Confused about the timeline of F&F

[cynatnite]

There is not a lot being said about Eric Holder stopping Operation Fast & Furious. I know he testified that as soon as he found out about it, he put a stop to it. Did he mean about the operation itself or about the killing of Brian Terry? I'm looking for some clarification here.

It seemed to me that Eric Holder stopped the program when he was informed of it.

Issa has never called one person from the Bush Administration (which is who began the operation and ran the bulk of it.) He's also asking for documents about internal deliberations which also have the names of informants. I also heard he was also asking for transcripts of deliberations of federal grand juries as well. These things can have a chilling effect on conducting investigations and protecting informants.

[tabatha]

1. There is a wiki page about F & F.

[cynatnite]

2. I read through it, but it didn't answer my question. n/t

[The Wielding Truth]

3. I heard that it was illegal for Issa to demand those files.

[chowder66]

4. Here is an article I'm making my way through

http://fortmchenryii.blogspot.com/2012/06/your-everything-you-need-to-know.html

not sure if there is anything there to answer your questions.

[kentuck]

5. Rather than giving the documents to Issa...

I think Holder should give them to the press. Let the names fall where they may...

[cynatnite]

7. Well, it's agains the law for a reason. n/t

[Spazito]

6. I found, in trying to get the whole picture, I had to start by researching...

Project Gunrunner, under whose umbrella Fast and Furious is found. There was a DOJ review of Project Gunrunner (ATF) done in 2010, it is somewhat outdated given all that has happened since then but it does give good information as to the why, the results, the recommendations, etc.

Here's the link for those interested:

http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/ATF/e1101.pdf

Under Project Gunrunner were operations such as Fast & Furious and Wide Receiver.

Operation Wide Receiver was begun in late 2006 and ran until some time in 2007. During the time of Operation Wide Receiver, guns such as AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s, once moved into Mexico, were lost. NO ARRESTS were made during this time while under the Bush regime. It was only in 2009, under the Obama Administration, was a review of Operation Wide Receiver done and in 2010 indictments began.

Operation Fast & Furious began in 2009 and went until 2011. Wikipedia actually has good information on how this came about, who approved what, etc, so I am just going to copy and past snippets and provide the link where I found both the info on Operation Wide Receiver and Operation Fast & Furious:

"2009–2011: Operation Fast and Furious

On October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. to discuss U.S. strategy for combating Mexican drug cartels. Participating in the meeting were Deputy Attorney General David W. Ogden, Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer, ATF Director Kenneth E. Melson, Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Administrator Michele Leonhart, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Robert Mueller and the top federal prosecutors in the Southwestern border states. They decided on a strategy to identify and eliminate entire arms trafficking networks rather than low-level buyers.[3][28][29] Those at the meeting did not suggest using the "gunwalking" tactic, but ATF supervisors would soon use it in an attempt to achieve the desired goals.[30] The effort, beginning in November, would come to be called Operation Fast and Furious for the successful film franchise, because some of the suspects under investigation operated out of an auto repair store and street raced.[3]

The strategy of targeting high-level individuals, which was already ATF policy, would be implemented by Bill Newell, special agent in charge of ATF's Phoenix field division. In order to accomplish it, the office decided to use "gunwalking" as laid out in a January 2010 briefing paper. This was said to be allowed under ATF regulations and given legal backing by U.S. Attorney for the District of Arizona Dennis K. Burke. It was additionally approved and funded by a Justice Department task force.[3] However, long-standing DOJ and ATF policy has required arms shipments to be intercepted.[4][5]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal



As to the documents being demanded by the repubs and their focus re attempting to find AG Holder in contempt, I found this letter from the Deputy Attorney General to Issa on the issue of the documents they are demanding that President Obama invoked Executive Privilege:

snippet

"After you rejected the Department's recent offers of additional accommodations, you stated that the Committee intends to proceed with its scheduled meeting to consider a resolution citing the Attorney General for contempt for failing to comply with the Committee's subpoena of October 11, 2011. I write now to inform you that the President has asserted executive privilege over the relevant post-February 4, 2011, documents.

We regret that we have arrived at this point, after the many steps we have taken to address the Committee's concerns and to accommodate the Committee's legitimate oversight interests regarding Operation Fast and Furious. Although we are deeply disappointed that the Committee appears intent on proceeding with a contempt vote, the Department remains willing to work with the Committee to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution of the outstanding issues.

Over the last fourteen months, the Department has provided a significant amount of information to the Committee in an extraordinary effort to accommodate the Committee's legitimate oversight interests. The Department has provided the Committee with over 7,600 pages of documents and has made numerous high-level officials available for public congressional testimony, transcribed interviews, and briefings. Attorney General Holder has answered congressional questions about Fast and Furious during nine public hearings, including two before the Committee. The Department has devoted substantial resources to responding to
these congressional inquiries.

In addition, upon learning of questions about the tactics used in Fast and Furious, the Attorney General promptly asked the Department's Acting Inspector General to open an investigation into the operation. This investigation continues today. We expect that the Inspector General's report will further help the Department to understand how these mistakes occurred and to ensure that they do not occur again."


more good info in the letter found on the link below.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/20/12317893-obama-invokes-executive-privilege-over-doj-documents

I hope the info in this posts helps at least a little.

[Lurks Often]

8. A couple of additional points

Wide Receiver involved approximately 450 guns and was done in cooperation with the Mexican government and Mexican law enforcement.

Fast & Furious involved approximately 1800-2000 guns and was done WITHOUT the knowledge of the Mexican government and Mexican law enforcement.

This is not something that was cooked up in the last couple of months, this has been going in Congress since Feb 2011.

Another source to review is the LA Times, they appear to be the first major news organization to start looking into this.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/atf-fast-furious-sg,0,3828090.storygallery

Some of us have been following this off and on for over a year now. If Holder had fired a couple of people and turned over what the committee subpoenaed or had gone to court and let a judge decide what had to be turned over, this would have died a quiet death a year ago. Now it is a contempt of Congress preceding 4.5 months before the Presidential election.

In addition to the House investigation, the Senate is also looking into this, the Mexican Government has started their own investigation and apparently the union representing the rank & file Border Patrol agents has asked for Holder's resignation. While one can certainly cite partisanship for the House & Senate investigations, partisanship is much harder to believe in the case of the Mexican government. They are unlikely to want a Republican President.

[Spazito]

9. Why isn't Issa investigating the fact that NO indictments occurred during the Bush admin...

as a result of Operation Wide Receiver where the guns went 'missing' after entering into Mexico and indictments only began AFTER the Obama administration was in power?

Would you not think that should be of great concern?

The documents the repubs are demanding and have been covered by President Obama invoking Executive Privilege are limited to post Feb, 2011 and are related to internal communications. The DOJ/Holder turned over 7,600 documents to the committee. One key point is that Operation Fast & Furious, as implemented, was a decision made, not by the DOJ but by Bill Newell, special agent in charge of ATF's Phoenix field division.

The initial discussion about Fast & Furious which occurred at the DOJ level did NOT include any suggestion to use the "gunwalking" tactic.

[Lurks Often]

10. Based on the Wikipedia link you provided

We have about a 12-14 month gap where nothing happened. I'd like to know what occurred during that time frame. Although reading between the lines in the Wikipedia link there is the suggestion that the US Atty wanted people higher up the chain then the worker bees that did the straw puchase.

I don't care if there is a D or R after the name or if this was hatched by ATF and other "non-political" persons. I want to see all of the people who came up with this remarkably bad idea, fired and if possible, prosecuted

As with just about everything related to Wide Receiver, Fast & Furious and any other program related to those to, there are a lot of gaps in what is publicly known and I prefer, as much as possible to look at the unfiltered or raw information, not what's left after politicians, of either party, get done slanting it to suit their purpose.

Supposedly all the documents prior to Fast & Furious WERE provided to the committee.

The Committee has subpoenaed some 70,000 documents, so approximately 10% was provided. I have a problem believing that the other 90% are all covered by Executive Privilege, nor do I believe that a court will uphold the President's & DOJ's assertion of Executive Privilege of that many documents.

I believe this entire disaster started as the wild idea of senior regional ATF management, the US Atty's office in AZ and probably a few people in the FBI, who would have been needed to make sure that the gun sales made it through the NICS background check.

Like I said in my prior post if Holder had fired a couple of people and turned over what the committee subpoenaed or had gone to court and let a judge decide what had to be turned over, this would have died a quiet death a year ago. Now it is a contempt of Congress preceding 4.5 months before the Presidential election. It's the apparent attempt at the cover up that is causing the problems.

[Spazito]

11. I have happened upon your other posts on this...

and I suspect we have little to agree upon on this issue. Your post say "attempted cover-up" while it is clear this is merely a witch-hunt by the republicans that has little to do with the Gunrunner Project/Fast & Furious/Wide Receiver and everything to do with the upcoming election and the DOJ's work on stopping the repub tactics re voter suppression in states like Florida.

We shall see what fallout, if any, this faux scandal will bring to the President and the Democrats.

[Lurks Often]

12. We shall indeed see what the next couple of weeks bring, should be interesting

regardless of one's viewpoint.

On edit: My compliments on being able to politely disagree with someone without it turning nasty and personal as so many disagreements seem to here.