Some thoughts on undocumented workers (tRump's EO)

[SHRED]

Here's my response to a "right of center" friend who was trying to justify the arrest and deportation of the AZ mother. We live in SoCal so this is written with Mexicans in mind.

I hope I expressed myself clearly and drew a clear line where I stand.
What do you think?

The current President himself promised not to tear families apart and to focus limited ICE resources on serious and violent undocumented criminals. I agree with that. With his immigration Executive Order his promise has vanished.
Communities are less safe now that less ICE resources are available to go after criminals.
Communities are less safe for fear of reporting crime and being deported themselves.
Policing by local law enforcement becomes less safe with this intensified mistrust with the communities they patrol.

These are few of the consequences of this change and.what is now happening.

Yes undocumented workers using fake Social Security numbers is a felony. I'm not excusing that. What I am saying is that either we build huge detention facilities (Section 5, article (a) of Trump's Executive Order) spend billions more, and essentially crackdown in a police-state fashion that tears apart otherwise law abiding families and creates a chaos and mistrust in communities or we focus our current resources on serious violent undocumented immigrants. I choose the latter.

Also, Social Security has an E-Verify employers are suppose to use. The problem is that many don't and what many employers do instead is criminal. They hire illegally on purpose knowing the undocumented employee has no power (especially rampant in the construction field) and delay a week or two of paychecks with the promise of a bonus to complete the job. Job gets nearly done and they call ICE, job site is raided, and the employer gets to appear 'law abiding' while pocketing the pay theft. This is just one example of exploitation.
Also, every working person with a Social Security number, even if fake, contributes a portion of their pay into SS. Those using fake numbers or other's will never collect the SS money they contribute.
I'm not advocating for people residing here against the law and using SS numbers that aren't theirs, but what I am advocating is we establish a clear immigration policy that provides a clear path to working legally and/or citizenship. Such a bill was passed by the Senate a few years ago but the House held it up.
I am dead set against the rise of the current police-state that makes our country less safe.
It's about priorities and being decent humane people in my view.

[Ms. Toad]

1. Just a word of caution -

E-Verify is not an accurate or progressive solution. https://www.cato.org/blog/serious-problems-e-verify.

Ultimately I believe the right to work (or live) should not be dependent on an accident of birth. So I am opposed to anything that imposes artificial barriers on those choices - or createsa situation that requires the cooperation of other parties for an act of conscientious objection.

My father was a conscientous objector (both to conscription & to the I-9 form). As to the former, ultimately the choice to take a stand of conscience was his: comply or face the penalties. (He was able to obtain formal classification as a conscientious objector, so he didn't have to do jail time - but he was first in his state to formally obtain that status.) As to the latter, he could only take a stand of conscience with the willingness of his employer to also take a stand based on conscience, because all of the non-compliance penalties are on the employer. (Which it did. But not many employers would be willing to do so.) The E-Verify, similarly, places the burden of non-compliance on the employer.

[SHRED]

2. E-verify can't be tightened up??

And also...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028631205

Plus...Fuck the Koch Brother's CATO Institute. They are liars.


.

[Ms. Toad]

3. You like Huffington post better?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-bier/why-everyone-should-fear-e-verify_b_1610057.html

How about the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/03/e-verify-is-supposed-to-stop-undocumented-employment-it-could-also-harm-legal-workers/?utm_term=.4c7deeafc902

Aside from which, as I noted, I find the entire I-9/e-Verify process morally repugnant - and moreso becuase it places the burden of compliance on the employer.

[SHRED]

4. Why shouldn't the burden be on the employer?

[Ms. Toad]

7. I explained that in my first post.

It punishes someone else for my choices.

Systems like I-9 and E-verify not only tend to be used against people of color, or people who speak Spanish more fluently than English, the can also be used in more subtle ways to discriminate against people legally entitled to work by providing the employer with information that can be used to select for or against people born outside the US, for example.

I have not yet made the decision to refuse to comply with I-9 verification - but my father has. Rather than punish my father - as should happen when one carries out an illegal act as a matter of conscious - the punishment falls on his employer.

I fundamentally disagree with regulating the behavior of adults by punishing a third party in an effort to get that third party to do the government's work of enforcment.

[SHRED]

5. How difficult can this be to fix?

Unbelievable.
I suspect it's messed up for no good reasons other than as cover to let businesses off the hook. In other words...manufactured problems.

[Ms. Toad]

8. Similar issues with the TSA lists, or voter lists.

Large lists of people with similar names and histories are hard to manage accurately - especially when you are gathering the information from secondary sources.

Ever had your credit history tangled up with someone else's? My spouse had a social security number that is one digit of from another person by the same name in the same statse,

Medical records? My spouse has the same name and birthdate as someone else (different state). The insurance company actually sent her medication for the other person by the same name and birthdate - AFTER several communications informing them that our policy terminated on X date, and that they had inadvertently opened up a policy for the new person based on name and birthdate alone. So we know the other person by the same name and birthdate has a mental health illness (based on the medication sent).

How about geaneology research? I can't tell you how many incorrect family trees I've found because the software makes suggestions - others accept them, and then they start propogating.

Sort of like the lies the Trump administration tells. Once it is out there (as many inaccurate classifications are), it is very hard to unwind and get correct.

[rgbecker]

10. Do you also find the collection of income tax system morally repugnant?

And sales tax? These are all now normal tasks required of employers and businessmen and thankfully generally taken on by the owner class. Gobs of mistakes are made daily with all these systems, but the idea of refusing to identify where money withheld from a workers paycheck is going doesn't seem like a very high place for moral grounds.

I once had a relative that decided to use my SS number to get a job in order to avoid eventually getting a W-2 and having to file taxes. Where was my moral out on this? I suppose I should have consulted with my Minister.

[Ms. Toad]

11. That's not the same thing.

Sales tax is a direct obligation on the vendor. I've been one - I know. If I sell items within my state, I am obligated to register as a vendor and to collect tax on the items I sell. It isn't about a tax on the buyer - it is about a tax on the goods (it's a vendor's obligation, not the buyer's).

Income taxes are forwarded, by your employer - at your direction - to the state. Depending on how I complete my W-4, I can cut them employer completely out of the loop - because the amount the employer withholds is based on how much I tell them to withhold.

If I choose to claim enough deductions (or assert I am exempt from withholding) and then never file a tax return to pay what I owe, the IRS is not going to come after my employer - it is going to come after me. In other words the income tax withholding isn't an analagous situation. The withholding system does not punish my employer (as a means of coercing me to behave) should I choose, for example, to ensure that the money withheld for me only amounts to approximately half of my actual tax liability so that when I file the IRS does not have easy access to the ~50% of my taxes that fund the war - as some friends do as an act of conscientious objection.

As to your last question - I have no clue what moral dilemna you are suggesting. If it wasn't your income, you are not obligated to pay taxes on it. There are mechanisms for reporting incorrectly attributed income

[rgbecker]

12. Are you suggesting the employer is under no obligation to report payments ..

to employees or others via 1099's and w-2s? I don't believe you can cut the employer out of the loop and in fact he can request a SS or tax number to report such payments. Maybe you can reduce the withholding but the employer is going to report what he has paid out and the recipient will be on the hook to file a return at the least (Given a sufficient level of income). I don't think there is a hairs difference morally between doing this and going through the e-verify system to make sure the employee is giving a working/valid tax id number.

[TrekLuver]

6. This is the crux of it: The current President himself promised not to tear families apart and to

focus limited ICE resources on serious and violent undocumented criminals.

Trashbag's lies have lies.

If we would have addressed this immigration situation YEARS AGO like we should of..then maybe law abiding people wouldn't be "forced" or backed into a corner to commit this fraud just get work.

[Ms. Toad]

9. I concur.

I don't know if it will make any difference though Far too many Trump supporters (and, truth be told, people on DU) buy into the isolationist crap. If you're here and didn't follow the proper procedures (even though such procedures were never available to people brought here by their parents, for example - or for refugees from countries whose dictatorial leaders we happen to like), you deserve to be shipped back home.