances, and myocardial depression.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylazine

[riderinthestorm]

41. I've only ever had 1 vet rx rompun and torbugesic for a horse with terrible front end problems

for shoeing. It was THAT rare.

I'm honestly deeply troubled that the rMoneys and Ebeling tried to do this. For those people who aren't "in the biz" they have only a glancing understanding of how bad this is. For those of us who "know", this should be career-ending-bad. Ebeling has been completely shielded from censure in the dressage community by the rMoney's for sure. He hasn't had to worry about clients, reputation, sales, training - he clearly has the full backing of the rMoneys' to shield his fraud.

Ann obviously bought the horse as a non-competitive schoolmaster since she knew about the issues the horse had. I get that. I've actually sold an FEI horse like that (Intermediare II with impeccable tempes but navicular as hell. For some dressage queens who must learn tempes, the money is nothing) but you can't misrepresent that. They are either able to compete or not. It must be clear since drug testing at competitions is random. FWIW, we've been drug tested at shows and obviously never had an issue but the lawsuit stipulates that this horse was represented as competitive.

Damn I hate that. I'm sure for the rMoneys $125k is pocket change but for the aspiring young rider/amateur its a second mortgage on their parents home as they try to "buy" the horse and experience their horse-mad daughter requires to set her up as a trainer/competitor for life. (for those not in the biz, young riders will buy a finished "made" horse so their kid gets the requisite experience. Its like buying a college degree but in a trade/skills way. Be that as it may, that horse however MUST be competitive in the real world where the horses are drug tested. )

[magical thyme]

43. it absolutely sickens me

It is this kind of behavior that has totally turned me off to dressage competition. Why waste my time and money on something like that. They really don't get that when you rely on drugs, you are no longer doing dressage. Win at all costs has nothing to do with the point of it.

It's disgraceful that a known cheat is being sent to the Olympics. Makes the entire process suspect to me. Hopefully they'll be testing Rafalca frequently.

This isn't the first case of drugging that I know about. Many, many years ago I suspected (due to what a co-barn manager witnessed) that a future world cup rider was drugging (with bute) the horse she got her start on. Years later, when she did go to the world cup, her new horse was very obviously lame in competition and came in last. Should technically have been eliminated, so lame. I suspect she had been drugging that one too, but didn't dare attempt it at the World Cup, so rode a lame horse instead, just to stick on her resume. She also conspired with Robert Dover to crush me very early on. Those types crush anybody they can, just for practice.

I had another 1%er -- this one a top breeder -- try to screw me over with an unsound horse. First she wouldn't let me see a specific one of her young prospects for sale; then weeks later he failed a vet exam with chips in both hocks. Post-surgery, suddenly I was allowed to buy him...at full price! A GP prospect with surgery in both hocks?!? Thanks, but no thanks.

[rocktivity]

2. Remember back when Steve Colbert broke his wrist

and had his doctor on the show to remove the cast?

Steve put some pill bottles on his desk, including a very large orange one. The doctor frowns at it and says, "I didn't prescribe those." Colbert says, "No, my veterinarian did."


rocktivity

[riderinthestorm]

3. Doping horses for sale is pretty damn stupid. The bloodwork will always show it up

and then you are exposed as a cheater.

Pre-purchase exams (good ones at least) almost always draw a blood sample for analysis. You can mask so many chronic ailments that, if known, would lower the price dramatically so its pretty common practice to draw blood to check for that.

Jan Ebeling and the rMoneys should be ashamed (I doubt they are, but they should be). I'm glad its coming out - its a really bad practice for the sport and should never happen.

[BlueToTheBone]

5. I would expect nothing less from Ann Romney.

That she would sell a lame and drugged horse for a fortune is right in line with their family values. Cheat, steal and lie to get what they want...more money.

[perdita9]

52. Great Christian Values, right?

totally in line with Mormon theology.

[AllyCat]

65. Hey, she is following her value system which states she should make as much money as possible.

[leveymg]

6. Who does that horse think he is, Rush Limbaugh?

[donquijoterocket]

50. I'm

pretty sure that animal did, does not think,but the supposed human who supposedly was thinking for it decided it was a high-priced athlete and they had to protect their investment somehow even if it meant endangering the animal to get some ROI.Just another object to the likes of the Mittster and his concubine.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

72. I doubt Rush Limpbaurg can run fast though!

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

7. Inconceivable that Ann Romney didn't know about the horse's condition

I know the Romneys have pretended that they knew nothing and that the blame should go to the trainer Eberling. But the Vet in his statement points out several factors. He himself said it's likely the horse had been lame for quite some time and would have shown signs of lameness. He noted that the horse's competitive scores had been in decline, that the horse's performance was very erratic, and that at one point it was taken out of competition for two and a half years. Most damning is the fact that he noted Ann Romney's horse insurance policy didn't cover this particular problem on the horse. If it had, I imagine the Romneys would have exercised it and not tried to palm it off on someone else in the hope they wouldn't notice the horse being unfit to compete.

[magical thyme]

22. it's not like they couldn't afford to write him off

and just plain retire the poor guy.

They didn't just try to steal from the buyer. They forced that horse to perform in severe pain caused by a deteriorating bone, causing further damage.

An insurance company would have sold him "as is" even if it meant shipping him to a slaughterhouse for a terrifying, inhumane death.

But Anne just luvs her horses, doesn't she. As long as they can do for her. And when they can't anymore, then just toss them out and move right on.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

23. And if the Romneys are such upstanding, honest Americans

why didn't they offer to buy the horse back or undo the sale, provided the defrauded buyer was willing? Even if they weren't aware of the horse's defect, even if they claim the trainer didn't ask them if they had insurance (unlikely in the case of an experienced trainer and something that should sound loud alarm bells in the mind of the owner if they do discuss the insurance policy) why didn't they offer to correct an obvious injustice? If the Romney's care about their reputation, why would they want to suffer even the mere appearance of wrongdoing?

[magical thyme]

25. very good point. nt

[riderinthestorm]

26. Insured horses must have their policy on the stall doors

or other prominent location where the horse is stabled, with the contact #s in full view, in case of an emergency. Its part of the insurance contract. Of course Ebeling knew the horse was insured and of course he knew about the condition of the horse.

They all knew the horse was a cripple and still tried to sell him for a lot of money fraudulently.

Its fraud and the Romneys and Ebeling are guilty as hell.

[magical thyme]

40. I read somewhere (maybe here)

that his insurance specifically did not cover this problem. They knew about it when they first bought him because it showed up on his x-rays back then. The vet at the time said he didn't expect it to cause a problem. They kept him on anti-inflammatories all along to prevent problems. Dollars to donuts they had him on bute or some other prohibited drug early on before the pain became severe enough to require the heavy duty, surgery-level pain killers.

Absolutely shameful. And now they're going to represent us at the Olympics. How fitting.

[riderinthestorm]

42. I presume they bought him as a non-competitive schoolmaster

to teach Ann the ropes. Problem is, they tried to sell him as competitive.

No way any of them were ignorant. They absolutely MUST have known. You can manage pain relief for any athlete (human or otherwise) but that must be spelled out up-front with a schoolmaster. Its 100% okay to sell a horse with issues (all horses have issues ) ,just tell the buyer.

[magical thyme]

44. from what I've read, they had been competing him

He wasn't Anne's schoolmaster; Baron was.

He was competing, but in recent years had been heading downhill and erratic in competition. And they were using anti-inflammatories from the begin to "prevent" problems. Which sounds to me like they had him on bute the whole time.

The woman who bought him was also a client of Ebeling. When she told him he didn't feel right, Ebeling blamed it on her riding!

[riderinthestorm]

45. Ick. Just double ick. I hope Ebeling suffers for all of this. rMoneys too.

So WE know how bad it is, yet its impossible to convey to the general public how bad this is. Where's Colbert when you need him?

[magical thyme]

48. yup

Since the USET vet testified against them, that should make their trip to the Olympics interesting. Hopefully they've been randomly tested for drugs a lot on their way there.

I think the general public understands drugging to win at sports is, um, not cool. Not in any sport. Maybe somebody needs to send it to Colbert and others. It made the NYT, so it's already out there....

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

56. Looks like the horse had a "pre-existing condition" that the insurance policy refused to cover

[Digit]

62. Yes, inquiring minds want to know why they didn't n/t

[Botany]

8. Ann Romney, "the horse liked his drugs."

After all that is what the Romneys' said about their Irish Setter who
was put in a kennel on the top of their car for a 12 hour trip to Canada.

[beac]

11. The Rmoneys: Animal Abusers, Child Torturers and Cheats.

What a lovely couple!

[MADem]

13. "He just scrambled on up to the medicine cabinet and opened the bottles himself!"

[Botany]

34. hard question is how does a horse fill a hypodermic needle?

[MADem]

47. Neigh! Neigh! He's a rich horse--he orders one of the SERVANTS to do it for him! nt

[magical thyme]

9. stupid...and disgraceful

Simply disgraceful.

Someone wrote the other day that the buyer should have known better than to use a vet recommended by Ebeling. But if that buyer was also a client of Ebeling, then certainly they were trusting him to do right by them.

I expect in his role as USET vet, Dr. Soule will be keeping a very close watch on Rafalca, now that Ebeling is a known cheat.

I am so effing sick to death of cheaters like the Romneys and what they do to horses. They ruin everything they touch.

Anne Romney may or may not have known which specific drugs were in her horse, or how many. But there's no way she didn't know that horse was not sound.

[Smilo]

10. Me thinks

they doped the wrong nag.

[lame54]

12. Hence the name

[onethatcares]

15. beat me to it, you did, you did.

I wonder if the odometers get turned backwards on the vehicles after each jaunt.

[Mz Pip]

14. Wonder if the Rmoney's got

a big tax deduction for the care and doping of this horse.

[nolabear]

16. I swear, these people have no souls.

The consistency here that everything is just that...a "thing", not an entity that deserves compassion and caring is staggering.

If the dog is inconvenient, just stick it on the roof, no worries.

If the horse is in pain and isn't performing, dope it and sell it--after all, it isn't useful any more and the buyer is a rube, not someone whose economics are impacted by the potential loss.

If the company isn't making a profit, pillage it and sell it off, don't worry about the people whose lives go down the drain.

If you can build your status by torturing a kid who might be gay or walking a blind man into a wall or humiliating your own son, no problemo.

If the country is full of people who need help and it's not to the financial advantage of your corporate cronies...

I am not kidding. These peopleare dangerous.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

17. Yup

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/18/romney-accelerate-foreclosures-to-allow-investors-to-buy-up-homes/

"...don’t try and stop the foreclosure process. Let it run its course and hit the bottom, allow investors to buy up homes, put renters in them, fix the homes up, and let it turn around and come back up.”

[Egalitarian Thug]

20. Hear, hear. Even if the company is making a profit, the nature of the LBO

(leveraged buy out) still has to hollow it out and sell it off.

These people, ALL OF THEM, are dangerous.

[barbtries]

21. that's a good recap.

they're slimy people.

[Jumping John]

18. The horse probably hurt his foot when Ann got him down from atop the horse trailer. And that makes

me wonder what kind of drugs the dog had in it's system.

[Maynar]

59. I'm guessing none.

Which is why Seamus headed for the sunrise first chance he got. He was clear-headed enough to know he needed to GTFO.

[goclark]

68. Did Seamus live a long life after his trip

to Canada?

Did he get sick on the way ~ these people do such mean and hateful thing I can't keep their dirty deeds straight.

[Maynar]

75. 1. There's no way to know.

I'd like to think he found someone who would treat him right.

2. Yes. He shat himself in the carrier. When it became obvious Willard pulled over, hosed the dog down and carried on.

3. Agreed.

[Egalitarian Thug]

19. Wow, ruling class thieves, imagine that. K&R

[barbtries]

27. now that i've read the entire declaration,

where do i go to find out whether the plaintiff prevailed in this case??

[muriel_volestrangler]

36. "Ann Romney was dropped from the lawsuit before it was settled out of court"

http://thehill.com/video/campaign/234217-ann-romney-recommends-a-positive-attitude-to-deal-with-stress-illness

[geardaddy]

28. Ohhh Willllllard.

[MADem]

30. OMG, that is brilliant! Some smart-asses should have fun with Willard and that show!

&feature=related

[geardaddy]

31. That's the first thing that popped into my mind.

Mr. Ed and Wilbur (or in this case, Willard).

[lunatica]

32. This story is sickening

It really does make me want to puke. I felt the same way about Seamus. How low a human being do you have to be to do these things to animals in your care? And these stories are just he ones we know about.

If one dog and horse were treated like that then all their animals are mistreated.

Fuck!

[CoffeeCat]

35. Let us look at the bright side friends...

...at least these classless fuck weasels never strapped that horse to the roof of their car and then drove to the Caymans to visit their money.

[Canuckistanian]

39. It baffles me

Even with all the money and advantages the rich have, they STILL lie and cheat to save a buck.

Why is that?

[upi402]

46. Why does a dog lick his junk?...

because he can.


my .02

[Maynar]

61. Because they don't STAY rich

by "giving it away."

I shit you not.

[jerseyjack]

49. Did Mitt buy the drugs from Limpballs?

[perdita9]

51. Ann and Mitt Romney abuse animals

That's the proof. Anyone who votes for these people advocates abusing animals.

[undeterred]

53. Drugged him so they could strap him to the top of the airplane during trips.

He loved it.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

54. Could have been worse

He could have sold it to Mad Dog Tannen.

[img][/img]

"I done shot that horse already!!!"

[colorado_ufo]

55. Well, that explains why she didn't object to the dog being strapped to the roof of the car.

I have been involved with horses for over 30 years and actively manage shows (both regional and national level). I also own horses and have bred and sold them. And THIS sucks! I have heard countless stories over the years about unethical sales practices, but when someone sells a horse for $125,000 under these conditions, and that someone is married to a person in prominent public office, it is incomprehensible and reprehensible. If she truly didn't know about the horse's problem or the drugs, that is just as bad, due to her distance and lack of involvement with her horses' welfare. Major league greed, all around.

Some "First Lady" this woman would make. What a perfect match for Mittens!

[crunch60]

57. I abhor all animal shows, horses, chimps, etc. I have personally witnessed abuse of animals, and

was an advocate for PAWS, Preforming Animal Welfare Society. I was instrumental in getting the Barasini Orangutangs removed from the show at the Stardust Hotel in Las Vegas several years ago. They were severely abused. A hidden camera documented the abuse. The tape was then given to Hard Copy, and it was shown on national television at the time.

I can imagine the Romney's engaging in this time of behavior, because they lack empathy and compassion for humans and animals. No different than the torture of the Tennessee Walking Horse.

http://forthetnwalkinghorse.blogspot.com/

Please, do not support animal shows of any kind. Few people know what goes on behind the scenes.

[colorado_ufo]

71. I agree with you in almost all respects, but I would like to tell you about our horse shows.

Peruvian Horse breed shows (that is, no other breeds are shown) have extremely strict rules concerning registration and showing. As for shows, here are a few:

1 - Shows are drug free. To get extra drug-free points, it is mandated that at least five horses are chosen at random and drug tested by a qualified veterinarian, with official witnesses.

2 - Our shows are spaced far enough apart to prevent horses from being dragged from one show to another.

3 - There is a minimum amount of time that must be observed between the end of one day's classes and the start of the next, so that the horses can rest.

4 - Adequate stall facilities and arena facilities must be used, and the Show Steward must inspect the facilities and attest to their adequacy and safety in his/her official after-show report.

5 - Our horses are shown WITHOUT shoes (barefoot) and are shown as naturally as possible. We do not "pull" (thin) manes, do not let tails drag the ground, do not braid, do not make the horse suffer in any way. We would never, ever dream of breaking and setting tails or other such practices (which I consider barbaric).

6 - Any horse that is trained with artificial devices (weighted shoes, rattles, soring, etc.) is banned from the show ring for LIFE. A trainer and/or owner that abuses horses is banned from the show ring. Our pride is in our horses' natural beauty and ability, not something trained or "gimmicked" into them. We want to use the best horses to breed into the future, not just the horses with the most show ribbons. OWNERS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEIR TRAINERS DO.

7 - If any horse is seen to suffer abuse at a show, the trainer and owner are evicted from the show grounds immediately!

We love, truly love, our horses and would do nothing to compromise their health, safety, or happiness. If you are ever at a Peruvian Horse breed show, ask the Show Manager for a tour of the barn. You will see happy horses, on "vacation" from the ranch. Meet the owners, who are friendly and love to talk about their horses and teach you about the breed, which is considered by all breeds to be the "smoothest riding horse in the world." Our shows are RELAXED, family-friendly, and have show classes (NO cattle, no jumping, no races) for all ages of riders.

My "girls" love to go to a show (we limit the shows to no more than three a year) and can't wait to jump into the trailer, ears forward, with a whinney

We pride ourselves on doing it right.

For more breed info, please visit the North American Peruvian Horse Association at www.napha.net

[AllyCat]

66. Correct drug is XYLAZINE or Rompun. Commonly used as a sedative for procedures like

floating (filing) teeth, stitches, etc. Horses' teeth grow and in domestication, must be filed level by a vet so they can chew their food properly.

Any horse might have Rompun in its system for legitimate purpose.

However, Rompun alone is typically enough to sedate a horse. To have all that other stuff in there is insane.

[TNLib]

69. I don't understand why people who abuse animals even have animals.

If you don't like animals then don't own or have animals. Why torture them?

They could have donated the horse and used it as a tax write off. They just sound like people that are abusive to their animals.

[cutroot]

70. Lying for the lord is acceptable behavior for them

http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith's denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by "anti-Mormons" and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley's dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine, Mormonism's history seems replete with examples of lying. Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light. This is part of the larger package of things that lead many to describe Mormonism as a cult. "Lying for the lord" is part of Mormonism's larger deceptive mainstreaming tactics, and conversion numbers would drastically lower if important Mormon beliefs were fully disclosed to investigators.

[crunch60]

73. Mitt and Ann Romney have the elitist, priviliged attitude, that they can use

and abuse anything and anybody that doesn't fit into their social, economic status.
They just smirk at the 99%, have little empathy, lack compassion, they are the despicable tyrants in our society. Can you imagine this couple in the White House?
Very disturbing thought.

[valerief]

76. Well, they'd have to drug the horse that much in order to strap it to the car roof. nt

[Enrique]

77. kick