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butdiduvote

(284 posts)
Sun Mar 5, 2017, 02:49 PM Mar 2017

Is colluding with Russia to influence the election necessarily illegal/impeachable?

Obviously working with Russia to straight up rig the voting machines would be, but say it is proven that Trump worked with them to put out propaganda to influence voters' minds. Would that alone automatically do him in? Or is there a case to be made that, while slimey, it's not illegal?

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Is colluding with Russia to influence the election necessarily illegal/impeachable? (Original Post) butdiduvote Mar 2017 OP
Hacking the DNC was a crime so yes, working with those who committed that crime KittyWampus Mar 2017 #1
Hacking emails is a felony I believe. aikoaiko Mar 2017 #2
It's treason. kentuck Mar 2017 #3
I wish. butdiduvote Mar 2017 #4
it was an act of war. kentuck Mar 2017 #5
So why do we still have diplomatic relations with Russia? onenote Mar 2017 #19
Maybe the Logan Act djg21 Mar 2017 #14
It really doesn't matter if our democracy is destroyed by a bomb or by a computer. kentuck Mar 2017 #18
Putting aside the gross irregularity of it... Salviati Mar 2017 #6
This looks like the best answer. LAS14 Mar 2017 #8
But it gets a lot more complicated if they made promises to help Russia keep the Ukraine.... bettyellen Mar 2017 #11
Or-Putin, help influence our election Mendocino Mar 2017 #16
Likely both. He must be removed from office. bettyellen Mar 2017 #21
Impeachment is a political act. DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2017 #7
That's interesting. Can one be impeached simply on the opinion... LAS14 Mar 2017 #9
Technically Congress can do anything they want. DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2017 #10
It is if we have a functioning justice system .. ananda Mar 2017 #12
All hell, if they had a photo of BHO Cosmocat Mar 2017 #13
WTF? spanone Mar 2017 #15
you're right. Republicans will say no, not an impeachable offense. Kablooie Mar 2017 #17
I recall, during Clinton's impeachment Solly Mack Mar 2017 #20
 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
1. Hacking the DNC was a crime so yes, working with those who committed that crime
Sun Mar 5, 2017, 02:58 PM
Mar 2017

and coordinating things with them in the use of stolen data is criminal.

aikoaiko

(34,193 posts)
2. Hacking emails is a felony I believe.
Sun Mar 5, 2017, 02:59 PM
Mar 2017

And if Trump conspires with them then that's a conspiracy to commit a felony.


I'm not a lawyer.

onenote

(43,299 posts)
19. So why do we still have diplomatic relations with Russia?
Sun Mar 5, 2017, 03:48 PM
Mar 2017

Why do we still have bilateral trade with Russia. Why do we allow tens of thousands of Americans to visit Russia (and thousands of Russians to visit the US)?

Are we at war with the Chinese (who also have engaged in cyberattacks on US interests)? How does this war end? With peace treaty? With unconditional surrender? What is our response? Do we use force to overthrow Putin? Should the NATO allies be required to come to our mutual defense? Have you written to your Senator demanding that they introduce a declaration of war against Russia?

Maybe one day the rules of war will account for "cyberwar". But for now, the law is as it was.Under title 50 of the US Code (War and National Defense): Section 2204: "the term "enemy" means any country, government, group, or person that has been engaged in hostilities, whether or not lawfully authorized, with the United States."
The term "hostilities", as defined in title 10 (Armed Forces). Section 948a - "The term 'hostilities' means any conflict subject to the laws of war."


 

djg21

(1,803 posts)
14. Maybe the Logan Act
Sun Mar 5, 2017, 03:24 PM
Mar 2017

It's likely neither treason nor espionage, but it might fall under the Logan Act:

18 U.S.C. § 953. Private correspondence with foreign governments.

Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply himself, or his agent, to any foreign government, or the agents thereof, for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects.

There's a decent history of the Act here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act

kentuck

(111,270 posts)
18. It really doesn't matter if our democracy is destroyed by a bomb or by a computer.
Sun Mar 5, 2017, 03:44 PM
Mar 2017

If the intent is the same, it is a war.

Salviati

(6,012 posts)
6. Putting aside the gross irregularity of it...
Sun Mar 5, 2017, 03:07 PM
Mar 2017

and trying to treat it as a normal campaign procedure, wouldn't it qualify as at least an in kind campaign contribution, which are illegal from foreigners, which recall, trump didn't shy away from:

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/288031-trump-campaign-solicits-illegal-foreign-donations-despite-warnings

Mendocino

(7,566 posts)
16. Or-Putin, help influence our election
Sun Mar 5, 2017, 03:43 PM
Mar 2017

assuring a republican victory, which in turn the sanctions will be lifted by the winning side. This also allows US interests unfettered access to Russian markets and resources, lots of $$$ to be made by both sides, a win-win.

LAS14

(13,876 posts)
9. That's interesting. Can one be impeached simply on the opinion...
Sun Mar 5, 2017, 03:09 PM
Mar 2017

... of congress? Even if there's no foundation in the constitution or laws?

Kablooie

(18,674 posts)
17. you're right. Republicans will say no, not an impeachable offense.
Sun Mar 5, 2017, 03:44 PM
Mar 2017

McConnell and Ryan will say it's a slap on the hand offense and move on.

If it helps Republicans to ignore the law they will do so.



Solly Mack

(90,912 posts)
20. I recall, during Clinton's impeachment
Sun Mar 5, 2017, 03:49 PM
Mar 2017

that high crimes and misdemeanors can include attacks on the apparatus/workings/infrastructure of the state, such as elections - which is definitely part of a (nation) state's workings.

So accepting, encouraging, benefiting from foreign influence to alter an election result would fall under high crimes and misdemeanors. Especially since it was the opponent being attacked by the foreign influence, and that other attacks by the same foreign power favored a single party.

If the evidence comes out after an election of the collusion with a foreign power to direct an election outcome, then there are grounds for impeachment.

The question then becomes, will the GOP act on the evidence.

Probably not. Unless public pressure is so great that they fear for their own office. Or the evidence is so overwhelming they look guilty by not acting. Trump becomes a liability to them.


Other areas:

The charge of high crimes and misdemeanors covers allegations of misconduct peculiar to officials, such as perjury of oath, abuse of authority, bribery, intimidation, misuse of assets, failure to supervise, dereliction of duty, conduct unbecoming, and refusal to obey a lawful order


Any number of which currently apply to Trump.
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