So two pro-Trump responses I've seen circulating on social media...

[Orrex]

The first is US Code 1182 Inadmissible Aliens, which Trump's chumps take to mean he has full power to ban any or all immigration regardless of his conflicted business dealings, etc.

The second is a reference to Obama's six-month ban on Iraqi refugees in 2011. I confess that the details of that episode elude me, and Google is now clogged with hundreds of mutually referential right-leaning sites repeating the same paragraph.

So help me out, please: there's no way that the troglodytes I'm arguing with have come up with these examples on their own, but how do I respond? So far I've gotten fair mileage out of noting that Trump has appointed an actual Nazi to the National Security Council, but I'd like to have a fuller reply available.


Thanks!

[shraby]

1. I heard it mentioned on the t.v. that it was a ban to take the time to set up a proper

extreme vetting system for them to be able to come to this country.

Otherwise I don't have a clue.

[underpants]

2. Trump Obama Carter

Trump - Obama - Carter. Differences primer/summary

No, Barack Obama and Jimmy Carter didn't do the same thing as Donald Trump's Muslim ban

From The Mirror UK - some pop ups so I'm posting the text below.

What Donald Trump is doing (2017)
*Ban entry to the US for people born in seven majority Muslim countries - Syria, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen - including holders of legal green cards and visas - for 90 days
*Suspending the Syrian refugee plan indefinitely
*Suspending entire refugee plan for 120 days
*Bans entry to the US for dual-nationality passport holders - meaning citizens of the above countries who also hold, for example, a British passport, are also banned for 90 days.
*Prioritize Christian refugees over Muslims
*Capped refugee total to 50,000
*Did it out of the blue
Trump came up with his Muslim ban following the Orlando nightclub shooting, an attack committed not by refugees or migrants, but by a US citizen who was born in New York.
*Of all the fatal terror attacks carried out on US soil since 9/11, exactly zero have been committed by immigrants from the seven majority Muslim countries targeted by the ban


What Barack Obama did (2011)
Paused approvals of refugee applications from Iraq for a period of six months after two Iraqi al-Qaeda terrorists were discovered living as refugees in Kentucky.

What he didn't do
*Base it on religion
Obama's order - which was done with very little fanfare - selected Iraqi nationals based on geography and a specific event, not religion.
*Do it out of the blue
It was done in response to a specific event, and to allow FBI agents enough to gather fingerprints from captured roadside bombs, which they used to toughen their refugee screening process

What Jimmy Carter did (1979)
Placed sanctions on Iran after they held 52 American diplomats hostage for 444 days
The sanctions included a block on all future visas issued to Iranian citizens

What he didn't do
*Base it on religion
The block was targeted at Iranian nationals, not Muslims
*Do it out of the blue
Carter's sanctions were the culmination of a long-running escalation of tensions between the US and Iran.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/no-barack-obama-jimmy-carter-9717520

[pkdu]

6. and Obama/Carter actions were done with full review/input of affected Agencies

instead of a fever-dream screed written by a white supremacist fascist and pushed under Twitlers snout for signature.

[Orrex]

10. Well that's excellent!

Thank you very much--that's exactly what I needed!

[underpants]

13. DU

Wise...and otherwise, as I say

Yes I found it quite handy.

[moda253]

14. Hope you don't mind

I copied your post to my FB feed.

[underpants]

15. Sure. Be my guest.

I plastered that on any dumbass talking point post that I saw yesterday

[JimGinPA]

18. See, This Post Is Just Another Example...

Of why we should be able to Rec posts down thread.

[underpants]

19. :-)

[Lucinda]

22. TY KNR

[NotThisTime]

23. I believe UK/Canadian dual citizens have special exemption to enter

Australia has also applied for the exemption

[uppityperson]

3. Here's a link for the second

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/no-barack-obama-jimmy-carter-9717520?service=responsive

[onlyadream]

4. Wow, it's not just me

I'm literally in the same spot, trying to google my way into facts, but I'm getting all RW crap clogging up the real info.

[Leghorn21]

5. ABC News, 2013:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/al-qaeda-kentucky-us-dozens-terrorists-country-refugees/story?id=20931131

[fishwax]

7. Here's a response to the second of these points. (It wasn't a ban, but there was a slowdown)

The slowdown was the result of extra vetting/cross-checking, including of people who were already in the country, following the arrest of a couple of Al Quaeda terrorists who were from Iraq and were living in Kentucky.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-trump-refugee-policy-fact-check-2011-20170129-story.html

[TrekLuver]

8. The Trashpot crew is using this Obama bullshit as cover. Since when do they respect anything

that the Obama administration did? Obama banned Iraqis because a terror cell was found in Kentucky...we would of been better off just banning Kentucky (LOL). Also note that Obama did not go around the country proclaiming that he wanted to ban Iraqis...unlike Trashpot.

He claimed it wasn't a Muslim ban...yet he is on the record as saying that is exactly what it is..not to mention Rudy let the cat out of the bag on Jeanne Pierro's show. Donnie called him up and said hey I want to institute a Muslim ban figure it out how I can do it legally. Rudy said this....so they looked at the countries that are terrorist hot spots and they used the Obama list as a starting point to give them cover. So far I've gotten nothing back from these tighty righties when I advise what Rudy said on Pierro...after all it's from a "reputable source".

And then last is that these countries that he's banned ....ZERO Americans have been killed by them. Why is not Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Turkey on the list (among others)? Oh because he has financial ties there.

[LuvLoogie]

9. Here is another analysis debunking RW false equivalency

http://heavy.com/news/2017/01/barack-obama-ban-refugees-did-iraq-iraqi-muslim-trump-jimmy-carter-iran-iranian-immigration/

[Orrex]

11. Thank you!

That's also very useful!

[Ms. Toad]

12. Important points:

Both were narrowly drawn, limited bans on for very specific diplomatic (Carter) or safety (Obama) reasons. Both received full vetting of all of the agencies involved in implementing them (and the department of justice for legality).

[treestar]

16. On Obama's Order

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028563834

[treestar]

17. I doubt a court would interpret 1182

to allow unconstitutional categorizing. Would take some research. I wonder if the government is using that in the court cases. It would be a big challenge to be a government attorney in these cases. Not every lawyer is willing to bend reality like Kellyanne, etc.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

20. What stands out to me in your post is that you actually know people of the other side

that are trying to have a fact-based argument? Never met a wingnut like that

[TCJ70]

21. I wrote this regarding the 2011 program changes...

Let's take a few moments to discuss the latest talking point surrounding Trumps executive order temporarily banning immigration from 7 Muslim countries. The gist of it comes down "Obama did the same thing in 2011" usually without naming the specific program or act in question. From what I've gathered, people are referring to the Visa Waiver Program Improvement and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act (Link for more information about this program: https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-visitors/visa-waiver-program/visa-waiver-program-improvement-and-terrorist-travel-prevention-act-faq ).

There are a few things to note about some key differences in that program change versus what President Trump has done:
1. The 2011 change was not an outright ban across the board. While refugee applications were put on hold for 6 months, the two other categories of people were still allowed to travel freely. Those categories being non-immigrants (temporary Visa holders) and permanent residents (green card holders, etc.) This move to hold up refugee applications did result in some bad outcomes. People did die waiting for their applications to go through. That's unacceptable as well.
2. The VWP change only excluded certain countries from the Visa Waiver Program. Essentially, all this meant is that previously people were allowed entry to the country without a valid Visa on a temporary basis and after the act took effect they needed to report to an embassy for a Visa interview for vetting and approval or denial of entry to the United States.
3. The 2011 changes only put refugee applications on hold in one country. We're talking about a subset of people from one country. As I said before, this also had disastrous effects for some people who were held up.

In contrast, what we're seeing from Trumps executive order is the opposite of what happened with the 2011 act. Anyone born in the countries on the ban list, regardless of paperwork/Visa status/green card ownership is being held up in some cases...turned back in others. This is not just affecting refugees, but US citizens as well, because of the vagaries surrounding the executive order. This highlights yet another instance of the Trump administration practicing the "ready, fire, aim" method of leadership.

Still concerning is also the conspicuous absence of places like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Jordan, and Egypt from the list. Saudi Arabia being the home country of 15 of 19 of the 9/11 hijackers with the other from the other three. These are also places that Trump has business interests so travel bans would likely be a bad move for him. Say what you want about him using the same list Obama made, but he's the President now, and he made national security a big issue of his. He owns this action.

Speaking of that. How many citizens of the countries on the ban list have committed acts of terrorism on US soil? The answer is 0. None. (http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/29/us/refugee-terrorism-trnd/) National security is a worthwhile conversation and focus to have, but we need to be honest about it. So far, that appears to be a struggle for the Trump administration.

The link below is to an NPR show that aired today dealing with the executive order. The relevant portion starts at 8:30 in. Please take time to learn about the actual effects of this executive order and the harm it does not only to refugees but also to US citizens.

https://www.wbez.org/?utm_source=link&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=Web-Share&replayer_show_id=d50247aa-2e4d-4992-aa4b-22eb04a73f80

[erpowers]

24. Just Because You Can Does Not Make It Right

My response to the US Code 1182 argument would be just because you can do something does not make doing that thing right. The ban is the wrong course of action. In addition, the countries that are listed under his ban have not produced a Muslim terrorist in about 30 years while the countries that are not on the list, which all seem to have some form of business deal with Donald Trump, have produced multiple Muslim terrorists. 15 of the 19 terrorist who attacked the United States on 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia. Individuals from many of the other countries not on the ban list have killed multiple Americans. The Muslim ban is a bad idea, but is also seems to be influenced by Trump's business dealings.