Stop saying Donald Trump is mentally ill when what you mean is that he's a bad person

[loyalsister]

we can’t keep conflating bad behaviour or reprehensible views with mental illness.

Every time we willingly blur the line between raging arsehole and mentally ill person, we do two very dangerous things: we increase stigma surrounding real psychiatric conditions, and we excuse people for their terrible behaviour on the basis that they had to have been “out of their minds” to think or act that way.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/donald-trump-mentally-ill-bad-person-pop-psychology-goldwater-rule-dangerous-actions-a7581736.html

[MFM008]

1. He is mentally ill

I know mentally Ill. Battled it all my life from age 7.
There is a diagnosis sheet with his name on it that has MULTIPLE conclusions.
He is mentally ill AND a bad person.

[AgadorSparticus]

3. +1,000!!!

[loyalsister]

9. Mental illness is not pornography

You don't know it when you see it. Diagnosis requires personal interaction to evaluate results of various inventories, and directly observe. No one who is desperately trying to make this diagnosis has done that. It's unethical and exploitive and it demonizes people who live with mental illness.

[MFM008]

10. after 2 years of psychology

and personal experience , many times I do recognize it even after brief conversations.

[loyalsister]

19. 2 yrs?

I have a few more and I have friends who have a range of disabilities, including mental illness. I would not be so arrogant to believe I could diagnose a single one without a clinical evaluation.

[kwassa]

20. I can diagnose Donald from right here.

And so can many. And, many have done, those with real professional expertise.

[loyalsister]

24. You can diagnosis to your hearts delight

That doesn't make it valid, or ethical, or even reasonable.

[kwassa]

28. I think it is both valid and reasonable.

Narcissists don't believe that there is anything wrong with them. Therefore, they never seek mental health counseling.

By your standards, they can never be validly diagnosed, as they have not been professionally diagnosed via such counseling.

Therefore, they never even exist.

I believe they can be diagnosed, but it must be done from afar, as there is no other way to do it.

[loyalsister]

33. People are desperate to get rid of 45

I get that. But this mental illness claim is not legitimate and is actually quite bigoted.

[kwassa]

38. This mental illness claim is completely legitimate.

Trump exhibits every one of these characteristics.

According to the DSM-5, individuals with NPD have most or all of the following symptoms, typically without commensurate qualities or accomplishments:[8][11]

Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment from others
Fixated on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc.
Self-perception of being unique, superior and associated with high-status people and institutions
Needing constant admiration from others
Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others
Exploitative of others to achieve personal gain
Unwilling to empathize with others' feelings, wishes, or needs
Intensely envious of others and the belief that others are equally envious of them
Pompous and arrogant demeanor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

[rug]

73. Cautionary statement for DSM IV - TR

The specified diagnostic criteria for each mental disorder are offered as guidelines for making diagnoses, because it has been demonstrated that the use of such criteria enhances agreement among clinicians and investigators. The proper use of these criteria requires specialized clinical training that provides both a body of knowledge and clinical skills.

These diagnostic criteria and the DSM-IV Classification of mental disorders reflect a consensus of current formulations of evolving knowledge in our field. They do not encompass, however, all the conditions for which people may be treated or that may be appropriate topics for research efforts.

The purpose of DSM-IV is to provide clear descriptions of diagnostic categories in order to enable clinicians and investigators to diagnose, communicate about, study, and treat people with various mental disorders. It is to be understood that inclusion here, for clinical and research purposes, of a diagnostic category such as Pathological Gambling or Pedophilia does not imply that the condition meets legal or other nonmedical criteria for what constitutes mental disease, mental disorder, or mental disability. The clinical and scientific considerations involved in categorization of these conditions as mental disorders may not be wholly relevant to legal judgments, for example, that take into account such issues as individual responsibility, disability determination, and competency.

Reprinted with permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth Edition. Copyright 1994 American Psychiatric Association

[Eyeball_Kid]

58. I think you're going overboard with your criticism.

Both of you are right. There IS a checklist of sorts in the DSM V. The checklist does serve to give the reader a general understanding of the cluster of behaviors that are necessary to make the diagnosis. So the matter looks simple to some, and to some degree, it is.
What's perhaps irritating is that folks are using a long-established from of scientific data collection: field observations. Folks SEE Trumpy say and do things that fit with checklists. That's valuable information. If you have experience in mental health, you know how valuable observations are, along with their more colloquial descriptors.

But to use a diagnosis soley dependent on observation lends itself to reckless conclusions, eh? There's Trumpy's heretofore unknown medical state, and we know nothing of his biochemical proclivities, and whether ANY of these cause embellishments of those behavior clusters mentioned above.

In any subsequent analysis, all of the carefully chosen words that describe Trumpy's state of mind can be reduced to the functional: he's dangerous and can't do the job a day longer. And, regardless of etiology, he's a nut case.

[lame54]

82. You may not realize it...

But you keep diagnosing him as NOT mentally ill

[mythology]

40. And Bill Frist was sure he could diagnose Terri Schiavo

[kwassa]

41. and you can take all the tea in China.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

42. I have a good friend who is a PHD clinical psychologist and professor.

He says, unequivocally, Trump is mentally ill.

He is a serious guy and not prone to exaggeration.

[LenaBaby61]

46. I have a good friend who is a PHD clinical psychologist and professor.

"He says, unequivocally, Trump is mentally ill.

He is a serious guy and not prone to exaggeration."


Rotten, racist, evil AND damaged beyond repair.

[MFM008]

23. Yeah 2 years worth of Psychology

out of 4 year degree.

[MFM008]

61. That's what I was

Talking about.
I don't have to be so arrogant to diagnose one.
I have been one.

[Demit]

12. I don't understand how speaking of one person in particular tars everyone with the same brush.

[loyalsister]

29. It's bigotry in action

N-lover is one I heard in elementary school because I had a black friend. It was hate by proxy.

[Demit]

37. That's not an exact analogy.

The analogy would be if the person making the slur had called you a n----r. I get that the person's intent was to show you contempt, but it wasn't for being black. There was a distinction there.

My point is, labeling someone with being a narcissistic personality is not an automatic slur on people who suffer from other mental disorders, disorders that are quite distinct from it.

[loyalsister]

63. People are saying mentally ill, dementia,

I've even heard someone say they think he has a learning disability. The effort to apply the stigma people with those disorders to 45 says more about what people think of people with those disorders more than anything.

[MFM008]

67. Thats a pretty broad brush

Like I said, many of us are familiar with these disorders because we have them
or know someone who does or did.
The difference is we admit having them.
There is no contempt when you recognize these problems.
Thats what diagnosis is.
My local mental heatlh facility wanted to hire me as a counselor at a good salary and benefits.
I turned them down because I have enough dealing with my own issues.
I couldnt take on anyone elses.

[bdamomma]

49. This seems to be on going issue here

regarding his mental state, yes a person cannot be diagnosed unless he goes through proper mental health screening.

There have been many articles that have been posted about his mental state. My question is he a threat to himself or others? Makes you wonder.

I am not a professional in mental health. I will leave his diagnosis to the discretion of those professionals. I wish his family would take more of a role in this to seek some sort of intervention for him. But in regards to those who do suffer from a mental illness or mental disorder with proper routine treatments and prescribed medications and routine blood work they can manage their symptoms.

But I do refer to this article/interview

http://www.thomhartmann.com/bigpicture/trump-couch-wdr-justin-frank-md

[LenaBaby61]

45. He is mentally ill AND a bad person.

[Alice11111]

52. He is both, clearly

That is not to say that all mentally ill people are mean or have other negative characteristics of DT. As the psychiatrist said last week, when commenting on trump, dont insult the mentally ill.
I find it revolting to even type his name.

[yuiyoshida]

64. This

[Egnever]

71. .

[TrekLuver]

2. I agree..he's not mentally ill but I wouldn't rule out a personality disorder.

[NoGoodNamesLeft]

16. Personality disorders ARE mental illnesses

There is absolutely NO shame or stigmatizing in pointing out that someone who is a diabolical asshole also happens to have a personality disorder which IS a mental illness. What IS stigmatizing is implying that the millions of innocent and good people who happen to have personality disorders have character defects when they have a mental illness. I have worked with people who have personality disorders and I assure you that they most definitely have mental illnesses.

[TrekLuver]

30. Ok I like this...yes he has a mental illness with a character defect and this shit show is the end

product. As we see it is NOT a good combination. I'm using this from now on thanks.

[tblue37]

26. I also think he is in the early stages of dementia. nt

[JenniferJuniper]

4. Sorry, but you can be both mentally ill and an evil person

It happens

[Squinch]

5. yeah, well... he's mentally ill AND a bad person.

[ginnyinWI]

6. Can we say "emotionally disturbed"? n/t

[Comatose Sphagetti]

7. Mentally ill. Without question.

I was a Behavioral Health Professional a few years back. I know of which I speak.

His supporters are mentally ill, also. And I mean that.

[MFM008]

68. and I agree.

[Kilgore]

8. Donald Trump Isnt Mentally Ill. Hes Just Unpleasant, Psychiatrist Says

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/donald-trump-isn-t-mentally-ill-he-s-just-unpleasant-n721766

Most amateur diagnosticians have mislabeled President Trump with the diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. I wrote the criteria that define this disorder, and Mr. Trump doesn't meet them," Frances wrote in a letter to the New York Times.

Frances chaired the team that defined psychiatric disorders for the mental health profession — the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV (called DSM 4). The DSM V or 5 is the most recent edition.

"He may be a world-class narcissist, but this doesn't make him mentally ill, because he does not suffer from the distress and impairment required to diagnose mental disorder," Frances wrote.

A personality disorder must lead to "clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning," the DSM IV says.

"Mr. Trump causes severe distress rather than experiencing it and has been richly rewarded, rather than punished, for his grandiosity, self-absorption and lack of empathy," Frances wrote.

"It is a stigmatizing insult to the mentally ill (who are mostly well behaved and well meaning) to be lumped with Mr. Trump (who is neither)."

[Demit]

11. If it's wrong to diagnose someone as mentally ill from afar, then it's just as wrong to

unequivocally state that the person isn't, or so it seems to me.

[loyalsister]

22. Not mentally ill is the default and does not need to be proven

The burden of proof is on someone who wants to make a diagnosis. No clinical interpersonal access- no diagnosis.

[Demit]

31. That's what I'm saying. Dr Frances is saying Trump doesn't meet his criteria for

narcissistic personality disorder and therefore doesn't have it. The doctor is saying categorically that Trump doesn't have NPD. That's a diagnosis from afar.

[loyalsister]

34. The Dr. is saying it is not legitimate to make the claim

Just as it would not be legitimate for any one of us to make the claim about another.

[Demit]

39. The Dr said "I wrote the criteria that define this disorder, and Mr. Trump doesn't meet them."

That is a very clear pronouncement. He's never met Trump, never personally interviewed him for any length of time, but makes the claim anyway. I guess he feels exempt from the rule he thinks only others should follow.

[loyalsister]

17. Exactly

He has lived a life few have seen up close.
His business failures came without consequences. He declared bankruptcy and talks about it as if it were strategy. He's have numerous marriages, but it's hard to imagine that he ever perceived any of them as his failure.
He put himself in a role that is heavily criticized and he can't avoid responsibility. That he is not prepared is a product of living in a world of his own self centered making. He was not socially, intellectually, or mentally prepared. That is not illness. Few people are well suited for the lifestyle and work required of a president. He is particularly unsuited for the job. But still not mentally ill.

[NoGoodNamesLeft]

21. And he's full of shit up to his eyebrows

Trump does meet the diagnostic criteria of Narcissistic Personality Disorder and it's plain as day to anyone who has ever worked with or known someone with the illness. He is only saying that because he has been convinced that pointing out the obvious causes emotional distress to other people who have mental illnesses. He thinks he's being helpful but he's not. Anyone who has spent any time working in the field of criminal or forensic psychology or with that population knows this.

Trump IS mentally ill. Most people who are mentally ill are good people. Trump happens to also be a diabolical asshole. These two things are unrelated. It is IMPORTANT to acknowledge his mental illness because that is what will help get him the fuck out of power.

[Amaryllis]

43. I think he DOES suffer from distress. He is clearly distressed when he tweets.

Plus anyone as thin skinned and defensive as he is has serious self-esteem issues.
And he certainly is "impaired socially and occupationally and in other important areas of functioning". His last presser demonstrated all kinds of impairment.
There have been a number of other mental health professionals who have come out with statements that he is seriously mentally ill.

[lame54]

83. He sees things that are clearly not there

[NoGoodNamesLeft]

13. Trump is an evil person who also happens to be mentally ill

He's not evil just because he is mentally ill. He is evil because he has never been held accountable or made to take responsibility for his shit behavior. Pointing out his mental illness is IMPORTANT because his illness is serious enough to disqualify him as president. Serial killers are both evil and mentally ill. So are sex offenders. Since all people with mental illness are not serial killers or sex offenders it should not be difficult for people to be able to separate the two things.

[bdamomma]

55. My question

would him being "unfit for the office" warrant dismissal from the office??

[billh58]

14. Trump is a

sociopath, which is basically a "bad person" and is also a form of mental illness. An asshole by any other name...

so·ci·o·path.

NOUN

a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

[Ilsa]

15. I think he's a dreadful, bad person probably with a personality disorder. NT

[bdamomma]

57. I just said the same thing to myself

he is suffering from a Personality Disorder, does he show manic symptoms too?

[NightWatcher]

18. Asshole, Dipshit, and Fuckwad are not in the DSM 5!!!

[MFM008]

69. they sure should be

...............

[pat_k]

74. But Antisocial Personality Disorder is.

And I think it is pretty clear that DT meets the criteria.

He's definitely extremely high on the psychopathy scale.

And psychopaths are capable are doing the sort of harm that can only be characterized as evil.

Being a psychopath does not let him off the hook for his conduct in any way.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

25. The Author of This New York Times Op-Ed Agrees.

Is It Time to Call Trump Mentally Ill?

[CanonRay]

27. He's a bad person who also has severe mental problems

[doc03]

32. I truly believe he is mentally ill and he is also a bad person nt

[Laffy Kat]

35. It is possible to be both, ya know. nt

[Worktodo]

36. No cure for stupid

Could also be nicer. Sad!

[Doreen]

44. I will make it simple to understand from what I see.

I have known mentally ill people of different mental illnesses most likely I have met all of those illnesses. I have seen a lot of them with the same issues that Trump does have but non of them are hateful like he is. It is possible to have a mental illness and be a bad and evil person at the same time. His hate does not come from mental illness but his behavior does. Yes, he is narcissistic but his concern for himself also goes into him just being a bad person.

[Warren DeMontague]

47. He could be both.

He doesn't seem to have much of a grasp on reality. He has no sense of what is socially appropriate for what context; witness his rant about Arnold Schwarzenegger at the National Prayer Breakfast. That's not just "a bad person", that's someone missing some important self-awareness wiring.

[Stellar]

48. He NUTS and drunk at the same time. Case closed!

[lynintenn]

50. He is mentally unstable and unpredictable

In other words he is a nut case .

[Pachamama]

51. I think he is both - he has a dark soul and is mentally ill

[NCTraveler]

53. I believe he is mentally ill and a bad person.

I make no correlation between the two when making that statement.

Your subject line is a falicious argument.

[HopeAgain]

54. I think it is irrelevant.

We, and frankly the press, need to understand that its time to stop raving about what a raving lunatic he is and fight the damage that is being done. McConnell as much as said he has a flawed personality but "likes what he is doing."

They want us to fiddle with his hate of the press and tweets while they burn everything down. Honestly, were taking to much of this personally and the resentment only haunts us, not Trump. He thrives on this.

[kennetha]

56. Trump is an asshole, evil, etc, AND MENTALLY ILL

No confusion at all.

[liberal N proud]

59. He is raving mad

Mad as insane!

[oldcynic]

60. Oh, good.

excellent point. We do the same with white christian terrorists: such lone wolves must be insane.

[trof]

62. Stop telling me what to say.

Do I tell you what to say?
No.

[yuiyoshida]

65. You're not the boss of me now...

[Hekate]

66. The two states of being are not mutually exclusive. He is both evil & perhaps sliding into dementia

[qdouble]

70. I suppose there's a possibility that he's acting...

But you can't say that people can look at his behavior and not see signs of mental illness. Saying that it's not definitive, does not mean you can say he's not mentally ill.

[pat_k]

72. Psychopaths are not generally a nice bunch

I have no problem labeling DT a psychopath because I think it's clear that he would score extremely high on the psychopathy scale. I believe it is also clear that he meets the diagnosis for Antisocial Personality Disorder.

I am not confusing mental illness with evil. I don't think labeling him a psychopath unfairly maligns psychopaths. And being a psychopath doesn't get him off the hook or make his conduct any less evil.

There are those who view psychopaths as people with a disorder, rather than evil. http://www.bbc.com/news/health-15386740

I'm not one of them.

I'm all for developing treatments and early interventions. If successful, I'd be thrilled to have a little less evil in the world.

[pressbox69]

75. I don't know if he's bad

but he probably leaves a bad taste in Lucifer's mouth.

[C Moon]

76. Cheers to that loyalsister!

[VOX]

77. There is nothing "normal" or "average" about his behavior.

Do I think he's mentally ill? Absolutely.
Do I think he's a bad person? Absolutely.
Is it possible to be both? Again, absolutely.

Donald Trump exhibits clear signs of mental illness, they are there for all to see. Clearly, his behaviors do not allow him to conduct the affairs of state in an undiminished capacity. (And this man has the power to issue orders for an immediate unilateral nuclear strike with long-range ballistic missiles.)

Trump's delusions manifest in cruel, aggressive ways, which is not healthy or safe for the country's well-being. We, the citizenry, are at grave risk while he holds the most influental post in the world.

[Soxfan58]

78. Maybe he's just a huge ASSHOLE

[Sancho]

79. People suspected Reagan had dementia while he was in office...

but the public was never allowed to see a diagnosis. Likely, many Presidents have hidden medical problems.

In this case, there may be a diagnosis in Trump's records, but no one has really seen a health history; just like his tax returns.

To lots of professionals he shows characteristics of personality disorder, but also characteristics of some kind of reading or processing disorder like a learning disability. He has strange and ritualistic gestures, repeats phrases, uses very unusual syntax, and doesn't read out loud.

With his money and protected life style, he seems to have depended on family and staff to compensate for obvious issues. Most concerning are the delusions where he seems to believe misinformation or repeats fabrications. It's hard to conclude that he is only a showman (to me), because he sometimes repeats information that would have no rational use for supporters or his goals except that he simply believes (at that moment) something that is simply incorrect. He has learned to use lies to gain advantage. He probably is a serial sexual predator who has gotten away with it because of his status. That's not really so unusual.

I actually think he probably has average ability (intelligence) or slightly above average, but likely has some diagnosable deficits. It's hard to say without testing. He is certainly not intelligent like Bill Clinton; because he doesn't seem to make intellectual connections or use vocabulary typical of high ability. He takes on emotional, adversarial connections to shock or take advantage, but not really new insights.

He also seems to have bits of paranoia, egocentricism, and meanness that may be narcissism, but seem more deeply rooted. He may have underlying physical problems that are not public related to his age, weight, etc.

His coping mechanisms seem to be coming out - he runs away from Washington to places he is comfortable, creates a false crowd to get support, and demands loyalty. He is clearly indifferent (lacks empathy) even for family. I'm guessing it will be harder and harder for Trump to keep up the job with his current strategy; and equally hard for the family and close handlers to maintain their support. Sooner or later he may have a public tantrum or some internal crisis will cause Trump to disappear or something really bizarre will surface.

We'll see what happens, but I'm hoping he won't make it 4 years. Likely the GOP leadership is hoping too.

[Vinca]

80. Trump is both: mentally ill and bad.

[lame54]

81. Fuck that - He's Crazy!

[JohnnyLib2]

84. Jerk, goof, oddball, pain in the ass--

weirdo, troubled etc. etc. The use of psychiatric terms is a dead end IMO, leading nowhere.

Thanks for this OP. K & R